Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mommy was an Orc 01-15-07, 11:58 AM	Human Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 8 1: Barbarian 1: Combat Reflexes, Power Attack 2: Fighter 1: Dodge 3: Fighter 2: Combat Expertise, Karmic Strike 4: Fighter 3 5: Fighter 4: Mobility 6: Fighter 5: Elusive Target 7: Fighter 6: Improved Bullrush 8: Fighter 7 9: Fighter 8: Shock Trooper, Extra Rage 10: Fighter 9 11: Fighter 10: Improved Sunder 12: Fighter 11: Combat Brute 13: Fighter 12: Improved Trip 14: Fighter 13 15: Fighter 14: Improved Unarmed Strike, Defensive Throw How's that for a build which actually needs Fighter 14 in it and doesn't even have feats for WF, let alone WS, GWF, or GWS...I suppose I could have thrown in Monk 2 at level 1-2, then switched to Fighter and Barbarian levels for an extra feat, but that then delays Elusive Target til 9th and isn't Fighter 14 - people will look at the 2 Monk levels -> Barbarian and roll their eyes instead of going 'wow, you actually managed to need those Fighter levels...' I know it seems like a while to wait for Extra Rage, but unfortunately, Elusive Target, Karmic Strike and it are all general feats and can't use Fighter bonus feats to get it.
UMiskatonic 01-15-07, 01:11 PM	Nice build. Very nice. It occurs to me that you could switch power attack and dodge. I -might- prefer +1 AC at first level over power attacking for +2 damage. Shouldn't matter much overall.
Mommy was an Orc 01-15-07, 01:32 PM	Thanks. Here's the evil Monk version for reference... Human Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 8 1: Monk 1: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Power Attack, Dodge 2: Monk 2: Combat Reflexes 3: Barbarian 1: Extra Rage 4: Fighter 1: Combat Expertise 5: Fighter 2: Improved Bullrush 6: Fighter 3: Karmic Strike 7: Fighter 4: Shock Trooper 8: Fighter 5 9: Fighter 6: Mobility, Elusive Target 10: Fighter 7 11: Fighter 8: Improved Trip 12: Fighter 9: Defensive Throw 13: Fighter 10: Close Quarter Combat 14: Fighter 11 15: Fighter 12: Improved Sunder, Combat Brute
bhale187 01-15-07, 01:49 PM	OH MY, that is an evil monkish build.
jstorrie 01-15-07, 04:22 PM	I like this. Very versatile! Were I to run it I might switch the feats up a bit, though - 1: Barbarian 1: Combat Reflexes, Power Attack 2: Fighter 1: Combat Expertise 3: Fighter 2: Improved Trip, Karmic Strike 4: Fighter 3 5: Fighter 4: Dodge 6: Fighter 5: Extra Rage 7: Fighter 6: Improved Bullrush 8: Fighter 7 9: Fighter 8: Shock Trooper, Mobility 10: Fighter 9 11: Fighter 10: Improved Sunder 12: Fighter 11: Elusive Target 13: Fighter 12: Combat Brute 14: Fighter 13 15: Fighter 14: Improved Unarmed Strike, Defensive Throw Imp Trip is brooooken at low levels, you know that! Especially with Karmic Strike and Combat Reflexes. Conversely I think Elusive Target is low-power at lower levels, because you're less likely to get heavily Power Attacked at those APLs.
Mommy was an Orc 01-15-07, 05:23 PM	Imp Trip is brooooken at low levels, you know that! Especially with Karmic Strike and Combat Reflexes. Conversely I think Elusive Target is low-power at lower levels, because you're less likely to get heavily Power Attacked at those APLs. The trick with Elusive Target is that you're using it with Karmic Strike. A Barbarian 1/Fighter 7 build who tries to full Power Attack you won't do any real damage to you. That's what's useful about it. The Imp Trip is really just for Defensive Throw.
