Post/Author/DateTime	Post
robotdog 05-04-07, 04:15 AM	So I am a new LG player... and had a question about the optimal gold/xp curve for a fighter... I have a vague sense that one of the ways to really optimize your character is to make good use of the limited gold resource... can anyone give me any hints on any rules of thumb I should keep in mind when trying to figure out how to spend my gold? I currently have a 4th level fighter with about 3k of gold... scott.
Lupo 05-04-07, 06:24 AM	So I am a new LG player... and had a question about the optimal gold/xp curve for a fighter... I have a vague sense that one of the ways to really optimize your character is to make good use of the limited gold resource... can anyone give me any hints on any rules of thumb I should keep in mind when trying to figure out how to spend my gold? I currently have a 4th level fighter with about 3k of gold... scott. to me the primary items for fighters are: weapons: you can get along with masterwork weapons of your choice quite long, buy a silver masterwork weapon ASAP (if you are concerned about the 1 hp less damge, buy a second weapon, you need backup weapons anyway), and keep some oils of bless, oils of magic weapon handy. try to have several backup weapons to overcome DR (bludgeoning, piercing, slashing, cold iron, silver) and a bow suitable for your strength - or at least some javelins or other throwing weapons. armor: don't invest to much gp into it untill you have access to the type and material you want. buy a nighty (chain shirt to sleep in), encounters in the middle of the night without any armor can be nasty. AMULET OF HEALTH: buy it, keep it, let it be upgraded :) cloak or vestment of resistance: buy it when you can spend the money, not as needed as some other items. buy a handful of CLW potions and scrolls, later maybe even a CMW potion and two CMW scrolls, for the low levels hand scrolls of enlarge person to the party's arcanist. some very usefull one-shot-items: potion of restoration (costly but worth it), potion of remove blindness (when you need it, you need it dearly) when you reach the point where you can afford it AND find access buy things like: pearls of power - your party casters will love you and be more willing to help you aout with a mage armor (nice against incorporeals), barkskin or similart spells), metamagic rods, wands of enlarge. save for boots of haste or winged boots according to personal taste and common party composition. hope this helps, and again, this is just my personal opinion, some others might have different approaches ;) ciao martin m.
UMiskatonic 05-04-07, 09:46 AM	Careful use of consumable items is important for a fighter. That oil of bless weapon, or that potion of see invisibility is going to save your life. Drinking a potion of blur before every fight, on the other hand, will ensure that you die a lot at 6th, 7th, and 8th level, because you'll be WAY behind the wealth curve. I've played two fighter-types through. It's normal to feel like you're flat broke until 7th level. You're probably at the point now where you are deciding between magic armor and a magic weapon. There's no right answer for this, what kind of fighter are you? As far as covering all the different bases, try to do more with less. A MW silver morningstar, is a silver weapon, a piercing weapon, and a bludgeoning weapon. With oil of bless weapon, it will be effective vs. werewolves, skeletons, vampires, and liches, and if you lose it inside a gelatinous cube, it's not a big deal to replace.
