Getting a decent Will save [Archive] - Wizards Community

Getting a decent Will save [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
awroe
03-16-07, 04:50 AM Standard problem - you build a Mutt, and it ends up with an abysmal will save - even if you have a straight fighter-type build it's still not great.

Apart from choosing different class levels, what can be done?

Things that come to mind:
Iron Will (Feat)
Cloak / Vest of Resistance
Item of +Wisdom

Also, what is a reasonable / good will save to be aiming for at different APLs?
opa
03-16-07, 06:34 AM depends on the character..

archers could take dips in monk or OOBI

I like a hexblade dip for full BAB guys that need that save higher...

True believer/pious Templar helps me too
cycloptic_squirrel
03-16-07, 07:03 AM Make friends with the cleric and beg for circles of protection. Won't up the will save, but will prevent domination. Can also ask for a conviction: +2 to +5 morale bonus on the saves for 10 min/level. Not exactly open access though. Hope your cleric buddy is a radiant servant of at least third level for the aura. If nothing else, the cleric can usually fix whateve ails ya, so stick close.

Along the same lines as the servent aura, hang out near paladins and holy liberators. And people with the destiny domain (free ally reroll/day).

If you ever see a wand of resurgence, grab it. Paladins usually don't memorize it, and there are UMD people out there. Won't stop nasty things, but might bring you out of the frying pan.

Being True Neutral seems to avoid many things.

I've heard of parties pre-fight dominating their own BDFs to prevent enchantments screwing with them.

Luckstone, amulet of fortune prevailing, theres an ion stone too; all these are on the spendy side though...

If you have an extra feat, true believer, survivor's luck, and unbeleiveable luck would all help.
Fey heritage could help depending on what you're trying to prevent.

Or you could just slip your DM five bucks. :P

No clue what's a decent will save. I'm only mid level, but I expect to run up against saves of ~12+APL on average (ballpark figure). I've certainly seen both higher and lower.
I've got one character almost tapping the 12+APL though :D
I've also got another near zero :(
LachlarlanIII
03-16-07, 11:01 AM Combat Focus + 2 more Combat feats gives you +4 to Will saves for the duration of most combats.

The other Combat feats aren't bad either.

Because they require 13+ Wis, if you take them, you'll probably be getting a +6 total boost before other bonuses. (Total includes Wis modifier)
LachlarlanIII
03-16-07, 11:03 AM No clue what's a decent will save. I'm only mid level, but I expect to run up against saves of ~12+APL on average (ballpark figure). I've certainly seen both higher and lower.
I've got one character almost tapping the 12+APL though :D
I've also got another near zero :(

A straight Fighter with a +18 Will save is pretty decent IMO.
Alpha_Nerd
03-16-07, 11:03 AM If you're a sneak attacker Wiz 1/Unseen Seer 2 is a solid dip that gives you +5 will along with other cool abilities.
Mommy was an Orc
03-16-07, 11:18 AM Standard problem - you build a Mutt, and it ends up with an abysmal will save - even if you have a straight fighter-type build it's still not great.

Monk 2 - 3 feats, evasion in light armor, +3 to all saves.
Pious Templar 4 - 2 feats(including Weapon Specialization usually by 9th to pick up Melee Weapon Mastery/Ranged Weapon Mastery at the same level)
Paladin 2 or Hexblade 2 if you have Charisma
Outcast Champion - Morale bonus to all will saves to anyone nearby you
Marshal - again, if you have charisma...

I've got a Fighter 12/Monk 2/Something 1 build in play. He's taking Combat Focus/Stabilization/Defense and Elusive Target by 6th. Then Monk 1-2. So at 8th level, once he hits something, he'll have a Will Save of +11(Fighter +2, Combat Focus +4, Wisdom +2, Monk +3) before magic items... :)

He's going to be one of those melee experts that really surprises the living daylights out of opponents.
trollbill
03-16-07, 12:27 PM Monk 2 - 3 feats, evasion in light armor, +3 to all saves.
Pious Templar 4 - 2 feats(including Weapon Specialization usually by 9th to pick up Melee Weapon Mastery/Ranged Weapon Mastery at the same level)
Paladin 2 or Hexblade 2 if you have Charisma
Outcast Champion - Morale bonus to all will saves to anyone nearby you
Marshal - again, if you have charisma...

