Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GreatSiron 05-23-07, 03:59 PM	I've read over a lot of thread that make gnomes look bad role-play wise and I'd like to make a gnome that breaks those misconceptions! However, I also want to be useful in combat, and with a STR penelty, that eliminates almost everything melee, and I already have enough casters: a wizard, a cleric, a druid, and a warmage (I never play with). So, any suggestions on a build or builds?
Mithreinmaethor 05-23-07, 04:20 PM	I personally want them to add Forest Gnomes to the playable races and then I want to do a Special Mission for accss to the Gnome Ranger racial substitution levels. Then segue into gnome giant killer or something.
LachlarlanIII 05-23-07, 04:39 PM	http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=805459 I happen to like that build. It's mine, but you can use it, in part or whole, if you want.
Jay_Ibero_911 05-23-07, 04:46 PM	Believe it or not, a Gnome Dragon Disciple can be pretty fearsome in combat. Druid is another class that a gnome's small size and strength penalty don't really matter for. I know both from experience.
kjenks 05-23-07, 06:28 PM	I'm five levels into an interesting gnome build: a summoner who will retrain into a mounted lancer druid/fighter. For the first five levels, he's a summoner, with Spell Focus: Conjuration and Augment Summoning. He rode a riding dog animal companion until level 4 where he started to ride his dire bat animal companion. The mount gives him mobility and some extra melee attack ability. (A LOT of melee attack ability at levels 1-4, where the animal companion is a better fighter than most of the fighters in the party.) The Share Spells ability works amazingly well with the 1 hour/level Beast Claws spell. This gives both the druid and the animal companion the option of attacking with two claws (1d4, 19-20/x2) or a single weapon (quarterstaff or longspear for the druid, bite for the dog or bat). The gnome druid's small size gives a +1 to attack rolls. Str 13 gives another +1. Sharing a Magic Fang with the animal companion gives another +1. Casting Nature's Favor (a swift action) gives the animal even more bonuses. At higher levels, my gnome will retrain out from the Augment Summoning and Spell Focus feats, take some Hospitalier levels and go on to mounted lancer. I'm lucky enough to have found Riding Boots (DMG2, 12,000 gp) that provide a free Ride-by Attack feat; these figure prominently into the build. 1 Druid 1 Spell Focus (Conjuration) 2 Druid 2 3 Druid 3 Augment Summoning 4 Druid 4 5 Druid 5 (And here's where it gets tricky...) 6 Hospitalier 1 Retrain Augment Summoning to Mounted Combat; buy Riding Boots for free Ride-by Attack feat; select Spirited Charge and select Power Attack as Hospitalier bonus feat 7 Fighter 1 Retrain Spell Focus to Improved Bull Rush; select Shock Trooper as fighter bonus feat 8 Fighter 2 Retrain Spirited Charge to Lion's Pounce; select Spirited Charge 9 Druid 6 Extra Wildshape 10 Druid 7 11 Druid 8 12 Druid 9 Extra Wildshape 13 Druid 10 14 Druid 11 15 Druid 12 Quicken Spell Stats: Str 15 -2 from gnome = 13, bump to 14 at level 4 Con 14 +2 from gnome The rest don't matter much. Skills: Ride, Handle Animal, Concentration, Spot. At level 5, with Str 14 and the shared Beast Claws, the druid and his bat can inflict a whole lot of melee damage in little bits with four attacks per round. Sharing Bull's Strength helps. A summoned Dire Hawk helps out a lot, too. (That's a great spell!) At level 6 and up, mounted lance charges with Ride-by Attack will do a good amount of damage and we'll end up most rounds outside of melee range. At level 7 and up, he'll have a 20% penalty on XP and gold, but this ain't all bad. He'll get more access per level than most other LG characters. Shock Trooper/Heedless Charge allows full two-handed Power Attack with no penalty on the attack roll. (The PA penalty comes from AC instead, which doesn't matter much after a Ride-by Attack takes you far from the battle.) Lion's Pounce allows multiple lance attacks per charge/Ride-by Attack, dramatically increasing damage. This will work especially well since the character already has Any access to a Speed weapon upgrade.
