Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dal_johnson 02-13-07, 08:21 PM	I'm looking to try to make a grappler for LG. It would be monk, to figter, to Reaping Mauler. Can anybody suggest feats that I should consider through my character's progression? Any suggestions are always appreciated
Munkwunk 02-14-07, 05:38 PM	Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Scorpion Claw). The scorpion claw is an exotic weapon from Sandstorm which gives a +4 (unnamed) bonus to grapple checks and deals 1d6 slashing damage with a successful grapple check. You don't even need monk levels. Throw on some bonus energy damage, pick up Earth's Embrace, Barbarian 1 and Reckless Rage, and make sure you keep your BAB maxed. With full BAB, a high STR, Reckless Rage, Improved Grapple, and Scorpion Claws, you'll be grappling anything you can get your hands on.
Archwolf 02-14-07, 10:20 PM	Don't forget some means of enlarge and fly. If you mix in a level of sorceror you can enlarge to grapple those extra big beasties. A level of a cleric with strength domain would have the same effect plus healing. Both mean not having full BAB, but tempting anyway. For that matter, a few levels of cleric would get you enlarge and Bull's Strength, with only missing one point of BAB. Just be careful of XP penalties. Anyway, that might not be the flavor you want, but worth considering.
boogahwoof 02-15-07, 01:47 AM	i am not sure of excatly how his build went, but i played a con with a grappler who had some levels of sacred fist. he was amazing on a apl 12 table he grappled and killed a pit friend in 4 rounds by himself. sorry i dont know the excacts of his build but i do know he had sacred fist involved
Dr.Cornelius 02-15-07, 02:26 AM	1. Definitely start with Barbarian at 1st level for the extra HP. Don't even think about not taking a level of Barbarian: +10ft movement and Rage are well worth giving up heavy armor. Recommend sticking with light armor anyway. 2. Human is probably the best as you get an extra feat, but you could also go cheese-elf or half-orc. 3. Pick up Extra Rage no later than 3rd level. 4. One to Four levels of Cleric is highly recommended. Here are the best domains: Strength Domain - Feat of Strength once per day and Enlarge Person as a domain spell. Competition Domain(CD) - +1 on all opposed checks (i.e. grapple) Luck Domain - Reroll any roll once per day. Very, very useful. I would go with Cleric of Kord (Strength & Luck or Competition) or Zuoken (Strength & Celerity or War) Don't underestimate the usefulness of even one level of cleric. Other benefits: +2 Will save Useful 1st level spells like Obscuring Mist and Resurgence. Ability to use cleric scrolls and wands. 5. Close Quarters Fighting is highly recommended. No matter how high your grapple bonus, you will eventually run into a monster with more so it pays to be prepared.
genma_200 02-15-07, 02:26 AM	as my primary lg character is a monk 11/reaping mauler 3 (soon 4!), here would be my advice on sweet grapplin action. first: definately look at reaping mauler as your primary prestige class. it's got everything you need, and little you don't. secondly, buy potions of enlarge person, or a wand if you can get it. best money you'll spend as a grappler. 3rd, make sure you have either high str or dex (with weapon finesse). since opposed grapple checks work like unarmed strikes, i'd reccomend improved unarmed strike and weapon focus (grapple). finally, take a look at weakening touch. it's got stunning fist as a pre req, and requires a stunning fist use to hit, but it causes a -6 penalty to str (no save) if your attack roll hits. that's like adding 3 to your grapple check! get yourself an ioun stone that adds to attack rolls asap. a luck stone too, if you can find it. an amulet of mighty fists isa good purchase as well. and finally, remember to always grapple the caster sitting in the back.
Nutation 02-15-07, 01:15 PM	Delay Potion (CM). This feat lets you drink a potion of Enlarge Person and delay its effect for (Con modifier) hours. Activate it as a free action when combat begins. Pricy, but saves a standard action.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-15-07, 01:19 PM	Delay Potion (CM). This feat lets you drink a potion of Enlarge Person and delay its effect for (Con modifier) hours. Activate it as a free action when combat begins. Pricy, but saves a standard action. Yeah, definately a cool feat, especially if you have a very high con (like with a +6 stat boost), and maybe start with 18 after racial adjustments. Hold that potion for 7 hours...
jstorrie 02-15-07, 02:24 PM	Barbarians make much better grapplers than monks, because a grappling monk loses all of his AC. A barbarian in mithril fullplate doesn't. Human Str 16 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 12 Cha 8 1 Barbarian Extra Rage, Clever Wrestling 2 Fighter Improved Unarmed Strike 3 Fighter Reckless Rage, Improved Grapple 4 Fighter 5 Fighter Combat Focus 6 Reaping Mauler Mobility, Elusive Target, retrain Improved Grapple to Dodge, Improved Grapple 7 Reaping Mauler 8 Reaping Mauler 9 Reaping Mauler Combat Vigor 10 Reaping Mauler 11 Fighter 12 Fighter Combat Defense, Earth's Embrace 13 Fighter 14 Fighter Combat Stability 15 Fighter Combat Awareness This requires you to use your level 4 stat bump on Wis. Make sure to get magical, cold iron armor spikes, and magical, silvered gauntlets (or vice versa.) It helps if one or both have Sacred or Holy on them as well. Carry an adamantine bludgeoning weapon.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-15-07, 03:04 PM	Barbarians make much better grapplers than monks, because a grappling monk loses all of his AC. A barbarian in mithril fullplate doesn't. Human Str 16 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 12 Cha 8 1 Barbarian Extra Rage, Clever Wrestling 2 Fighter Improved Unarmed Strike 3 Fighter Reckless Rage, Improved Grapple 4 Fighter 5 Fighter Combat Focus 6 Reaping Mauler Mobility, Elusive Target, retrain Improved Grapple to Dodge, Improved Grapple 7 Reaping Mauler 8 Reaping Mauler 9 Reaping Mauler Combat Vigor 10 Reaping Mauler 11 Fighter 12 Fighter Combat Defense, Earth's Embrace 13 Fighter 14 Fighter Combat Stability 15 Fighter Combat Awareness This requires you to use your level 4 stat bump on Wis. Make sure to get magical, cold iron armor spikes, and magical, silvered gauntlets (or vice versa.) It helps if one or both have Sacred or Holy on them as well. Carry an adamantine bludgeoning weapon. Aren't you forgetting something in there? Like the 2nd level of Barbarian for Uncanny Dodge?
Munkwunk 02-15-07, 03:37 PM	Uncanny Dodge doesn't help you maintain your Dex to AC while you're grappling. I believe he meant that, if you're wearing Full Plate, your AC is still decent (because you're not fully relient on Dex+Wis to AC). My wife plays a Sacred Fist of Zuoken grappler, and that is certainly a good build. Decent BAB, Divine Power, Righteous Might/Righteous Wrath, and various other spells really help the build. I've seen her take 3 five-foot-steps in one round, 'cause she'd grapple, move in to her opponent's square, drop him, and grapple the enxt guy (lather, rinse, repeat). Cool stuff. Personally, I still prefer the non-monk route. Now that Scorpion Claws are Open, it's even more a viable build. I quickly drew up a Half-orc grappler who had a +38 to grapple at level 15 *before* combat buffs (but assuming raging and +6 STR item). That's medium sized, too. By contrast, a Huge-sized Storm Giant only has a +36 to grapple, and if it weren't for their pesky always-on Freedom of Movement, Mr. Half-orc would have a good shot of beating him even before getting buffed. Basically, I think it's better to shoot for the best grapple modifier possible *before* buffs, since buffs like Divien Power and Righteous Might take time to cast. Of course, Flurry of Blows in a grapple is hard to pass up. Decisions, decisions.