dkay807 05-04-07, 12:55 PM	I've retired two melee fighters, and have one who is currently 12th level (and a fourth who is a Spellsword that crafts, so that doesn't really help here since his GP curve is way out of whack). 1. In general, figure out exactly what armor (type, material) that you want and don't buy any other kind until you get it. This can be a pain if you want Mithral Fullplate, which most front-line fighters do. Depending on what your dexterity modifier is, it may be worthwhile to deal with a non-masterwork breastplate until you find what you need. If your dex mod is only +1, then you might as well buy non-masterwork fullplate and take the 750 GP hit when you sell it for half. It depends on whether or not you adventure with other tanks. If you're the only tank... you might need to take the hit. 2. You'll want your main weapon to Adamantine or Starmetal. If you have the luxury of getting access early, buy that first and make it +1. If you don't, you might not be able to hold out long enough. In such a case, a +1 Silvered weapon is a good idea, since that will always come in handy. 3. Go easy on the consumable. Oil of Bless weapon and that's it. Maybe a Potion of Fly at higher levels JUST IN CASE, but otherwise, don't go buying random consumables. 4. You don't need a magic ranged weapon unless you're an archer. Save the bucks. 5. The signature items to strive for are: Boots of Speed, +1 Animated Heavy Mithral Shield, Belt of Giant Strength +4, +1 <insert enhancement here> Adamantine/Starmetal weapon, +1 Mithral Fullplate/Breastplate/Chain shirt (depending on your dex modifier), +3 Vest/Cloak of Resistance (+2 if you're low on cash... depending on how good your saves are). You might need a Cloak of Charisma if you're a Paladin. You should have them all by level 11 or 12. Figure out what you're shtick is... are you the main tank? Do you need a high armor class? Or are you the main damage dealer? That should influence which of these you buy first. 6. People have differing opinions regarding an Amulet of Health. I say, you should have at least a 16 con by level 10. This means, if you have a 12 con, buy a +4 before you consider some of the staple items I mentioned. If you have a 14, an amulet +2 should be sufficient for the time-being. If you have a 16, you won't need one until later. After you get your staple items, you can begin upgrading everything further. 7. Remember this phrase: "Milk, Bread, Eggs." That's what you buy first at the supermarket. Don't go and buy the box of ding-dongs when you're out of bread, don't go and buy the gallon of ice cream if you don't have any milk. We have a member of our party that refuses to listen to our suggestions and buys random crap, and he is by far the least effective member of the party. Buy hey, he has a Rod of Splendor! 8. All suggestions are based on unlimited item availability - you might not have access to some of those items... and that might prevent you from buying some until later.
solbergb 05-04-07, 01:05 PM	potions of see invis don't exist. That is a personal spell. Potions of restoratino don't exist. That is a L4 spell. That said, potion of lesser restoration is useful. As is remove blindness, although very pricy Buy nonmasterwork heavy armor (or breastplate if you can't use heavy armor) if your goal is mithril fullplate. You don't want to wait until level 8 to get your fullplate or heavy plate. Most people can't benefit from the extra dex from mithril fullplate till the 11-15 game anyway. generally the heavy armor guys achieve it at about level 3, and sometimes they buy splintmail or halfplate as a stopgap.
dkay807 05-04-07, 01:07 PM	As far as covering all the different bases, try to do more with less. A MW silver morningstar, is a silver weapon, a piercing weapon, and a bludgeoning weapon. With oil of bless weapon, it will be effective vs. werewolves, skeletons, vampires, and liches, and if you lose it inside a gelatinous cube, it's not a big deal to replace. Not to be persnickety, Liches have DR bludgeoning AND magic. The morninstar would have to be magical.
solbergb 05-04-07, 01:08 PM	that's why he has a potion of bless weapon or magic weapon. TO fix up the "magic AND" requirement. Ditto with the really powerful silver/cold iron AND good type issues.
copper_wyrmling 05-04-07, 01:16 PM	Buy nonmasterwork heavy armor (or breastplate if you can't use heavy armor) if your goal is mithril fullplate. You don't want to wait until level 8 to get your fullplate or heavy plate. Most people can't benefit from the extra dex from mithril fullplate till the 11-15 game anyway. generally the heavy armor guys achieve it at about level 3, and sometimes they buy splintmail or halfplate as a stopgap. I'm perplexed that people are recommending nonmasterwork full plate - masterworking it is only another 150gp. It seems like a more reasonable position for weapons, where you may want four or five backups to cover all DR types (and one reach weapon, one decent ranged weapon, etc) and masterworking all of them gets expensive, but for armor? I'd just buy it masterwork, honestly. If you don't see mithral access for a while, making it +1 is about the cheapest AC upgrade you'll ever get. The -1 on armor check penalty isn't a bad thing either (sometimes, even tanks get asked to make balance / climb etc checks while in armor).