bitznarf 05-23-07, 06:34 PM	1 Druid 1 Spell Focus (Conjuration) 2 Druid 2 3 Druid 3 Augment Summoning 4 Druid 4 5 Druid 5 (And here's where it gets tricky...) 6 Hospitalier 1 Retrain Augment Summoning to Mounted Combat; buy Riding Boots for free Ride-by Attack feat; select Lion's Pounce and select Power Attack as Hospitalier bonus feat 7 Fighter 1 Retrain Spell Focus to Improved Bull Rush; select Shock Trooper as fighter bonus feat You can't do this: you would not have qualified for Improved Bull Rush at level 1, making it an invalid retraining choice.
kjenks 05-23-07, 07:02 PM	You can't do this: you would not have qualified for Improved Bull Rush at level 1, making it an invalid retraining choice. Oops. I messed around with my text document and got them a little out of order. You get the idea, though.
GreatSiron 05-23-07, 07:41 PM	Actually, I already have a Druid, but it looks like all gnomes are good for is casting, because of the STR penalty, thought these ideas are pretty good. I guess I raise this question then: in melee, are gnomes good for anything other than corking? (As I already have TWO of those, my rogue and my fighter)
clannagh 05-23-07, 07:59 PM	Actually, I already have a Druid, but it looks like all gnomes are good for is casting, because of the STR penalty, thought these ideas are pretty good. I guess I raise this question then: in melee, are gnomes good for anything other than corking? (As I already have TWO of those, my rogue and my fighter) I play a gnome paladin who will eventually will be taking levels in cavallier and hospitaler. She already has access to riding boots. When you can charge around a restaurant or bar on a medium mount double handed power attacking with a lance doing ride-by-attacks that crit for 7x damage the fact that you are only STR 14 or so doesnt really make that much difference.
Timlagor 05-23-07, 08:32 PM	Gnomes make great chargers (though Halflings have their own PrC for it). A Gnome can just be a tank -2Str isn't that major a handicap (you do get the attack bonus back for being small).
Mommy was an Orc 05-23-07, 09:43 PM	Actually, I already have a Druid, but it looks like all gnomes are good for is casting, because of the STR penalty, thought these ideas are pretty good. I guess I raise this question then: in melee, are gnomes good for anything other than corking? (As I already have TWO of those, my rogue and my fighter) Sure. Gnome Str 14, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 9 1: Barbarian 1: Extra Rage 2: Fighter 1: Power Attack 3: Fighter 2: Dodge, WF: Greatsword 4: Bard 1: Str 15 5: Bard 2 6: Dragon Disciple 1: Combat Expertise 7: Dragon Disciple 2: Str 17 8: Dragon Disciple 3: Str 18 9: Dragon Disciple 4: Str 20: Mobility 10: Warchanter 1 11: Warchanter 2 12: Warchanter 3: Cha 10: Elusive Target 13: Warchanter 4 14: Warchanter 5 15: Warchanter 6: ? The Dodge feats don't actually have to be that until 12th. Use Retraining. With Rage and +6 Str Item, the character ultimately has a 30 Strength and a +13 BAB. Once he hits 12th level, he's doing 1d10+35 with a non-magical greatsword at FullBAB...just make sure to have a Cloak of Charisma +2 by 5th/6th so as to get bonus 1st level Bard spells per day from Dragon Disciple...
GreatSiron 05-23-07, 10:21 PM	I always wanted a dragon disciple, and that looks like a really good, if mutted, build. Thanks. But what do I put in the Dodge feat's slots until I hit 12th?