Daverius 02-15-07, 06:16 PM	Half-orc fighter/barbarian/outcast champion(minium 3) with Reckless Rage. Once per day you can give your self +8 str boost. Reckless rage + desperate fury. Heck if you are 11th barb, make that a +10 str boost. Greater reckless rage+desperate fury. starting stats: str19, dex13,con14,int6,wis12,cha6 boost str every 4 levels, you will have by level 15, a str of 22. Get a +6 str item. Str 28, reckles rage and desperate fury = 36 (38 if you have 11 levels of barb) BAB:+15, str+13(or14)+feat+4 = 32 or +33 grapple modifer. enlarged: +38
solbergb 02-15-07, 06:45 PM	I also play a character that has grapple as an important tactic, primary tactic in the lower levels before his flurry got really good. Here's the deal. Have a plan for when your opponent can not be grappled. This will happen more and more frequently as levels rise. The good news is...the same stuff that makes you a good grappler (high strength, full BAB, size) is the same thing that makes you do good melee damage. So just kill those things you can't grab. don't neglect your melee offense, and always remember -grappling isn't how you kill things. It's just a trick to take attacks away from an enemy till the party can deal with it (usually the party kills the thing you grappled, not you). If you want to kill things - just hit it. If you want to take away offense, grapple it. If it is dangerous even in a grapple, (or might have a verbal way of escaping like dim door) pin it. The only monk advantage to grapple is the flurry. More attempts at 40% can mean a higher overall chance of success than less attempts at 60%. If you're going to go monk, do the grapple/flurry thing. I personally don't think much of reaping mauler. It's requisites are stupid and wasteful (why in the world would a grappler need clever wrestling? You WANT to be in a grapple. If you don't the feat to take is close quarters combat...) and if you don't have imp grapple till you get its bonus feat, you weren't much of a grappler in the first half of your career. Four levels of fighter will likely give a grappler more than 5 levels of mauler, even with the +2 to grapple checks.
King Kashue 02-15-07, 07:33 PM	My wife plays a Sacred Fist of Zuoken grappler, and that is certainly a good build. Decent BAB, Divine Power, Righteous Might/Righteous Wrath, and various other spells really help the build. But, as you note, a build that requires multiple buffs really hampers the efficiency. And buffs like Righteous might don't come till rather late in your career if you're taking some fighter levels. Many people don't notice that despite taking upwards of an hour in real time, most high level fights don't actually take more than 4 or 5 rounds, and they don't appreciate that if you are spending the first round or two buffing, that's a huge cut in your effectiveness vs. someone who may be slightly less effective, but is active those two rounds. And I've got to question folks who are saying "Strength domain is great" and then giving builds with only one or two levels of cleric (not that you in particular are saying that)... You only get one enlarge person, you take a hit on your BAB, and your strength feat (which is only once per day) is your cleric level (+1 or +2), not your caster level. So basically, you get one enlarged fight per day (the first round of which you're casting a full spell and thus not fighting) and once per day you get to bump your grapple by one, and you're trading BAB (and thus grapple) I've seen her take 3 five-foot-steps in one round, 'cause she'd grapple, move in to her opponent's square, drop him, and grapple the enxt guy (lather, rinse, repeat). Cool stuff. Edit: Figured out what you're describing... Though I'm not sure why she's using iterative attacks to start then abandon each grapple, instead of pinning... And I also hope the DM is taking the proper AoOs, because if she does it more than once (or after moving up to the first opponent) that's normal movement, not a 5-foot step (since you can only have one of those per round)... That's medium sized, too. By contrast, a Huge-sized Storm Giant only has a +36 to grapple, and if it weren't for their pesky always-on Freedom of Movement, Mr. Half-orc would have a good shot of beating him even before getting buffed. There's also the fact that you automatically lose a grapple check to hold any creature two or more sizes larger than you (PHB, p. 156)
Munkwunk 02-15-07, 09:07 PM	Edit: Figured out what you're describing... Though I'm not sure why she's using iterative attacks to start then abandon each grapple, instead of pinning... And I also hope the DM is taking the proper AoOs, because if she does it more than once (or after moving up to the first opponent) that's normal movement, not a 5-foot step (since you can only have one of those per round)... I realize I probably wasn't very clear. She was actually killing each creature (they had already been softened up). When the one she was grappling dropped, she used her enxt attack action (with Flurry + Haste) to grab the next guy. Killed him and moved on to the next. Also, under the Grapple rules Step 4: Maintain Grapple. To maintain the grapple for later rounds, you must move into the target’s space. (This movement is free and doesn’t count as part of your movement in the round.) Three adjacent allies, and she moved in to each one's square as a free action during a full-attack action. It was interesting to see, but the likelihood of it ever happening again is probably pretty slim. I totally agree with you about picking up a level of Cleric for the STrength domain; it's nto worth it. Competition is sort of nice, but the +1 bonus to opposed checks doesn't make up for the +0 BAB. Monks can make good grapplers, and Sacred Fists have some useful buffs, but unless you can quicken them somehow (and DMM: Quicken is out of the question now) I don't think it's the optimal way to go. I'd much rather go Fighter/Barbarian (and I agree that Reaping Mauler isn't really that great) and just stick with the basics. This method also gives you the flexability to just flat-out deal damage when you can't grapple your target.
King Kashue 02-16-07, 12:19 AM	I realize I probably wasn't very clear. She was actually killing each creature (they had already been softened up). When the one she was grappling dropped, she used her enxt attack action (with Flurry + Haste) to grab the next guy. Killed him and moved on to the next. Also, under the Grapple rules Step 4: Maintain Grapple. To maintain the grapple for later rounds, you must move into the target’s space. (This movement is free and doesn’t count as part of your movement in the round.) Three adjacent allies, and she moved in to each one's square as a free action during a full-attack action. It was interesting to see, but the likelihood of it ever happening again is probably pretty slim. Gotcha...Though note the next sentence, that movement, while not counting against your movement for the round, is normal movement for AoOs. And that movement doesn't provoke for the person you're grabbing, it does for anyone else. Which is why when I misconceived of it and thought she was releasing people, the people she releases (in the hypothetical) would have gotten AoOs... Anyhoo, I'm happy with my Swashbuckler/Barbarian/Fighter/Ranger/Reaping Mauler/Bear Warrior/Warshaper Grappler :D He's my one min/maxed character (of 10), but he's a doozy :D
Munkwunk 02-16-07, 01:00 AM	Yeah. Fortunately, dead critters don't provoke. :) Anyhoo, I'm happy with my Swashbuckler/Barbarian/Fighter/Ranger/Reaping Mauler/Bear Warrior/Warshaper Grappler That si quite admirable! I had a very similar build in mind with one character, though it was simpler: fighter/barbarian/bear warrior/war shaper (no Swash or Ranger). Unfortunately, he only made it to level 2 before getting one-shotted by a Vampire at APL4. He was one heckuva grappler at first and second level, though.
King Kashue 02-16-07, 01:09 AM	Yeah. Fortunately, dead critters don't provoke. :) That si quite admirable! I had a very similar build in mind with one character, though it was simpler: fighter/barbarian/bear warrior/war shaper (no Swash or Ranger). Unfortunately, he only made it to level 2 before getting one-shotted by a Vampire at APL4. He was one heckuva grappler at first and second level, though. The Swash and Ranger were to get enough skill points to even make reaping mauler. A Half-Orc with an Int of 6 doesn't get much in the way of skills :D
rockondon 02-16-07, 01:55 AM	are grapplers actually effective at higher levels? I don't know much about grappling. I've only seen one grappler and he's horrible. At higher levels the monsters are large with 4 legs and 30 strength so he usually fails his grapple checks, if he does make the grapple check then no one can do ranged attacks anymore, he always gets AoO's from monsters with reach, his damage sucks, it soaks up a lot of feats, he's constantly in need of healing, so many monsters are ones you don't want to grapple (puddings, fire elementals, etc). But he sucks at building characters so I take that with a grain of salt. I'm curious what a better grappler build looks like, particularly at medium levels like 4,5,6. How would a good grappler compare to, for example, a good power attacking greatsword wielder?
Daverius 02-16-07, 02:11 AM	are grapplers actually effective at higher levels? I don't know much about grappling. I've only seen one grappler and he's horrible. At higher levels the monsters are large with 4 legs and 30 strength so he usually fails his grapple checks, if he does make the grapple check then no one can do ranged attacks anymore, he always gets AoO's from monsters with reach, his damage sucks, it soaks up a lot of feats, he's constantly in need of healing, so many monsters are ones you don't want to grapple (puddings, fire elementals, etc). But he sucks at building characters so I take that with a grain of salt. I'm curious what a better grappler build looks like, particularly at medium levels like 4,5,6. How would a good grappler compare to, for example, a good power attacking greatsword wielder? Grappling is a neat trick to have. Your power attacking greatsword wielder is usueless when it is grabbed. A fighter with the improved grapple feat will have a +4 bonus to avoiding grapples...and even if they are grappled they still stand a chance to pin the grappling monster on their turn...(if they are not swallowed whole or paralzyed). Grappling is a great way to lock down spell casters, especally the uber AC buffed druids and clerics that keep summoning things in. Now against monsters....I wouldn't really use grappling as a technique. My fighter can dish out decent damage...so I'll just whack at them until they stop moving. However, if we are ever up against humaniod oppoenents...and depending on circumstances, a good grapple could come in handy...espeically in the mod where you are suppose to keep someone alive. Another factor is party make up. In your example it sounded like you had a lot of ranged players, so in that sense grappling would not help the party much since they stand a chance at shooting their teamates. However in a party of other melee folks, grabbing and pinning the monster can allow the other players to swing away while you (the grappler) soak up the abuse.
