Greyhawk character: Daring Outlaw->Trapsmith [Archive] - Wizards Community

Greyhawk character: Daring Outlaw->Trapsmith [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
the_redbeard
08-19-07, 08:19 PM Hi, just joining LG at its demise :weep: but I'm going all out for the core modules, starting at PAX next weekend.

I thinking a rogue/swashbuckler using the Daring Outlaw feat and Penetrating Strike rogue class feature (open for Greyhawk characters). For combat (after I get weapon finesse at 2nd level) I'd use two kukris and when BAB permits Improved Critical and Telling Blow for useful damage. I think I could strap a buckler on to use on rounds when I don't get a full attack.

Trapsmith is also open for Greyhawk characters, and really easy to qualify for. The only skill not already part of a daring outlaw build is craft trap. I'd already have a decent intelligence score for the trapsmith spellcasting. Practiced Spellcaster would actually be a decent feat to increase duration of spells like Haste. Trapsmith does delay Improved Critical from 9th level to 12th. That kinda hurts.

Unseen Seer would also be an easy PrC to qualify for and advances spellcasting, sneak attack and will save. If I have access, the 2nd level Unseen Seer Advanced Learning could be used for the ranger spell Hunters Eye. Or I could delay that level for another level of trapsmith, and another level of Swashbuckler wouldn't hurt either.

I'd have to be careful not to neglect BAB and hit points.

So something like this:
Grey Elf (arg, already neglecting hit points!)
str: 14-2=12
dx: 14+2=16
cn: 14-2=12
Int: 14+2=16
Ws:10
ch:10 (bump down? I hate low charisma characters and it seems social skills are useful in LG. I'll have the skillpoints.)

at 11th level: Rogue3/Swash4/Trapsmith2/UnseenSeer2

Lvl Classes Bab Sneak Feats
1 Rog1 0 1 Lvl: Two Weapon Fighting
2 Rog1/Swash1 1 1 Swash: Weapon Finesse
3 Rog2/Swash1 2 1 Rog: Evasion, Lvl: Telling Blow
4 Rog3/Swash1 3 2 Rog: Penetrating Strike
5 Rog3/Swash2 4 2 Swash: Grace
6 Rog3/Swash3 5 3 Swash: Insightful Strike, dodge LVL: Telling Blow
7 Rog3/Swash4 6 4 ? (maybe Rog4 instead:uncanny dodge, also skills)
8 Rog3/Swash4/Trap1 6 4 Spells:arcane sight, haste. traps
9 Rog3/Swash4/Trap2 7 4 Spell: Clairaudience Lvl: feat?
10 Rog3/Swash4/Trp2/Unsr1 7 5 Spells
11 Rog3/Swash4/Trp2/Unsr2 8 5 Advanced Learning: hunters eye
12 ? lvl: improved critical

Assuming the character gains these levels before the lights go out, is this a viable build for the Greyhawk modules?
Too low hitpoints?
Should I delay trapsmith to get improved critical by 9th?
If I use the build above, any suggestions for the 9th level feat? Practiced Spellcaster or Improved Two Weapon?

thanks much. Long Live Greyhawk.

Edit: Although the questions above are for high level decisions, I'm most interested in opinions on choices I have to make now. Are the stats ok, etc. Would I be too gimped starting out?
If I decide against trapsmith I'd have to retrain however many of the 8 ranks of craft traps, no biggie.
Banor
08-19-07, 09:59 PM I personnaly don't like Grey Elf for Rogues types. Low strength and melee character aren't a good choice imo. Even with penetrating strike remember that you still have to do damage to enemies with DR in order to apply Sneak attack. With a Str of 12 you might have some problem getting trough DR 5 and DR 10 might be out right impossible. If you go this route, make sure that you got a lot of different weapon to bypass DR.

