GHR Paladin-Monk [Archive] - Wizards Community

GHR Paladin-Monk [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
KShaver
08-14-07, 11:47 AM I think I'm finally close on what I'll use for GHR, this paladin build combines some wearing heavy armor with the massive unarmed damage of a monk and the synergy of decisive strike and its ability to double significant single attack damage bonuses (like power attack and smite). Some perks of the build are that the character should be fun to roleplay, doesn't have any problematic power gaps while leveling, has all around decent saves, and he can fight well enough without any equipment if needed.

Human Male
Str 16, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 14

1. Paladin - Power Attack, Cleave
2. Paladin
3. Monk - Ascetic Knight, Alt Class Feature: Decisive Strike, Stunning Fist
4. Monk - Deflect Arrows, Strength +1
5+ Paladin

Other Advancement after 5th: 6-Extra Smiting, 7-Alt Class Ability: Divine Spirit, 9-Divine Might, 12-Improved Natural Attack, 15-??(feat)

Throw heavy plate and a shield on their and he's got decent armor class for not too much effort. Primary magic items to go for are gauntlets of ogre power, monk's belt, and a cloak of charisma.

I was thinking paladin of Heironious, but Cuthbertians can join the Nightwatch and their church affiliation and get a bonus instead of a penalty.
jstorrie
08-14-07, 03:29 PM If you're using Decisive Strike you may as well use a quarterstaff and no shield (so that you get your 2H damage.)

Since there are no special Monk weapons with reach (so no Combat Reflexes abuse) I think that Decisive Strike works best with Opportunist–Rogue 10/Monk1 or Monk1/fill 6/Nightsong Enforcer 6. I would probably do Monk 3 / Fighter 4 / Nightsong Enforcer 8, though you could also do Monk 2 / Fighter 4 / Exotic Weapon Master 1 / Nightsong Enforcer 8 with a lajatang or longstaff. Combat Brute could help here.

Paladin smite is not going to work all that well because your stat spread will not give you much leeway to bump Charisma–and you can't mix it with Charging Smite or Shock Trooper, either. Pious Templar smite might be okay.
Arassuil
08-14-07, 03:58 PM I wonder if it'd be worthwhile to take some of the Monk feats available in PH2? Like getting Fiery Fist at 2nd instead of Deflect Arrows. Since you only have a wisdom of 12, the DC of your Stunning Fists aren't going to be all that high. Plus it'll give you some versatility (and an extra Stunning Fist attempt per day).

I know, an extra 1d6 fire damage for 1 round isn't a lot, but it'll let you use your Stunning Fist attempts for something when your facing something immune to crits.

Having played a Paladin as my first LG character, I came to realize that after about 4th or 6th level, Paladin loses some steam. Too bad I can't think of an alternative instead of continuing Paladin for your build. The only thing that comes to mind is Sacred Fist, if you can live with the restrictions of only attacking with unarmed strikes.

Of course, if the spell Greater Mighty Wallop will ever be allowed in LG, the Leadership feat with a Sorcerer/Wizard cohort casting it on your fist would help a great deal. ;)
Wyvernhand
08-14-07, 04:10 PM Too bad your wisdom is not a bit higher. There are a couple of paladin spells from races of stone that are pretty amazing. One is earth hammer, and I always forget the name of the other. They are level 2 and 3 spells respectively. Since one is swift, you can cast both as your single buff round, and then get ready to hit stuff hard. One of the spells sets your unarmed damage up to 2d6. the other increase your weapon size by one catagory with respect to damage (3d6). They also make your unarmed attack count as both cold iron and adamantine. Not too bad, if you ask me. Add in fiery fists and smite, and you got a decent amount of damage flying in, even if it's only for one attack in a round.

Just curious, can you combine decisive strike with spring attack? That to me would be the best way to get the most mileage out of a single attack. Of course, heavy armor would kill your movement rate....oh well.
Arassuil
08-14-07, 04:32 PM Just curious, can you combine decisive strike with spring attack? That to me would be the best way to get the most mileage out of a single attack. Of course, heavy armor would kill your movement rate....oh well.