King Kashue 02-16-07, 02:15 AM	are grapplers actually effective at higher levels? If they're built properly, and played properly, absolutely. My grappler can break many encounters if I wanted to (I generally don't cheese nearly as much as is possible, unless the mod is cutthroat). You need a build with a grapple in the mid-20s or higher at 11th-12th level. That's also the advantage of non monk builds. My 11th level Bear warrior can grapple most stuff in LG, but if he needs to beat on stuff with a big stick, he's still doing unbuffed 1d12+14+power attack with a non-power attack bonus of +20 (and that's only with a +1 weapon and no weapon focus or spec).
ranagrande 02-16-07, 02:35 AM	A power attacking greatsword wielder is going to do more damage than a grappler every time. However, dealing damage isn't (or shouldn't be) the most important thing for a grappler. I currently have a Monk 2/Fighter 1 grapple specialist. Generally, I single out the biggest threat in an encounter, and I neutralize it. Grappling can prevent enemy fighters from using powerful weapons, and it can prevent enemy casters from using spells. It's also a pretty reliable tactic. As a third level character, unbuffed, I have a grapple modifier of +15. I started carrying scrolls of Enlarge Person, and if I can get someone to use one on me, I have a grapple modifier of +20. At level 3, that's nearly always an automatic win.
solbergb 02-16-07, 02:54 AM	are grapplers actually effective at higher levels? ? Yes, but only if you only grapple the grappleable stuff, and just kill the big strong stuff. There is a lot of stuff at APL12-14 that is size medium or even size large but half BAB or not especially strong for size large. Many of those things have potent spell abilities or nasty full attacks that are greatly reduced via grapple. The FAQ rule that tripped things are -4 to grapple also helps monks who trip, or mixed tactical fighter builds that both grapple and trip (or overrun and trip). If you try to grapple a grapplemonster you'll lose. Most good grapplers ALSO work close quarters combat in, to make sure they're capable of staying out if they want to. Also..you get a lot of attacks at high level. You're hasted. You have either high BAB or flurry or both. That means more shots for the d20 swing to work in your favor. But you have to pick your targets. The hill giant dire-boar is NOT a good target. Nor is the size huge outsider (full BAB). That construct - maybe if it hasn't been advanced too high. That archer over there dishing out 100 points of damage a round? Easy meat. What I do, I move in and do the tactical stuff (trip, followed by grapple or sometimes just a grapple, depends on what I think the odds are). The single attack isn't gonna remove him anyway, the tactical feat improves the odds he'll still be there to full attack. If I think I can kill him in a full attack, I do so. If not, and he's dangerous, I grapple and pin with a full attack. I only have to succeed in two of 5 attempts to neutralize a foe. He can be a better grappler than me and still be useless for a round. If you just are a one-trick pony though, and try to grapple everything, you'll be unhappy. That stops working well around APL6-8. Luckily right around then, your full attack becomes a significant threat, or at least it should if you're any good at grappling. You ARE strong right? You should have a potent melee attack.
King Kashue 02-16-07, 02:55 AM	It's also a pretty reliable tactic. As a third level character, unbuffed, I have a grapple modifier of +15. How? Bab +2, Str 22 (max) +6, Imp grapple +4, Weapon Focus Grapple +1, that's +13, assuming a max strength Half-Orc or Half-Elf spending their first 4,000 on gauntlets of Ogre Power. Are you using Scorpion claws?
solbergb 02-16-07, 03:00 AM	..
solbergb 02-16-07, 03:02 AM	That's also the advantage of non monk builds. My 11th level Bear warrior can grapple most stuff in LG, but if he needs to beat on stuff with a big stick, he's still doing unbuffed 1d12+14+power attack with a non-power attack bonus of +20 (and that's only with a +1 weapon and no weapon focus or spec). My monk is typically at +21/21/21/21/16 2d6+10 so don't discount the monk builds. When he works at it, that attack can go up to 3d6+d8+11 briefly, or 5d6+10 vs constructs. He got fires of purity on him once and that was just wasted overkill. That's at level 13. At level 12 it was the same with less "go big" options, at 11 not quite as good (one less BAB, bracers of quickstrike instead of boots of haste, d10 instead of 2d6 damage). It still got the job done. His grapple score is about 20 unbuffed, 25 with enlarge. That's not as good as the bear warrior, but I get four tries at my top iterative, and my success rate is about the same vs most opponents that are grappleable. Improved trip (+11 medium sized, +16 large sized) often gets me an extra +4, and most barbs can't work that feat in. Not all monks are wusses on the damage front. Most monks built to grapple are also bruisers with the full attack. Now I am using GMW+3 or GMF+3, but I have not been without that since level 11 at any table. He'll have power attack next level too, and the ability to under some circumstances enlarge himself as a swift action. I'm not as good on the single attack but I've been working at that - it's only 2d4+2d6+11 (with option to add 2d6 or d8 more sometimes) and the attack mod is kinda weak (trip helps) but power attack and proficiency with the weapon without using master's touch next level will help a bit. In the low levels Burke did pretty well at shutting down encounters with a +8-+10 score in APL2-4. At APL6, his L5 grapple score of +11 was showing its strain, but once he got it to +14 at L6 it started working again. Use of enlarge potions rose as levels rose, but so did his cash flow.
ranagrande 02-16-07, 03:48 AM	How? Bab +2, Str 22 (max) +6, Imp grapple +4, Weapon Focus Grapple +1, that's +13, assuming a max strength Half-Orc or Half-Elf spending their first 4,000 on gauntlets of Ogre Power. Are you using Scorpion claws? Yep, scorpion claws make up the rest. He's a half-orc with a strength of 20, so +5 strength, +4 Improved Grapple, +4 Scorpion Claws, +2 BAB. Does Weapon Focus(Grapple) add to all checks? I was told it was only added to the initial touch attack to start a grapple.
King Kashue 02-16-07, 04:12 AM	My monk is typically at +21/21/21/21/16 2d6+10 so don't discount the monk builds. When he works at it, that attack can go up to 3d6+d8+11 briefly, or 5d6+10 vs constructs. He got fires of purity on him once and that was just wasted overkill. That's at level 13. At level 12 it was the same with less "go big" options, at 11 not quite as good (one less BAB, bracers of quickstrike instead of boots of haste, d10 instead of 2d6 damage). It still got the job done. His grapple score is about 20 unbuffed, 25 with enlarge. That's not as good as the bear warrior At Level 13, how are you getting 5 attacks in your flurry, when that happens at 14th? Otherwise you're comparing a Level 11 to a level 14. And the grapple is nearly 5-10 lower than a barbarian build (depending) of the same level, that's a big deal. The monk build is a decent bit more versatile though. And it will usually have a much better AC (less hit points though...I don't know too many 11th level monks with 188 hit points :D)
King Kashue 02-16-07, 04:19 AM	Does Weapon Focus(Grapple) add to all checks? I was told it was only added to the initial touch attack to start a grapple. It's not explicit in the PHB, nor is it clarified in the FAQ. Merely giving you a bonus on the melee touch attack seems insignificant for the cost of a feat. Most judges I know give the bonus on the grapple, though some don't. As is often said "expect table variation" :D
solbergb 02-16-07, 12:01 PM	At Level 13, how are you getting 5 attacks in your flurry, when that happens at 14th? Otherwise you're comparing a Level 11 to a level 14. And the grapple is nearly 5-10 lower than a barbarian build (depending) of the same level, that's a big deal. The monk build is a decent bit more versatile though. And it will usually have a much better AC (less hit points though...I don't know too many 11th level monks with 188 hit points :D) Haste attack. I have boots of haste. There is an option for 6th with fist of stone but I rarely exercise it. As noted, dumping the enemy on their rear helps with the grapple deficiency compared to the barbarian. That's four points. Run the numbers on four primary attacks vs two sometime. Getting twice as many opportunities raises the odds a lot on both tripping and grappling. As for AC - nah. I have crappy AC. I had a brief shining moment with wand of alter self where for most of a level I sometimes had half decent AC. Now I have 4000gp and change and am back to the usual. Your hitpoints are much higher, yes. I on the other hand can extract myself from any situation if I have even a single hitpoint left (the rare thing I can't tumble away from, I can abundant step out of), and tend to take less damage from spells, and am also less likely to be simply incapacitated by spells or even battlefield control. Both approaches work as a grappler. What they have in common is that they have some defenses (barb hitpoints, monk saves+mobility) and their grapple attacks are in the same ballpark, if you factor in number of attacks and trip penalties, and finally both characters hit very hard in melee. The barb will usually hit a bit harder in full attack and much harder in single attack, but the difference is academic. Stuff dies if it stands next to either character. At 15th level I get a second iterative but if my earlier grapples didn't work, I hardly expect the one at -10 is going to work. Generally you stick a grapple in the primary attacks if you're going to stick it at all, although sometimes the secondary gets lucky.
