Good Karmic Strike builds? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Good Karmic Strike builds? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jay_Ibero_911
05-23-07, 12:01 AM Karmic Strike is a very cool feat, but also very hard to build around. It seems the only times it is beneficial are when the -4 to AC doesn't really affect your chances of being hit, either because your AC is so low that they always hit, or your AC is so high that they only hit on very high rolls. And generally it's a good idea for your damage output to be equivalent to the enemy's. So far, this is the only build I've been able to put together that I liked:

Race:Human
Alignment:

STR-15 (8)
DEX-14 (6)
CON-14 (6)
INT-14 (6)
WIS-8 (0)
CHA-10 (2)

Lv1(Monk)Dodge, Combat Expertise
Lv2(Monk)Combat Reflexes
Lv3(Fighter)Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Focus(Great Scimitar)
Lv4(Fighter)Power Attack, +1 STR
Lv5(Barbarian)
Lv6(Fighter)Extra Rage
Lv7(Fighter)Weapon Specialization
Lv8(Exotic Weapon Master)+1 STR
Lv9(Bard)Karmic Strike
Lv10(Warchanter)
Lv11(Warchanter)
Lv12(Warchanter)Melee Weapon Mastery, +1 STR
Lv13(Dragon Disciple)
Lv14(Dragon Disciple)
Lv15(Dragon Disciple)Reckless Rage

Attack at 15th, with reckless rage, +1 weapon, +6 belt, Haste, Inspire Recklessness
BAB+12, +12 recklessness, +11 Str, +1 weapon, +1 focus, +2 MWM, , +1 Haste, -12 power attack=+28/+28/+23/+18
1d8 +24 PA +22 STR +4 feats +1 weapon=1d8+51
Bite=+21, 1d6+19

AC-12 recklessness-4 karmic strike-4reckless rage= -20

It's actaually possible to up the damage output by 2 by replacing the 2 monk levels with 2 more fighter levels taking combat expertise as the bonus feat, but the monk levels have too many other useful goodies. This one can be pretty equipment dependant though...ideally wanting +6 strength, dex, and con items for damage, AOO's, and HP. I'd like to see other people's ideas for Karmic Strike builds though...
bitznarf
05-23-07, 12:11 AM IMO you need something Elusive Target to negate some of the damage comming back at you. Take a look at one of MwaO's Fighter14/Barb1 builds. I think he has them in the 597 Compendium.
clannagh
05-23-07, 12:27 AM IMO you need something Elusive Target to negate some of the damage comming back at you. Take a look at one of MwaO's Fighter14/Barb1 builds. I think he has them in the 597 Compendium.

indeed ..

You would be especially vulnerable to groups of large hasted double toss master throwers full power attacking with brutal thrown large javelins .. even without a crit they are going to be whacking out up to 100 hp damage each a round and will be out of threat range of your karmic strike.
Jay_Ibero_911
05-23-07, 12:52 AM indeed ..

You would be especially vulnerable to groups of large hasted double toss master throwers full power attacking with brutal thrown large javelins .. even without a crit they are going to be whacking out up to 100 hp damage each a round and will be out of threat range of your karmic strike.

Ranged attackers are the biggest vulnerability of any karmic strike build, just goes with the territory. And Elusive Target wouldn't help in that scenario anyway. Power Throw is not Power Attack, and therefore cannot be negated by Elusive Target...
boolean
05-23-07, 08:54 AM I'd consider using dwarf instead of human. You lose the bonus feat, but you gain it back because you don't need EWP. (You use the proficiency with Dwarven Waraxe to enter Exotic WM.)

The benefit of the higher con is obvious: The build plans on getting hit pretty often, so you want as many HP as you can get. The charisma penalty is a problem though. I'm not sure 8 cha + a cloak of charisma would allow you to qualify for DD.
Timlagor
05-23-07, 09:08 AM I'd probbaly toss out the Weapon Spec stuff. It's great for TWF but makes less difference to the big 2-hander guys and you need the Elusive Target.
LachlarlanIII
05-23-07, 12:27 PM Combat Brute (or was it the other one?) lets you trade BAB for more damage as well.

One of the fellows in my area is playing an elf Barbarian/Fighter/Swashbuckler/Wildrunner.

He's going to have around a +10 Dex bonus, and a -20 AC from Karmic Strike and Combat Brute.

He charges, gets a full attack. Next round, he charges something else and gets a full attack.

Whenever something attacks him for charging away, he gets an AoO. Whenever something takes a full attack against him, he gets an AoO for every hit. It's really nasty.

