Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jstorrie 03-16-08, 05:35 PM	I haven't started a GHR character yet, and am considering a Cuthbertine Nightwatchman. Here's what I've got so far for my potential build– LG Human (Suloise) Str 16 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 8 Cha 16 1 Knight: Weapon Focus (Greatclub), Power Attack 2 Fighter: Cleave 3 Paladin of St. Cuthbert: Improved Bull Rush 4 Paladin 5 Paladin 6 Paladin: Divine Might 7 Fighter: Shock Trooper 8 Divine Crusader of St. Cuthbert (Strength) 9 Divine Crusader: Three Mountains Style 10 Divine Crusader 11 Divine Crusader 12 Divine Crusader: Weapon Specialization (Greatclub), Melee Weapon Mastery (Greatclub) 13 Divine Crusader 14 Divine Crusader 15 Divine Crusader: Leadership I've tried as much as possible to build for melee synergy, here; almost every ability of the character takes up a different sort of action, and they're spread out across the build so that each level or so (after 5, anyway) adds a new ability to the character. Divine Crusader not only gives the Strength domain power (comparable in power to Divine Might, and stackable!) but a lot of great buffing spells, including Enlarge Person, Stoneskin, and Righteous Might. Righteous Might especially has great synergy with Cleave, Shock Trooper, and Three Mountains Style. Hopefully Divine Might + smites + challenges can make up for delaying MWM until 12 in a melee build. Anyone have any ideas on how I can tweak this further?
UMiskatonic 03-16-08, 11:32 PM	Take Maul from complete warrior instead of greatclub, a better two-handed blunt weapon. Then, take the exotic feat at some point, and a level of Exotic Weapon Master. Will do wonders for damage, and allows you to fight with a large shield if you need more AC and want to slow a fight down. I'd start with Power Attack and Cleave, grap weapon focus later. You're likely to see a lot of low-level humanoids early on, who would be great for cleave.
jstorrie 03-17-08, 01:13 AM	I don't know if that's doable. An EWM lesson would delay Divine Crusader such that I couldn't take MWM at 12.
jstorrie 03-17-08, 02:29 AM	Given that the Strength domain power is an enhancement bonus, which will overlap on a lot of things, I'm thinking an interesting alternative would be Domination domain–Charisma is pretty high, free Spell Focus is good, and no one expects the paladin to start dropping Dominate Persons. Would allow Unsettling Enchantment as a 15th level feat, too–Greater Command + Unsettling Enchantment is a kind of neat group debuff, I guess.
UMiskatonic 03-17-08, 11:34 AM	Man, there's a lot of things you COULD do.... The Maul idea is a tradeoff. It's a better weapon all along, but it does affect levels 12-15 and feat choices. The domain choice will really affect the feel of this character. It's up to you. You might be able to jam another PrC in there, and use it to advance your divine crusader casting. Any of those +1 divine caster level classes should do, but getting in will be tough, you don't have any feats left to qualify.
dkay807 03-17-08, 11:47 AM	Let me start off by saying your original concept is VERY cool. It's also very stylish. In true St. Cuthbert flavor, I would stick with greatclub and Three Mountains style. I think it outweighs the slight damage bump you'd get from EWM (which would at most be like +4 damage). Don't forget the EWP feat and level you have to sink to even get that bonus. Getting MWM at 12 is clutch and not something I would put off any more than you already have. Furthermore, Greatclub is a unique weapon that works well with Spikes. If I were playing a Cleric or Druid and you were at my table, I'd have at least two Spikes spells prepped just for you. Granted you'll have a tougher time with damage reduction, but those silly adamantine DR weapon crystals are pretty common. With your 8 Wisdom score, I would see if you can find access to the Holy Warrior alternative class feature for Paladins. You can give up your spellcasting ability for another feat. With that said, you might be able to afford to go Fighter 1/Paladin 4/Pious Templar 2 or Fighter 2/Paladin 4/Pious Templar 1 as an alternative to the Knight level. Go with your original build idea. I think it's solid and it seems fun.