Alpha_Nerd 02-16-07, 12:09 PM	Even though Wild Shape has been nerfed, I still think a Druid 7/Nature's Warrior 5/Warshaper 3 is the best grapple machine. Take Imp Unarmed and Imp Grapple at 1st, Track at 3rd, Natural spell at 6th, and Power Attack at 9. Shift into a Dire Bear at 12th, Improved Grab/Grapple if Same size them, and start doing damage equal to Unarmed Strike + Constrict until they go unconcious, then switch targets and repeat.
Japangirl 02-16-07, 01:11 PM	You forgot the monk level. Druid 6/Monk 1/Nature's Warrior 5/Warshaper 3 or probably Druid 7/Monk 1/Nature's Warrior 5/Warshaper 2. Monk gives you saves, flurry, Wis bonus to AC, and +4 to grapple. It also gives you Imp Grapple and Imp Unarmed Strike for free, opening up feats for other stuff like Quick Reconnoiter or CWI or, really, anything your heart could desire. Weapon Focus (claw or bite or unarmed), Improved Natural Attack, things like that.
King Kashue 02-16-07, 03:00 PM	Even though Wild Shape has been nerfed, I still think a Druid 7/Nature's Warrior 5/Warshaper 3 is the best grapple machine. If we're going on straight grapple, my munchkin can beat up your munchkin :D I'll be at over +40 grapple (I don't remember the exact number off hand, since I'm not at home to work it out), unbuffed.
King Kashue 02-16-07, 03:02 PM	As for AC - nah. I have crappy AC. Heh...My AC is 9...There's a reason I have 188 hitpoints :D At 15th level I get a second iterative but if my earlier grapples didn't work, I hardly expect the one at -10 is going to work. Generally you stick a grapple in the primary attacks if you're going to stick it at all, although sometimes the secondary gets lucky. That's the other advantage. As I noted, I'll be over +40, so it's +40,+35,+30. Throw in a haste attack and it's gravy :D
Alpha_Nerd 02-16-07, 03:30 PM	Lets see, Strength of a Dire Bear: 31 +3 Inherent Bumps: 34 (Assuming they affect your wild shape form, I've heard inherent bonuses do) +4 Bear's Strength: 38 +4 Warshaper: 42 STR +2 Wolverine's Rage (Wild Feat): 44 STR +12 BAB +17 Strength +4 Improved Grapple +4 Serpent's Coils (Nature's Warrior thing) +4 Large For a grand total of: +41, +36, +31 So even if you are better than me on the roll, it's not too much.
solbergb 02-16-07, 04:32 PM	My AC is only 15, 19 with mage armor, so it's better but a distinction without a difference. Yeah, if you mix in the wildshape stuff things get really nuts. Shapeshifters do make the best grapplers, no question. My monk just punches them real hard. 188 hitpoints is still two full attacks though, which means I'll probably get creamed. You won't generally grapple me though, since the close quarters combat will work barring a fluke of dice, and if you give me free AOO's I actually can get through 188 hitpoints. It takes about 9 attacks, give or take a bit depending on buffs cast by others or self. The right approach is, after I take away 130ish of your hitpoints that you do the same to me, dropping me :)
Japangirl 02-16-07, 05:32 PM	Does CQC hit an AC 49 most of the time? Admittedly, I'm working off the druid shaper I know, and he has +5 Wild full plate and +1 Wild tower shield, but I wouldn't count on getting to add dice/damage to grapple checks most of the time. Also, your stat bumps as you level are not "inherent bumps", they're just special things you get. So if you get a favor that gives you an inherent bump to something, that would add, but the three stat bumps from leveling don't count. Drop base strength back to a 31. However, you can enlarge a wildshaped druid into a bigger wildshaped druid, giving +5 to grapple checks from that (+1 STR, +4 size).
King Kashue 02-16-07, 05:32 PM	Lets see, Strength of a Dire Bear: 31 +3 Inherent Bumps: 34 (Assuming they affect your wild shape form, I've heard inherent bonuses do) They don't...Level bumps are not bonuses, they're "increases" 4 Bear's Strength: 38 Unbuffed :P +12 BAB +13 Strength +4 Improved Grapple +4 Serpent's Coils (Nature's Warrior thing) +4 Large For a grand total of: +37, +31, +26 Adjusted... Still a nice build though (and with 7 levels of druid you've got a number of other useful skills my guy doesn't...I have jump...that's about it :D)
King Kashue 02-16-07, 05:36 PM	My AC is only 15, 19 with mage armor, so it's better but a distinction without a difference. Yeah, if you mix in the wildshape stuff things get really nuts. Shapeshifters do make the best grapplers, no question. My monk just punches them real hard. 188 hitpoints is still two full attacks though, which means I'll probably get creamed. You won't generally grapple me though, since the close quarters combat will work barring a fluke of dice, and if you give me free AOO's I actually can get through 188 hitpoints. It takes about 9 attacks, give or take a bit depending on buffs cast by others or self. The right approach is, after I take away 130ish of your hitpoints that you do the same to me, dropping me :) I also can't be crit, or sneak attacked, etc...Don't know how much of that sort of damage you have in there (if any)... CQB only gives you one AoO though, since you can't get multiple AoOs for the same reason against one opponent in the same round (i.e., only one "moving out of a threatened square AoO, etc)... And actually, CQB would be irrelevant against my guy, since I have 10' reach and you don't :D (The FAQ states that you must threaten in order to get an AoO)... It'd be a good fight :D At 13th level I'll have 226 hp (or so, that math is in my head), and I should have my animated shield by then, so you might actually miss once in a dozen attacks :D
King Kashue 02-16-07, 05:41 PM	However, you can enlarge a wildshaped druid into a bigger wildshaped druid, giving +5 to grapple checks from that (+1 STR, +4 size). He's already in Dire Bear form, the enlarge won't stack.
Japangirl 02-16-07, 05:49 PM	Yes, yes it will. Wild shape is not based on a spell anymore, so that increases his size with a supernatural ability, then the spell increases his size. The LGCS only says *spells* cannot increase your size more than one size category. That may change, but until then, it's perfectly valid.
King Kashue 02-16-07, 06:02 PM	Yes, yes it will. Wild shape is not based on a spell anymore, so that increases his size with a supernatural ability, then the spell increases his size. The LGCS only says *spells* cannot increase your size more than one size category. That may change, but until then, it's perfectly valid. I'll just quote what I wrote in the other thread where someone said this :P "It's not an LGCS issue, it's a PHB spell text issue :D PHB p. 227 "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack" It's not just spells, but magical effects, which includes spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities (which is what Druid wildshape is). DMG p. 289 "Supernatural Abilities are magical, but not spell-like." Which is, of course, why they're suppressed in an anti-magic field."
Japangirl 02-16-07, 06:16 PM	Bah! Bah I say! Stupid rules :weep: . OK i concede my mistake on this one. Out of curiosity, how does a medium sized monk get a +40 to grapple? I ran through everything I could think of, added some highly improbable things, and still came out with not-that-high.
Daverius 02-16-07, 06:32 PM	A power attacking greatsword wielder is going to do more damage than a grappler every time. However, dealing damage isn't (or shouldn't be) the most important thing for a grappler. I currently have a Monk 2/Fighter 1 grapple specialist. Generally, I single out the biggest threat in an encounter, and I neutralize it. Grappling can prevent enemy fighters from using powerful weapons, and it can prevent enemy casters from using spells. It's also a pretty reliable tactic. As a third level character, unbuffed, I have a grapple modifier of +15. I started carrying scrolls of Enlarge Person, and if I can get someone to use one on me, I have a grapple modifier of +20. At level 3, that's nearly always an automatic win. How are you getting a grapple check that high at level 3? You only have a bab+2, +4 feat for feat that's +6. You have a str of 28?