kjenks 05-23-07, 10:40 PM	Actually, I already have a Druid, but it looks like all gnomes are good for is casting, because of the STR penalty, thought these ideas are pretty good. I guess I raise this question then: in melee, are gnomes good for anything other than corking? (As I already have TWO of those, my rogue and my fighter) My gnome build ain't no spellcasting build. It has mounted lance charges like this: 6th: +9 attack, 3d6+9 damage (masterwork lance) 7th: +10 attack, 3d6+12 or Power Attacking 5: +5 attack, 3d6+42 (+1 lance) 8th: +11 attack, 3d6+48, 1/day pounce: +6 attack, 3d6+48 9th: +15 attack, 3d6+63, 4/day pounce: +10 attack, 3d6+63 (+2 lance, Belt of Giant Str +4) After that, lance damage goes up by 6 for every BAB due to two-handed Power Attack and triple damage from Spirited Charge. Here's the corrected progression: 1 Druid 1 Spell Focus (Conjuration) 2 Druid 2 3 Druid 3 Augment Summoning 4 Druid 4 5 Druid 5 (And here's where it gets tricky...) 6 Fighter 1 Retrain Augment Summoning to Mounted Combat; buy Riding Boots for free Ride-by Attack feat; select Lion's Pounce and select Spirited Charge as Fighter bonus feat 7 Fighter 2 Retrain Spell Focus to Power Attack; select Improved Bull Rush as Fighter bonus feat 8 Hospitalier 1 Select Shock Trooper as the Hospitalier bonus feat 9 Druid 6 Extra Wildshape 10 Druid 7 11 Druid 8 12 Druid 9 Extra Wildshape 13 Druid 10 14 Druid 11 15 Druid 12 Quicken Spell At level 15, a mounted lance charge/pounce looks like +23/+18/+13 attack, 3d6+105 damage with a +4 lance. Maybe another attack in there if you find access to a Speed upgrade. Nobody will call you a cork. As Timlagor says, "Gnomes make great chargers."
_metz_ 05-23-07, 11:51 PM	I play a gnome paladin who will eventually will be taking levels in cavallier and hospitaler. She already has access to riding boots. When you can charge around a restaurant or bar on a medium mount double handed power attacking with a lance doing ride-by-attacks that crit for 7x damage the fact that you are only STR 14 or so doesnt really make that much difference. Just because you have a small mount doesn't mean all DMs will let you bring said mount into the bar or restaurant. (Though being a Paladin and snapping your fingers helps) On a side note, I have seen too many Adventures where people have had their Rhino's etc wandering around greyhawk etc, when its actually not allowed. I am glad to see this is being enforced more in recent modules. :) I feel that mounted combat isn't that overpowered because you shouldn't be able to bring your mount everywhere. Many DMs fail to take this into account imo Tho being small and a Paladin is a Great way of addressing that issue. So Damage producing is a lot easier.
King Kashue 05-23-07, 11:56 PM	Ugh, the two handed lance wielders... As unrealistic as the spiked chain and just as good melted over tortilla chips...
bitznarf 05-24-07, 12:02 AM	There are more restrictions on mounted chargers than there are on spiked chain weilders though.
King Kashue 05-24-07, 12:13 AM	There are more restrictions on mounted chargers than there are on spiked chain weilders though. True. It's still "rules reality" though. And while we're obviously going to get a lot of that (magic for instance has no physical reality to model) allowing something that is demonstrably nonsense is always annoying to me...
GreatSiron 05-24-07, 12:18 AM	So should I make a charger, or a dragon disciple? Both of them deal massive damage. (Something all of my current characters lack, save the fighter, which can throw away the tower shield and weild his axe two-handed, which he loaths to do). On one hand, I would love to play a paladin (I would be firing off Detect Evil at the start of the encounter, EVERY encounter.) On the other hand, Dragons are always cool (unless you are facing them, then they suck.)
Mommy was an Orc 05-24-07, 12:33 AM	I always wanted a dragon disciple, and that looks like a really good, if mutted, build. Thanks. But what do I put in the Dodge feat's slots until I hit 12th? Whatever you like - Reckless Rage would be a good one for the 3rd level feat. You could retrain right before 9th to make it Dodge and then pick up Titan Fighting from levels 9-11.
Jay_Ibero_911 05-24-07, 12:51 AM	Ugh, the two handed lance wielders... As unrealistic as the spiked chain and just as good melted over tortilla chips... See, I've never had any trouble seeing a lance wielded 2 handed...I don't think I could explain it...but you'd do it the same way you wield a forward pointing spear 2 handed, basically the way you normally wield a lance, but with your other hand gripping the shaft underhanded and in front of your lance-side hand, and used with a forward thrusting motion. I hope that gives you a good image of the way I see it...
kjenks 05-24-07, 12:59 AM	I feel that mounted combat isn't that overpowered because you shouldn't be able to bring your mount everywhere. That brings to mind another advantage of a mounted druid build: Reduce Animal is a really nice spell. It can turn your dire bat into a medium creature for 1 hour/level and it's dismissible as a standard action.
