Post/Author/DateTime	Post
King Kashue 05-03-07, 04:02 AM	This build is pretty satisfactory to me, but I want to put it out there to see if I'm missing things, or if there are other options. I've got a few "eh, best thing left" feats, so there are likely other directions to go. First two levels are already taken, so they're not changeable. Also, I have access to the Destiny feats (from Races of...) and am planning to take Heroic (a prereq) as well as Fearless (which is tasty)... Str 16 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 12 Cha 8 (All levels Fighter) 1 - Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus (Heavy Flail), Improved Disarm 2 - Improved Trip 3 - Heroic Destiny 4 - Power Attack 5 - 6 - Fearless Destiny, Weapon Spec. (Heavy Flail) 7 - 8 - Melee Weapon Mastery (Bludgeoning) 9 - Greater Weapon Focus (Heavy Flail) 10 - Combat Intuition 11 - 12- Greater Weapon Spec. (Heavy Flail), Improved Toughness 13 - 14 - Improved Critical (Heavy Flail) 15 - Iron Will At 10th level, I'm at +20 to hit (counting Combat Intuition), and +10 to damage, (before power attack), and both of those are without any Str boost item. Throw a Belt +4 on there and I'm +22 to hit and +13 to damage, which is pretty nice for level 10... As I said, level 1 & 2 are set, the Destiny feats are going to stay, and certain things are easy choices (focus/spec/mastery) Anything I'm missing? Other ideas?
Jesse Heinig 05-03-07, 04:29 AM	Out of curiosity, how does Imp. Toughness compare vs. armor specialization? Imp. Toughness is +12 hp at the level you get it; the armor spec. would give you DR 2/- and knock off some damage, so both of them are effectively giving you a little more HP breathing room. I suppose Imp. Toughness gives you HP against things that DR doesn't protect, but the DR might spread out more when you're fighting mooks. Eh, not going to get into rigorous analysis this late at night . . .
King Kashue 05-03-07, 04:45 AM	That's a workable idea... I could plan for that slot as "Imp Toughness/Armor Spec" and if I can somehow work out Adamantine armor by then go with Imp Toughness, and if not, take the Armor spec...
Sieylianna 05-03-07, 07:43 AM	I'd swap weapon specialization and power attack. Two extra points of damage every time you hit is going to add up. Ed
King Kashue 05-03-07, 01:43 PM	I'd swap weapon specialization and power attack. Two extra points of damage every time you hit is going to add up. Ed Good idea. I'm not likely to be using much more PA than that anyhoo... Honestly, power attack is great, but statistically, the times you use more than 1-3 points are so rare (at least if you want statistically optimal results)... With this character, he's intelligent, so I'll use my PA optimally. With my Bear Warrior (int 6), I just use whatever number makes my damage math come out even :D (I try to reflect intelligence in tactics)...
Mommy was an Orc 05-03-07, 02:51 PM	Have you looked at the combat focus feats from PHB II? You've almost got the Wisdom for them and Combat Stability means if you lose the check, you're a lot harder to disarm/trip in return. And Combat Vigor is very competitive with DR. If you drop Str by 1, you can make that happen. It also means you'll have a pretty strong Will Save, too. I'd also look at Quickdraw. If you had a couple of levels of Monk or a level of Swashbuckler, I'd say look at Combat Acrobat.