King Kashue 02-16-07, 07:23 PM	Bah! Bah I say! Stupid rules :weep: . OK i concede my mistake on this one. Out of curiosity, how does a medium sized monk get a +40 to grapple? I ran through everything I could think of, added some highly improbable things, and still came out with not-that-high. My character isn't a monk, he's a Swashbuckler/Fighter/Barbarian/Ranger/Reaping Mauler/Bear Warrior/Warshaper :D
King Kashue 02-16-07, 07:24 PM	How are you getting a grapple check that high at level 3? You only have a bab+2, +4 feat for feat that's +6. You have a str of 28? He explained on the first page, post #27... Yep, scorpion claws make up the rest. He's a half-orc with a strength of 20, so +5 strength, +4 Improved Grapple, +4 Scorpion Claws, +2 BAB.
Japangirl 02-16-07, 07:44 PM	My character isn't a monk, he's a Swashbuckler/Fighter/Barbarian/Ranger/Reaping Mauler/Bear Warrior/Warshaper :D I am impressed, sir. I am impressed. My halfling rogue still wins :).
solbergb 02-16-07, 08:40 PM	Hitting AC41 would be difficult. I would need a bit of help. The guy I was having the conversation with comparing, er, bicep size, was AC9. Introducing druids with wild armor and maxed out spell buffs changes things. To beat up druids with AC41 and freedom of movement no doubt, I would need a little help from my friends to get the attack mods a bit higher or to debuff the druid and strip some of that AC away. In the 5 levels or so since I've had close quarters combat I've missed with it exactly once. rolled a 2, and then rerolled and got a 1. That was annoying, but that's what abundant step is for. I've encountered an AC41 opponent exactly once, and that was an incorporeal with combat expertise. That was annoying. Getting back to the bragging session with the bear warrior :) The monk requires no critical hits or precision damage of any kind. All damage is either straight up damage or energy (usually fire, but vicious and capsule retainers for quickfrost or quickspark sometimes also get to play). Each grapple attempt is a separate close quarters combat opportunity. Assuming the guy with CQF has combat reflexes, which about 95% of them do. The ONLY time multiple of the same thing doesn't provoke is movement. That is an EXCEPTION. Stand up, drop prone, stand up again, you get AOO'd twice. 3.0 was different. It was also a long time ago. What makes you think I don't have reach? I always carry a guisarme, I flurry with my enchanted foot. I have 10' reach when medium, 20' reach when large. I tend to get my CQF attacks in just fine. I prefer using the guisarme on AOO's for low AC targets, because it does more in a single hit than my foot does. Yeah, at L13, assuming we were in a barroom brawl kind of situation where we kind of end up next to each other at the beginning, if you go first, I die, unless you muck around with grapples, get cut and hurt enough for me to finish you with one full attack. If I go first, and just duke it out, I have a decent chance, tower shield or no, of hitting every time and killing in two flurries. The question is can you do 118 points of damage in one full attack vs AC19? My guess is that you probably can. Which is why my usual tactics against somebody like you as an enemy would be to enlarge myself somehow and try to control your full attacks with superior reach and trip, while getting in full attacks and AOO's myself (admittedly inferior guisarme full attacks, but still). I've had failry good success at that over the years, but it isn't a sure thing. The way APL tiering works though, a CR13 version of you would have only 1-2 friends and I'd have 3-5 friends. This means one vs one stuff is more often CR13 me vs CR11 melee bruiser or it is my whole party vs 1-2 CR14-17 guys. It's good to be a PC :) The really fun thing is when I get to team with somebody like you. I had a L15 bear warrior in the party and we tag teamed a bunch of stuff in a Greyhawk mod recently.
Japangirl 02-16-07, 09:47 PM	Hehe fair enough. AC 9 is a lot lot easier to hit than AC 49 . . . Sadly, I keep seeing AC 40+ in recent mods. APL 14 is not friendly :( .
ShinAkuma2 02-17-07, 12:27 AM	CQB only gives you one AoO though, since you can't get multiple AoOs for the same reason against one opponent in the same round (i.e., only one "moving out of a threatened square AoO, etc)... That's a misinterpretation...A single action can't provoke more than once for the same reason, but multiple grapple checks are multiple provoking acts.
Dr.Cornelius 02-17-07, 03:28 AM	My monk ... Burke did pretty well ...Hey - what are the prerequisties for the Burking feat? or Burker PrC? Just tell me his first name is not William...
King Kashue 02-17-07, 05:00 AM	That's a misinterpretation...A single action can't provoke more than once for the same reason, but multiple grapple checks are multiple provoking acts. Ah, you're right. I remembered that passage as giving movement as an example of seemingly multiple opportunities, but it's actually specifically saying "movement" is itself a single opportunity, and not using it as an example of a class of actions...
solbergb 02-17-07, 11:29 AM	Hey - what are the prerequisties for the Burking feat? or Burker PrC? Just tell me his first name is not William... Actually there are the "Burklings", and they do have prereqs. They're "action movie" theatre people, who cross-train in the Ogberg Bardic College and the main Disciples of Discipline monastary. They get trained to do the kind of stuff you see in hong-kong martial arts movies (with Burke being kind of the Jackie Chan figiure). People working for the requisites (members of both metaorgs but at lower levels) may also be called Burklings by outsiders. Requirements: Tumble 9 ranks, Balance 6 ranks, Jump 5 ranks, Perform(Acting) 9 ranks Improved Unarmed Strike. Membership as Theatre of Performing Arts (Journeyman or better) in Ogberg Bardic College and Aspirant(Brother or better) level of Disciples of Discipline. Benefits: bonuses to acting, tumble, balance, climb, jump, bluff (ok, provided by metaorgs but...) He lead them to war once, and they did pretty well until the cloudkills went off. But a few survived to carry on, and Burke personally taught one graduating class. Some show up to his seminars in the Brotherhood of Arms now for further training. Many of them have rather low wisdoms for a monk, much as Burke does. Some of them aren't even monks, they just have improved unarmed strike and the skills. They are not popular with either the College or the Disciples, but they are popular with some theatre fans. (When you are an instructor for 6 months in one org and a master in the other and do a performance result of 40 with no magial assistance, there are longer term consequences, even if both Metaorgs changed the rules and prevented Burke from teaching anymore) When Burke was providing direction these thespians were mostly focused on making Pholtan morality plays accessible to those with less refined tastes (children, orcs, drunk commoners, uneducated people, foreign heathens). These days, they do whatever the ranking Burkling in the area favors, which may or may not have anything to do with Pholtus. Because of the religious training provided by both orgs though, many are devout Pholtans. They just evangalize....differently.
King Kashue 02-17-07, 01:24 PM	What makes you think I don't have reach? I always carry a guisarme For some reason I thought you were a sacred fist. http://ebassist.com/forum/images/smilies/dunno.gif
solbergb 02-17-07, 09:42 PM	Sacred fist kind of requires wisdom greater than 8 if you want to do anything. Burke doesn't really believe in giving up weapons either. He gave up the path of Rage for Discipline. That spiritual journey has nothing to do with what toys you get to use :)
Ancillary 02-19-07, 03:50 PM	I have a grappler, a Brb 1/ Fgt 2/ Rgr 2/ Occ Slr 2/ Br War 5/ WrShp 1. In bear form, unbuffed, I have a grapple check of +36. With warshaper and one more +1 BAB class I will end my career at + 40 grapple. Taking reaping mauler gives you another +1 to grapple but I do not believe it is worth it at all. My two levels of Occult Slayer give way more and it has better pre-reqs. Now that delay potion and Scorpion claws are options I may not have gone bear warrior. It is still the best unbuffed grappler, but levels 2 - 4 are some heavy slogging. As for grappler play theory, at lower levels you can grapple most things. At higher levels you can grapple most things size huge or less. At mid levels you grapple less things (Big Bear at 12 is the major stepping stone). My full attack in bear form is pretty brutal (I twf with unarmed strikes and then add a claw and bite) so just killing things is often a better option than grappling them. The problem is DR other than magic, but you can always attack in humanoid form if you need to (Wood Elf for me). A grappler maximizes strength so the ability to fall back and hit things is always there. Buy a good bow as well. If you are the only tank, it is often better not to grapple if there are several bruisers on the other side as you will effectively take yourself out of the fight and the rest of the party will get hit. Defensively illusion spells like blur and displacement are huge if you are a Barbarian grappler. Monks generally have a higher AC so don't need to worry as much. Make sure you get it written on an AR when you pin cool things (first large thing, first Huge thing, etc) Don't try and grapple things if you are at any disadvantage as just attacking is better for the party. Only grapple a dragon if you are feeling brave. Be the best grappler you can be, but try to be good other things at well. A bear warrior with a level of ranger makes an awesome tracker. I love my grappling character, he is my primary character and always is fun to play and contributes to the adventures. If we are comparing grappling modifiers I can count on having an unbuffed +8 if I need it. I have bracelets that lets me share personal spells with casters. So if I delay past my g/f she can take an immediate action and cast fearsome grapple on both of us for +8 to grapple. +44 is enough for most things, and I would still get a point of strength bonus from bulls strength for an even +45 at level 13, +49 at level 15. The best thing I have pinned is the Huge Dire Alligator animal companion of an arcane heirophant. He had a check of +38 but I got lucky with my rolls, it was fun to watch the DM's face.
