Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rerednaw 01-24-07, 05:49 PM	I like the idea of a heroic monk. I just cannot seem to make a concept work. Whether a tripper, grappler, or charger, he frequently pales besides a fighter or barbarian. The only time he seems to surpass anyone is in the 'stripped buck nekkid' situation. As an alternate approach, I tried to focus on skills but his MAD is bad already. Has anyone toughed out a Monk X or even I suppose a Anyclass 1/Monk X to the upper levels and not feel like he wasn't contributing? Any suggestions on a straight-forward build? I'm not looking for a one-trick pony. I just want a fella that can hold his own, mix it up once in a while and not fall over in a stiff breeze or a raging barbarian's cleave. :D Cheers.
LachlarlanIII 01-24-07, 05:52 PM	Are you trying to build a single-classed Monk? I've got a Monk/Tattooed Monk/Pious Templar/Favored Soul build I'll post if you're interested. Effectively 15 levels of Monk.
Bob_the_Theurge 01-24-07, 06:01 PM	I like the idea of a heroic monk. I just cannot seem to make a concept work. Whether a tripper, grappler, or charger, he frequently pales besides a fighter or barbarian. The only time he seems to surpass anyone is in the 'stripped buck nekkid' situation. As an alternate approach, I tried to focus on skills but his MAD is bad already. Has anyone toughed out a Monk X or even I suppose a Anyclass 1/Monk X to the upper levels and not feel like he wasn't contributing? Any suggestions on a straight-forward build? I'm not looking for a one-trick pony. I just want a fella that can hold his own, mix it up once in a while and not fall over in a stiff breeze or a raging barbarian's cleave. :D Cheers. The one best Monk I ever saw was a half-orc Monk who gave up on the Wisdom bonus, put everything into Strength, put on full plate armor with Armor Spikes and a Spiked Gauntlet, and grappled a lot. The problem with building a Monk in LG is that the 28-point build is too restrictive for a class that's designed to have four "primary" stats; Str, Dex, Con, Wis.
ShinAkuma2 01-24-07, 06:08 PM	I've been doing quite well with a Tattooed Monk...6 Monk levels, then TMnk to 15, finishing out with the rest of Monk... As a Monk, your best bet is to concentrate on helping others. Don't worry about what you do; worry about helping others do what they do. This is why Monks are good for tripping, flanking, grappling, etc. I know Monks don't make the best choice for many of these, but the fact that you have this versatility is your asset. Also, concentrating on keeping your saves and AC high is important, because those few times when you are deemed a threat, you want to be able to avoid it. My Monk has survived many battles unscathed simply because he couldn't be hit. To this end, I have enjoyed use of the Scorpion and Chameleon tattoos, and the Dodge and Defensive Throw feats. At 9th lvl, he has AC 27 and average saves of +13, which, while not huge, are still pretty good. It may serve you well to concentrate on Dex, perhaps starting with a level of Swashbuckler for Weapon Finesse, and taking Improved Disarm as your 6th lvl feat. You lose out on tripping and grappling ability, but your attack bonus and AC will be significantly higher for it.
clannagh 01-24-07, 06:10 PM	The one best Monk I ever saw was a half-orc Monk who gave up on the Wisdom bonus, put everything into Strength, put on full plate armor with Armor Spikes and a Spiked Gauntlet, and grappled a lot. The problem with building a Monk in LG is that the 28-point build is too restrictive for a class that's designed to have four "primary" stats; Str, Dex, Con, Wis. Plus the fact that the generic LGCS allowed "PHB with +1 or minor stat item" item access i s next to useless for monks. Anything they can really use effectively is limited access.
