Greyhawk Ruins Swashbuckler [Archive] - Wizards Community

Greyhawk Ruins Swashbuckler [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
wangka
07-25-07, 06:43 PM Although I had planned to go with another character, I was mulling the feasibility of a rogue/swashbuckler for Greyhawk Ruins. Social skills (bluff, diplomacy, sense motive), trap skills (disable device, search), tumble and moderate melee potential.

I guess it would look something like:

Race:
1. Halfling (St 12, Dx 16, Cn 14, In 14, Ws 10, Ch 10)
favored class rogue, decent racial abilities including needed save bonus, but small and slower
2. High Elf (St 14, Dx 16, Cn 12, In 14, Ws 10, Ch 10)
more damage, more fragile, need to balance class levels (maybe grey elf?)
3. Human (St 14, Dx 15, Cn 14, In 14, Ws 8, Ch 10)
i don't like spending that extra 2 points for a Dx 15, but feel like two weapon fighting is helpful in a sneak attack build.
4. Wood Elf (St 16, Dx 16, Cn 12, In 12, Ws 10, Ch 10)
best in combat, fragile, but doesn't seem at all wood elf-like, reduced skills

Class:
At least 3 levels or rogue and 3 levels of swashbuckler. Alternate class abilities penetrating strike and maybe distracting attack. (Can I get quick fingers if I've already "turned in" the requisite ability? My guess is no.)

Feats:
Dashing Outlaw at level 6. Probably two weapon fighting and deadly defense. Maybe two weapon defense, weapon focus (rapier), improved weapon familiarity (if elf)

PrC:
Maybe pious templar of olidammara? or kelanen?

Weaknesses:
Poor hp. Crap for Will saves. Having to check for traps ...

I'm thinking halfing despite the reduced weapon size and slow movement.
1. Rogue 1; SA+1d6, feat: deadly defense
2. Swashbuckler 1; weapon finesse
3. Rogue 2; evasion, feat: two weapon fighting
4. Rogue 3; SA+2d6; Dex 17
5. Swashbuckler 2; grace+1
6. Swashbuckler 3; insightful strike; feat: dashing outlaw, SA +3d6 and dodge bonus +1
7. Rogue 4; SA+4d6

Is there a way to make this guy workable? Any better feat choices or PrC suggestions?

Thanks!
clannagh
07-25-07, 07:26 PM that build sorta says "spring attack" to me, maybe even dervish eventually
_metz_
07-25-07, 08:18 PM Actually that build doesn't look like a spring attacker at all. A spring attacker would be using an Elven Court blade and Two handed Power attacking. TWF is a waste otherwise.

This is what I have found reasonably effective.

1. You can never get enough sneak attack. If you want to damage produce, TWF is the winner, if you are going for a sneak attack method of damage.

2. Con 14 is amazing. A con 12 rogue will get smacked, this is because you only have low Hit die and fort saves. Even with Swashbuckler to offset that.

3. Grey Elves Make GOOD Swashbucklers.

Finally, If you do go the Halfling route, I would suggest dumping Wis or Cha and increasing Dex to 17 to take into account all the stat bumps.

Finally, and most importantly, Weapon Focus Rapier is a WASTE. You can't fight effectively with one in both hands. Thats a contradictory feat.

Try the Cutlass form Stormwrack. It has a 19-20 crit range, d6 damage, is Slashing, and has a +2 bonus on being disarmed. It also is a light weapon and can be wielded in both hands. That way you get your +1 to hit on ALL attacks. (Its a short sword but better)

And its Daring, not Dashing outlaw :P
Donald_Cannith
07-25-07, 08:35 PM i would stay away from Prcs at al lcosts with this build. YOu do not want to waste Daring outlaw.
jstorrie
07-25-07, 08:47 PM I post this build often, but it bears repeating:

Human
Str 14 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 8
1 Rogue: Power Attack, Telling Blow
2 Fighter: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Elven Courtblade
3 Swashbuckler: Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus: Greatsword
4 Rogue: (Evasion)
5 Swashbuckler
6 Rogue: Daring Outlaw
7 Fighter: Power Critical
8 Fighter
9 Fighter: Weapon Specialization (Greatsword), Melee Weapon Mastery
10 Swashbuckler (Insightful Strike)
11 Rogue (Uncanny Dodge)
12 Swashbuckler: Improved Critical (swap for Staggering Strike if you get Keen access)
13 Swashbuckler
14 Swashbuckler
15 Swashbuckler: Slashing Flurry

• Humans make the best Daring Outlaws because the build is feat, skill and stat intensive.
• Weapon Spec/Mastery > 1.5d6 sneak attack
• Power Attack > TWF because you are too feat starved to go up the whole TWF chain
• The holy trifecta here is actually Uncanny Dodge/Weapon Spec/Insightful Strike. Everything else is gravy–Sneak Attack is nice, but you can't count on it, even with Telling Blow. That being said, having Telling Blow on a Power Attacker can give you some crazy high criticals. You may be able to trade for the alternate Rogue class feature–could be worth dropping Uncanny Dodge in order to up your Power Attack damage.
wangka
07-25-07, 10:39 PM Thanks for the good feedback!