King Kashue 02-19-07, 05:51 PM	I have a grappler, a Brb 1/ Fgt 2/ Rgr 2/ Occ Slr 2/ Br War 5/ WrShp 1. In bear form, unbuffed, I have a grapple check of +36. With warshaper and one more +1 BAB class I will end my career at + 40 grapple. Taking reaping mauler gives you another +1 to grapple but I do not believe it is worth it at all. My two levels of Occult Slayer give way more and it has better pre-reqs. However, if you don't have a Dex of 13, then you have to get the feat as a class ability. And having a dex of 13 (or 14, which is the more logical), requires a Con of only 14 instead of 16 (assuming we're maxing out Str). As for Occult slayer giving way more, you're not getting the Weapon Bond bonus in bear form, so what you get is the +1 on saves vs. spells (which is nice) and mind over magic 1/day (which has limited utility with a crappy spellcraft). Vicious Strike is a joke, especially for a grappler. As for grappler play theory, at lower levels you can grapple most things. At higher levels you can grapple most things size huge or less. You can :D That's another advantage to being a large creature, and something monks cannot do without some caster help. According to the rules, you automatically fail any hold attempt on a creature two or more sizes larger than you. Therefore, you have to be large to grapple something Huge. And just a note, it looks like you're counting the +1 from Weapon Focus Grapple in your grapple check (I'm assuming 24 Str, + 16 Bear, +12 BAB, +4 Imp Grapple, +4 Size, which is +35). According to the FAQ, Grapple Checks are not attack checks, and since weapon focus adds +1 to attack checks, it therefore doesn't add to grapple checks. I think that defining it that way is goofy and defeats the intentions of the feat, but until it's clarified, that's the explicit definitions for use in LG...
Ancillary 02-19-07, 10:43 PM	My base character had a Con of 12 and a dex of 16 as a result of being a wood elf. Since I can wear a Con stat item in bear form but not a dex one, it all evens out. Occult Slayer gives you good will saves. Mind over magic only really works against domination effects, but that is my weakness anyway. One get out of jail free card is generally enough. Once I even charmed an erynes. The +1 to all saves also shores up the character's weak point the will save. Also you take weapon focus and vicious strike with a bow. You ready against spellcasting the first turn (going early is likely with improved init, and running away from your buffers does not pay dividends) I am a decent shot with straight BAB (except shaper) and a 18 dex and if I hit the spellcaster takes d6 +2d8 + 14 and needs to make a concentration check in the 30s on average to keep the spell. Once I buy a +8 bow another 4 points will be tacked onto that. GMW just makes it sweeter. That puts the pressure on them to come to me, so I can take a full attack instead of a move and attack. I have a strength Ioun stone for a total of 26 strength. That is why your calc is off. I do not believe I would take a feat that just gave me +1 on grapple checks. A +2 is another thing all together though . . . As for grappling huge things, I would imagine all non BW grapplers would retrain delay potion asap. It is just that cool and takes away one of the bear warrior's main edges.
solbergb 02-20-07, 12:23 AM	All the caster help a monk needs can be found on the DMG potion tables (and scroll tables for when there is time for outside help). Enlarge Person is your friend, and doesn't make most of your items meld or fall off. Even before the polymorph changes I was stronger enlarged than anything I could turn into except dire bear, which, with the latest faq ruling, couldn't mix a monk flurry with that form anyway. If you don't take grapple as a monk bonus feat. you need dex 15 to grapple in enlarged form though (because your dex drops two). As a side note, it occurs to me that the next mod I'm playing with Burke takes him to the bright desert, and with Master's Touch he could become proficient with the goofy scorpion claws if he wants to. So he'll probably pick up a pair, although it wouldn't be normal practice to have them equipped (from the drawing it doesn't look like your hands are really free when they're equipped, even though they strap on the forearm. I might be wrong at some tables and get extra benefits). So you know...in a situation where I really wanted to grapple as opposed to playing my more normal reach weapon AOO+flurry tricks, that puts me at 24/24/24/24/19 grapple check, or 29/29/29/29/24 if enlarged. It's not 40/35/30, but it isn't too shabby. Actually a point higher since if I don't die on the next adventure I'll level. And uh yeah..you caught me. Retraining delay potion is indeed in my plan. I took deflect arrows way back at level 1 and had a point of kn arcane then for roleplay reasons. I have a feeling that will be much more useful, especially since I still have a dozen CL1 enlarge potions in my haversack left over from when I got some on an AR once. From a roleplay standpoint it's also pretty cool. Burke has total mastery of his body and poisons aren't ingested anymore (ruins his drinking, but...). It seems reasonable he could also refuse to ingest a potion until he wanted to. (the 1 hour delay being the time it takes to pass uh..beyond where it can be absorbed) That said...many huge things will outgrapple you, and that's true even with enlarge tricks. Some of those things have a LOT of hit dice. At APL12-14 Burke usually doesn't even try the huge guys anymore, unless they're something he knows to have crappy BAB as a rule (golems, animated objects) or are weak for their size (Otyugh or Aboleth). He's learned that the hard way. Instead he just kills them. Grappling is for humanoid opponents, spellcasters, and size large opponents with zillions of natural attacks.
Ancillary 02-20-07, 01:55 AM	While you can use flurry to initiate a grapple, you cannot make further checks in the grapple using anything but your iteratives. I don't know what you do if you catch them in the middle, but Im sure splitting the difference is okay. It is same with two-weapon fighting, although if you are just attacking in the grapple you can use flurry which makes me jealous. I know what you mean about polymorph forms being no increase in strength. After next level the only thing in the MM that is stronger than me will be a Great Worm Gold Dragon. Of course a mod author can always template and advance a creature to silly heights no PC can dream of. There is nothing to stop any particular creature from being a Bear Warrior or Monk (or on the edge of Optimization, both), after all.
solbergb 02-20-07, 12:54 PM	Ancillary, there is table variation on Grapple/Flurries, but ever since the faq said "grapple away" the trend went from pretty much nobody allowing it to most tables allowing it. Although the letter of the ruling still leaves a little grey, it is pretty clear to most judges what the intent is from the FAQ ruling. I ran the character for years without grapple flurries, and am prepared to adjust tactics if a Judge nixes it, but I've had so much success with grapple flurries being allowed since the FAQ ruling that I don't even ask anymore - I just do it, and let the judge overrule if he's seen the FAQ entry and intreprets like you do. Flurrying is different from TWF - TWF uses another limb. Flurry does not, it is just a primary weapon attack based on BAB, similar to rapid shot. This is likely why it isn't forbidden in the FAQ or in the core rules. The rationale for forbidding it is not the TWF precedent, that pretty clearly doesn't apply (since you can ALSO TWF flurry...with flurry treated exactly the same as any other "on-hand" weapon). The basis for ruling against it is that "grapple is not a monk weapon", which was not 100% squished by the FAQ ruling.