Lomiat 01-24-07, 06:42 PM	As a Monk, your best bet is to concentrate on helping others. Don't worry about what you do; worry about helping others do what they do. This is why Monks are good for tripping, flanking, grappling, etc. I know Monks don't make the best choice for many of these, but the fact that you have this versatility is your asset. We have a half-orc Barbarian 1/Monk 11 in our region who "pales in comparison" to the fighter for raw damage, "pales in comparison" to most straight-tripper builds for combat tactics, and doesn't even bother to grapple (that I recall). Nonetheless, he's done quite well for himself, largely because at his level, he gets a ton of attacks, he's versatile (as mentioned above), and people are willing to buff the bejeebers out of him. Monks take buffs better than just about anyone. Since most of the stuff monks want to buy is weird, they get maximum benefit from a lot of spells that just fail to overlap with standard fighters. Want a Bull's Strength? Figher says, Naw, 'cause he's alredy got Gauntlets and would be better served if his foes were blinded with Glitterdust. The monk? Sure, why not? Because he's going to gain +2 to his 5 attacks and +2 to damage with each. Polymorph? Heck, yeah. Monk in Annis Hag form gets flurry PLUS natural attacks (though with a penalty for being secondary attacks. Our monk gets 8 attacks in Annis Hag form (can't remember if that's with or without the Rend), and his AC hovers around 40. Plus, when he feels like it, he'll throw in a Stunning Fist because his WIS is still a +5, putting the Fort save DC at a 21 (I think). Meanwhile, it's often overlooked, but high-level monks' base speed can do all sorts of good, weird things for them. Charge 200 feet? Sure. Jump a 50-foot chasm? Why not. In the long run, a good monk build is kind of like a melee archer (lots of dice), but with lower attack bonuses and higher damage output. I'd recommend the STR route over the DEX route, by the way, and then just make friends with your casters.
Mommy was an Orc 01-24-07, 07:57 PM	I think there's several rules of thumb: 16+ Strength monks work best unless you expect Polymorph for some reason. Then Wisdom monks are better. Just because you don't have proficiency with any reach weapons doesn't mean you can't wield a Spiked Chain - take advantage of Combat Reflexes. A tripped opponent is an easy to hit opponent. This is one of the advantages of Sorcerer over Wizard for Enlightened Fist - Longspear... Spring Attack is a bad, bad idea. Too many feats you don't have. Worse, it usually shows up in high Dex/Low Str builds, meaning you need Weapon Finesse at 3rd... Even if you want Improved Grapple(or vice-versa), consider taking Stunning Fist as your Monk feat and Improved Grapple as your 1st level feat. There's no other time you'll be able to get both so easily again.
clannagh 01-24-07, 08:04 PM	I think there's several rules of thumb: 16+ Strength monks work best unless you expect Polymorph for some reason. Then Wisdom monks are better. I have never actually built a monk but always tended towards a power attacking dex monk when thinking up concepts. Aside from better grapple what are the advanatages of the strength build ?
trollbill 01-24-07, 09:03 PM	I like the idea of a heroic monk. I just cannot seem to make a concept work. Whether a tripper, grappler, or charger, he frequently pales besides a fighter or barbarian. That's odd. Most of the fighters and barbarians my monk plays with are jealous of his power. While they will never (and should never) deal out the damage of a straight fighter type, a monks versitility makes up for it. Monks just have tons of options as to what they can do on the battlefield. That means they can be very powerful, but you have to think to make them effective. If you don't want to think very hard when playing D&D, don't play a monk. And MwaO is correct. A spiked chain can be awesome in the hands of a Monk. Try combining a spiked chain with a 60-foot move, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes, Mobility and Cause Overreach from Elusive Target and see what happens.
trollbill 01-24-07, 09:05 PM	I have never actually built a monk but always tended towards a power attacking dex monk when thinking up concepts. Aside from better grapple what are the advanatages of the strength build ? Monks rely heavily on melee combat for their attacks. Strength adds both to both the damage and attack even if you never grapple. It also helps with Trip Attack and Jump checks.