Hunter Eye isnt an open spell I think you might have to find out a replacement. Also, if you don't have Pratictised Spellcaster for your Trapsmith casting I wouldnt focus too much on it esp with USS CL hit
JamesMaissen
08-19-07, 11:31 PM So something like this:
Grey Elf (arg, already neglecting hit points!)
str: 14-2=12
dx: 14+2=16
cn: 14-2=12
Int: 14+2=16
Ws:10
ch:10 (bump down? I hate low charisma characters and it seems social skills are useful in LG. I'll have the skillpoints.)

at 11th level: Rogue3/Swash4/Trapsmith2/UnseenSeer2

I'd ditch the 10 WIS and CHA in favor of buying one of the 14s up to a 16.. with preference to DEX, INT or CON. Seeing as you are likely to be a melee person the CON is a decent choice.

Also why Swash4 over Rogue4? Uncanny Dodge is VERY nice.. also you loose out on 4 skill points (and choices) this way. The 3hp difference is nice, but if hps are the concern.. bump the CON and it will give you far more that way.

-James
the_redbeard
08-20-07, 12:49 AM Damage and Overcoming DR - Int vs Str:
My reasoning was that with Insightful Strike, moving points from Str to Int is a wash damage wise. But you're right: it only applies to creatures I can sneak attack. So constructs and undead with DR would be tough. How often do you find adamantium kukris? Answer: Not often enough I'd gather.

WIS and CHA:
As a DM in homebrew, I punish people that drop them down to 8. I've got nuthin' for a will save already, but I do have the skillpoints to overcome deficiencies in spot, listen, bluff or diplomacy.
Maybe I'll buy a bunch of Protection from Evul scrolls and ask the casters to protect me from being charmed, suggested or otherwise f'd with. I'd still be a 'fraidy cat though.

Practiced Spellcaster: oh yeah, I'll need four ranks of spellcraft. Worry about that at level 7 I suppose.

Another feat would be nice.

Rogue 4 vs Swash 4: rogue 4 sold to the human daring outlaw from Greyhawk.

OK: so a human Daring Outlaw:

Str: 14
DX: 16
CN: 14
IN: 14
WS: 8
CH: 8
Same number of skillpoints. Same amount of damage, but 1 more point towards overcoming DR. More hitpoints.
Slightly more clueless and awkward: not a big problem?

My extra first level feat: Improved Initiative better than Telling blow, yes?
There are a lot of two-weapon feats I'd love to apply it to but none I'd meet the pre-reqs for.
Infinitive
08-20-07, 09:13 AM Well, Red, there's a counterpoint to the argument that Insightful Strike won't add damage against certain enemies... You are taking Penetrating Strike, right? That enables SA damage against normally un-sneakable things. Might be a good way to make Insightful Strike work for you.
the_redbeard
09-05-07, 06:23 PM Ok, so I'm getting somewhere with this character, and will likely be level 3 by this weekend and level in between mods of a two-mod gameday. So I need to have level 3 planned.

I went human, st:14, dx 16, cn 14, int 14, wis 8, cha 8.

Progression like this:

Lvl Classes Bab Sneak Feats
1 Rog1 0 1 Lvl: Two Weapon Fighting, Human: Imp Init
2 Rog1/Swash1 1 1 Swash: Weapon Finesse
3 Rog2/Swash1 2 1 Rog: Evasion, Lvl: ?Telling Blow
4 Rog3/Swash1 3 2 Rog: Penetrating Strike
5 Rog3/Swash2 4 2 Swash: Grace
6 Rog3/Swash3 5 3 Swash: Insightful Strike, dodge LVL: Daring Outlaw
7 Rog4/Swash3 6 4 Rog:uncanny dodge

At the moment, I'm using a masterwork rapier in one hand and a kukri (soon to be MW) in the other.

I had conceived of this character going dual kukris and getting Improved Critical/Kukri. Combined with Telling Blow, I'd have two weapons critting on 15-20 and adding my sneak dice to every crit.