I believe to use Decisive Strike, you have to use a full round action.
KShaver
08-14-07, 04:47 PM If you're using Decisive Strike you may as well use a quarterstaff and no shield (so that you get your 2H damage.)

I thought about it, but trading the shield for str and a half also traded monk unarmed damage for a straight d6. Damage is about the same either way and the shield gives higher AC.

Paladin smite is not going to work all that well because your stat spread will not give you much leeway to bump Charisma–and you can't mix it with Charging Smite or Shock Trooper, either. Pious Templar smite might be okay.

Right it doesn't mix with much, but using ascetic knight rewards the higher paladin levels with full monk unarmed damage. With improved natural and a monks belt the character's unarmed single swing tops out at one step past 2d10 (2d12?). That kind of basic damage doubled helps keep the average damage up without having to go to too much effort. Without power attack mixed in (i.e. actually having a darn good chance of hitting) I can easily figure doing 70+ damage on a smite by 15th.
KShaver
08-14-07, 04:52 PM I wonder if it'd be worthwhile to take some of the Monk feats available in PH2? Like getting Fiery Fist at 2nd instead of Deflect Arrows. Since you only have a wisdom of 12, the DC of your Stunning Fists aren't going to be all that high. Plus it'll give you some versatility (and an extra Stunning Fist attempt per day).

Thats an option I'm still considering. You are correct that fiery fist is quite versatile even if it doesn't add a lot of damage on its own.

I realize the stunning fist DC isn't that high, but at least its not based on monk levels and decisive strike boosts it up a bit. So stunning fist is staying, just a matter of what to take for the 2nd level monk feat.
Jay_Ibero_911
08-14-07, 05:09 PM I thought about it, but trading the shield for str and a half also traded monk unarmed damage for a straight d6. Damage is about the same either way and the shield gives higher AC.

Actually You trade unarmed damage for strength and a half AND double power attack damage. End up with 30-40 damage better.
KShaver
08-14-07, 08:18 PM Actually You trade unarmed damage for strength and a half AND double power attack damage. End up with 30-40 damage better.

I hadn't considered the power attack portion of it. Power attack was more of an afterthought, to be used when it could be squeezed in. Base damage, and regular smite damage would be very similar between the styles, but you are correct, power attack damage would add up incredibly fast with decisive strike.

My math, counting max power attack, divine might, smite and about equivalent stat gear for a 15th level character:

Bare Handed - (2d12+5+5+15+14)x2 = 104 avg

Quarterstaff - (d6+10+5+15+14)x2 = 123 avg

The break point is about 6 points of power attack, anything less and the character does more bare handed. Of course the staff character has more strength (belt +6 for him vs gloves +2 and monk belt for the bare hander, 16k vs 17k close enough) and thus can spare a couple more BAB on each swing.

The other breaking point is if gauntlets will be allowed to add enhancement bonus to unarmed strikes. If not, then the staff obviously pulls ahead a little more in damage. If it is allowed then both go up at the same rate with enhancements added in.
DuctShuiTengu
08-14-07, 09:19 PM I hadn't considered the power attack portion of it. Power attack was more of an afterthought, to be used when it could be squeezed in. Base damage, and regular smite damage would be very similar between the styles, but you are correct, power attack damage would add up incredibly fast with decisive strike.

My math, counting max power attack, divine might, smite and about equivalent stat gear for a 15th level character:

Bare Handed - (2d12+5+5+15+14)x2 = 104 avg

Quarterstaff - (d6+10+5+15+14)x2 = 123 avg

The break point is about 6 points of power attack, anything less and the character does more bare handed. Of course the staff character has more strength (belt +6 for him vs gloves +2 and monk belt for the bare hander, 16k vs 17k close enough) and thus can spare a couple more BAB on each swing.

The other breaking point is if gauntlets will be allowed to add enhancement bonus to unarmed strikes. If not, then the staff obviously pulls ahead a little more in damage. If it is allowed then both go up at the same rate with enhancements added in.

There's also the option of carrying a staff and a buckler. If something looks like it has a low enough AC to be worth power attacking, you can smack it with the quarterstaff. Otherwise, you can hold the quarterstaff in your off hand and punch.
Jay_Ibero_911
08-14-07, 09:24 PM There's also the option of carrying a staff and a buckler. If something looks like it has a low enough AC to be worth power attacking, you can smack it with the quarterstaff. Otherwise, you can hold the quarterstaff in your off hand and punch.