Archwolf 01-24-07, 09:39 PM	I have a 4th level monk that I really enjoy playing. I particularly want to emphasize the benefit of being very, very fast. I typically play up, and among my tasks might be to swoop in on the enemy caster and grapple him/her/it, zip past the mooks and try to stun/flurry the leader type, or to run past the mooks and attack the baddies attacking from range. Then I double back and set up a flank for the tank or rogue. I'm considering going Sacred Fist so I can self-buff - grappling while enlarged and with bull strength sounds pretty great (and lets not forget the extra 10' movement from celerity domain). The monks role should never be to stand toe-to-toe with an enemy, but the ability to get all over the battlefield in a hurry means you're never without something to do - flurry, flank, assist attack, stabilize a comrade, apply a needed potion of healing, trip, catch a fleeing enemy, grapple, and on and on. I've only just taken my non-proficient spiked chain, on advice from these boards, but with combat reflexes thats a bunch of free attacks, especially with the aforementioned mobility (Lower case. I second the don't-go-for-spring-attack notion.). I put most of my points into Str and Wis (both 16s), so I hit my target, hurt them, and the stun DC is high enough to be effective. I anticipate my money for magic will go into ability buffs. MAD is, indeed, a problem, so cranking up strength, Con and Dex will surely lead to a longer life for my dude. The half-orc build mentioned above sounds pretty effective, but I play a human for the extra feat and skill point, especially for tumbling. Plus, with all that strength and no armor, I can carry most of the inventory of the PHB in my backpack. The grain of salt here is I haven't gotten to high levels. The possibility of a world of frustration at high APLs is what's tempting me to Sacred Fist (CD). Enlightened Fist (CAr) also looks pretty fun, but my INT is too low. But I'm also tempted to go straight monk and just see what I can do.
solbergb 01-24-07, 10:59 PM	My monk works very well. But I don't advise you to build him, I did some things for roleplay reasons that put weaknesses into the build. The "generic monk" build for LG goes something like this. Pick your choice of Wood Elf or Half-Orc (if human, you are limited to the low int/16 str version)) This is the half-orc version Str 18 or 16 dex 14 con 14 int 6 or 10 wis 14 or 16 cha 6 (ie 16 str 16 wis 6 int or 18 str 14 wis 6 int or 16 str 14 wis 10 int) L1 stun fist and grapple as bonus feat L3 power attack L6 improved trip (offensive feat) L9 (offensive feat) L12 Sun School Martial Arts (it really is that good with flash of sunset, and it isn't bad even without it) L13+ exit monk for something else unless you really like spell resistance, because that's all you realy get from monk in the 12-15 game. Grapple is strongest in low levels. It mitigates your rather weak armor class quite a bit, by taking away multiple nat weapon attacks and weapons heavier than light. Trip is good right about when you get it, and it takes away more attacks. After level 8, your flurry just gets stronger and stronger, peaking in power at level 12. As your grapple/trip fade, your raw damage increases so you need them less...you just hit anything too big/immune to grapple/trip and even vs easy opponents to use those maneuvers on sometimes you'll just kill them cause it's faster/less risky than wasting an attack when they roll a 20 on the trip resist and you roll a 1. Trust the monk class to provide sufficient defense to spells, backed only by cloak or vest of resist and the usual physical attribute items. Trust mage armor to provide most of the AC defense you need, combined with your tactical feats (stunned, grappled and/or trippped opponents hit back poorly). Well designed monks are cockroaches - quite hard to kill and quite capable of rescuing themselves if they have a single hitpoint to work with and aren't helpless. They should also be able to place themselves anywhere on the battlefield, lock down an opponent with grapple/trip/stun and then kill them with the flurry. A monk build that sacrifices too much of that dynamic will seem ineffectual. A monk build that wears fullplate isn't a monk, he's a fighter who traded BAB for feats. He can't get where he is needed, and his main monk offensive advantage that offsets the loss of BAB (more primary BAB attacks) is eliminated. A monk build who dumped strength is pretty much a "save or be stunned" machine who isnt' capable of doing anything else and is utterly useless against nonstunnable critters. A monk who dumped wisdom adds a chink in his magical AND physical defenses, plus eliminates stun fist as an offensive option (along with quite a few monk feats and PRC's). Generally you'll do damage comparable to a tactical fighter (ie, the kind that spent attribute points on enough int for combat expertise - those points are the points you spent on wisdom), have armor class similar to a rogue and have no save weaknesses but have each save a little lower than, say, a rogue's reflex save or a cleric's will save. The immunities and things like improved evasion tend to make up the difference.