But at level 3, is Telling Blow a worthwhile feat? Should I instead get Weapon Focus, Kukri, and switch to 2 kukris? Getting the +1 to hit on both attacks is good, but d4 instead of d6 damage hurts some.
I could then retrain to Telling Blow later.

What is more effective?
I'm adept at tumbling and getting flank on the baddies for more sneaks, so I think getting the +1 to hit for now is helpful.
Evanta
09-06-07, 04:12 AM Ok, so I'm getting somewhere with this character, and will likely be level 3 by this weekend and level in between mods of a two-mod gameday. So I need to have level 3 planned.

I went human, st:14, dx 16, cn 14, int 14, wis 8, cha 8.

Progression like this:

Lvl Classes Bab Sneak Feats
1 Rog1 0 1 Lvl: Two Weapon Fighting, Human: Imp Init
2 Rog1/Swash1 1 1 Swash: Weapon Finesse
3 Rog2/Swash1 2 1 Rog: Evasion, Lvl: ?Telling Blow
4 Rog3/Swash1 3 2 Rog: Penetrating Strike
5 Rog3/Swash2 4 2 Swash: Grace
6 Rog3/Swash3 5 3 Swash: Insightful Strike, dodge LVL: Daring Outlaw
7 Rog4/Swash3 6 4 Rog:uncanny dodge

At the moment, I'm using a masterwork rapier in one hand and a kukri (soon to be MW) in the other.

I had conceived of this character going dual kukris and getting Improved Critical/Kukri. Combined with Telling Blow, I'd have two weapons critting on 15-20 and adding my sneak dice to every crit.

But at level 3, is Telling Blow a worthwhile feat? Should I instead get Weapon Focus, Kukri, and switch to 2 kukris? Getting the +1 to hit on both attacks is good, but d4 instead of d6 damage hurts some.
I could then retrain to Telling Blow later.

What is more effective?
I'm adept at tumbling and getting flank on the baddies for more sneaks, so I think getting the +1 to hit for now is helpful.