King Kashue 05-24-07, 02:36 AM	See, I've never had any trouble seeing a lance wielded 2 handed...I don't think I could explain it...but you'd do it the same way you wield a forward pointing spear 2 handed, basically the way you normally wield a lance, but with your other hand gripping the shaft underhanded and in front of your lance-side hand, and used with a forward thrusting motion. I hope that gives you a good image of the way I see it... Oh, I can see how one could grip the lance that way, and there's no question the rules allow it. The only thing I have issues with are the real world physics and the ahistorical nature of it.
boolean 05-24-07, 02:44 AM	That brings to mind another advantage of a mounted druid build: Reduce Animal is a really nice spell. It can turn your dire bat into a medium creature for 1 hour/level and it's dismissible as a standard action. The other advantage to a druid is that you can summon something to ride if you companion isn't available (elsewhere, dead, etc.). There are a few problems with this. The summon usually isn't as tough as your companion, it doesn't come with any gear (so you take the penalty for riding bareback), and your DM may rule that it doesn't count as a suitable mount (giving a further penalty) and isn't trained as a mount (requiring extra handle animal and ride checks each round). It's far from ideal, but it might be handy in an emergency.
clannagh 05-24-07, 03:23 AM	Just because you have a small mount doesn't mean all DMs will let you bring said mount into the bar or restaurant. (Though being a Paladin and snapping your fingers helps) On a side note, I have seen too many Adventures where people have had their Rhino's etc wandering around greyhawk etc, when its actually not allowed. I am glad to see this is being enforced more in recent modules. :) I feel that mounted combat isn't that overpowered because you shouldn't be able to bring your mount everywhere. Many DMs fail to take this into account imo Tho being small and a Paladin is a Great way of addressing that issue. So Damage producing is a lot easier. Ugh, the two handed lance wielders... As unrealistic as the spiked chain and just as good melted over tortilla chips... Yes yes ETV .. of course. Its quite simple. I do not see D&D as a sort of mildly modified historical medieval role play with some Lord of the Ring elements. I see it as a fantasy game we do to have fun and its MEANT to be outragous at times. If people want to create a pseudo historical medieval world with sword and board fighters and "real world" rules that is there choice but I choose not to play with them. And I believe a medium mount with the appropriate feats to make turns while charging so they can get around in cramped spaces and ride-by may not be historical but I find it amusing and fun. If a controlling DM tries to restrict that fun by getting power hungry and enforcing his idea of what is "proper" behaviour - over and beyond the rules - I simply will not play with that DM again .. ever. If I ever annoy other uptight players that dislike my characers I do not force myself on them I choose not to play with them again as well :) Yes that restricts my game availability but I play for fun and if its not fun then I may just as well not play and go do do something else that actually is fun.
_metz_ 05-24-07, 03:42 AM	BY that arguement if its fun then do it regardless of if its in character for the region, town, NPCs or campaign? By all means build a small charging character who can nip around restaurants, all I am saying is don't expect that all restaurants will let you bring your Saddled Mount and Lance in and let you ride it around. Claiming that a DM is power hungry cos they feel that way is being a bit immature, as is calling other players who choose to roleplay a more serious character as being uptight is equally selfish. You are essentially criticizing their choice of character by doing that, imposing your style of play on others, and arguing that the context of campaign and module are unimportant as long as you can do what you want. IN Ratik you can't career around the Ball on your riding dog with a lance, and if the DM tells you this, are you going to throw a hissy fit and never play with them again? cos thats the impression I am getting? If another Player at the table playing a bard says to your PC in character that they should act appropriately for the event being uptight? They are not criticizing your build, your choices, they are roleplaying and presenting as believable (for their characters) and (as much as is possible) consistent world to adventure in. Thats just my opinion on the matter, I wasn't saying that there was any issue with a small paladin on a riding dog, I just said expect table variation. I aint singling anyone out here, these are general thoughts of mine on the greater issues being brought up.