He wouldn't need to hold the quarterstaff in his off hand. Monk unarmed strike does not need a free hand.
DuctShuiTengu
08-15-07, 01:52 AM He wouldn't need to hold the quarterstaff in his off hand. Monk unarmed strike does not need a free hand.

Point. I'd forgotten that part.
Wyvernhand
08-15-07, 05:48 PM He'll be getting paladin spells, and some are pretty decent. Earth Hammer, from RoS, would up your unarmed damage by one catagory (or your QS to a massive d8) and don't forget about Holy Sword. With Holy Sword, the need for weapon enhancements is pretty moot. 1 round buffing to cast Holy Sword and the swift Earth Hammer would result in some pretty slick bonuses for the rest of the combat, plus a weapon that counts as adamantine and good aligned, which gets by all DR but the top tier demons and most vampires. You could also buy/craft pearls 3 and 4 to recover those spells after each encounter, allowing you to buff those at every encounter. Plus, even at lower levels, you can divine sacrifice on a decisive strike for a bit more damage. Paladin spells are actually pretty badass for their respective levels....
magebeast
08-15-07, 06:04 PM He'll be getting paladin spells, and some are pretty decent. Earth Hammer, from RoS, would up your unarmed damage by one catagory (or your QS to a massive d8) and don't forget about Holy Sword. With Holy Sword, the need for weapon enhancements is pretty moot. 1 round buffing to cast Holy Sword and the swift Earth Hammer would result in some pretty slick bonuses for the rest of the combat, plus a weapon that counts as adamantine and good aligned, which gets by all DR but the top tier demons and most vampires. You could also buy/craft pearls 3 and 4 to recover those spells after each encounter, allowing you to buff those at every encounter. Plus, even at lower levels, you can divine sacrifice on a decisive strike for a bit more damage. Paladin spells are actually pretty badass for their respective levels....