It's also extremely fragile.
jstorrie
05-23-07, 10:28 PM That's Shock Trooper, not Elusive Target. It definitely works well with Karmic Strike, for sure. It's tough to get Shock Trooper, Reckless Rage, Elusive Strike and Karmic Strike all in one package, though. For example:

Human
1 Barbarian: Power Attack, Extra Rage
2 Barbarian:
3 Fighter: Dodge, Mobility
4 Fighter: Combat Expertise
5 Fighter:
6 Fighter: Elusive Target, Karmic Strike
7 Fighter
8 Fighter: Weapon Focus
9 Fighter: Weapon Specialization
10 Fighter: Melee Weapon Mastery
11 Fighter
12 Fighter: Reckless Rage, Improved Bull Rush
13 Fighter
14 Barbarian
15 Barbarian: Shock Trooper

See MWaO's build in the compilation for more reference. The feats are just difficult to all manage in one 15-level build, but KS/ET is a pretty solid setup for a mostly-fighter or pure fighter. Reck Rage is probably the better choice over Shock Trooper, though; charge lanes get blocked, but Reck Rage can be 'always on.'
Maesto
05-24-07, 08:46 AM The build I saw that used karmic strike came into it's prime about 6th level, and focussed on provoking attacks of opportunity. I think it went something like:

Human
1. Fighter, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility
2. Fighter, Combat Reflexes
3. Fighter, Elusive Target
4. Fighter, Improved Trip
5. Fighter,
6. Fighter, Karmic Strike
7. Fighter,
8. Fighter, Power Attack
9. Barbarian, Weapon Focus (some weapon)
10-15. Dervish

Instead of tumbling using dervish, actually provoke the attacks of opportunity through movement. Variations include inserting a swashbuckler level for weapon finesse, and using an elven courtblade with finesse, taking off some of the multiple attribute dependency because of the need for high dex for multiple AoOs.
Timlagor
05-24-07, 10:24 AM js: Shock Trooper should come at 9th in that build with all the Weapon Feats afterwards.
copper_wyrmling
05-24-07, 03:05 PM The build I saw that used karmic strike came into it's prime about 6th level, and focussed on provoking attacks of opportunity. I think it went something like:

Human
1. Fighter, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility
2. Fighter, Combat Reflexes
3. Fighter, Elusive Target
4. Fighter, Improved Trip
5. Fighter,
6. Fighter, Karmic Strike
7. Fighter,
8. Fighter, Power Attack
9. Barbarian, Weapon Focus (some weapon)
10-15. Dervish

Instead of tumbling using dervish, actually provoke the attacks of opportunity through movement. Variations include inserting a swashbuckler level for weapon finesse, and using an elven courtblade with finesse, taking off some of the multiple attribute dependency because of the need for high dex for multiple AoOs.

This doesn't work, since Elusive Target requires BAB 6 - but you're missing a feat at 6, so just slot it in there. Dervish dance won't be usable in every fight until L15 (the point at which you have three dances / day).

I'd like to see a karmic striker build that used the combat focus feats for fast healing (and thus didn't require so much healing investment to keep the PC alive), but I think the feat investment is too high.

My minor variation on a karmic striker worked in Deft Opportunist: +4 to hit on AoOs seems really nice. I think Extra Rage (for +4 Con and +4 Str) is also pretty important.

L1: Barbarian - Extra Rage, Combat Reflexes (use a glaive and armor spikes)
L2: Fighter - Power Attack
L3: Fighter - Deft Opportunist, Dodge
L4: Fighter
L5: Fighter - Combat Expertise
L6: Fighter - Karmic Strike
L7: Fighter - Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain)
L8: Fighter
L9: Fighter - Mobility, Elusive Target (or Improved Bull Rush + Shocktrooper)
wooti
05-24-07, 07:56 PM An idea just struck me while reading the gnome build thread, what about a charger, charge at the back most enemy and provoke as am attacks of oppotunity as you go by and hit them too (on a charge). Use a sword (two handed) against 5 reach opponents and a lance against 10 reach opponents. This would be very feat hungry so probably fighter mostly.

I don't have my books with me so I may get the prerequ

Human
Str 15
Dex 14
Con 14
Wis 10
Int 14
Cha 8

1. Fighter, Mounted combat, Power Attack, Ride by attack
2. Fighter, Spirited charge
3. Fighter, Karmic Strike
4. Fighter, Combat Expertise
5. Fighter,
6. Fighter, ?
7. Fighter,
8. Fighter, weapon focus lance (requirement for cavalier)
9+ Cavalier

Feat wise from here I would go towards either shock trooper or Elusive Target as quickly as posible, not sure which.

I would also think of droping human to be a gnome. Or halfling if I could work out a way of squeezing the feats in for halfling outrider.