King Kashue 05-24-07, 04:49 AM	If a controlling DM tries to restrict that fun by getting power hungry and enforcing his idea of what is "proper" behaviour - over and beyond the rules - I simply will not play with that DM again .. ever. If I ever annoy other uptight players that dislike my characers I do not force myself on them I choose not to play with them again as well :) Yes that restricts my game availability but I play for fun and if its not fun then I may just as well not play and go do do something else that actually is fun. What I'm wondering is who actually suggested anything even resembling what you're describing? Who suggested that as a DM they would intentionally go beyond the scope of the rules to arbitrarily assert their power in order to achieve their own personal ends, regardless of how it affected the playing experience of the players or the atmosphere of the game? Now, if someone suggested that, I must have missed it...but if no one actually suggested that, it can't help but seem that you're merely taking a rather limited comment, and then misconstruing and exaggerating what was actually said to give yourself an opportunity to make a dramatic, but ultimately empty and irrelevant, statement about some hypothetical abuser of DM power and authority who does not exist, at least in this thread (and perhaps exists no where at all)... But as I said, I might just have missed where someone suggested that...
Mithreinmaethor 05-24-07, 05:10 AM	No no we want Forest gnomes :) Gnomes need more love man. Maybe we will get deep gnomes in Greyhawk ruins ?
King Kashue 05-24-07, 05:27 AM	Gnomes need more love man. Commit a crime. Go to prison. From what I hear, there's plenty of man love in prison...
Mithreinmaethor 05-24-07, 06:26 AM	I worked in one for 7 years.
_metz_ 05-24-07, 09:33 AM	No no we want Forest gnomes :) Gnomes need more love man. Maybe we will get deep gnomes in Greyhawk ruins ? Maybe if they stop being evil in every mod... Hehehe (It doesn't help that I have adventured with Alvin, if you ever have you are positive that there is something inherently wrong with gnomes)
KShaver 05-24-07, 10:07 AM	My gnome 'raised by wolves' looks something like this: Str 14, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 10 1. Barbarian - Dodge 2. Ranger - Track 3. Fighter - Skill Focus:Handle Animal, Titan Fighting 4. Barbarian 5. Fighter - Mobility 6. Beastmaster - Elusive Target 7+ Animal Lord: Wolf Lord Everything is falling together perfectly so far. Up to 5th, and RHoD is going to change that next month. AC and hit points are crazy good, damage is just a little low, but she can always drop her shield and two hand the battleaxe while raging to put out some decent damage. The only real problem I've got with the build is its will save, its -1 at 1st and will still be -1 at 8th, barring the aquisition of a cloak or vest of resistance. :( On the other hand fort is a silly +18 or +19 at 8th and reflex is at a solid +9 or +10 at that point.
delewobmesid 05-24-07, 10:43 AM	6: Dragon Disciple 1: Combat Expertise 7: Dragon Disciple 2: Str 17 8: Dragon Disciple 3: Str 18 9: Dragon Disciple 4: Str 20: Mobility how do you suggest getting access to the dragon disciple prestidge class? do you have regional access through a meta org or just a standing special mission with your triad?
LachlarlanIII 05-24-07, 10:51 AM	how do you suggest getting access to the dragon disciple prestidge class? do you have regional access through a meta org or just a standing special mission with your triad? It's only NONC for chromatic (evil) dragon types. Paraphrasing, Dragon Disciple falls under the "If it's in one of the three core books and not listed, it's considered open" rule.
King Kashue 05-24-07, 01:10 PM	I worked in one for 7 years. You worked in a prison... Or you "worked" in a prison?
GreatSiron 05-24-07, 01:10 PM	Ok, first off, what feat allows me to turn while charging (I got more than one character that would be interested in that.) And second, about Alvin, thats the kind of stereotype I'm trying to defeat! That gnomes are insane or evil.
King Kashue 05-24-07, 01:13 PM	It's only NONC for chromatic (evil) dragon types. Paraphrasing, Dragon Disciple falls under the "If it's in one of the three core books and not listed, it's considered open" rule. Also if you're True Neutral or Chaotic Neutral, you need campaign documentation.