Rerednaw 01-25-07, 04:50 PM	Are you trying to build a single-classed Monk? I've got a Monk/Tattooed Monk/Pious Templar/Favored Soul build I'll post if you're interested. Effectively 15 levels of Monk. Optimally, I want a single class monk. I prefer human (I'm a humanist) but I'll take any race with a good reason. Dwarf sounds interesting. Just because I don't see many out there. Or anyclass1/monkx. I'd sure I'd like to see what you ended up with though. Thanks for the advice so far all. On another note, all those who like Alter self from Tattooed monk...what do you alter yourself into and why? I probably won't take power atk. There was a long discussion about this (forget the thread) and the numbers for power atk don't add up unless you have full BAB. Cheers.
trollbill 01-25-07, 05:34 PM	On another note, all those who like Alter self from Tattooed monk...what do you alter yourself into and why? Troglodyte because it gives you a +6 Natural Armor bonus and 3 natural secondary attacks that can be taken with Flurry of Blows since you are allowed to make natural attacks as part of a Flurry.
Crazy Boro 01-25-07, 05:39 PM	Troglodyte because it gives you a +6 Natural Armor bonus and 3 natural secondary attacks that can be taken with Flurry of Blows since you are allowed to make natural attacks as part of a Flurry. Then you also get the racial bonus feat Multiattack and the racial bonus to hide checks. :D
Jay_Ibero_911 01-25-07, 08:57 PM	Optimally, I want a single class monk. I prefer human (I'm a humanist) but I'll take any race with a good reason. Dwarf sounds interesting. Just because I don't see many out there. Or anyclass1/monkx. I'd sure I'd like to see what you ended up with though. Thanks for the advice so far all. On another note, all those who like Alter self from Tattooed monk...what do you alter yourself into and why? I probably won't take power atk. There was a long discussion about this (forget the thread) and the numbers for power atk don't add up unless you have full BAB. Cheers. If you are interested in a Dwarven Monk build, I do have one in cold storage you may find interesting: Race: Dwarf Alignment:Lawful Neutral or Good STR-15 (8) DEX-14 (6) CON-14 (6)+2 INT-10 (2) WIS-14 (6) CHA-8 (0)-2 Lv1(Monk)Endurance, Improved Grapple Lv2(Monk) Lv3(Monk)Earth Sense Lv4(Monk)+1 STR Lv5(Monk) Lv6(Monk)Earth Adept, Improved Trip Lv7(Tattooed Monk)Chameleon Tattoo Lv8(Tattooed Monk)+1 STR Lv9(Tattooed Monk)Earth Master, Tiger Tattoo Lv10(Tattooed Monk) Lv11(Tattooed Monk)Wasp Tattoo Lv12(Tattooed Monk)Earth Fist, +1 STR Lv13(Tattooed Monk)Tattoo Lv14(Tattooed Monk) Lv15(Tattooed Monk)Feat, Tattoo Once you get the Chameleon, Wasp, and Tiger tattoos, your full-attack becomes very nasty, especially asuming you are standing on the ground (a fairly safe assumption). At 11th level, and the tattoos active, you get 3 unarmed attack at full BAB -2, 1 secondary unarmed attack, as well as 2 claws and a bite, all at nice bonuses to attack and damage. Earth Fist is somewhat of a throwaway feat, mostly there for flavor, though depending on how often you encounter demons and fey, it may prove useful. For added power, you may want to throw in 2 levels of Stonelord for the Earth Power ability, for even more bonuses, albeit only once per day. Overall, you'll be hardpressed to make any sort of powerhouse monk in LG, but there are numerous ways to make a versatile monk.