I'm sure I could do better with my books but better if I had them with me.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jay_Ibero_911 05-23-07, 12:01 AM	Karmic Strike is a very cool feat, but also very hard to build around. It seems the only times it is beneficial are when the -4 to AC doesn't really affect your chances of being hit, either because your AC is so low that they always hit, or your AC is so high that they only hit on very high rolls. And generally it's a good idea for your damage output to be equivalent to the enemy's. So far, this is the only build I've been able to put together that I liked: Race:Human Alignment: STR-15 (8) DEX-14 (6) CON-14 (6) INT-14 (6) WIS-8 (0) CHA-10 (2) Lv1(Monk)Dodge, Combat Expertise Lv2(Monk)Combat Reflexes Lv3(Fighter)Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Focus(Great Scimitar) Lv4(Fighter)Power Attack, +1 STR Lv5(Barbarian) Lv6(Fighter)Extra Rage Lv7(Fighter)Weapon Specialization Lv8(Exotic Weapon Master)+1 STR Lv9(Bard)Karmic Strike Lv10(Warchanter) Lv11(Warchanter) Lv12(Warchanter)Melee Weapon Mastery, +1 STR Lv13(Dragon Disciple) Lv14(Dragon Disciple) Lv15(Dragon Disciple)Reckless Rage Attack at 15th, with reckless rage, +1 weapon, +6 belt, Haste, Inspire Recklessness BAB+12, +12 recklessness, +11 Str, +1 weapon, +1 focus, +2 MWM, , +1 Haste, -12 power attack=+28/+28/+23/+18 1d8 +24 PA +22 STR +4 feats +1 weapon=1d8+51 Bite=+21, 1d6+19 AC-12 recklessness-4 karmic strike-4reckless rage= -20 It's actaually possible to up the damage output by 2 by replacing the 2 monk levels with 2 more fighter levels taking combat expertise as the bonus feat, but the monk levels have too many other useful goodies. This one can be pretty equipment dependant though...ideally wanting +6 strength, dex, and con items for damage, AOO's, and HP. I'd like to see other people's ideas for Karmic Strike builds though...
bitznarf 05-23-07, 12:11 AM	IMO you need something Elusive Target to negate some of the damage comming back at you. Take a look at one of MwaO's Fighter14/Barb1 builds. I think he has them in the 597 Compendium.
clannagh 05-23-07, 12:27 AM	IMO you need something Elusive Target to negate some of the damage comming back at you. Take a look at one of MwaO's Fighter14/Barb1 builds. I think he has them in the 597 Compendium. indeed .. You would be especially vulnerable to groups of large hasted double toss master throwers full power attacking with brutal thrown large javelins .. even without a crit they are going to be whacking out up to 100 hp damage each a round and will be out of threat range of your karmic strike.
Jay_Ibero_911 05-23-07, 12:52 AM	indeed .. You would be especially vulnerable to groups of large hasted double toss master throwers full power attacking with brutal thrown large javelins .. even without a crit they are going to be whacking out up to 100 hp damage each a round and will be out of threat range of your karmic strike. Ranged attackers are the biggest vulnerability of any karmic strike build, just goes with the territory. And Elusive Target wouldn't help in that scenario anyway. Power Throw is not Power Attack, and therefore cannot be negated by Elusive Target...
boolean 05-23-07, 08:54 AM	I'd consider using dwarf instead of human. You lose the bonus feat, but you gain it back because you don't need EWP. (You use the proficiency with Dwarven Waraxe to enter Exotic WM.) The benefit of the higher con is obvious: The build plans on getting hit pretty often, so you want as many HP as you can get. The charisma penalty is a problem though. I'm not sure 8 cha + a cloak of charisma would allow you to qualify for DD.
Timlagor 05-23-07, 09:08 AM	I'd probbaly toss out the Weapon Spec stuff. It's great for TWF but makes less difference to the big 2-hander guys and you need the Elusive Target.
LachlarlanIII 05-23-07, 12:27 PM	Combat Brute (or was it the other one?) lets you trade BAB for more damage as well. One of the fellows in my area is playing an elf Barbarian/Fighter/Swashbuckler/Wildrunner. He's going to have around a +10 Dex bonus, and a -20 AC from Karmic Strike and Combat Brute. He charges, gets a full attack. Next round, he charges something else and gets a full attack. Whenever something attacks him for charging away, he gets an AoO. Whenever something takes a full attack against him, he gets an AoO for every hit. It's really nasty. It's also extremely fragile.