jstorrie 03-17-08, 02:13 PM	What do you think about the relative values of St. Cuthbert's domains for a Divine Crusader? Destruction–a smite power, but awful spell list (Inflicts) Domination–Spell Focus: Enchantment, quite good spell list made up of offensive enchantment spells Good–bad power, mediocre spell list Law–awful power, fair spell list Inquisition–useless power for someone with low caster level; interesting utility spell list Protection–fairly decent power, fairly good spell list (Pro Energy, Antimagic Field) Strength–kind of useless domain power (overlaps with Belt of Giant Strength) but great spell list for self-buffing I'm definitely leaning towards Protection, Domination or Strength, but not sure which will be the bestest. If Str had a better domain power it'd be a shoe-in, but it wouldn't crest a Belt of Giant Str +4 until level 12.
UMiskatonic 03-17-08, 02:29 PM	Given that the character concept is 'smack hard with hammer', I'd go with either protection or strength. Either way, you'll be able to make up the difference with magic items. It's up to you whether you would rather carry around a potion of resist energy, or a potion of bull's strength. Personally, I like Strength for flavor. Just remember, it's cast one spell, and move up. Don't be one of those self-buffing jokesters who comes in on round five.
dkay807 03-17-08, 02:55 PM	What do you think about the relative values of St. Cuthbert's domains for a Divine Crusader? Destruction–a smite power, but awful spell list (Inflicts) Domination–Spell Focus: Enchantment, quite good spell list made up of offensive enchantment spells Good–bad power, mediocre spell list Law–awful power, fair spell list Inquisition–useless power for someone with low caster level; interesting utility spell list Protection–fairly decent power, fairly good spell list (Pro Energy, Antimagic Field) Strength–kind of useless domain power (overlaps with Belt of Giant Strength) but great spell list for self-buffing I'm definitely leaning towards Protection, Domination or Strength, but not sure which will be the bestest. If Str had a better domain power it'd be a shoe-in, but it wouldn't crest a Belt of Giant Str +4 until level 12. In all honesty, I think St. Cuthbert's domains are terrible, which is kind of upsetting since I think he's one of the most stylish Greyhawk deities. The best domains for a Divine Crusader are Competition and Destiny without a doubt. Now, having said that, I don't think you should sacrifice style or your overall character concept just to have a better domain as a Divine Crusader. Based on the St. Cuthbert options, I would go with Strength or Protection. Righteous Might is very nice for a melee PC (despite the fact that you have to take the time to buff) and Enlarge Person can be helpful at times (though I would expect a caster in the party to carry it for me if I needed it). Protection has some helpful defensive spells overall.
boolean 03-17-08, 10:56 PM	How are you getting Weapon Spec. (Greatclub)? St. Cuthbert's favoured weapon is listed as :"Club or mace". The weapon of the deity entry lists that it applies to light maces and heavy maces, but it only specifies clubs, not greatclubs. (This also means that you don't qualify for Divine Crusader, either.)
MwaO 03-17-08, 11:39 PM	How are you getting Weapon Spec. (Greatclub)? St. Cuthbert's favoured weapon is listed as :"Club or mace". The weapon of the deity entry lists that it applies to light maces and heavy maces, but it only specifies clubs, not greatclubs. (This also means that you don't qualify for Divine Crusader, either.) I'm not sure about that either - in order for you to take any weapon of a particular kind, it has to specify that you can take any - such as Hextor with martial flails or Kelanen with martial weapons. Also, if no (e) or (m) appears, that means the weapon is by default a simple weapon.
magebeast 03-17-08, 11:40 PM	How are you getting Weapon Spec. (Greatclub)? St. Cuthbert's favoured weapon is listed as :"Club or mace". The weapon of the deity entry lists that it applies to light maces and heavy maces, but it only specifies clubs, not greatclubs. (This also means that you don't qualify for Divine Crusader, either.) Greatclub: A greatclub is a two-handed version of a regular club. It is often studded with nails or spikes or ringed by bands of iron. I really, really think it's close enough. I'm not sure about that either - in order for you to take any weapon of a particular kind, it has to specify that you can take any - such as Hextor with martial flails or Kelanen with martial weapons. Also, if no (e) or (m) appears, that means the weapon is by default a simple weapon. Oh. Well I think that particular bit of crunch sucks in light of the description of the greatclub but I guess it overrides.