If you intend to go TWF, u need every +1 to hit you get. I would recommend dual kuris if that is the case. d6 to d4 is the difference of just 1 pt of dmg on average.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
the_redbeard 08-19-07, 08:19 PM	Hi, just joining LG at its demise :weep: but I'm going all out for the core modules, starting at PAX next weekend. I thinking a rogue/swashbuckler using the Daring Outlaw feat and Penetrating Strike rogue class feature (open for Greyhawk characters). For combat (after I get weapon finesse at 2nd level) I'd use two kukris and when BAB permits Improved Critical and Telling Blow for useful damage. I think I could strap a buckler on to use on rounds when I don't get a full attack. Trapsmith is also open for Greyhawk characters, and really easy to qualify for. The only skill not already part of a daring outlaw build is craft trap. I'd already have a decent intelligence score for the trapsmith spellcasting. Practiced Spellcaster would actually be a decent feat to increase duration of spells like Haste. Trapsmith does delay Improved Critical from 9th level to 12th. That kinda hurts. Unseen Seer would also be an easy PrC to qualify for and advances spellcasting, sneak attack and will save. If I have access, the 2nd level Unseen Seer Advanced Learning could be used for the ranger spell Hunters Eye. Or I could delay that level for another level of trapsmith, and another level of Swashbuckler wouldn't hurt either. I'd have to be careful not to neglect BAB and hit points. So something like this: Grey Elf (arg, already neglecting hit points!) str: 14-2=12 dx: 14+2=16 cn: 14-2=12 Int: 14+2=16 Ws:10 ch:10 (bump down? I hate low charisma characters and it seems social skills are useful in LG. I'll have the skillpoints.) at 11th level: Rogue3/Swash4/Trapsmith2/UnseenSeer2 Lvl Classes Bab Sneak Feats 1 Rog1 0 1 Lvl: Two Weapon Fighting 2 Rog1/Swash1 1 1 Swash: Weapon Finesse 3 Rog2/Swash1 2 1 Rog: Evasion, Lvl: Telling Blow 4 Rog3/Swash1 3 2 Rog: Penetrating Strike 5 Rog3/Swash2 4 2 Swash: Grace 6 Rog3/Swash3 5 3 Swash: Insightful Strike, dodge LVL: Telling Blow 7 Rog3/Swash4 6 4 ? (maybe Rog4 instead:uncanny dodge, also skills) 8 Rog3/Swash4/Trap1 6 4 Spells:arcane sight, haste. traps 9 Rog3/Swash4/Trap2 7 4 Spell: Clairaudience Lvl: feat? 10 Rog3/Swash4/Trp2/Unsr1 7 5 Spells 11 Rog3/Swash4/Trp2/Unsr2 8 5 Advanced Learning: hunters eye 12 ? lvl: improved critical Assuming the character gains these levels before the lights go out, is this a viable build for the Greyhawk modules? Too low hitpoints? Should I delay trapsmith to get improved critical by 9th? If I use the build above, any suggestions for the 9th level feat? Practiced Spellcaster or Improved Two Weapon? thanks much. Long Live Greyhawk. Edit: Although the questions above are for high level decisions, I'm most interested in opinions on choices I have to make now. Are the stats ok, etc. Would I be too gimped starting out? If I decide against trapsmith I'd have to retrain however many of the 8 ranks of craft traps, no biggie.
Banor 08-19-07, 09:59 PM	I personnaly don't like Grey Elf for Rogues types. Low strength and melee character aren't a good choice imo. Even with penetrating strike remember that you still have to do damage to enemies with DR in order to apply Sneak attack. With a Str of 12 you might have some problem getting trough DR 5 and DR 10 might be out right impossible. If you go this route, make sure that you got a lot of different weapon to bypass DR. Hunter Eye isnt an open spell I think you might have to find out a replacement. Also, if you don't have Pratictised Spellcaster for your Trapsmith casting I wouldnt focus too much on it esp with USS CL hit
JamesMaissen 08-19-07, 11:31 PM	So something like this: Grey Elf (arg, already neglecting hit points!) str: 14-2=12 dx: 14+2=16 cn: 14-2=12 Int: 14+2=16 Ws:10 ch:10 (bump down? I hate low charisma characters and it seems social skills are useful in LG. I'll have the skillpoints.) at 11th level: Rogue3/Swash4/Trapsmith2/UnseenSeer2 I'd ditch the 10 WIS and CHA in favor of buying one of the 14s up to a 16.. with preference to DEX, INT or CON. Seeing as you are likely to be a melee person the CON is a decent choice. Also why Swash4 over Rogue4? Uncanny Dodge is VERY nice.. also you loose out on 4 skill points (and choices) this way. The 3hp difference is nice, but if hps are the concern.. bump the CON and it will give you far more that way. -James