Don't you have to be a Dwarf for all the DR bypassing goodness?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
KShaver 08-14-07, 11:47 AM	I think I'm finally close on what I'll use for GHR, this paladin build combines some wearing heavy armor with the massive unarmed damage of a monk and the synergy of decisive strike and its ability to double significant single attack damage bonuses (like power attack and smite). Some perks of the build are that the character should be fun to roleplay, doesn't have any problematic power gaps while leveling, has all around decent saves, and he can fight well enough without any equipment if needed. Human Male Str 16, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 14 1. Paladin - Power Attack, Cleave 2. Paladin 3. Monk - Ascetic Knight, Alt Class Feature: Decisive Strike, Stunning Fist 4. Monk - Deflect Arrows, Strength +1 5+ Paladin Other Advancement after 5th: 6-Extra Smiting, 7-Alt Class Ability: Divine Spirit, 9-Divine Might, 12-Improved Natural Attack, 15-??(feat) Throw heavy plate and a shield on their and he's got decent armor class for not too much effort. Primary magic items to go for are gauntlets of ogre power, monk's belt, and a cloak of charisma. I was thinking paladin of Heironious, but Cuthbertians can join the Nightwatch and their church affiliation and get a bonus instead of a penalty.
jstorrie 08-14-07, 03:29 PM	If you're using Decisive Strike you may as well use a quarterstaff and no shield (so that you get your 2H damage.) Since there are no special Monk weapons with reach (so no Combat Reflexes abuse) I think that Decisive Strike works best with Opportunist–Rogue 10/Monk1 or Monk1/fill 6/Nightsong Enforcer 6. I would probably do Monk 3 / Fighter 4 / Nightsong Enforcer 8, though you could also do Monk 2 / Fighter 4 / Exotic Weapon Master 1 / Nightsong Enforcer 8 with a lajatang or longstaff. Combat Brute could help here. Paladin smite is not going to work all that well because your stat spread will not give you much leeway to bump Charisma–and you can't mix it with Charging Smite or Shock Trooper, either. Pious Templar smite might be okay.
Arassuil 08-14-07, 03:58 PM	I wonder if it'd be worthwhile to take some of the Monk feats available in PH2? Like getting Fiery Fist at 2nd instead of Deflect Arrows. Since you only have a wisdom of 12, the DC of your Stunning Fists aren't going to be all that high. Plus it'll give you some versatility (and an extra Stunning Fist attempt per day). I know, an extra 1d6 fire damage for 1 round isn't a lot, but it'll let you use your Stunning Fist attempts for something when your facing something immune to crits. Having played a Paladin as my first LG character, I came to realize that after about 4th or 6th level, Paladin loses some steam. Too bad I can't think of an alternative instead of continuing Paladin for your build. The only thing that comes to mind is Sacred Fist, if you can live with the restrictions of only attacking with unarmed strikes. Of course, if the spell Greater Mighty Wallop will ever be allowed in LG, the Leadership feat with a Sorcerer/Wizard cohort casting it on your fist would help a great deal. ;)
Wyvernhand 08-14-07, 04:10 PM	Too bad your wisdom is not a bit higher. There are a couple of paladin spells from races of stone that are pretty amazing. One is earth hammer, and I always forget the name of the other. They are level 2 and 3 spells respectively. Since one is swift, you can cast both as your single buff round, and then get ready to hit stuff hard. One of the spells sets your unarmed damage up to 2d6. the other increase your weapon size by one catagory with respect to damage (3d6). They also make your unarmed attack count as both cold iron and adamantine. Not too bad, if you ask me. Add in fiery fists and smite, and you got a decent amount of damage flying in, even if it's only for one attack in a round. Just curious, can you combine decisive strike with spring attack? That to me would be the best way to get the most mileage out of a single attack. Of course, heavy armor would kill your movement rate....oh well.
Arassuil 08-14-07, 04:32 PM	Just curious, can you combine decisive strike with spring attack? That to me would be the best way to get the most mileage out of a single attack. Of course, heavy armor would kill your movement rate....oh well. I believe to use Decisive Strike, you have to use a full round action.
KShaver 08-14-07, 04:47 PM	If you're using Decisive Strike you may as well use a quarterstaff and no shield (so that you get your 2H damage.) I thought about it, but trading the shield for str and a half also traded monk unarmed damage for a straight d6. Damage is about the same either way and the shield gives higher AC. Paladin smite is not going to work all that well because your stat spread will not give you much leeway to bump Charisma–and you can't mix it with Charging Smite or Shock Trooper, either. Pious Templar smite might be okay. Right it doesn't mix with much, but using ascetic knight rewards the higher paladin levels with full monk unarmed damage. With improved natural and a monks belt the character's unarmed single swing tops out at one step past 2d10 (2d12?). That kind of basic damage doubled helps keep the average damage up without having to go to too much effort. Without power attack mixed in (i.e. actually having a darn good chance of hitting) I can easily figure doing 70+ damage on a smite by 15th.