KarmaInferno 02-21-07, 01:21 PM	As a side note, it occurs to me that the next mod I'm playing with Burke takes him to the bright desert, and with Master's Touch he could become proficient with the goofy scorpion claws if he wants to. So he'll probably pick up a pair, although it wouldn't be normal practice to have them equipped (from the drawing it doesn't look like your hands are really free when they're equipped, even though they strap on the forearm. I might be wrong at some tables and get extra benefits). Just a thought - would getting a Large set of Scorpion Claws with Monkey Grip add to the combo any? Monkey Grip is nice cos it's one of the few ways of getting around the "no multi-size change" rule, since it's from a non-magical source. You're right about the appearance. They look really goofy. Plus, how do you pick your nose with them strapped on? -karma
King Kashue 02-21-07, 02:32 PM	Just a thought - would getting a Large set of Scorpion Claws with Monkey Grip add to the combo any? Monkey Grip is nice cos it's one of the few ways of getting around the "no multi-size change" rule, since it's from a non-magical source. You're right about the appearance. They look really goofy. Plus, how do you pick your nose with them strapped on? -karma Small, Large, Huge, all still a +4 to grapple...You wouldn't be considered a larger creature than you are, so you wouldn't be able to grapple larger things. I don't see an advantage. I personally think Scorpion claws are BS...That much +grapple for a nonmagical exotic weapon is too much...
Oewyn 02-21-07, 03:29 PM	Barbarians make much better grapplers than monks, because a grappling monk loses all of his AC. A barbarian in mithril fullplate doesn't. Human Str 16 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 12 Cha 8 1 Barbarian Extra Rage, Clever Wrestling 2 Fighter Improved Unarmed Strike 3 Fighter Reckless Rage, Improved Grapple 4 Fighter 5 Fighter Combat Focus 6 Reaping Mauler Mobility, Elusive Target, retrain Improved Grapple to Dodge, Improved Grapple 7 Reaping Mauler 8 Reaping Mauler 9 Reaping Mauler Combat Vigor 10 Reaping Mauler 11 Fighter 12 Fighter Combat Defense, Earth's Embrace 13 Fighter 14 Fighter Combat Stability 15 Fighter Combat Awareness This requires you to use your level 4 stat bump on Wis. Make sure to get magical, cold iron armor spikes, and magical, silvered gauntlets (or vice versa.) It helps if one or both have Sacred or Holy on them as well. Carry an adamantine bludgeoning weapon. I believe combat stability only affects your chance to resist a grapple, not to start one. IE: defensive grapple checks only. I could be wrong in this though.
GrahamWills 02-21-07, 03:42 PM	A power attacking greatsword wielder is going to do more damage than a grappler every time. Not actually true. In fact it's only true against a low AC opponent. Against a defending dwarven defender in full plate with tower shield, the greatsword wielder will hit one time out of 20 on his two attacks (assume APL 6-8ish). If he does 40 hits/blow, he will do an average of 4 hits/round. The flurrying monk / fighter / grappler will touch successfully 90% of the time, and then grapple damage 3 times a round. With improved natural attack and a good STR bonus, thats 3 x 2d6 + 5 for 36 hits per round, with little chance of avoidance. Trust me, I've done it often ...
Daverius 02-21-07, 11:40 PM	I have a grappler, a Brb 1/ Fgt 2/ Rgr 2/ Occ Slr 2/ Br War 5/ WrShp 1. In bear form, unbuffed, I have a grapple check of +36. With warshaper and one more +1 BAB class I will end my career at + 40 grapple. Taking reaping mauler gives you another +1 to grapple but I do not believe it is worth it at all. My two levels of Occult Slayer give way more and it has better pre-reqs. Now that delay potion and Scorpion claws are options I may not have gone bear warrior. It is still the best unbuffed grappler, but levels 2 - 4 are some heavy slogging. As for grappler play theory, at lower levels you can grapple most things. At higher levels you can grapple most things size huge or less. At mid levels you grapple less things (Big Bear at 12 is the major stepping stone). My full attack in bear form is pretty brutal (I twf with unarmed strikes and then add a claw and bite) so just killing things is often a better option than grappling them. The problem is DR other than magic, but you can always attack in humanoid form if you need to (Wood Elf for me). A grappler maximizes strength so the ability to fall back and hit things is always there. Buy a good bow as well. If you are the only tank, it is often better not to grapple if there are several bruisers on the other side as you will effectively take yourself out of the fight and the rest of the party will get hit. Defensively illusion spells like blur and displacement are huge if you are a Barbarian grappler. Monks generally have a higher AC so don't need to worry as much. Make sure you get it written on an AR when you pin cool things (first large thing, first Huge thing, etc) Don't try and grapple things if you are at any disadvantage as just attacking is better for the party. Only grapple a dragon if you are feeling brave. Be the best grappler you can be, but try to be good other things at well. A bear warrior with a level of ranger makes an awesome tracker. I love my grappling character, he is my primary character and always is fun to play and contributes to the adventures. If we are comparing grappling modifiers I can count on having an unbuffed +8 if I need it. I have bracelets that lets me share personal spells with casters. So if I delay past my g/f she can take an immediate action and cast fearsome grapple on both of us for +8 to grapple. +44 is enough for most things, and I would still get a point of strength bonus from bulls strength for an even +45 at level 13, +49 at level 15. The best thing I have pinned is the Huge Dire Alligator animal companion of an arcane heirophant. He had a check of +38 but I got lucky with my rolls, it was fun to watch the DM's face. Can you explain your bonuses to your grapple check? Just a recap, so what is conisdered a decent workable grapple check per apl? For example: For Apl''s 4-8, would a decent grapple check be between 15 and 20? What about apl's 10-12, and so on. Thanks in advance.
Ancillary 02-22-07, 01:51 AM	Currently at level 13 I get my grapple boni from the following sources: 12 points of BAB 5 points from starting strength of 20 2 points from putting my level four bumps into strength, and a lucky fruit (which could have been a book instead) 4 points improved grapple 4 points size (large from big bear, a free action to enter) 8 points from big bear strength bonus 1 point from Ioun Stone my further growth will be more BAB and 2 points from Warshaper strength As for appropriate grapple scores, it is hard to gauge. Now that delay potion and scorpion claws are open, you can really stack the boni at low levels. There are basically two paths. The casual grappler, who is normally a monk, needs have only enough of a bonus to grapple other humanoids, mainly wizards and such. For this improved grapple and a decent strength are enough. The other path is to create a character where you want to be able to grapple everything you encounter, in which case you want your bonus as high as it will go, spending feats and such to increase it. I do not believe a middle path is advisable. It is often tough to gauge what would have a middling grapple check, for someone who made a middle of the roader. If you spend your combat round and "bounce" off an enemy you have wasted your round. The casual road hits obvious targets and the high tries to get anything (unless it is too big). A middle would essentially need to metagame heavily to get maximum return out of his investment, but even done well I believe it would make many misplays over the other two paths. I would say at APL 6 if you were a dedicated grappler your score should be at least 18, with the option to delay potion up to 23 if necessary. 250 a pop is not cheap, but doing it once a module is acceptable at that level since it improves your specialty so dramatically. As you level do your best to increase it. At high APL bear warrior used to be the only viable option, as it was generally in no-one's best interest to spend the time enlarging you. But now you can get 9 points from claws and delay potion and not waste any time. The 12 points from Bearwarrior is still the winner. The non BW could still be a barbarian with reckless rage to pick up the other 3 points but the BW pulls ahead again with warshaper. That being said I am not sure that the difference is significant enough to merit what you give up from taking 5 class levels of Bear Warrior vs the affects of 2 feats. Whatever way you go you definitely want to be in the 30s by level 12. A druid Nature's warrior is not too shabby either, but its main problem is you are not a grappler at all until 5 and not a good one until 8ish. So if you want to play a grappler that way is not really the way to go.