King Kashue 05-03-07, 03:05 PM	Have you looked at the combat focus feats from PHB II? You've almost got the Wisdom for them and Combat Stability means if you lose the check, you're a lot harder to disarm/trip in return. And Combat Vigor is very competitive with DR. If you drop Str by 1, you can make that happen. It also means you'll have a pretty strong Will Save, too. Yeah, I really wanted to work them in, but they're very much a package deal, since they scale with the number of feats. Which means I'd need to drop three or four feats there, and I can't find four that I consider less valuable... I'd also look at Quickdraw. To what end? If you had a couple of levels of Monk or a level of Swashbuckler, I'd say look at Combat Acrobat. Nope, Fighter 15 with this one :D
Mommy was an Orc 05-03-07, 03:21 PM	Yeah, I really wanted to work them in, but they're very much a package deal, since they scale with the number of feats. Which means I'd need to drop three or four feats there, and I can't find four that I consider less valuable... Iron Will, Greater Weapon Specialization, Combat Intuition, Improved Toughness all strike me as being 'hmm, kind of okay, not sure what else to put in there' Combat Focus gives you +4 to Will Saves(nearly double the value of Iron Will), Combat Vigor heals you at 4 hp per round - gives you back the value of Improved Toughness essentially once per combat, and Combat Stability gives you +8 vs Trips/disarms/grapples/bullrushes - allowing you a lot more leeway when you go for a Trip/Disarm at higher levels. Either Improved Trip or Disarm could be retrained as well if you're not going to support them with additional feats. (Quickdraw) To what end? The problem I see with your build at the moment is that you've got a pretty heavy focus on trip/disarming your opponents - trip/disarm weapon, 2 feats spent on it, that at high levels are going to fall by the wayside to a certain degree - simply because you can't afford to drop your weapon. Quickdraw is nice, because you start off the combat with say a Guisarme. As soon as you manage to close on a target or someone forces you to drop the Guisarme, you whip out your primary Flail. It pretty much can't hurt you, but it may force opponents to make tactical mistakes based on what they think you are. i.e. you look like someone who might have Combat Reflexes/Improved Trip.
Jesse Heinig 05-03-07, 03:21 PM	Vis-a-vis the ordering of Weapon Spec. vs. Power Attack, since it's a two-handed weapon, you gain +2 damage for a -1 on the attack roll. Just Power Attack for at least 1 point every time and the character gains all the benefits of Weapon Specialization - with the ability to "choke up" and do more damage against opponents who have a bad AC, such as someone you've tripped.
King Kashue 05-03-07, 03:33 PM	Iron Will, Greater Weapon Specialization, Combat Intuition, Improved Toughness all strike me as being 'hmm, kind of okay, not sure what else to put in there' Combat Focus gives you +4 to Will Saves(nearly double the value of Iron Will), Combat Vigor heals you at 4 hp per round - gives you back the value of Improved Toughness essentially once per combat, and Combat Stability gives you +8 vs Trips/disarms/grapples/bullrushes - allowing you a lot more leeway when you go for a Trip/Disarm at higher levels. Combat intuition is +1 to hit and Greater Weapon spec is another +2 to damage. The math is simple, if you want the spreadsheets, I'll give them to you, but those feats are worth it. Iron Will and Imp Toughness though, those could be moved out, I'll have to look at that...Combat focus in place of Iron will is perfectly logical anyhoo (except for the rare will saves prior to my first hit :(), So I'd likely do that, and given that, the other feats make more sense... I'll see how that looks... Either Improved Trip or Disarm could be retrained as well if you're not going to support them with additional feats. Well, disarm doesn't really have any additional compliments. But retraining could be a good idea, since those feats become less important at higher levels any way The problem I see with your build at the moment is that you've got a pretty heavy focus on trip/disarming your opponents - trip/disarm weapon, 2 feats spent on it, that at high levels are going to fall by the wayside to a certain degree - simply because you can't afford to drop your weapon. Well, since two feats are what's necessary, I'm not sure I'd call it a "heavy focus", since you can't do it for less, and it's only two out of fifteen feats. The focus is actually just beating the tar out of stuff with some tactical tricks if the opportunity presents itself. With a +4 str item, haste, and one other buff (bless/prayer/recetation/bard song) this is a 10th level character with +25 to hit and +16 or so to damage (in a normal two buff fight). That's well above the curve damage wise, and the tricks on the side are just gravy... As for dropping my weapon, Disarm doesn't suffer, since they don't get a chance to try it back if I fail. Trip does suffer though. But I don't think it's enough of an issue to spend on Quickdraw.
King Kashue 05-03-07, 03:35 PM	Vis-a-vis the ordering of Weapon Spec. vs. Power Attack, since it's a two-handed weapon, you gain +2 damage for a -1 on the attack roll. Just Power Attack for at least 1 point every time and the character gains all the benefits of Weapon Specialization - with the ability to "choke up" and do more damage against opponents who have a bad AC, such as someone you've tripped. It's only a matter of waiting two more levels to get power attack. And honestly, the +1 to hit is worth waiting two levels. As I said, the math on power attack means that unless it's got an animal AC (i.e., in the mid-low teens) it doesn't makes sense to Power attack for more than 1-3 points. And the more standard damage bonus you have (from Str, Spec, etc.) the less valuable Power attack becomes. That's especially true when you have iteratives, but even when you've only got one attack per round.