I've got a Fighter 12/Monk 2/Something 1 build in play. He's taking Combat Focus/Stabilization/Defense and Elusive Target by 6th. Then Monk 1-2. So at 8th level, once he hits something, he'll have a Will Save of +11(Fighter +2, Combat Focus +4, Wisdom +2, Monk +3) before magic items... :)

He's going to be one of those melee experts that really surprises the living daylights out of opponents.

If you have Charisma, there is also Force of Personality. That's what I am taking next level with my 8 Wis, 18 Cha Sorcerer. Even though, as a Sorcerer, my Will save doesn't totally suck, a +5 bonus is hard to ignore. Sure beats Iron Will.
Jay_Ibero_911
03-16-07, 12:31 PM If you have Charisma, there is also Force of Personality. That's what I am taking next level with my 8 Wis, 18 Cha Sorcerer. Even though, as a Sorcerer, my Will save doesn't totally suck, a +5 bonus is hard to ignore. Sure beats Iron Will.

Bare in mind that Force of Personality only applies to mind-affecting spells and abilities. Won't give any extra protection against Harm for instance. On a similar note, Bright Sands characters can take Scorpion's Resolve, for +4 against mind affecting. My BS fighter type has it, and it's made the difference several times. Then of course if you are lucky, you get access to an item of permanent protection from evil. My one fighter type has that.
Eric Anondson
03-16-07, 03:10 PM Apart from taking class levels to get the +2 to Will saves, you could find classes that bolster against effects that are primarily will saves.

Holy Liberator gives immunity to charms and compulsions at 3rd level, while also requiring Iron Will.
Occult Slayer gives immunity to all mind-affecting effects at 5th level.
Church Inquisitor also gives immunity to charms, compulsions, and possession more gradually.
Paladins give divine grace (Cha bonus to all saves).
Holy Liberator also gives divine grace (Cha bonus to all saves).

I have a Rng3/ex-Mnk2/Brb1/Ftr2/HL7. With a vest of resistance +4, and his belt of magnificence +4 bolstering his stats, his saves are...

Fort: 28
Ref: 20
Will: 21

When raging:
Fort: 30
Ref: 20
Will: 23

plus evasion and immunity to charms and compulsions, he's not too afraid of saves. I pretty much only worry about not rolling 1s. Which is a good place to be for a front line fighter. :cool:
Golorious
03-16-07, 03:35 PM Don't forget that the new open base class Knight has strong will save progression as well.

Also Grey Guard from complete scoundrel has strong will save progression if you happen already have a few levels of paladin.
Eric Anondson
03-16-07, 04:00 PM The regional feats have a bunch of candidates.

While only a Fear focused feat, the Greyhawk regional feat World Weary will give you a +4 competence bonus to fear effects and reduces fear effects one lower. Panicked becomes frightened, frightened becomes shaken, shaken becomes normal.

The Pureblooded Suel regional feat grants a +1 bonus to all saves against spells and spell-like effects, among other non-save related things.

Exercises of Arnd regional feat, if you perform the Rite of Calm, grants +1 resistance bonus to all saves. Plus you get two other rites.

Badge of Bondage regional feat grants a +1 insight bonus on Fort and Will saves, among other non-save things.

Noble Soul regional feat +1 to Will saves, among other non-save things.

