Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Alpha_Nerd 01-22-07, 11:05 PM	Edit: This character is no longer a Greyhawk Ruins character. I've decided to run him as a follower of the Eblongleam (The Theocracy of Dimre for you not up to date on the BK). Here ya go! Lawful Neutral Suel Human STR 14 DEX 10 CON 14 INT 14 WIS 8 CHA 15 1 Rogue: Alertness, Power Attack 2 Hexblade 3 Hexblade: Combat Expertise 4 Fighter: Close-Quarters Combat 16 CHA 5 Rogue 6 Vigilante: Practiced Spellcaster 7 Hexblade 8 Vigilante 17 CHA 9 Vigilante: Staggering Strike 10 Spellsword 11 Vigilante 12 Vigilante: Arcane Strike 18 CHA 13 Vigilante 14 Vigilante 15 Vigilante: Skill Focus: Sense Motive Spells Known: 1- Swift Invisibility, Critical Strike, Improvisation, Distort Speech 2- Bladeweave, Mirror Image, Whirling Blade, Alter Self 3- Haste, Invisibility Sphere, Displacement, Unluck 4- Freedom of Movement, Greater Invisibility, Shadow Conjuration, +12 BAB +7 Fort +10 Ref +11 Will The hope is to start with a buckler, and move to an animated shield when I can. The silly feat at level 12 is so I can become an Inquisitor for the Theocracy of Dimre, so don't rag on it. I'm still not sure about the level 15 feat, I was thinking of taking Practiced Spellcaster but I'm not sure how much that would help. This gives him 9 levels of Vigilante Casting, Mettle, Evasion, Arcane and Staggering Strike, the ability to either Power Attack or Expertise, depending on the roll he needs to fill. With Spellsword and Mithral Full Plate he has a 15% ACF, which I can live with, and good Face/Trapfinding. Any final thoughts before I start cranking out the skills?
jstorrie 01-23-07, 01:02 AM	Vigilante is 3/4, so you really need to avoid BAB hits. I'd strictly avoid Marshal. The multiclassing and MAD really ruin your ability to effectively Power Attack, too, so watch out. Diplomacy isn't on the Vigilante skill list, and you'd normally take it with a character of this type, so Well Traveled pretty much saves you three skill points per level after five - I think it's okay. Human (Rhennee) 1 Rogue Alertness, Well Traveled 2 Paladin 3 Paladin Power Attack 4 Paladin 5 Paladin 6 Vigilante Divine Might 7 Vigilante 8 Vigilante 9 Vigilante Arcane Strike 10 Vigilante 11 Vigilante 12 Vigilante Staggering Strike 13 Vigilante 14 Vigilante 15 Vigilante Leadership You wear Full Plate and stick to swinging. Use buffs and swift action spells in conjunction with Arcane Strike to do a moderately okay job of playing tank.
Alpha_Nerd 01-23-07, 10:18 AM	I'm not quite sure what Well Traveled does, but I didn't really plan on bumping diplomacy above 5 ranks. The other 4 talker skills (bluff, intim, sense motive, gather info) are what I'm most focused on.
jstorrie 01-23-07, 10:45 AM	Well Traveled, among other things, lets you use Knowledge: Local in place of Diplomacy - as long as you are inside the region you have Knowledge: Local points for.
Alpha_Nerd 01-23-07, 11:08 AM	That sounds like a neat idea for this character, but honestly I almost never use Diplomacy. I think I'm a compulsive liar. Anyways, I was thinking about swapping out Power Attack for Combat Expertise and letting my arcane strike and Divine Might scale my damage for me. If I take extra smiting, will it apply to both my smites like extra turning, or just one of them?
TallGuy 01-23-07, 01:03 PM	That sounds like a neat idea for this character, but honestly I almost never use Diplomacy. I think I'm a compulsive liar. Anyways, I was thinking about swapping out Power Attack for Combat Expertise and letting my arcane strike and Divine Might scale my damage for me. If I take extra smiting, will it apply to both my smites like extra turning, or just one of them? Being a compulsive liar doesn't really mesh with being a Paladin though. Kinda has a tendency to make you an ex-paladin. And yes, AFAIK extra smiting applies to both. Bas Vermeulen
Alpha_Nerd 01-23-07, 01:16 PM	Ok, some can call my a fanboy, but I'm building this character around the main character in the show Dexter. He might have to lie a bunch to cover his tracks, but he has a strict code that he can not break. If you've seen the show, you see how commited he is to his code, and even though he's a vigilante serial killer (don't worry about spoilers you figure it out in the first 5 minutes if the first episode [it's really good you should all watch it]), he's one of the most lawful chracters I've ever seen. As far as my smite question, if I have 1 Smite Evil per day from paladin, and 1 Smite Guilty per day from Vigilante, do I have a total of 4 smites, ranging from 3 evil + 1 guilty to 1 evil + 3 Guily, or do I have 6 smites, 3 from Evil and 3 from Guilty?
jstorrie 01-23-07, 04:40 PM	DMs are going to complain like crazy if your Paladin is a compulsive liar, given that lying is against the Paladin code of conduct given in the PHB (even though it's not, strictly, non-lawful or non-good in D&D terms.) Maybe you could mitigate that somehow by finding an appropriate deity who would be okay with his or her Paladins lying? You'll get table variation on your number of smites, but the consensus on Infinite Monkeys was that Extra Smiting gives you the bonus to each class you have smites in. If you wanted to be a real dink about it, you could go Paladin/Cleric/Pious Templar/Vigilante (but don't!)