the_redbeard 08-20-07, 12:49 AM	Damage and Overcoming DR - Int vs Str: My reasoning was that with Insightful Strike, moving points from Str to Int is a wash damage wise. But you're right: it only applies to creatures I can sneak attack. So constructs and undead with DR would be tough. How often do you find adamantium kukris? Answer: Not often enough I'd gather. WIS and CHA: As a DM in homebrew, I punish people that drop them down to 8. I've got nuthin' for a will save already, but I do have the skillpoints to overcome deficiencies in spot, listen, bluff or diplomacy. Maybe I'll buy a bunch of Protection from Evul scrolls and ask the casters to protect me from being charmed, suggested or otherwise f'd with. I'd still be a 'fraidy cat though. Practiced Spellcaster: oh yeah, I'll need four ranks of spellcraft. Worry about that at level 7 I suppose. Another feat would be nice. Rogue 4 vs Swash 4: rogue 4 sold to the human daring outlaw from Greyhawk. OK: so a human Daring Outlaw: Str: 14 DX: 16 CN: 14 IN: 14 WS: 8 CH: 8 Same number of skillpoints. Same amount of damage, but 1 more point towards overcoming DR. More hitpoints. Slightly more clueless and awkward: not a big problem? My extra first level feat: Improved Initiative better than Telling blow, yes? There are a lot of two-weapon feats I'd love to apply it to but none I'd meet the pre-reqs for.
Infinitive 08-20-07, 09:13 AM	Well, Red, there's a counterpoint to the argument that Insightful Strike won't add damage against certain enemies... You are taking Penetrating Strike, right? That enables SA damage against normally un-sneakable things. Might be a good way to make Insightful Strike work for you.
the_redbeard 09-05-07, 06:23 PM	Ok, so I'm getting somewhere with this character, and will likely be level 3 by this weekend and level in between mods of a two-mod gameday. So I need to have level 3 planned. I went human, st:14, dx 16, cn 14, int 14, wis 8, cha 8. Progression like this: Lvl Classes Bab Sneak Feats 1 Rog1 0 1 Lvl: Two Weapon Fighting, Human: Imp Init 2 Rog1/Swash1 1 1 Swash: Weapon Finesse 3 Rog2/Swash1 2 1 Rog: Evasion, Lvl: ?Telling Blow 4 Rog3/Swash1 3 2 Rog: Penetrating Strike 5 Rog3/Swash2 4 2 Swash: Grace 6 Rog3/Swash3 5 3 Swash: Insightful Strike, dodge LVL: Daring Outlaw 7 Rog4/Swash3 6 4 Rog:uncanny dodge At the moment, I'm using a masterwork rapier in one hand and a kukri (soon to be MW) in the other. I had conceived of this character going dual kukris and getting Improved Critical/Kukri. Combined with Telling Blow, I'd have two weapons critting on 15-20 and adding my sneak dice to every crit. But at level 3, is Telling Blow a worthwhile feat? Should I instead get Weapon Focus, Kukri, and switch to 2 kukris? Getting the +1 to hit on both attacks is good, but d4 instead of d6 damage hurts some. I could then retrain to Telling Blow later. What is more effective? I'm adept at tumbling and getting flank on the baddies for more sneaks, so I think getting the +1 to hit for now is helpful.
Evanta 09-06-07, 04:12 AM	Ok, so I'm getting somewhere with this character, and will likely be level 3 by this weekend and level in between mods of a two-mod gameday. So I need to have level 3 planned. I went human, st:14, dx 16, cn 14, int 14, wis 8, cha 8. Progression like this: Lvl Classes Bab Sneak Feats 1 Rog1 0 1 Lvl: Two Weapon Fighting, Human: Imp Init 2 Rog1/Swash1 1 1 Swash: Weapon Finesse 3 Rog2/Swash1 2 1 Rog: Evasion, Lvl: ?Telling Blow 4 Rog3/Swash1 3 2 Rog: Penetrating Strike 5 Rog3/Swash2 4 2 Swash: Grace 6 Rog3/Swash3 5 3 Swash: Insightful Strike, dodge LVL: Daring Outlaw 7 Rog4/Swash3 6 4 Rog:uncanny dodge At the moment, I'm using a masterwork rapier in one hand and a kukri (soon to be MW) in the other. I had conceived of this character going dual kukris and getting Improved Critical/Kukri. Combined with Telling Blow, I'd have two weapons critting on 15-20 and adding my sneak dice to every crit. But at level 3, is Telling Blow a worthwhile feat? Should I instead get Weapon Focus, Kukri, and switch to 2 kukris? Getting the +1 to hit on both attacks is good, but d4 instead of d6 damage hurts some. I could then retrain to Telling Blow later. What is more effective? I'm adept at tumbling and getting flank on the baddies for more sneaks, so I think getting the +1 to hit for now is helpful. If you intend to go TWF, u need every +1 to hit you get. I would recommend dual kuris if that is the case. d6 to d4 is the difference of just 1 pt of dmg on average.