Raider's Spirit regional feat grants +4 to fear effects, among other non-save things.
Gaelforcwynd
03-17-07, 01:10 PM A level of Favoured Soul would give you +2 to all saves and access to three 1st level Divine spells.
Eric Anondson
03-18-07, 01:10 AM PHB2 has Indomitable Soul, requires Endurance and Iron Will, but when the character is affected by mind-affecting or fear ability the character rolls 2d20 and takes the best result. Helpful for anyone worried about Will saves.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
awroe 03-16-07, 04:50 AM	Standard problem - you build a Mutt, and it ends up with an abysmal will save - even if you have a straight fighter-type build it's still not great. Apart from choosing different class levels, what can be done? Things that come to mind: Iron Will (Feat) Cloak / Vest of Resistance Item of +Wisdom Also, what is a reasonable / good will save to be aiming for at different APLs?
opa 03-16-07, 06:34 AM	depends on the character.. archers could take dips in monk or OOBI I like a hexblade dip for full BAB guys that need that save higher... True believer/pious Templar helps me too
cycloptic_squirrel 03-16-07, 07:03 AM	Make friends with the cleric and beg for circles of protection. Won't up the will save, but will prevent domination. Can also ask for a conviction: +2 to +5 morale bonus on the saves for 10 min/level. Not exactly open access though. Hope your cleric buddy is a radiant servant of at least third level for the aura. If nothing else, the cleric can usually fix whateve ails ya, so stick close. Along the same lines as the servent aura, hang out near paladins and holy liberators. And people with the destiny domain (free ally reroll/day). If you ever see a wand of resurgence, grab it. Paladins usually don't memorize it, and there are UMD people out there. Won't stop nasty things, but might bring you out of the frying pan. Being True Neutral seems to avoid many things. I've heard of parties pre-fight dominating their own BDFs to prevent enchantments screwing with them. Luckstone, amulet of fortune prevailing, theres an ion stone too; all these are on the spendy side though... If you have an extra feat, true believer, survivor's luck, and unbeleiveable luck would all help. Fey heritage could help depending on what you're trying to prevent. Or you could just slip your DM five bucks. :P No clue what's a decent will save. I'm only mid level, but I expect to run up against saves of ~12+APL on average (ballpark figure). I've certainly seen both higher and lower. I've got one character almost tapping the 12+APL though :D I've also got another near zero :(
LachlarlanIII 03-16-07, 11:01 AM	Combat Focus + 2 more Combat feats gives you +4 to Will saves for the duration of most combats. The other Combat feats aren't bad either. Because they require 13+ Wis, if you take them, you'll probably be getting a +6 total boost before other bonuses. (Total includes Wis modifier)
LachlarlanIII 03-16-07, 11:03 AM	No clue what's a decent will save. I'm only mid level, but I expect to run up against saves of ~12+APL on average (ballpark figure). I've certainly seen both higher and lower. I've got one character almost tapping the 12+APL though :D I've also got another near zero :( A straight Fighter with a +18 Will save is pretty decent IMO.
Alpha_Nerd 03-16-07, 11:03 AM	If you're a sneak attacker Wiz 1/Unseen Seer 2 is a solid dip that gives you +5 will along with other cool abilities.
Mommy was an Orc 03-16-07, 11:18 AM	Standard problem - you build a Mutt, and it ends up with an abysmal will save - even if you have a straight fighter-type build it's still not great. Monk 2 - 3 feats, evasion in light armor, +3 to all saves. Pious Templar 4 - 2 feats(including Weapon Specialization usually by 9th to pick up Melee Weapon Mastery/Ranged Weapon Mastery at the same level) Paladin 2 or Hexblade 2 if you have Charisma Outcast Champion - Morale bonus to all will saves to anyone nearby you Marshal - again, if you have charisma... I've got a Fighter 12/Monk 2/Something 1 build in play. He's taking Combat Focus/Stabilization/Defense and Elusive Target by 6th. Then Monk 1-2. So at 8th level, once he hits something, he'll have a Will Save of +11(Fighter +2, Combat Focus +4, Wisdom +2, Monk +3) before magic items... :) He's going to be one of those melee experts that really surprises the living daylights out of opponents.