jstorrie 05-23-07, 10:28 PM	That's Shock Trooper, not Elusive Target. It definitely works well with Karmic Strike, for sure. It's tough to get Shock Trooper, Reckless Rage, Elusive Strike and Karmic Strike all in one package, though. For example: Human 1 Barbarian: Power Attack, Extra Rage 2 Barbarian: 3 Fighter: Dodge, Mobility 4 Fighter: Combat Expertise 5 Fighter: 6 Fighter: Elusive Target, Karmic Strike 7 Fighter 8 Fighter: Weapon Focus 9 Fighter: Weapon Specialization 10 Fighter: Melee Weapon Mastery 11 Fighter 12 Fighter: Reckless Rage, Improved Bull Rush 13 Fighter 14 Barbarian 15 Barbarian: Shock Trooper See MWaO's build in the compilation for more reference. The feats are just difficult to all manage in one 15-level build, but KS/ET is a pretty solid setup for a mostly-fighter or pure fighter. Reck Rage is probably the better choice over Shock Trooper, though; charge lanes get blocked, but Reck Rage can be 'always on.'
Maesto 05-24-07, 08:46 AM	The build I saw that used karmic strike came into it's prime about 6th level, and focussed on provoking attacks of opportunity. I think it went something like: Human 1. Fighter, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility 2. Fighter, Combat Reflexes 3. Fighter, Elusive Target 4. Fighter, Improved Trip 5. Fighter, 6. Fighter, Karmic Strike 7. Fighter, 8. Fighter, Power Attack 9. Barbarian, Weapon Focus (some weapon) 10-15. Dervish Instead of tumbling using dervish, actually provoke the attacks of opportunity through movement. Variations include inserting a swashbuckler level for weapon finesse, and using an elven courtblade with finesse, taking off some of the multiple attribute dependency because of the need for high dex for multiple AoOs.
Timlagor 05-24-07, 10:24 AM	js: Shock Trooper should come at 9th in that build with all the Weapon Feats afterwards.
copper_wyrmling 05-24-07, 03:05 PM	The build I saw that used karmic strike came into it's prime about 6th level, and focussed on provoking attacks of opportunity. I think it went something like: Human 1. Fighter, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility 2. Fighter, Combat Reflexes 3. Fighter, Elusive Target 4. Fighter, Improved Trip 5. Fighter, 6. Fighter, Karmic Strike 7. Fighter, 8. Fighter, Power Attack 9. Barbarian, Weapon Focus (some weapon) 10-15. Dervish Instead of tumbling using dervish, actually provoke the attacks of opportunity through movement. Variations include inserting a swashbuckler level for weapon finesse, and using an elven courtblade with finesse, taking off some of the multiple attribute dependency because of the need for high dex for multiple AoOs. This doesn't work, since Elusive Target requires BAB 6 - but you're missing a feat at 6, so just slot it in there. Dervish dance won't be usable in every fight until L15 (the point at which you have three dances / day). I'd like to see a karmic striker build that used the combat focus feats for fast healing (and thus didn't require so much healing investment to keep the PC alive), but I think the feat investment is too high. My minor variation on a karmic striker worked in Deft Opportunist: +4 to hit on AoOs seems really nice. I think Extra Rage (for +4 Con and +4 Str) is also pretty important. L1: Barbarian - Extra Rage, Combat Reflexes (use a glaive and armor spikes) L2: Fighter - Power Attack L3: Fighter - Deft Opportunist, Dodge L4: Fighter L5: Fighter - Combat Expertise L6: Fighter - Karmic Strike L7: Fighter - Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain) L8: Fighter L9: Fighter - Mobility, Elusive Target (or Improved Bull Rush + Shocktrooper)
wooti 05-24-07, 07:56 PM	An idea just struck me while reading the gnome build thread, what about a charger, charge at the back most enemy and provoke as am attacks of oppotunity as you go by and hit them too (on a charge). Use a sword (two handed) against 5 reach opponents and a lance against 10 reach opponents. This would be very feat hungry so probably fighter mostly. I don't have my books with me so I may get the prerequ Human Str 15 Dex 14 Con 14 Wis 10 Int 14 Cha 8 1. Fighter, Mounted combat, Power Attack, Ride by attack 2. Fighter, Spirited charge 3. Fighter, Karmic Strike 4. Fighter, Combat Expertise 5. Fighter, 6. Fighter, ? 7. Fighter, 8. Fighter, weapon focus lance (requirement for cavalier) 9+ Cavalier Feat wise from here I would go towards either shock trooper or Elusive Target as quickly as posible, not sure which. I would also think of droping human to be a gnome. Or halfling if I could work out a way of squeezing the feats in for halfling outrider. I'm sure I could do better with my books but better if I had them with me.