Drezden 01-15-07, 06:03 PM	If you went first 2 levels Monk, then switched alignments and went Barbarian 1 and then Fighter 12, you would get an extra feat (as Combat Reflexes and Improved Unarmed Strike would come for free), and an additional extra Monk Bonus Feat (improved grapple or stunning fist) and net out +2 to Fort Save and +3 to Reflex and Will. You would be down 4 hps. Daren
clannagh 01-15-07, 06:24 PM	me like
jstorrie 01-15-07, 10:09 PM	If my DMs ramped up the Power Attacks just because I was Karmic Striking, I'd be a little aggravated. How do the NPCs know you're activating Karmic Strike? Do they all have a billion ranks in Profession: Soldier or something?
LachlarlanIII 01-15-07, 10:21 PM	If my DMs ramped up the Power Attacks just because I was Karmic Striking, I'd be a little aggravated. How do the NPCs know you're activating Karmic Strike? Do they all have a billion ranks in Profession: Soldier or something? You visibly open yourself up to attack (-4 AC) in order to make counterattacks (AoO on anything that attacks you).
jstorrie 01-15-07, 11:23 PM	There's nothing in the Karmic Strike feat description that says your lowered AC is in any way visible. If my PC's AC is visible when Karmic Striking, why can't I see when his opponents Power Attack or Combat Expertise?
Mommy was an Orc 01-16-07, 12:25 AM	There's nothing in the Karmic Strike feat description that says your lowered AC is in any way visible. If my PC's AC is visible when Karmic Striking, why can't I see when his opponents Power Attack or Combat Expertise? I generally make it obvious when I DM. It doesn't say when you fight defensively that it is obvious, but the spirit of the rules are pretty clear. And from the standpoint of Karmic Strike, you want people attacking you to take AoOs - if they don't realize you've 'dropped your guard', they won't go after you.
Mommy was an Orc 01-16-07, 12:26 AM	If you went first 2 levels Monk, then switched alignments and went Barbarian 1 and then Fighter 12, you would get an extra feat (as Combat Reflexes and Improved Unarmed Strike would come for free), and an additional extra Monk Bonus Feat (improved grapple or stunning fist) and net out +2 to Fort Save and +3 to Reflex and Will. You would be down 4 hps. Daren Isn't that the evil Monk build two posts after the 1st?
Drezden 01-16-07, 12:46 AM	Isn't that the evil Monk build two posts after the 1st? Ooops, sorry Andy - didn't see that post. OK, well let me give you my tweaks then. :) 1: Monk 1: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Power Attack, Dodge 2: Monk 2: Combat Reflexes 3: Barbarian 1: Extra Rage 4: Fighter 1: Combat Expertise 5: Fighter 2: EWP: Spiked Chain 6: Fighter 3: Cleave 7: Fighter 4: WF: Spiked Chain 8: Fighter 5 9: Fighter 6: Mobility, Elusive Target 10: Exotic Weapon Master 1: Flurry of Blows 11: Barbarian 2: Uncanny Dodge 12: Fighter 7: Close Quarters Fighting 13: Fighter 8: Karmic Strike 14: Fighter 9 15: Fighter 10: Defensive Throw, Quick Draw I kept most of your original feats. But I added the Spiked Chain and the EWM Flurry ability. You end up with 5 attacks a round at 12th level (including Haste). Using a reach weapon enhances many of the feat choices and makes both Cleave and Close Quarter Fighting better. Daren
SgtHulka 01-16-07, 01:07 AM	Very interesting and very tempting to try out. On the Monk version, would there be a significant disadvantage to dropping Intelligence to 12 and buying a +2 Headband of Intellect by level 4 to qualify for Combat Expertise? I'm thinking those two extra build points could go to Wisdom to help saves (and AC if you're ever caught in your long johns) or go to Con or Dexterity to give one odd bump stat. But maybe I'm not thinking of something important that takes up the head slot.
_m_ 01-16-07, 01:29 AM	Very interesting and very tempting to try out. On the Monk version, would there be a significant disadvantage to dropping Intelligence to 12 and buying a +2 Headband of Intellect by level 4 to qualify for Combat Expertise? I'm thinking those two extra build points could go to Wisdom to help saves (and AC if you're ever caught in your long johns) or go to Con or Dexterity to give one odd bump stat. But maybe I'm not thinking of something important that takes up the head slot. anti magic fields and such would liek, bone the character, as would gearless situations. in general im not a fan of relying on equpiment in that manner. there are 2 many ways to kill a whole feat line by simply remobing the item in question from the equation.