KShaver 05-24-07, 02:53 PM	Ok, first off, what feat allows me to turn while charging (I got more than one character that would be interested in that.) Run->Fleet of Foot (CW)
Mommy was an Orc 05-24-07, 02:53 PM	And second, about Alvin, thats the kind of stereotype I'm trying to defeat! That gnomes are insane or evil. But if all gnomes are insane or evil, isn't that an insane or evil act?
GreatSiron 05-24-07, 03:05 PM	Wait, does my mount need fleet of foot, since it is charging, or do I? (If I do that will really screw up my build, since I was orignally going for a Dex of 10).
kjenks 05-24-07, 03:50 PM	Your mount needs Fleet of Foot. Several good mounts already have the Run feat, so you just need to advance it a little.
TWG_Prometheus 05-24-07, 04:00 PM	I'm not sold on the idea that a Strength penalty or even a low strength (though certainly not a negative strength mod) prohibits successful combat. While Strength is the easiest way to get a damage blender build going, it's not the only way, and the +1 to hit and +1 to armor class from being small are significant bonuses. The critical part of making a successful lower Strength combatant is always figuring out where you're going to get your damage from. Sneak attack and other precision type damage sources work, but they fall flat on their face regularly. A Swift Hunter Ranger/Scout build might be something to consider. While not efficient, a high-Dex (probably Halfling due to this) Weapon Finesse/Power Attack build is also workable. If you can get your damage method rolling without blowing more than probably two feats on it and without reducing your attack rolls significantly, there isn't really a major problem with a low strength.
kjenks 05-24-07, 04:01 PM	I knew I had it somewhere: Here's the list of MM critters with the Run feat. Some of them are mounts that you can obtain easily, others you have to work at a bit. Some don't make good mounts at all. Blink dogs, for example, are likely to disappear out from under you at any moment. Blink dog, deinonychus, megaraptor, tyrannosaurus, dire bear, dire lion, dire tiger, dire wolf, hell hound, werebear, werewolf, nightmare, unicorn celestial charger, black bear, brown bear, polar bear, all horses, lion, huge viper, orca. My favorite: Charm Animal + tyrannosaurus = a really fun mount for your fighter buddy (This happened in an Iuz Metaregional; lots of fun had by all. The DM really seemed to enjoy killing the darned thing, with the monsters in the next encounter all targeting poor Rex.)
GreatSiron 05-24-07, 04:17 PM	So what kind of mount would be good for a small character?
Mithreinmaethor 05-24-07, 04:19 PM	Anyone know why Dire Wolverine doesnt have a burrow speed ? Because a Gnome Ranger (racial substitution levels) and a level of beast master would do great with one. But it only works with creatures with a burrow speed.
King Kashue 05-24-07, 04:34 PM	Anyone know why Dire Wolverine doesnt have a burrow speed ? Perhaps the in-game idea is that they're too big to burrow. However, the better question is why normal wolverines have a burrow speed. They're not burrowing animals. They occasionally make a habitat in burrows, but they're taken from other animals (they sometimes get into burrows and eat the currently hibernating inhabitants :D). Wolverines don't themselves burrow.
kjenks 05-24-07, 04:56 PM	So what kind of mount would be good for a small character? Dire bat rocks. It can hover above the battlefield, keeping you out of trouble, but it has enough movement to get you where you need to be. At low levels, or if you're a paladin, riding dogs are great. They have good AC, decent damage, that nifty trip attack, and as they advance, you can give them feats like Run and Fleet of Foot.
clannagh 05-25-07, 12:52 AM	Dire bat rocks. It can hover above the battlefield, keeping you out of trouble, but it has enough movement to get you where you need to be. At low levels, or if you're a paladin, riding dogs are great. They have good AC, decent damage, that nifty trip attack, and as they advance, you can give them feats like Run and Fleet of Foot. If you are a paladin .. the best flying mount probably results from advancing a dire hawk (RoW) to the max hit dice it will take before it gets large then adding a celestial template. You end up with a mount that needs 8 levels of paladin to qualify but you also get something that is roughly equivalent to the Griffon's, Celestial Dire Wolves, Unicorns etc that medium sized Paladins regularly get. You will of course need triad approval and a special mission. If you are nervous about flying an advanced celestial Elven Hound (taking run and fleet of foot) is probably the pick of the medium mount builds (though advanced celestial leopard can be nice) and should be available at level 6 paladin .. again triad permission and special mission essential. In both cases you end up with a mount roughly equivalent to those available to a medium paladin so its not exactly overpowered.