solbergb 01-25-07, 10:29 PM	I probably won't take power atk. There was a long discussion about this (forget the thread) and the numbers for power atk don't add up unless you have full BAB. Cheers. The numbers add up when the enemy AC is low enough or you have enough to-hit buffs. My monk is very often in flanking position, or the enemy is prone, or he's stunned or otherwise discommoded by friendly spellcasting or he's got GMW and recitation and rightous wrath of faithfulf from friendly spellcasting or whatever. Being able to convert attack rolls into damage when you have ENOUGH attack mod...is just darn useful. Around about APL10 start asking for GMW or GMF on your fist/foot/whatever. It helps your damage but also makes a huge difference in how often you hit. Some of the perceived weakness in hitting of monks is the fighter getting GMW on his greatsword and the monk forgetting to ask for it on his fist. My monk, in most combats, is needing "2"s to hit on his four primary attacks and sometimes on his iterative as well. In those combats I would dearly like to have power attack. It doesn't help in the maybe 1 in 4 combats where I actually need to roll something to hit the enemy, but it wouldn't help a full BAB fighter much either. Monks also benefit from power attack if they ever do single attacks, or do a lot of work with tripping/reach weapons/AOO's. I'm only down 4 BAB at level 13 - that's my bonus for tripping the guy. If it makes sense for a fighter to PA vs a standing target, it makes sense for me when he's tripped. I've seen monks with and without power attack. Mine does not yet have it. I am in fact taking a fighter level (and 40% xp penalty) to get it two levels before I retire instead of one level before I retire, because I've been missing it for about 5 levels now. Now none of this applies if you are a wussy monk with less strength than a typical fighter. Then you may not have the numbers to make PA work. Most of why taking it at L3 makes sense is that other feats require more BAB...in practice taking it around level 9 is probably ideal (when your flurry no longer incurs a to-hit penalty, and greater flurry is just around the corner and usually when you're starting to get frustrated with your single-hit damage)
ShinAkuma2 01-25-07, 10:46 PM	Troglodyte because it gives you a +6 Natural Armor bonus and 3 natural secondary attacks that can be taken with Flurry of Blows since you are allowed to make natural attacks as part of a Flurry. That's the best one for combat. Locathuh is great for swimming, and the myriad small races are helpful for when you need to squeeze through something tight.
Ramacass 01-26-07, 10:44 PM	What about wizard 1 /monk x take wizard at third level and practised spellcaster as your feat specilize in evocation to get an extra spell slot, Take mage armor, shocking grasp, sheild and enlarge person + whatever else as your spells. Scribe scrolls of mage armor sheild and enlarge person. Prepare shocking grasp and cast it in the morning after your cup of herbal tea. Then hold the charge all day untill you get in your first combat and your first hit will do an extra 3d6-5d6 (depending on level) of shocking damage. Nice for running past the flunkies and hitting the spellcaster. just a thought
Rerednaw 01-27-07, 02:05 AM	That's the best one for combat. Locathuh is great for swimming, and the myriad small races are helpful for when you need to squeeze through something tight. And all the natural attacks are made at which bonus/damage? Which book/errata covers this? I'm sure it's legit I just want to know if it comes up in a game I'm running (it will be a while before my monk can take any prestige levels.).
Jay_Ibero_911 01-28-07, 11:15 AM	And all the natural attacks are made at which bonus/damage? Which book/errata covers this? I'm sure it's legit I just want to know if it comes up in a game I'm running (it will be a while before my monk can take any prestige levels.). The natural attacks are natural attacks and not unarmed attacks. You use the normal natural attack damage, and the attack bonus you be your normal attack bonus -5, or -2 with multi-attack (which a troglodyte form gets). So if you are flurrying and using your natural attacks, and you have a BAB of +5, you would make 2 unarmed attacks at +3, and then claw/claw/bite at +1.