Mommy was an Orc 01-16-07, 09:35 AM	Ooops, sorry Andy - didn't see that post. OK, well let me give you my tweaks then. :) 1: Monk 1: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Power Attack, Dodge 2: Monk 2: Combat Reflexes 3: Barbarian 1: Extra Rage 4: Fighter 1: Combat Expertise 5: Fighter 2: EWP: Spiked Chain 6: Fighter 3: Cleave 7: Fighter 4: WF: Spiked Chain 8: Fighter 5 9: Fighter 6: Mobility, Elusive Target 10: Exotic Weapon Master 1: Flurry of Blows 11: Barbarian 2: Uncanny Dodge 12: Fighter 7: Close Quarters Fighting 13: Fighter 8: Karmic Strike 14: Fighter 9 15: Fighter 10: Defensive Throw, Quick Draw I kept most of your original feats. But I added the Spiked Chain and the EWM Flurry ability. You end up with 5 attacks a round at 12th level (including Haste). Using a reach weapon enhances many of the feat choices and makes both Cleave and Close Quarter Fighting better. Daren But it loses three major aspects of the build at what I think ends up being a detriment: Exotic Weapon Master. You lost 3 feats(EWP, WF, and 2 levels of Fighter) and several attacks per round. The point of the build is to generate full BAB AoOs via Karmic Strike and eventually Defensive Throw without getting Power Attacked back in return. With Monk Improved Unarmed Strike/Grapple and a Guisarme, you can get the rough effect of a Spiked Chain without using up the 3 feats. Karmic Strike/Elusive Target. It delays the key aspect of the build - take the attacks, negate the Power Attack, and swat the other guy back harder than he hit you. With the 1st build, this comes into play at APL 6, with the Monk, it happens at 9th. Also, Karmic Strike is a general feat, you can't take it with a Fighter bonus feat. Shock Trooper. This is the really broken aspect of the build. He Heedless Charges in with full power attack on the evil BDF. BDF grins and power attacks back for full. The power attack does nothing, but this build uses the same setting for Power Attack until the beginning of his next round - i.e. no penalty to hit. Which is to say, he full power attacks back on every swing at no penalty to hit and at his full BAB. Obviously, the BDF might try to find something else to do, but he's already impacted what he can do for the rest of the round. There's going to be potential table variation of the kind "Wait a minute, that's so broken it can't be intended, so I'm not going to allow it." But Shock Trooper is still a solid feat choice even if. Finally, I'm not meaning to really harsh on your build - it definitely is a good one - but it just doesn't do what I want it to do. Though, I should give it Close Quarters Fighting instead of Quickdraw at 13th. That's a good point. Quickdraw was a 'hmm, what should I put here', not essential by any means.
Alpha_Nerd 01-16-07, 09:39 AM	This guy is one dominate person spell from killing the rest of his party unfortunately :(
LachlarlanIII 01-16-07, 10:02 AM	There's nothing in the Karmic Strike feat description that says your lowered AC is in any way visible. If my PC's AC is visible when Karmic Striking, why can't I see when his opponents Power Attack or Combat Expertise? Even though neither Power Attack or Combat Expertise state they are visible, it is inferred they are based on what they allow one to do. When one power attacks they make a wild swing (lowered attack bonus) for more power (extra damage). When one expertises they lower their chance to hit in order to parry/deflect/dodge blows more effectively. It also isn't hard to guess what someone's AC is based on where all their bonuses are coming from.
Mommy was an Orc 01-16-07, 10:15 AM	This guy is one dominate person spell from killing the rest of his party unfortunately :( As are pretty much all pure Barbarian 1/Fighter X with Power Attack builds. There's a reason Magic Circle vs Evil lasts 10 minutes/level :)
LachlarlanIII 01-16-07, 10:21 AM	This guy is one dominate person spell from killing the rest of his party unfortunately :( Heh. My BDF Kill-The-Party type only has +2 Will at 10th level. I haven't invested in any save boosting gear with him because it wouldn't help at all. That's why I make sure at least one caster in the group prepares at least one Prot: Evil.