trollbill 03-16-07, 12:27 PM	Monk 2 - 3 feats, evasion in light armor, +3 to all saves. Pious Templar 4 - 2 feats(including Weapon Specialization usually by 9th to pick up Melee Weapon Mastery/Ranged Weapon Mastery at the same level) Paladin 2 or Hexblade 2 if you have Charisma Outcast Champion - Morale bonus to all will saves to anyone nearby you Marshal - again, if you have charisma... I've got a Fighter 12/Monk 2/Something 1 build in play. He's taking Combat Focus/Stabilization/Defense and Elusive Target by 6th. Then Monk 1-2. So at 8th level, once he hits something, he'll have a Will Save of +11(Fighter +2, Combat Focus +4, Wisdom +2, Monk +3) before magic items... :) He's going to be one of those melee experts that really surprises the living daylights out of opponents. If you have Charisma, there is also Force of Personality. That's what I am taking next level with my 8 Wis, 18 Cha Sorcerer. Even though, as a Sorcerer, my Will save doesn't totally suck, a +5 bonus is hard to ignore. Sure beats Iron Will.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-16-07, 12:31 PM	If you have Charisma, there is also Force of Personality. That's what I am taking next level with my 8 Wis, 18 Cha Sorcerer. Even though, as a Sorcerer, my Will save doesn't totally suck, a +5 bonus is hard to ignore. Sure beats Iron Will. Bare in mind that Force of Personality only applies to mind-affecting spells and abilities. Won't give any extra protection against Harm for instance. On a similar note, Bright Sands characters can take Scorpion's Resolve, for +4 against mind affecting. My BS fighter type has it, and it's made the difference several times. Then of course if you are lucky, you get access to an item of permanent protection from evil. My one fighter type has that.
Eric Anondson 03-16-07, 03:10 PM	Apart from taking class levels to get the +2 to Will saves, you could find classes that bolster against effects that are primarily will saves. Holy Liberator gives immunity to charms and compulsions at 3rd level, while also requiring Iron Will. Occult Slayer gives immunity to all mind-affecting effects at 5th level. Church Inquisitor also gives immunity to charms, compulsions, and possession more gradually. Paladins give divine grace (Cha bonus to all saves). Holy Liberator also gives divine grace (Cha bonus to all saves). I have a Rng3/ex-Mnk2/Brb1/Ftr2/HL7. With a vest of resistance +4, and his belt of magnificence +4 bolstering his stats, his saves are... Fort: 28 Ref: 20 Will: 21 When raging: Fort: 30 Ref: 20 Will: 23 plus evasion and immunity to charms and compulsions, he's not too afraid of saves. I pretty much only worry about not rolling 1s. Which is a good place to be for a front line fighter. :cool:
Golorious 03-16-07, 03:35 PM	Don't forget that the new open base class Knight has strong will save progression as well. Also Grey Guard from complete scoundrel has strong will save progression if you happen already have a few levels of paladin.
Eric Anondson 03-16-07, 04:00 PM	The regional feats have a bunch of candidates. While only a Fear focused feat, the Greyhawk regional feat World Weary will give you a +4 competence bonus to fear effects and reduces fear effects one lower. Panicked becomes frightened, frightened becomes shaken, shaken becomes normal. The Pureblooded Suel regional feat grants a +1 bonus to all saves against spells and spell-like effects, among other non-save related things. Exercises of Arnd regional feat, if you perform the Rite of Calm, grants +1 resistance bonus to all saves. Plus you get two other rites. Badge of Bondage regional feat grants a +1 insight bonus on Fort and Will saves, among other non-save things. Noble Soul regional feat +1 to Will saves, among other non-save things. Raider's Spirit regional feat grants +4 to fear effects, among other non-save things.
Gaelforcwynd 03-17-07, 01:10 PM	A level of Favoured Soul would give you +2 to all saves and access to three 1st level Divine spells.
Eric Anondson 03-18-07, 01:10 AM	PHB2 has Indomitable Soul, requires Endurance and Iron Will, but when the character is affected by mind-affecting or fear ability the character rolls 2d20 and takes the best result. Helpful for anyone worried about Will saves.