Daverius 02-22-07, 02:13 AM	Currently at level 13 I get my grapple boni from the following sources: 12 points of BAB 5 points from starting strength of 20 2 points from putting my level four bumps into strength, and a lucky fruit (which could have been a book instead) 4 points improved grapple 4 points size (large from big bear, a free action to enter) 8 points from big bear strength bonus 1 point from Ioun Stone my further growth will be more BAB and 2 points from Warshaper strength As for appropriate grapple scores, it is hard to gauge. Now that delay potion and scorpion claws are open, you can really stack the boni at low levels. There are basically two paths. The casual grappler, who is normally a monk, needs have only enough of a bonus to grapple other humanoids, mainly wizards and such. For this improved grapple and a decent strength are enough. The other path is to create a character where you want to be able to grapple everything you encounter, in which case you want your bonus as high as it will go, spending feats and such to increase it. I do not believe a middle path is advisable. It is often tough to gauge what would have a middling grapple check, for someone who made a middle of the roader. If you spend your combat round and "bounce" off an enemy you have wasted your round. The casual road hits obvious targets and the high tries to get anything (unless it is too big). A middle would essentially need to metagame heavily to get maximum return out of his investment, but even done well I believe it would make many misplays over the other two paths. I would say at APL 6 if you were a dedicated grappler your score should be at least 18, with the option to delay potion up to 23 if necessary. 250 a pop is not cheap, but doing it once a module is acceptable at that level since it improves your specialty so dramatically. As you level do your best to increase it. At high APL bear warrior used to be the only viable option, as it was generally in no-one's best interest to spend the time enlarging you. But now you can get 9 points from claws and delay potion and not waste any time. The 12 points from Bearwarrior is still the winner. The non BW could still be a barbarian with reckless rage to pick up the other 3 points but the BW pulls ahead again with warshaper. That being said I am not sure that the difference is significant enough to merit what you give up from taking 5 class levels of Bear Warrior vs the affects of 2 feats. Whatever way you go you definitely want to be in the 30s by level 12. A druid Nature's warrior is not too shabby either, but its main problem is you are not a grappler at all until 5 and not a good one until 8ish. So if you want to play a grappler that way is not really the way to go. Alright that makes sense. I have a half-orc fighter, and mainly for flare because I couldn't stand having a big tough fighter be useless without weapons and armor so I took improved unarmed...and decided that if I have improved unarmed might as well take improved grapple. Didn't want to take a level in monk because I wanted my ireatitive attacks by level 6. My primary weapon is a heavy flail for tripping and disarming. ANyways I plan to take levels in outcast champion, and finishing off with barbarian (no longer denying his heritage and lust for battle back story)... so by level 13 I can have a pre-enlarged grapple check of +27. base str: 24 (with a +4 str item) +7 desperate fury +1 rage +2 bab +13 feat+4 but grappling will not be my primary attack. I'll mainly use it to lock down casters when neccessary, or if a big monster grabs me...I'll spend my time trying to pin it...maybe the dice will get lucky and I hope I'll stand a decent chance. but I'll figure I'll be better than your normal two-handed weapon weilding fighter when it comes to getting chewed on by grappling beasties.
solbergb 02-22-07, 11:14 AM	For Apl''s 4-8, would a decent grapple check be between 15 and 20? What about apl's 10-12, and so on. Thanks in advance. Here is my experience, and note that I was unable to flurry/grapple till level 11 due to a difference in interpretations due to the lack of a FAQ entry covering the topic. So I think this is a fair cop for non-monk grapplers too. If you are better than this, you are a GOOD grappler. If you are worse, you should be picking on easy targets. APL2: +8-+9 gave me a pretty good shot of grappling anything, including stuff bigger than myself. I didn't always win the check, but when I did it ended the combat or severely crippled the opposition. APL4: +10-+11 was ok. +12-13 was better ("suregrip" ointment at the time gave a +2). The dangerous size large monsters like trolls had about +14 grapple checks. APL6: +11 was inadequate except vs medium opponents. +13 helped but I was still on the wrong end often enough that I started carrying 250gp potions of enlarge person. +18 worked quite well, which is what I had at level 6 with enlarge. In this time period grapples were treated as an attack roll due to faq entries that implied this. This ruling was reversed when Andy Collins came in, so I got by with +13 unbuffed largely because things like bless, prayer, recitation kicked me into the +15-18 range. APL8: This is kind of where I hit my current model, where I usually don't grapple things larger than myself (at medium or large size) unless I'm pretty sure they are poor grapplers. I was +17 unbuffed, +22 with enlarge. +22 is a decent range for a lot of APL8 monsters. APL10: +18/+23, not that different from APL8 One reason for this is the mix of opponents didn't include a single big melee monster nearly as often - they tended to be minions, with spellcasters and outsiders more frequent. APL12: +20/+25. At this level I'd say you need either +25 unbuffed(with two primary attacks), or you need 4 primary attacks at +20 like I have to be a decent grappler. More is better. APL14: +30 is probably a good target. Monsters scale grapple at +8 when they change size (compared to +5 for you with enlarge person) and they scale at +3/CR (or +6 for an APL jump). So what really kind of happens is that you start out ahead of the game in APL2-4, as the +4 from imp grapple, high starting str etc and +5 from enlarge really are large compared to a typical melee enemy. Lets take a typical melee enemy and scale it up to illustrate this. APL2: Half-Orc Barbarian3, CR3, Grapple +8 APL4: Troll, CR5, Grapple +14 APL6: Hill Giant, CR7, grapple +20 APL8: Frost giant, CR9, grapple +23 APL10: Cloud Giant, CR11, grapple +32 APL12: Storm Giant, CR13, Grapple+36 + free movement It's even sicker with advancement rules, or animals designed to grapple APL2: black bear, CR2 grapple+6 APL4: Brown bear, CR4, grapple+16 APL6: Dire Bear, CR7, Grapple+23 APL8: Adv Dire Bear 16hd, CR8, grapple +27 APL10: Adv Dire Bear, 20hd,huge,CR10 grapple +38 APL12: Adv Dire Bear, 28hd, huge, CR12 grapple +45 APL14: Adv Dire Bear, 36hd, huge, CR14 grapple +52 The good news is, lots of dangerous monsters are a tier behind those listed in the first list. For the second list, you need close quarters combat to stay out of the grapple after L6 or so, or you need something like King Kashue's build to hope for a 1/3 chance per attempt of beating the guy and pinning it (giving reasonable odds of success in a full attack) APL2: Imp, CR2, Grapple -5 APL4: Beard Devil, CR5, Grapple +8 APL6: Chain Devil, CR6 Grapple +10 APL8: Erynes, CR8, grapple +14 APL10: Barb Devil CR11, Grapple +22 APL12: Ice Devil, CR13, Grapple +24 APL14: Horn Devil, CR16, Grapple +29 Now many of these can get out of a grapple if they can concentrate on teleporting, but you just took away a very dangerous action set. Last thing....here's a typical enemy barbarian opponent with NPC equipment, for scaling of medium opponents, built on elite array, half-orc. This guy is generally just a touch behind "decent". Most humanoid opponents will be this level or lower. APL2: grapple +6 APL4: grapple +9 APL6: grapple +12 APL8: grapple +14 APL10: grapple +17 APL12: grapple +20 APL14: grapple +23
King Kashue 02-22-07, 03:12 PM	APL2: Imp, CR2, Grapple -5 APL4: Beard Devil, CR5, Grapple +8 APL6: Chain Devil, CR6 Grapple +10 APL8: Erynes, CR8, grapple +14 APL10: Barb Devil CR11, Grapple +22 APL12: Ice Devil, CR13, Grapple +24 APL14: Horn Devil, CR16, Grapple +29 Now many of these can get out of a grapple if they can concentrate on teleporting, but you just took away a very dangerous action set. And since most of those guys have 15 or more ranks in concentration, they can make it pretty easily (I found that out in game :() But yeah, basically, anything advanced gets wonky (because the advancement rules are wonky) and Giants are strong compared to stuff their size. You either need to metagame it out of what you know, or take your lumps roleplaying it out (I suggest the latter, it's more true to the game, and when you do beat something you shouldn't have, it feels good :D)
solbergb 02-22-07, 04:15 PM	Yeh...Burke tries if he thinks it will be useful. Sometimes essential (like grappling and pinning an Annis Hag at APL6 that was heading the party into a TPK). He's learned the hard way that some things aren't so good to grapple. If your goal grappling is to take away an enemy's offensive actions, having the fiend use his precious action to teleport out of your grasp means you WON that round. I don't let it bother me. Although the last time I grappled an Erynes, I should have waited till she fired her "shot on run" bow attack, so she would have lost an entire round (and crashed to the ground to get butchered by the fighters) before she could teleport. I grabbed her before she shot, so she got away that very round. Grrr. Note that the concentration check for improved teleport on a demon is 27 when grappled. It isn't a slam dunk even when they have 15+ concentration skill.
King Kashue 02-22-07, 04:45 PM	Note that the concentration check for improved teleport on a demon is 27 when grappled. It isn't a slam dunk even when they have 15+ concentration skill. The 15 is on wussy beasties though, like Erinyes (actually a 17 for them)...It goes up quickly from there, a decent rule of thumb is CR+10 or so in concentration. But, as you say, still an effective tactic depending on your goals.
jstorrie 02-22-07, 07:56 PM	I believe combat stability only affects your chance to resist a grapple, not to start one. IE: defensive grapple checks only. I could be wrong in this though. No, you are correct. It's still a nice feat to have for when you don't want to be grappled, or for when someone tries to trip or otherwise shenaniganize you.