Vanadium 01-16-07, 11:04 AM	I remember seeing this and I thought of Snow Savant's Gatling Chain Gun Tripper Build. Then I also remembered that a Metaorg in the Shield Lands (and other areas, as a thread showed) gives out access to Tactical Soldier. Would a two level dip in that (at a loss of two feats: 1 for cleave and 1 for not taking 2 more fighter) be worth the advantages of Flanker and Sidestep?
Drezden 01-16-07, 11:05 AM	But it loses three major aspects of the build at what I think ends up being a detriment: Exotic Weapon Master. You lost 3 feats(EWP, WF, and 2 levels of Fighter) and several attacks per round. The point of the build is to generate full BAB AoOs via Karmic Strike and eventually Defensive Throw without getting Power Attacked back in return. With Monk Improved Unarmed Strike/Grapple and a Guisarme, you can get the rough effect of a Spiked Chain without using up the 3 feats. Karmic Strike/Elusive Target. It delays the key aspect of the build - take the attacks, negate the Power Attack, and swat the other guy back harder than he hit you. With the 1st build, this comes into play at APL 6, with the Monk, it happens at 9th. Also, Karmic Strike is a general feat, you can't take it with a Fighter bonus feat. Shock Trooper. This is the really broken aspect of the build. He Heedless Charges in with full power attack on the evil BDF. BDF grins and power attacks back for full. The power attack does nothing, but this build uses the same setting for Power Attack until the beginning of his next round - i.e. no penalty to hit. Which is to say, he full power attacks back on every swing at no penalty to hit and at his full BAB. Obviously, the BDF might try to find something else to do, but he's already impacted what he can do for the rest of the round. There's going to be potential table variation of the kind "Wait a minute, that's so broken it can't be intended, so I'm not going to allow it." But Shock Trooper is still a solid feat choice even if. Finally, I'm not meaning to really harsh on your build - it definitely is a good one - but it just doesn't do what I want it to do. Though, I should give it Close Quarters Fighting instead of Quickdraw at 13th. That's a good point. Quickdraw was a 'hmm, what should I put here', not essential by any means. Yeah, CQF is defintely a great feat when you have a reach weapon and combat reflexes. I like your build too - but, and I know you disagree with this, I love the Spiked Chain. The flurry of blows ability is just ridiculous - 5 attacks a round is just great. I have seen well-built Spiked Chain fighters at high APLs and would pick them over any other front line build. Daren
LGMoses 01-16-07, 12:55 PM	omg, a build that is almost pure! Thats amazing to see on these boards. Sure u don't wanna throwin in some marshal, monk, scout, or something like that? If you don't i'll be amazed.
_m_ 01-16-07, 06:13 PM	omg, a build that is almost pure! Thats amazing to see on these boards. Sure u don't wanna throwin in some marshal, monk, scout, or something like that? If you don't i'll be amazed. not THIS again... step over to the dark side... embrace your inner marshal... i really like seing basically a straight fighter. especially a well put together one.
jhorred 01-17-07, 12:09 AM	Human Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 8 1: Barbarian 1: Combat Reflexes, Power Attack 2: Fighter 1: Dodge 3: Fighter 2: Combat Expertise, Karmic Strike 4: Fighter 3 5: Fighter 4: Mobility 6: Fighter 5: Elusive Target 7: Fighter 6: Improved Bullrush 8: Fighter 7 9: Fighter 8: Shock Trooper, Extra Rage 10: Fighter 9 11: Fighter 10: Improved Sunder 12: Fighter 11: Combat Brute 13: Fighter 12: Improved Trip 14: Fighter 13 15: Fighter 14: Improved Unarmed Strike, Defensive Throw How's that for a build which actually needs Fighter 14 in it and doesn't even have feats for WF, let alone WS, GWF, or GWS...I suppose I could have thrown in Monk 2 at level 1-2, then switched to Fighter and Barbarian levels for an extra feat, but that then delays Elusive Target til 9th and isn't Fighter 14 - people will look at the 2 Monk levels -> Barbarian and roll their eyes instead of going 'wow, you actually managed to need those Fighter levels...' I know it seems like a while to wait for Extra Rage, but unfortunately, Elusive Target, Karmic Strike and it are all general feats and can't use Fighter bonus feats to get it. why not drop the level of barb and shock everyone by having, not a 'nearly pure' fighter, but a pure fighter....