kjenks 05-25-07, 01:55 AM	If you can advance a Dire Hawk enough to give it a feat, this might work. Without the extra feat, its maneuverability is too low for most mounted combat applications. It needs Hover or at least Wingover. Or maybe just Improved Flight.
clannagh 05-25-07, 02:19 AM	If you can advance a Dire Hawk enough to give it a feat, this might work. Without the extra feat, its maneuverability is too low for most mounted combat applications. It needs Hover or at least Wingover. Or maybe just Improved Flight. According to MMII you can advance a Dire Hawk from its existing 5HD to 8HD and stay medium. After that it becomes large (and if you want a large flying mount the Dire Eagle is better). You gain one feat at 6HD which should probably be improved fly. You actually can get an 8HD advanced Dire hawk as a level 7 special mount as you get a normal Paladin mount at level 5, Making that a flying mount adds +1 and adding 3 hit dice adds another +1. I was just suggesting celestial ( for another +1 meaning minimum of level 8 paladin) as it rounds off the build nicely and fits the whole paladin theme. Needless to say advancing a mount and adding a template will need triad approval (for regional fluff as well as game balance considerations) and probably a special mission. One thing to rememebr is if you do not qualify for a special mount until level 8 that mount only gets level 5 paladin bonuses to natural armor etc and will always be effectively 3 below Paladins level for those bonuses.
bitznarf 05-25-07, 11:03 AM	Are we talking about advancing the dire hawk before it becomes a paladin mount, or are we talking using the bonus HD from Paladin to improve the mount? As far as I am aware the bonus HD from Paladin levels don't 'advance' the mount, they just add on in some ways.
Argonious_Woolbrow 06-03-07, 05:59 PM	I've read over a lot of thread that make gnomes look bad role-play wise and I'd like to make a gnome that breaks those misconceptions! However, I also want to be useful in combat, and with a STR penelty, that eliminates almost everything melee, and I already have enough casters: a wizard, a cleric, a druid, and a warmage (I never play with). So, any suggestions on a build or builds? Combat is not always about STR. A gnome rang./druid combo on a riding dog with Combat Style: archery makes for a though opponent for anyone. Staying mounted keeps you at a distance for some long term harassing and providing needed party support. Outside of combat, you have the ultimate scout/ wayfinder... which is crucial and much appreciated in all good campaigns.
Argonious_Woolbrow 06-03-07, 06:09 PM	...and besides you can't beat this combo for a more self sustainable character, i.e. great solo character.
King Kashue 06-03-07, 10:51 PM	...and besides you can't beat this combo for a more self sustainable character, i.e. great solo character. Because solo characters play such a big part in LG? :D
dkay807 06-03-07, 11:08 PM	As long as you're a strong player, you can go far with a build that isn't the most optimal build but really does quite well regardless. My buddy is currently playing the following build, and he kicks some serious ass. Gnome Barbarian 11/Dread Commando 1 (This includes adjustments for Greater Rage) Str 26 (14 + 2 bumps + 4 belt + 6 greater rage) Dex 16 (14 + 2 gloves) Con 26 (18 +2 amulet + 6 greater rage) Int 8 Wis 10 Cha 8 Feats: Power Attack, Dodge, Titan Fighting, Mobility, Elusive Target AC: 27 (while raging unbuffed not including Titan Fighting) Atk: +25/+25/+20/+15 for 1d8+15+2d6 vicious (with a +3 Vicious Starmetal Heavy Flail (GMW +3) and Boots of Speed) Saves: Fort +18, Reflex +11, Will +8 (with a Cloak of Resistance +3) Definitely not optimized, but he has a real blast playing it, it's got some serious style, and he definitely gets the job done.