Mommy was an Orc 05-03-07, 04:11 PM	Combat Intuition/Greater Weapon Specialization add to damage, sure. That's not worth that much, particularly GWS. At high level, you fail a Trip and lose your primary weapon, you're in deep trouble. Where Combat Stability means that if you fail a Trip, you're +12 on your roll to keep your weapon instead of +4. That's huge. Not to mention, the +8 against Grapple checks will likely save you once or twice. Combat intuition is +1 to hit and Greater Weapon spec is another +2 to damage. The math is simple, if you want the spreadsheets, I'll give them to you, but those feats are worth it. Well, since two feats are what's necessary, I'm not sure I'd call it a "heavy focus", since you can't do it for less, and it's only two out of fifteen feats. As for dropping my weapon, Disarm doesn't suffer, since they don't get a chance to try it back if I fail. Trip does suffer though. But I don't think it's enough of an issue to spend on Quickdraw. You're spending feats that you likely won't get to use a lot at high level - you should either retrain them out or support them with additional feats.
King Kashue 05-03-07, 04:32 PM	Combat Intuition/Greater Weapon Specialization add to damage, sure. That's not worth that much, particularly GWS. At high level, you fail a Trip and lose your primary weapon, you're in deep trouble. As I said, I'm not necessarily going to be tripping a ton. It's there as an option, not as a primary tactic. This is not a spiked cheese fighter, it's a basher with options. Half the stuff you see at that level is too big to trip anyhoo and at level 10, I'm going to be swinging at +20 with 1d10+25 damage....I'll trip in situations where it's safe, I'll pound where it isn't. And seriously, no offense, but people who don't think a guaranteed +2 to damage is much haven't worked the math. From a statistical point of view, guaranteed damage is quite significant, especially at higher ACs...(coincidentally, these are also the same people who think big power attacking is statistically sound, when it's most certainly not) Where Combat Stability means that if you fail a Trip, you're +12 on your roll to keep your weapon instead of +4. That's huge. Not to mention, the +8 against Grapple checks will likely save you once or twice. Yeah, the combat focus feats are nice. I still need to work them in, if I can. You're spending feats that you likely won't get to use a lot at high level - you should either retrain them out or support them with additional feats. I'm spending one feat, improved trip. I am at zero risk when I disarm. It's not a huge expenditure even if I don't support it, though as I said, I really am going to try to...
Mommy was an Orc 05-03-07, 04:49 PM	And seriously, no offense, but people who don't think a guaranteed +2 to damage is much haven't worked the math. From a statistical point of view, guaranteed damage is quite significant, especially at higher ACs...(coincidentally, these are also the same people who think big power attacking is statistically sound, when it's most certainly not) You do 1d10+13+1(magic)+2d6(say) at 10th level. That probably goes up to 1d10+13+3(GMW)+3d6 at 12th. You're averaging 32 points of damage before Power Attack - +2 damage will typically represent a bonus of 6% to damage under most conditions against high AC opponents. In situations where 5 points of Power Attack is appropriate - you've got a Bard 10 who has Inspire Courage'd +4 to hit/+2 damage and Inspire Greatness'd +2/2 you, you now do 48 damage on average, where an additional +2 drops to a mere 4% extra damage. Those values aren't worth a feat. I play a Bard as my primary - I'm quite good with all the math involved :)
King Kashue 05-03-07, 05:20 PM	Those values aren't worth a feat. 6% vs. what? That's the question. 6% more damage vs. having a +4/8 when I fail at an occasional tactic? 6% more damage vs. what other feats? Feat value is relative, not absolute. Weapon focus is 5% to hit, which means a little more than 5% to total average damage. Would you say that's not worth it? If not, then why is 6%? In ideal hypotheticals ("in situations where 5 points of power attack is appropriate"? Those situations are few and far between), sure one feat can be clearly better. Weapon Spec is a feat that works every single time I connect. It's guaranteed damage. It doesn't require conditions, it doesn't require certain things to happen, it doesn't require anything other than a successful attack roll. I don't care if another feat is twice as good if I only use it a third as much...