KShaver 08-14-07, 04:52 PM	I wonder if it'd be worthwhile to take some of the Monk feats available in PH2? Like getting Fiery Fist at 2nd instead of Deflect Arrows. Since you only have a wisdom of 12, the DC of your Stunning Fists aren't going to be all that high. Plus it'll give you some versatility (and an extra Stunning Fist attempt per day). Thats an option I'm still considering. You are correct that fiery fist is quite versatile even if it doesn't add a lot of damage on its own. I realize the stunning fist DC isn't that high, but at least its not based on monk levels and decisive strike boosts it up a bit. So stunning fist is staying, just a matter of what to take for the 2nd level monk feat.
Jay_Ibero_911 08-14-07, 05:09 PM	I thought about it, but trading the shield for str and a half also traded monk unarmed damage for a straight d6. Damage is about the same either way and the shield gives higher AC. Actually You trade unarmed damage for strength and a half AND double power attack damage. End up with 30-40 damage better.
KShaver 08-14-07, 08:18 PM	Actually You trade unarmed damage for strength and a half AND double power attack damage. End up with 30-40 damage better. I hadn't considered the power attack portion of it. Power attack was more of an afterthought, to be used when it could be squeezed in. Base damage, and regular smite damage would be very similar between the styles, but you are correct, power attack damage would add up incredibly fast with decisive strike. My math, counting max power attack, divine might, smite and about equivalent stat gear for a 15th level character: Bare Handed - (2d12+5+5+15+14)x2 = 104 avg Quarterstaff - (d6+10+5+15+14)x2 = 123 avg The break point is about 6 points of power attack, anything less and the character does more bare handed. Of course the staff character has more strength (belt +6 for him vs gloves +2 and monk belt for the bare hander, 16k vs 17k close enough) and thus can spare a couple more BAB on each swing. The other breaking point is if gauntlets will be allowed to add enhancement bonus to unarmed strikes. If not, then the staff obviously pulls ahead a little more in damage. If it is allowed then both go up at the same rate with enhancements added in.
DuctShuiTengu 08-14-07, 09:19 PM	I hadn't considered the power attack portion of it. Power attack was more of an afterthought, to be used when it could be squeezed in. Base damage, and regular smite damage would be very similar between the styles, but you are correct, power attack damage would add up incredibly fast with decisive strike. My math, counting max power attack, divine might, smite and about equivalent stat gear for a 15th level character: Bare Handed - (2d12+5+5+15+14)x2 = 104 avg Quarterstaff - (d6+10+5+15+14)x2 = 123 avg The break point is about 6 points of power attack, anything less and the character does more bare handed. Of course the staff character has more strength (belt +6 for him vs gloves +2 and monk belt for the bare hander, 16k vs 17k close enough) and thus can spare a couple more BAB on each swing. The other breaking point is if gauntlets will be allowed to add enhancement bonus to unarmed strikes. If not, then the staff obviously pulls ahead a little more in damage. If it is allowed then both go up at the same rate with enhancements added in. There's also the option of carrying a staff and a buckler. If something looks like it has a low enough AC to be worth power attacking, you can smack it with the quarterstaff. Otherwise, you can hold the quarterstaff in your off hand and punch.
Jay_Ibero_911 08-14-07, 09:24 PM	There's also the option of carrying a staff and a buckler. If something looks like it has a low enough AC to be worth power attacking, you can smack it with the quarterstaff. Otherwise, you can hold the quarterstaff in your off hand and punch. He wouldn't need to hold the quarterstaff in his off hand. Monk unarmed strike does not need a free hand.
DuctShuiTengu 08-15-07, 01:52 AM	He wouldn't need to hold the quarterstaff in his off hand. Monk unarmed strike does not need a free hand. Point. I'd forgotten that part.
Wyvernhand 08-15-07, 05:48 PM	He'll be getting paladin spells, and some are pretty decent. Earth Hammer, from RoS, would up your unarmed damage by one catagory (or your QS to a massive d8) and don't forget about Holy Sword. With Holy Sword, the need for weapon enhancements is pretty moot. 1 round buffing to cast Holy Sword and the swift Earth Hammer would result in some pretty slick bonuses for the rest of the combat, plus a weapon that counts as adamantine and good aligned, which gets by all DR but the top tier demons and most vampires. You could also buy/craft pearls 3 and 4 to recover those spells after each encounter, allowing you to buff those at every encounter. Plus, even at lower levels, you can divine sacrifice on a decisive strike for a bit more damage. Paladin spells are actually pretty badass for their respective levels....
magebeast 08-15-07, 06:04 PM	He'll be getting paladin spells, and some are pretty decent. Earth Hammer, from RoS, would up your unarmed damage by one catagory (or your QS to a massive d8) and don't forget about Holy Sword. With Holy Sword, the need for weapon enhancements is pretty moot. 1 round buffing to cast Holy Sword and the swift Earth Hammer would result in some pretty slick bonuses for the rest of the combat, plus a weapon that counts as adamantine and good aligned, which gets by all DR but the top tier demons and most vampires. You could also buy/craft pearls 3 and 4 to recover those spells after each encounter, allowing you to buff those at every encounter. Plus, even at lower levels, you can divine sacrifice on a decisive strike for a bit more damage. Paladin spells are actually pretty badass for their respective levels.... Don't you have to be a Dwarf for all the DR bypassing goodness?