Mommy was an Orc 01-17-07, 12:27 AM	why not drop the level of barb and shock everyone by having, not a 'nearly pure' fighter, but a pure fighter.... Fighter 15 serves no mechanical purpose - you don't get a bonus feat. Not to mention, it really hurts the build not to have Rage. Karmic Strike/Elusive Target means you want to be hit - the -2 to AC is a bonus, not a hindrance.
jhorred 01-17-07, 12:46 AM	Fighter 15 serves no mechanical purpose - you don't get a bonus feat. Not to mention, it really hurts the build not to have Rage. Karmic Strike/Elusive Target means you want to be hit - the -2 to AC is a bonus, not a hindrance. So? neither does fighter 3... My point is, does everything really require a mechanical purpose to take? Why does everything have to be super-optimized? Why not take something a little different to stand out from the crowd? For the AC bit, why not just forgo armor period and go with an 8 dex, if you want to be hit?
_m_ 01-17-07, 12:52 AM	So? neither does fighter 3... My point is, does everything really require a mechanical purpose to take? Why does everything have to be super-optimized? Why not take something a little different to stand out from the crowd? For the AC bit, why not just forgo armor period and go with an 8 dex, if you want to be hit? you dont want to randomly be crited when flat footed by a full attack 6 or 7 times bcuz ur ac is crap, you want to be able to MAKE your ac crap when u need it to be, but not until then. and the build is kind of meant to be super optimised, so...
jhorred 01-17-07, 12:59 AM	and the build is kind of meant to be super optimised, so... True perhaps I missed that point, but to me it seems that many people seem to put mechanical advantage ahead of everything and that irritates me. Not sure why but it does.
_m_ 01-17-07, 01:17 AM	True perhaps I missed that point, but to me it seems that many people seem to put mechanical advantage ahead of everything and that irritates me. Not sure why but it does. lots of us feel the same way (see the thread 'to build or not to build'). the point is that there is a certain fun, a certain challenge, in designing a near perfect build. that fact is that most people, myself included, who have varying degrees of capability when it comes to power building, very rarely actually play said builds. we just have fun designing them.
clannagh 01-17-07, 01:37 AM	lots of us feel the same way (see the thread 'to build or not to build'). the point is that there is a certain fun, a certain challenge, in designing a near perfect build. that fact is that most people, myself included, who have varying degrees of capability when it comes to power building, very rarely actually play said builds. we just have fun designing them. Designing a good build is fun but playing a preset build for me is pretty boring. Some people believe not being able to stick to a ground up build for 15 levels merely shows an inability to persevere with things :) In my case of course they would be entirely correct but tis a bit of a generalisation.
Mommy was an Orc 01-17-07, 10:08 AM	So? neither does fighter 3... My point is, does everything really require a mechanical purpose to take? Why does everything have to be super-optimized? Why not take something a little different to stand out from the crowd? For the AC bit, why not just forgo armor period and go with an 8 dex, if you want to be hit? The purpose of the build is to do enough damage to drop your foe through Karmic Strike while not being dropped yourself. By not having Rage, that effectively drops the damage per swing by 7 hp(+2 to hit, +3 damage, +2 to hit converted into Power Attack = +4 damage). It also gives an extra level * 2 hit points. There's various trip/bullrush based aspects of the build - getting an extra +4 Strength means they work more often. It makes you harder to grapple. The 14 Dex means you get up to 3 AoOs vs 1. It means when you eventually get +2 Dex Gloves, you have 4 AoOs instead of 1. It makes it more likely you go first and therefore get to pick your Dodge buddy. Not having Barbarian means you won't be doing enough damage or having enough hit points to outlast your opponents consistently. It kills the build. Not to mention, you give up everything else that Barbarian gives - this build gets 5 skill points per level - that's more than enough to keep Listen maxxed as an example. Plus the extra move makes it easier to get where you need to be. Finally, not to be missed is the extra 2 hp. There's builds where Fighter 15 can be reasonably competitive with Barbarian 1/Fighter 14. This isn't one of them. Barbarian 1/Fighter 14 will drop a lot of their opponents before that can happen to them. Fighter 15 doesn't do that..
jstorrie 01-17-07, 02:59 PM	jhorred, what is particularly better about Fighter 15 than Fighter 14 / Barbarian 1? You imply that Mommy Was an Orc shouldn't put the barbarian dip in his build because his only reason is mechanical advantage - what reason is there for the fifteenth level of fighter? Isn't deciding to be single-classed just for the heck of it an equally out-of-character, metagaming decision? So why bother? Does not taking an unnecessary and lower-powered level mean that Mommy Was an Orc can no longer roleplay his character properly?