Mommy was an Orc 05-04-07, 02:10 PM	I'd just buy it masterwork, honestly. If you don't see mithral access for a while, making it +1 is about the cheapest AC upgrade you'll ever get. The -1 on armor check penalty isn't a bad thing either (sometimes, even tanks get asked to make balance / climb etc checks while in armor). It is cheap, but only a 50% refund once you do sell it. In a sense, you're spending 1150 to upgrade your armor to a +1, where it only costs 2K for a Ring you plan to permanently keep. And you probably can't afford both. One trick I like to do is make my 1st magical weapon my secondary melee weapon. Such as a Heavy Flail or a Reach Weapon. Then, once I have an adamantine weapon, I silver the 1st one. That way, I keep the golfbag expenses a bit more under control. Oh, and don't forget Oil of Shillelagh. Super cheap magic weapon that lets you either TWF or use a shield.
solbergb 05-04-07, 04:12 PM	I'm perplexed that people are recommending nonmasterwork full plate - I'm not really. I'm just trying to stop the insanity of playing from level 1-8 in a chain shirt because you're too cheap to buy heavy armor until you can afford the mithril variety.
Redfist 05-04-07, 04:40 PM	Especially since you can't count on ever finding it. My fighter went to 12th level before ever getting access to Mithral.
solbergb 05-04-07, 05:33 PM	Sometimes you get access early on the right character. Although with mine, it's a tradeoff between mithril and starmetal, and as the latter is a lot rarer, I'm likely to go with starmetal and use plain old steel for my armor. Aside from that, a 5k item is something I'll get to use a lot sooner than a 12kish item like mithril fullplate.
Lupo 05-04-07, 08:15 PM	<snip> 3. Go easy on the consumable. Oil of Bless weapon and that's it. Maybe a Potion of Fly at higher levels JUST IN CASE, but otherwise, don't go buying random consumables. <snip> as a player of lots of casters i am somehow concerned about non-casters that just assume "the caster will bring along - and therefore pay - the consumables" as there is no way of refunding the caster, be nice and at least drag along basic things like your own wand of CLW, wand (or at least some scrolls) of enlarge and wand (or scrolls) of magic weapon. ciao martin m.
Asaris 05-06-07, 02:37 PM	Good point on the consumables. My fighter even has a PoP 1 that casters at the table are usually pretty grateful for.
Reylance 05-07-07, 02:59 PM	I wouldn't worry too much about absolutely optimizing your gold expenditures. By retirement, the majority of your money will be sunk into the following, in likely order from most expensive to least: 1. Your main weapon (+1 holy bane?) 2. Your main armor (+1 mithral heavy fortification?) 3. Your belt of giant strength (+6) 4. Your amulet of health (+4 or +6) 5. Your vest of resistance (+4 or +5) 6. Boots of Speed 7. Your main shield (+1 animated?) 8. A backup magic weapon Compared to that, how often you sell an old suit of armor or old weapon is a trivial expense. Don't be afraid to wear +1 full plate when you're planning on eventually wearing +1 mithral or adamantine full plate. Each time your one higher AC translates into a miss, that's less danger to you and less chance another PC is going to have to change his action to help save you, instead of defeating the enemy. I like to carry utility and emergency consumables, including oils of magic weapon and bless weapon, potions of cure light wounds and protection from evil, and wands of cure light wounds and lesser vigor. Even after your main weapon is magic/good, keep one around, in case you run into an unusual combination like silver and magic or piercing and good. I should carry additional consumables, like potions of lesser restoration and fly, but I'm bad about doing that. Buy items to help defray the drain on others, such as buying your own healing and pearls of power. Buy any important item that isn't open access but should be, including scrolls of align weapon and restoration. There are a couple of low-level magic items that come up a lot, such as the belt of one mighty blow and the gloves of fortunate striking. You may eventually want another item in that slot, but don't be afraid to buy them; you'll get six to ten levels' worth out of them.