Mommy was an Orc 05-03-07, 06:19 PM	Feat value is relative, not absolute. Weapon focus is 5% to hit, which means a little more than 5% to total average damage. Would you say that's not worth it? If not, then why is 6%? Except that's wrong. A +1 to hit typically averages somewhere between +8% to +12% damage. That's why doing Power Attack for high values is such a waste if you do a lot of damage. And why WF is significantly more valuable than WS. Especially as you get higher and higher in level.
Fronch 05-03-07, 06:25 PM	Barbarian 1 is the best fighter feat. There's no reason not to rage if you want to be an effective fighter.
King Kashue 05-03-07, 06:47 PM	Except that's wrong. A +1 to hit typically averages somewhere between +8% to +12% damage. Well no, it really doesn't, because it's a range from 0-100, so "typically averages" is a right bit of nonsense... It makes you 5% more likely to hit...The range of what that translates to goes from a 0% if you're already hitting on a 2 (Which I'm including, and which must be included), to a 100% increase in damage if you're hitting on a 20 (but not "autohitting")... It doesn't hit 10 percent until you're in the bottom half of the range, which most primary fighters don't see unless it's with their iterative. For most of the normal range it's between 6-8% (And weapon spec is 7% if I'm doing 30 per hit and going to 32). Even with two iteratives, it's roughly 8% vs. still 7% for Weapon Spec. You're absolutely right that Weapon focus is better (though you're only half right about higher levels, since it's least effective on the best to hit bonuses, whereas spec doesn't diminish and is only valued on the base damage roll)... But, to bring it back to the issue, the question is not "Weapon Focus v. Weapon Spec.", it's "Weapon Spec v. Some other feat for that level"...
King Kashue 05-03-07, 06:49 PM	Barbarian 1 is the best fighter feat. There's no reason not to rage if you want to be an effective fighter. Salient addition... First two levels are already taken, so they're not changeable. Nope, Fighter 15 with this one :D And the reason not to rage is that I already have several characters capable of doing so, and as stated, have absolutely no desire to go that direction with the character...
Fronch 05-03-07, 06:58 PM	And the reason not to rage is that I already have several characters capable of doing so, and as stated, have absolutely no desire to go that direction with the character...I didn't realize you were married to going straight fighter. As I said, Barb 1 is a no-brainer unless you're making a theme character, which is what you seem to be doing. And I have to agree with the people saying that Power Attack is better than Weapon Specialization. Without Power Attack, you're going to be pretty useless in a lot of situations. There are a lot of times when you're fighting a monster with low AC and lots of hit points and/or DR. The rest of the party can buff up your to-hit bonus, but if you don't have Power Attack, that just makes it more likely for you to hit for ~20. At high APL, being able to hit for 40-50 per swing makes many many many fights much much much easier. Ideally you have the best of all of these: Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec, Power Attack, Melee Weapon Mastery, etc. But you may not have room for all of that with all the wacky tripping and disarming. Edited to add: Upon more carefully reading the thread (skimming FTL!), I see the issue is PA at 4 and Spec at 6 or vice versa. My feeling on that is "meh," since at levels 4-6 you're not power attacking for much anyway. Personally I'd go with PA just because it gives you a bit of flexibility.