Mommy was an Orc 01-17-07, 03:11 PM	jhorred, what is particularly better about Fighter 15 than Fighter 14 / Barbarian 1? You imply that Mommy Was an Orc shouldn't put the barbarian dip in his build because his only reason is mechanical advantage Actually, what I find really interesting is that his Fighter-only build is a tweaked 20 Str Half-Orc...no, he doesn't base his decisions on mechanical advantages at all...
jstorrie 01-17-07, 03:25 PM	His Fighter-only build has Shield Specialization and Weapon Focus Greatsword. I didn't see a lot of advantages in that thread.
Mommy was an Orc 01-17-07, 04:16 PM	His Fighter-only build has Shield Specialization and Weapon Focus Greatsword. I didn't see a lot of advantages in that thread. Neither did I. I just find the idea of someone complaining about why does everything have to be superoptimized while playing a character who started out with a 20 str a bit weird.
clannagh 01-17-07, 04:58 PM	Neither did I. I just find the idea of someone complaining about why does everything have to be superoptimized while playing a character who started out with a 20 str a bit weird. Well to be honest 20 STR is actually a bit of a character nobble .. if you put the needed 6 points to get from STR 18 to STR 20 back into CON instead you actually gain +2 Fort and 30 hit points at level 15 for the loss of +1 to hit and +1 damage. So 20 STR is not really superoptimised in that build :)
Mommy was an Orc 01-17-07, 05:06 PM	Well to be honest 20 STR is actually a bit of a character nobble .. if you put the needed 6 points to get from STR 18 to STR 20 back into CON instead you actually gain +2 Fort and 30 hit points at level 15 for the loss of +1 to hit and +1 damage. So 20 STR is not really superoptimised in that build :) I don't regard 20 STR as superoptimized either - just 20 Str half-orcs with brutal throw and only a 12 Con in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. :)
_m_ 01-17-07, 07:12 PM	I don't regard 20 STR as superoptimized either - just 20 Str half-orcs with brutal throw and only a 12 Con in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. :) yeah... because they'll break the house... and it'd fall on them.
jhorred 01-18-07, 12:41 AM	I definately paid for the 20 STR with the 12 CON. The poor guy spent alot of time laying on the ground and I still worry about his HP since I decided to go the AC route instead of the CON boost item. Perhaps the higher CON would be the wiser choice than the Amulet of Natural Armor but I've become attached to his AC. (Hence the Armor and Shield Feats. I have an animated shield and I have access to another one in case I lose it.) This is my first LG character and if I had it to do all over again I don't know if I'd give him the 20 STR so I could have a higher CON.