_metz_ 05-07-07, 09:44 PM	If you want to be enlarged, buy a wand of it. At higher APLs have potions to save actions, especially if that Cadaver Collector walks round the corner, being enlarged means: Cannot be spiked, Cannot be Trampled... If you want to be healed often, buy a wand of CLW. My cleric personally is sick of other characters turning to it when he runs out of spells and demanding to use his wands. BUY A PROTECTION FROM EVIL POTION. - if you don't have a couple of these, you deserve to be dominated. Once you are regularly playing APL 6s etc, have a scroll of remove blindness/deafness, (or potion), have a potion of fly, have a potion of water breathing. I would say once you get to high enough levels, assuming you get access (which is a big assumption, but I know they are out in some core games), Your primary Weapon should be Starmetal adds nothing to the cost of further upgrades, good against elementals, fiends, etc and counts as Adamantine. - Failing that Get an adamantine weapon if you have access to it and no other weapon by APL 8. Casters will love you if you can deal with Golems. Have some alchemist's fire for pesky swarms... Have a couple of Doses of Silversheen. Nothing more annoying than having a +1 Vorpal Starmetal Dwarven Waraxe (its possible, I have access) and coming up against a vampire at High APL. (Immune to critical hits and not an outsider) Ghostoil. Ghostoil, Ghostoil, Ghostoil.... HAVE SOME - the moment you get access, buy like ten if its not core/regional Ring of Freedom of Movement - Pricey, but if you can get it - AMAZING, I have seen access out there in a core mod, go forth and get it. Boots of Speed Backup Magic Weapon - This is your weapon till you get Starmetal/Adamantine access Coldiron Arrows and spare backup weapons (Slashing, Bludgeoning, Piercing) Should ALWAYS have a spare Reach Weapon. (Buy a Glaive) HAve some potions of healing on you at all times. ALWAYS. DOn't always assume the cleric is going to be up/able to come heal you.
paigeoliver 05-09-07, 04:09 AM	Ok, I am going to assume a traditional fighter here, with the normal 12 dex and who normally uses a 2 handed weapon. Most of this applies to sword and board fighters as well. Forget about silver weapons. Those are for characters who can't manage to do damage in the first place. Using a +1 magic weapon and power attacking for 1 point has the exact same hit chance and only does one less damage against DR 5/silver than the non-magic silver version of the weapon that cost you a bunch of gold. First off lets look at basic weapons. You will eventually want 2-3 magic weapons. These are my suggestions. #1. Your primary weapon. Greatsword, spiked chain, greataxe, whatever your preference. You want this to be adamantine or starmetal. Hold off until you get access. If you are going to be a fairly pure fighter than consider making the lance your primary weapon, as you will have the extra feats needed for spirited charge. #2. A +1 lance. This is your reach weapon. You have the added bonus of getting double damage on a lance charge at the onset of outdoor encounters. This is also your backup magic weapon if something happens to your primary one. #3. A +1 composite longbow with both normal, cold iron and silver arrows. Sometimes melee characters get stuck where they cannot close to fight, and they need a ranged weapon. This also gets you around sticky things like DR 10/ silver and magic. Armor. #4. Masterwork full plate, later upgrade to +1. #4a . Masterwork heavy shield, IF you are a shield character. Stat bump items. #5. Gloves of Str+2. You will sell these eventually and get a +4 belt. Taking this gold hit is worth it. #6. Con amulet. Eventually you will upgrade this. Other items. #7. A warhorse with chain shirt barding. Every fighter needs a horse. You can lance charge from it, you threaten more squares while riding, it can attack, you get a bonus to hit, unintelligent monsters might attack it instead of you, and it might keep you from losing a module because your party WALKED 200 miles and took too long to get to where they were going. #8. A net. It is an exotic weapon, but it is a touch attack thus a good fighter can hit using it without the proficiency. These can be good for certain tricky situations. Here is my suggested purchasing order for a theoretical fighter. The moment you get starmetal or adamantine access you are going to want to buy your primary weapon made from it, no matter what your were saving for at the moment. Don't hold out forever though, if you are 6th level and still haven't seen adamantine access than just go with a normal one, but don't upgrade it past +1. #1. Scale mail armor, masterwork lance, normal version of your primary weapon if it isn't lance, and a few javelins. If your primary weapon IS lance then buy a masterwork composite longbow instead. #2. Masterwork full plate. #3. Masterwork shield if you use one. #4. Warhorse. #5. Masterwork composite longbow if you don't have one yet. #6. Upgrade a weapon to +1. #7. +1 on full plate. #8. +1 on shield if you have one. #9. Barding for that horse. #10. Gloves of STR +2. #11. +1 vest of resistance. #12. +1 on second weapon. #13. +1 on 3rd weapon. #14. Amulet of Con +2 #15. Ring of Protection +1 #16. Upgrade primary weapon to +2 equivalent. #17. +2 on full plate #18. +2 on shield if you use one. #19. +2 on vest of resistance. #20. Upgrade primary weapon to +3 equivalent. #21. Belt of Giant STR +4. #22. Upgrade con amulet to +4. That is a basic buying plan. You obviously may want to pepper some other items in there depending on access, but that plan is solid, and will last you for many levels. 1 major suggested change is that shield characters (particularly tower shield characters) go with an amulet of natural armor instead of a con amulet. This builds on the character's already strong armor class and can make for the distinct possibility of primary attacks often missing the character.