ARlife 05-03-07, 09:44 PM	Now I feel compelled to put in my 2 cp. It looks a solid build all around, but you didnt make a thread to hear that so here are my suggestions. If you are willing to retrain a little bit, I would switch either Imp Disarm or Imp Trip, depending on which one you tend to use more. I would replace it with Iron Will. That extra +2 is more useful for the other 99% of your career. The placement of Power Attack and Weapon Specialization if fine. I don't quite see the usefulness of Combat Intuition. I would rather place Imp Toughness there and move Imp Critical to 12th. For 14th and 15th, I think Crushing Strike is pretty solid for 14th. As far as 15th goes? Maybe a luck feat to cap it off? Victor's luck and Good Karma are both good for tough fighters. BTW, I had a grand time playing with you at the interactive at Theocracy. :)
King Kashue 05-03-07, 11:02 PM	I don't quite see the usefulness of Combat Intuition. I would rather place Imp Toughness there and move Imp Critical to 12th. Well, combat intuition is a +1 to hit, so it's essentially another weapon focus, and we already went through the math there (another 6-10% damage depending on Bad guy AC). Imp Critical is always 9% (with either a 19-20x2 wep or a x3 wep). The reason I would go intuition over critical is because intuition allows me further flexibility in power attack (though that might not be sound mathematically). For 14th and 15th, I think Crushing Strike is pretty solid for 14th. I'll have to look harder at crushing strike. If I replaced Combat Intuition with Crushing strike I'd essentially be trading a +1 on my first hit for an extra +1 on my 3rd iterative. That doesn't look like a great trade at first, but assuming haste (or haste like effect), it's trading +1 on my first attack for an extra +1 on my 2nd iterative, and an extra +2 on my 3rd. But that's assuming they all hit, so I'll have to account for that (in a "hitting on 2" situation it's essentially a 95% chance of the +1 on my haste attack, a 67.5% percent of the +2, etc...) BTW, I had a grand time playing with you at the interactive at Theocracy. :) Orange Juice :P
Mommy was an Orc 05-04-07, 12:21 AM	Well no, it really doesn't, because it's a range from 0-100, so "typically averages" is a right bit of nonsense... Actually, it isn't. Typical AC of monsters should average roughly CR+13 according to the Monster Manual. They might not always hit that, but there is a 'typical' average assuming that monsters are reasonably random. As monsters often are APL+3, the average should be APL+16. That's not always true, but there is a band around that area assuming that the triad/circle is sufficiently random in monster choice. Claiming you can't figure out any average is unreasonable. It makes you 5% more likely to hit...The range of what that translates to goes from a 0% if you're already hitting on a 2 (Which I'm including, and which must be included), to a 100% increase in damage if you're hitting on a 20 (but not "autohitting")... It doesn't hit 10 percent until you're in the bottom half of the range, which most primary fighters don't see unless it's with their iterative. For most of the normal range it's between 6-8% (And weapon spec is 7% if I'm doing 30 per hit and going to 32). That's not actually true. If you hit on a 6/6/11/16, you should typically hit 2.25 hits per round. You hit instead on a 5/5/10/15, you then hit 2.45. That's 9% right there.
King Kashue 05-04-07, 01:12 AM	Actually, it isn't. Typical AC of monsters should average roughly CR+13 according to the Monster Manual. They might not always hit that, but there is a 'typical' average assuming that monsters are reasonably random. As monsters often are APL+3, the average should be APL+16. That's not always true, but there is a band around that area assuming that the triad/circle is sufficiently random in monster choice. Claiming you can't figure out any average is unreasonable. In just the past few weeks I've fought stuff that I couldn't power attack enough to drop to a "miss on 2" situation, and I fought stuff that I needed a 15 or better to hit with my primary. Sure, you can figure out an "average creature AC", but the standard deviation is going to be so big that it's not worth the time (or at least, not worth my time)... That's not actually true. If you hit on a 6/6/11/16, you should typically hit 2.25 hits per round. You hit instead on a 5/5/10/15, you then hit 2.45. That's 9% right there. But going with your APL+16 formula, I'm hitting on 3/3/8/13 and going to 2/2/7/12, and for that it's a 7% increase. +6 is the first point at which it goes above 8%, and by your formula, that's outside "average range"... Anyhoo, once again, the question is not Wep Focus v. Wep Spec., never has been. Though you've provided a darn good argument not to drop combat intuition. :D
Fronch 05-04-07, 09:49 AM	I'm not sure it's useful to refer to going from "only hitting on 20" to "hitting on 19-20" as a "100% increase in damage." While that's technically true, it obscures the fact that you're going from "not much" to "not much." I agree that monster AC varies wildly from encounter to encounter, and the magic power attack number to maximize your expected damage depends not only on the AC and your to-hit bonus, but also your base damage. (Basically, if you already hit like a truck without power attacking, you don't want to reduce your chance to hit too much.) The question seems to be the relative value of +1 to hit. In my opinion, if you have power attack, you can never have too much to-hit bonus. Every point you can get is golden.