jhorred 01-18-07, 12:43 AM	I don't regard 20 STR as superoptimized either - just 20 Str half-orcs with brutal throw and only a 12 Con in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. :) Get it right he's got a 26 STR now... ;) If his STR is the only thing that people see as superoptimized then I feel like I did a good job building him. :D
Vanadium 01-20-07, 10:22 AM	But it loses three major aspects of the build at what I think ends up being a detriment: Exotic Weapon Master. You lost 3 feats(EWP, WF, and 2 levels of Fighter) and several attacks per round. The point of the build is to generate full BAB AoOs via Karmic Strike and eventually Defensive Throw without getting Power Attacked back in return. With Monk Improved Unarmed Strike/Grapple and a Guisarme, you can get the rough effect of a Spiked Chain without using up the 3 feats. Karmic Strike/Elusive Target. It delays the key aspect of the build - take the attacks, negate the Power Attack, and swat the other guy back harder than he hit you. With the 1st build, this comes into play at APL 6, with the Monk, it happens at 9th. Also, Karmic Strike is a general feat, you can't take it with a Fighter bonus feat. Shock Trooper. This is the really broken aspect of the build. He Heedless Charges in with full power attack on the evil BDF. BDF grins and power attacks back for full. The power attack does nothing, but this build uses the same setting for Power Attack until the beginning of his next round - i.e. no penalty to hit. Which is to say, he full power attacks back on every swing at no penalty to hit and at his full BAB. Obviously, the BDF might try to find something else to do, but he's already impacted what he can do for the rest of the round. There's going to be potential table variation of the kind "Wait a minute, that's so broken it can't be intended, so I'm not going to allow it." But Shock Trooper is still a solid feat choice even if. Okay, I don't seem to be getting something with this build. This is from the first page, where you spell out what the build is intended to do. The thing I am confused about is the interaction of the Guisarme and your combo of Karmic Strike/Elusive Target/Shock Trooper. The thing is, you seem to advocate the use of the guisarme in this post, but the thing is if you do that, you miss out on the tasty Karmic Strike/Shock Trooper Synergy, unless you regularly fight things with reach (which might become more common at higher levels). Normally, the fix for this would be to wear armor spikes (which are light) or use Improved Unarmed Strike (which is technically one handed for Power Attack's purposes). The only problem with IUS is the fact that you don't get it until 15th level in the non-monk build. The monk build gets it at first level, but So, I guess I should ask if you should be using a reach weapon or not. I'm thinking you really don't want to (unless it is the spiked chain, where you lose another feat). It is just I got confused with the whole guisarme/IUS remark. I don't know if it was meant for comparision to a spiked chain, or if it was what the build wished to use.
Mommy was an Orc 01-20-07, 02:32 PM	The thing I am confused about is the interaction of the Guisarme and your combo of Karmic Strike/Elusive Target/Shock Trooper. The thing is, you seem to advocate the use of the guisarme in this post, but the thing is if you do that, you miss out on the tasty Karmic Strike/Shock Trooper Synergy, unless you regularly fight things with reach (which might become more common at higher levels). It was meant for a comparison with a spiked chain for the Monk build. The Barbarian/Fighter build should get a Guisarme/Armor Spikes. Remember, the point of Karmic Strike/Elusive Target/Shock Trooper/Combat Reflexes is not that you use every one of the feats every round, but rather it gives you a huge number of options. If you're fighting things without reach, they're going to have to move up to you to hit you. So you get the AoO with the Guisarme as they move up, and when they hit you, you poke 'em with the Spikes for a 2nd AoO if you have the AoOs for it. These are options that Daren's Spiked Chain build simply doesn't get. And picking up EWP(Spiked Chain) means delaying the effect from 9th to a minimum of 11th or losing Extra Rage. The difference to me, between a build which gets most of what it wants at 6th and perfects itself at 9th and a build that gets it at 9th and perfects at 12th is huge...
Drezden 01-20-07, 04:07 PM	But switching between a Guisarme and Armor Spikes hurts a lot of the synergy in your build. If you charge someone (using Shock Trooper) with a Gusiarme, but they don't have reach, they can 5' step into you and now your Karmic Strike AOOs are with Armor Spikes (hence no 2 for 1 PA). If you had a Spiked Chain, you wouldn't have this problem. I really believe that the Spiked Chain is the best weapon in the game - and easily worth the extra feat. You can threaten all the squares out to 10' or out to 20' when Enlarged (frequently at higher APLs). This makes CQF, combat reflexes, hold the line, cleave, karmic strike and other feats much better. It also allows you to take EWM and get the flurry ability. Plus, it gives a bonus to disarm, allows you to trip, and is both weapon finessable and power attackable. No other weapon comes close to this. I will admit that Quick Drawing between reach and non-reachable weapons can help a lot (my 12th level BDF does this); but it doesn't give you all the benefits a Spiked Chain does. Moreover, by having one weapon that covers both reach and adjacent attacks you can apply all your buffs to one weapon, rather than dividing them among multiple weapons. [Of course, you might need multiple special materials, but that is besides the point, since someone using reach and non-reach weapons would need 2 of each special material, where a Spiked Chain user would only need 1.] Yes, if all your feats are accounted for, you will have to sacrifice a feat or two to utilize the Spike Chain. However, the additional options it offers, along with the enhanced uses of other feats more than makes up for it. Daren It was meant for a comparison with a spiked chain for the Monk build. The Barbarian/Fighter build should get a Guisarme/Armor Spikes. Remember, the point of Karmic Strike/Elusive Target/Shock Trooper/Combat Reflexes is not that you use every one of the feats every round, but rather it gives you a huge number of options. If you're fighting things without reach, they're going to have to move up to you to hit you. So you get the AoO with the Guisarme as they move up, and when they hit you, you poke 'em with the Spikes for a 2nd AoO if you have the AoOs for it. These are options that Daren's Spiked Chain build simply doesn't get. And picking up EWP(Spiked Chain) means delaying the effect from 9th to a minimum of 11th or losing Extra Rage. The difference to me, between a build which gets most of what it wants at 6th and perfects itself at 9th and a build that gets it at 9th and perfects at 12th is huge...