UMiskatonic 03-18-08, 12:05 AM	But it's St. Cuthbert of the cudgel..... I say you tell everyone that you use a greatcudgel, and see which DMs have the moxie to invalidate your entire character concept. Plus, who cares, since you've got a LONG way to go before you're of a level to care. And I know you've got other characters as well...
UMiskatonic 03-18-08, 12:11 AM	You could dual-wield clubs, I suppose. But, I don't like the idea, on account of "it's silly".
jstorrie 03-18-08, 01:27 AM	To be fair, by your interpretation, MWaO, Cuthbertines don't use light maces or heavy maces, either–since neither is specified. But there's no such weapon as 'mace.' Which is unfortunate, because I was going to say, 'well, he could just use a heavy mace, it's only 1d8 versus 1d10, no big deal.' A club is definitely not in consideration, since clubs are light weapons and can't be power-attacked with.
MwaO 03-18-08, 09:02 AM	To be fair, by your interpretation, MWaO, Cuthbertines don't use light maces or heavy maces, either–since neither is specified. But there's no such weapon as 'mace.' Which is unfortunate, because I was going to say, 'well, he could just use a heavy mace, it's only 1d8 versus 1d10, no big deal.' A club is definitely not in consideration, since clubs are light weapons and can't be power-attacked with. That gets clarified by the Weapon of Deity spell description. It only uses the Favored Weapon of the deity. So as it uses club, light mace, or heavy mace... You can use a heavy mace.
UMiskatonic 03-18-08, 11:30 AM	The deities document might have something to say here.... I'm at work, so I'll let someone else find it.
boolean 03-18-08, 07:05 PM	The deities document might have something to say here.... I'm at work, so I'll let someone else find it. The LG Deities document is what I was referencing.
UMiskatonic 03-19-08, 03:52 PM	Well, that's too bad. Personally, I'd still go with it. Carry around a second edition description of St. Cuthbert, and moan a lot about "But it's canon" if challenged. But that's just me. You may prefer to stay inside the rules completely, and not be a whining jerk about things.
jstorrie 03-19-08, 07:37 PM	I'll just ask my DMs before games if they consider the greatclub a club or not. If they don't, I'll call it a heavy mace and not be particularly sad about d8 instead of d10. The build's a beast anyway.
Timlagor 03-20-08, 10:52 AM	You can't just "call it a heavy mace". They are different weapons and you have to choose which to buy -you could buy both and use the one that's apporpriate but once you start enchanting it that would be rather expensive.
jstorrie 03-20-08, 01:37 PM	I think that's being particularly **** about the rules, don't you, Timlagor? If there wasn't ambiguity in the rules document I wouldn't have this problem in the first place. Why not just leave the decision up to DMs and forego the lawyering in favour of getting down to having fun?
jstorrie 03-20-08, 01:38 PM	Man, I wasn't even swearing. Nice wordfilter, Wizards.
TetsujinOni 03-21-08, 11:33 AM	I'll just ask my DMs before games if they consider the greatclub a club or not. If they don't, I'll call it a heavy mace and not be particularly sad about d8 instead of d10. The build's a beast anyway. Use the heavy mace and avoid the issues. I would have a real problem if your MIL says greatclub and you were not only calling it a heavy mace, but asserting the rules benefits of it being a heavy mace. It's one item, or the other. I would view it as cheating to call it both depending upon the table you were at.
Timlagor 03-21-08, 01:14 PM	No I don't Jstorrie ..but that's not the point. There will definitely be GMs who consider that to be cheating.
TWG_Prometheus 03-26-08, 05:32 PM	I don't really understand why people sometimes like to come up with convoluted explanations for gaining small advantages when it exposes them to table variation or, worse, illegal build problems. Use the heavy mace.
Iswald 03-28-08, 10:09 AM	I'll just ask my DMs before games if they consider the greatclub a club or not. If they don't, I'll call it a heavy mace and not be particularly sad about d8 instead of d10. The build's a beast anyway. It's only 1 point of damage difference on average. Why make a big deal out of it? If you wanted to drop the three mountains style, you could change to warmace which will work as a favored weapon of St. Cuthbert.