solbergb 05-09-07, 11:53 AM	as a side note -silver and cold iron aren't so much for the DR/5 situations when talking about a 2h fighter with power attack. They are for the DR/10 situations. Primarily fey and lycanthropes, but full vampires are common enough that it's handy, and I ran into a mod recently with some random "non monster manual" undead with DR/10 at APL4. That said the math on DR/silver is wrong. Your silver weapon and cold iron weapon should also be masterwork, so your "magic primary weapon" does only 2 points more damage with no to-hit benefit. Silvering a "real" weapon will be good for a long, long time. If you are specialized in one type of weapon, it might even be the first weapon you enchant, so all your weapons of various material types do thes same damage (for easy math). I have a few comments on weapon choice that don't agree with the above in detail, although in principle, pretty close. I have a bias for less random damage, so I prefer 2d4 to 1d10 and 2d6 to 1d12. If you aren't going down some weapon spec path, consider the following. Reach weapon - Guisarme if you trip, ranseur (which can be set for double damage and works underwater and adds bonus to disarm, possible if you outreach the enemy) if you don't do tripping. Glaives are for people who prever 1d10 to 2d4 and don't care about special abilities on the weapon. Unless you are sword+board or mounted, your reach weapon is likely your primary weapon if you get used to using it. Adamantine/starmetal weapon. If possible make this a blunt weapon. Note that this conflicts with the idea of reach weapon being primary, and this weapon being your primary weapon. Silver weapon - best option is weapon capsule retainers - I usually stick quicksilver on my cold iron weapon, as the weapon is a specialized DR-defeater, but it's also good on your primary weapon. Failing that, or in situations like my druid, who will be in RHOD and may not get her regional access to quicksilver reliably, just silvering a greatsword works well enough. That weapon already does 2 points more damage than her primary 2d4 reach weapon, so the "hit" to damage is fairly meaningless. I've fooled around a bit with variants and I've been leaning toward a plain steel reach weapon, enchanted to +1 (thus doing same damage as silvered greatsword) with cold iron and silvered greatswords, and adamantine heavy flail when access arrives (using perhaps a cheap greatclub until you get access). If you can bring yourself to carry more than one reach weapon, cold iron might be on your backup reach weapon. (I can't visualize it - ONE reach weapon can be sheathed, kinda like those chinese warriors with flags on their backs in the movies. Two...I can't picture it unless it folds up like a spike chain does)
copper_wyrmling 05-09-07, 09:32 PM	And then of course you have specialist fighter-types whose purchase logic is rather different: all the weapons I buy for my dervish from now on are likely to be slashing (trying to decide atm whether to grab the adamantine greatsword I have adventure access to or burn a favor to get an adamantine falchion - he has weapon focus and will have imp crit in falchion), since using a bludgeoning weapon means he can't dervish dance, and that's a HUGE penalty (lose ability to move and full attack, lose Cleave feat, and take -3 to hit and damage, at the moment... it gets worse at higher levels). His priorities to this point (L10) have been getting his mithral breastplate, +4 strength belt and boots of speed: getting a decent weapon is next on the list (he's currently still using a plain +1 steel falchion... of course, this is the PC who made it to L10 in 23 ARs including a conversion AR, so it feels like he's picking up nice equipment at an amazing rate ;) )
Timlagor 05-14-07, 12:08 PM	I'd burn the favour without a moment's hesitation.. unless you have another favour that gives you Starmetal.