TallGuy 01-23-07, 04:47 PM	Ok, some can call my a fanboy, but I'm building this character around the main character in the show Dexter. He might have to lie a bunch to cover his tracks, but he has a strict code that he can not break. If you've seen the show, you see how commited he is to his code, and even though he's a vigilante serial killer (don't worry about spoilers you figure it out in the first 5 minutes if the first episode [it's really good you should all watch it]), he's one of the most lawful chracters I've ever seen. I quite understand what you mean, but the code of conduct for the paladin explicitly says: A paladin must of lawful good alignment, and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin's code of conduct requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (no lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do notuse the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents. Then there's the Ex-Paladins alinea: A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities. Emphasis is mine, of course. If you want my opinion? Use a cleric of St. Cuthbert for this, with the destruction domain. Works against anyone, gets you the lawful bent, without the code of conduct. Costs you some BAB, but that smite will work wonders for that, and you can buff yourself if you switch some points towards wisdom. As far as my smite question, if I have 1 Smite Evil per day from paladin, and 1 Smite Guilty per day from Vigilante, do I have a total of 4 smites, ranging from 3 evil + 1 guilty to 1 evil + 3 Guily, or do I have 6 smites, 3 from Evil and 3 from Guilty? I'd say 6, 3 from Evil (or destruction), and 3 from guilty. Bas Vermeulen
Alpha_Nerd 01-23-07, 05:15 PM	Thanks for all the help guys, I've changed the character around. Let me know what you think.
Crazy Boro 01-23-07, 05:49 PM	You know you need to be able to cast 3rd level arcane spells for taking arcane strike, right? The earliest you could take it with vigilante is when you get the equivalent of 5 levels for casting with it. You won't get that till 11th level with your current build (and have the 16+ cha for a bonus spell). You will have to take the feat at 12th or 15th, not 6th like you have planned.
Alpha_Nerd 01-23-07, 05:51 PM	I must be looking at some bad information, I was under the impression Arcane Strike requires a BAB +4 and 1st level arcane spells.
Mommy was an Orc 01-23-07, 06:14 PM	This gives him 9 levels of Vigilante Casting, Mettle, Evasion, Arcane and Staggering Strike, the ability to either Power Attack or Expertise, depending on the roll he needs to fill. With Spellsword and Mithral Full Plate he has a 15% ACF, which I can live with, and good Face/Trapfinding. Any final thoughts before I start cranking out the skills? You don't qualify for Arcane Strike until you can cast 3rd level spells. i.e. minimum of 10th level, which means you get the feat at 12th. Okay, the question no one is asking - given that Vigilante is a badly edited, underpowered PrC that duplicates certain abilities of other classes, do you really want to do this? It requires Alertness to get into the PrC, but neither Listen nor Spot are class skills. It doesn't actually cast 33 3rd level spells per day. Remember, you actually have to witness a crime for your Smite the Guilty to work. I'd really try to take some variation of Rogue/Bard/Paladin instead - Rogue 1/Bard 7/Paladin 2/Sublime Chord 4/Spellsword 1. You can use the feat you didn't spend on Alertness for Devoted Performer.
Alpha_Nerd 01-23-07, 07:59 PM	I like Vigilante because it has 6+int skills per level, has disable, search, and charisma skills on it's class list, and has a spell list that is constantly updated with new material as it is based off the bard list. It's like a gish but more skill-monkey. It has good Reflex and Will, which with a 10 Dex and 8 Wis will help balance him out. The idea of charging a flat-footed bad guy, power attacking and arcane striking (although I guess that won't come till later :( ) and staggering him, only to cast a swift invisible after the charge to give myself a 50% concealment next round, or being able to throw up a mirror image before I get slammed by a cave troll or something similar sounds like something I'd enjoy. The speak with dead is neat, especially if the cleric doesn't prepare open slots, and the detect evil can be helpful. I won't be getting dimensional anchor until 15th, so I can't really look foward to that for a while. I mean, sure it requires alertness, which isn't that great of a feat, but doesn't it allow me to use that reroll a save player reward card? :)
Mommy was an Orc 01-23-07, 10:38 PM	I like Vigilante because it has 6+int skills per level, has disable, search, and charisma skills on it's class list, and has a spell list that is constantly updated with new material as it is based off the bard list. It's like a gish but more skill-monkey. It has good Reflex and Will, which with a 10 Dex and 8 Wis will help balance him out. It certainly seems to be one of those prestige classes that should be valuable. But the problem is that everything it gives you is a lot cheaper elsewhere. And you're glossing over one of the big problems with a Vigilante - your damage is primarily through your skill in melee combat. Yet your to-hit score is based on your 14 Strength for the most part - and you've lost 2 BAB by 6th level. As Vigilante doesn't really give you anything to make you hit better or harder, you're going to really struggle to do anything other than trapfinding/face. Yes, you have spells. But those spells aren't great at fixing the issues.
Golorious 01-25-07, 01:36 PM	Instead of Vigilante consider Grey Guard. It is a new prestige class from Complete Scoundrel. It sounds a little more in character to the Dexter guy to me. It is like a Paladin with a dark side but still remains lawful good they are more into corporal and capital punishment of law breakers. They are willing to go to the extreme for their alignment and bend the rules when deceiving evil people. I would check it out. It has full BAB and can turn its lay on hands into damage effects (sicken etc..)... They get some smites, then the ability to smite chaos and eventually your smites work against everyone regardless of alignment. Also it can increase an existing caster progression (which I don't believe needs to be divine). I'm not sure if it will be approved for the LGCS but after looking at complete scoundrel it is one of the easiest prc's to approve without adding a bunch of rule sets. So I think it is likely to be approved and fits thematically with your concept.