Mommy was an Orc 01-20-07, 05:51 PM	But switching between a Guisarme and Armor Spikes hurts a lot of the synergy in your build. If you charge someone (using Shock Trooper) with a Gusiarme, but they don't have reach, they can 5' step into you and now your Karmic Strike AOOs are with Armor Spikes (hence no 2 for 1 PA). If you had a Spiked Chain, you wouldn't have this problem. Yes, because I wouldn't have the synergy in the first place. ;) If this is a medium creature by himself without reach, then I have Elusive Target, meaning he's not going to do a lot of damage back as he's my dodge buddy. He's going to be exchanging a lot of no power attack damage for me swinging back with power attack during my attack and armor spiking him regularly. I'm also likely to drop the guisarme and pull out the 2nd golf club. Sure, I lose maybe a hasted attack and an iterative - if he's swinging more than once back at me, I'll get them back in return at full BAB. If he's not, his friends have to come up to me and take the AoOs from combat reflexes which are at the nice full power attack. There's several things that are likely to be going on here - I just did a Heedless Charge, so my AC is now in some bottomless pit. Because Spiked Chain man doesn't have the feats for Karmic Strike, he should be pounded - the remaining attackers draw reach weapons to engage, so Spiked Chain man gets no AoOs. Or he doesn't have Elusive Target, meaning that when the 1st guy hit 5' steps up and does his full attack, he goes down like a ton of bricks. Or he doesn't have the feat for Shock Trooper, so while his AC isn't 0, he's taking a lot of damage in return while not dishing out that much and punishing the value of his AoOs if he does Power Attack on the charge. Or he doesn't have Extra Rage, so if the mod has more than one combat per day, all his actions suffer. Something has to go until at least 11th, if not 12th level. Yes, Spiked Chain is a wonderful thing, but so is the ability to make Heedless Charge into something where you can dish out about 200 hp of damage in the 1st round at 9th level while taking less than half of that in return.
Rerednaw 01-24-07, 05:42 PM	Human Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 8 1: Barbarian 1: Combat Reflexes, Power Attack 2: Fighter 1: Dodge ... I like the build. I'm not sure about LG viability. I've been in many situations where you can't close to melee, can't charge and can't trip. On second thought, I guess that's what the rest of the party is for. :D I'm also trying to find a way to sneak in Close-Quarters Fighting but can't seem to do it (too many bad memories of being grappled/swallowed to death). Maybe drop Extra Rage? Any thoughts? Cheers.
Dr.Cornelius 04-21-07, 04:47 AM	Heh. My BDF Kill-The-Party type only has +2 Will at 10th level. I haven't invested in any save boosting gear with him because it wouldn't help at all. That's why I make sure at least one caster in the group prepares at least one Prot: Evil.Poor will save is the achillies heel of this kind of build. A strong solution is Half-Orc Barbarian -> Extra Rage -> Channeled Rage
Southernskies 04-21-07, 10:06 PM	There is one major problem with this build. When you rage, you lose access to Combat Expertise, thereby losing your feat chain, including Karmic Strike.
jstorrie 04-21-07, 10:16 PM	That's not true. You lose the use of Combat Expertise, but you don't lose the feat itself, so it still works fine as a prerequisite.