Rerednaw 01-29-07, 04:57 PM	<dupe deleted>
Rerednaw 01-29-07, 05:00 PM	The natural attacks are natural attacks and not unarmed attacks. You use the normal natural attack damage, and the attack bonus you be your normal attack bonus -5, or -2 with multi-attack (which a troglodyte form gets). So if you are flurrying and using your natural attacks, and you have a BAB of +5, you would make 2 unarmed attacks at +3, and then claw/claw/bite at +1. 5 attacks? Um, page reference please! I'm sure a DM will accuse me of cheese when/if I try this. Thanks!
trollbill 01-29-07, 05:17 PM	5 attacks? Um, page reference please! I'm sure a DM will accuse me of cheese when/if I try this. Thanks! He will accuse you of that even with the page reference. :D
Jay_Ibero_911 01-29-07, 06:29 PM	5 attacks? Um, page reference please! I'm sure a DM will accuse me of cheese when/if I try this. Thanks! There's no page to reference really...well there is the part in the FAQ about flurry and natural attacks, but other than that it's nothing beyond normal rules...And it's not really that cheesy anyway, since all your attacks will have low bonuses and lousy damage anyway...unless you get uber buffed with fires of purity and stuff like that...
JamesMaissen 01-29-07, 06:56 PM	5 attacks? Um, page reference please! I'm sure a DM will accuse me of cheese when/if I try this. Thanks! It would be the combination of two things. First, unarmed strikes do not need to be with your hands (or teeth), but instead can be with elbows, knees and kicks as you desire. This is in the PhB. It is how a monk can hold things in his hands and still make unarmed strikes. I believe it is also further mentioned in the FAQ, but am not sure on that. Second would be in combining manufactured weapons and natural weapons. This is detailed in the monster manual. If you are using manufactured weapons (which monk unarmed strikes can count as) then you can still attack with any and all natural weapons as secondary natural weapons provided that they are available (ie claws holding a sword could not attack). Thus a troll monk could elect to attack in many ways: He could attack as a normal troll and make two primary claw attacks then a secondary bite attack. This is unlikely to be the case. He could instead attack with his unarmed routine by kicking. In this case he could still make 2 claw attacks as well as a bite, this time with all of them counted as secondary natural attacks (to hit penalty and 1/2str mod). This assumes that there is nothing in his hands to prevent their attacks (or anything preventing his bite attack). He could further elect to flurry which would be the same as the 2nd option but with more unarmed attacks and (possibly, depending on its monk levels) some penalty on all the round's attacks. He would still get the natural weapon attacks described above. Should he elect to have a kama (appropriately sized of course) in one hand then he could elect to make any number of his unarmed attacks attacks with the kama instead (as a normal monk can). The downside would be that by having a kama in hand he would not get the claw attack for said hand while he did so (even if he wasn't attacking with the kama). So a trog monk could elect to flurry with kicks and then make 2 claw attacks and a bite attack as secondary attacks. As a trog has multi-attack these natural attacks would suffer a -2 to hit instead of a -5 to hit from the primary value (the flurry penalty, if any, would apply as it applies to all attacks) and they would only give 1/2str mod to damage. It may seem strange but that's what it is. And DM's might have problem with it, but that's likely either because they haven't encountered it before or because they tend to have problems with players in general. -James
solbergb 01-29-07, 09:36 PM	I've seen two GM's that disliked it enough that I just didn't do it. They didn't have a rule to stand on, they just didn't like it and asked me not to, and I complied. Sometimes you have to give a little. OTOH, at one of those judge's tables I ran into my very first favorable table variation on drawing a potion as a weaponlike object (ie, he ruled that you CAN. We were flabbergasted :)). So you often get a little too.