I was also playing around with a dervish idea, but more swift hunter/ranger/scout-ish. The benefit of the penetrating strike feature requires flanking I think, so it'd be rougher to dervish dance and take advantage of that.

Aside from letting swashbuckler levels grant sneak attack damage, Daring Outlaw only helps a good save and give a slight dodge bonus, so I'd consider a good PrC with good SA progression if available.

Finally, and most importantly, Weapon Focus Rapier is a WASTE. You can't fight effectively with one in both hands. Thats a contradictory feat.

Try the Cutlass form Stormwrack. It has a 19-20 crit range, d6 damage, is Slashing, and has a +2 bonus on being disarmed. It also is a light weapon and can be wielded in both hands. That way you get your +1 to hit on ALL attacks. (Its a short sword but better)
Good point on the rapier - for some reason I thought insightful strike needed a piercing weapon to work - the cutlass is a nice suggestion. I'll try a grey elf build with improved weapon familiarity and weapon focus (rapier) for an elven lightblade and elven thinblade and see how that seems to flesh out.

And its Daring, not Dashing outlaw :P
The memory of the aging...

I post this build often, but it bears repeating:
• Humans make the best Daring Outlaws because the build is feat, skill and stat intensive.
• Weapon Spec/Mastery > 1.5d6 sneak attack
• Power Attack > TWF because you are too feat starved to go up the whole TWF chain

That's a very interesting concept as well; do you feel like the loss of the extra attack and SA damage is offset by the extra damage of the two handed power attack? And it has the advantage of doing more damage in the situation of move action - standard attack. Any worries with the will save? And I wonder if a spiked chain would work (but I guess not nearly as synergistic with the telling blow and power critical, but could combat expertise/improved trip/combat reflexes)

Levels of fighter would drastically improve the combat potential, but impair my skillz. Tough call. I'm also not sure that the penetrating attack alt. ability of a rogue meshes with the telling blow/power critical.

How about:

1. Grey Elf
St 12, Dx 16, Cn 12, In 16, Ws 10, Ch 10
1 Rogue 1 two weapon fighting
2 Swashbuckler 1 weapon finesse
3 Fighter 1 imp. weapon familiarity, weapon focus (rapier)
4 Rogue 2 +1 Dex 17
thinblade +5 melee 1d8+1 +1d6 SA (avg 9)
lightblade +5 melee 1d6 +1d6 SA (avg 7)
5 Swashbuckler 2
6 Fighter 2 power critical, telling blow
7 Rogue 3 (retrain power critical for Daring Outlaw)
8 Swashbuckler 3 +1 Dex 18, insightful strike
thinblade +10/+5 melee 1d8+4 +3d6 SA (avg 19 x2)
lightblade +10 melee 1d6+3 +3d6 SA (avg 17)
9 Fighter 3 power critical
10 Fighter 4 weapon specialization (rapier);
11 Rogue 4
12 Swashbuckler 4 melee weapon mastery (piercing)
thinblade +16/+11/+6 melee 1d8+8 +4d6 SA (avg 26.5 x3)
lightblade +16 melee 1d6+7 +4d6 SA (avg 24.5)

Annoying to keep trading in and out of a feat. Maybe deadly defense/two weapon defense instead of telling bow/power critical.

2. Halfling
St 12, Dx 16, Cn 14, In 14, Ws 10, Ch 10
1 Rogue 1 two weapon fighting
2 Swashbuckler 1 weapon finesse
3 Fighter 1 weapon focus (cutlass); telling blow
4 Rogue 2 +1 Dex 17
cutlass +6 melee 1d4+1 +1d6 SA (avg 7)
cutlass +6 melee 1d4 +1d6 SA (avg 6)
5 Swashbuckler 2
6 Rogue 3 daring outlaw
7 Fighter 2 power critical
8 Swashbuckler 3 +1 Dex 18, insightful strike
cutlass +11/+6 melee 1d4+3 +3d6 SA (avg 16 x2)
cutlass +11 melee 1d4+2 +3d6 SA (avg 15)
9 Fighter 3 improved critical
10 Fighter 4 weapon specialization (cutlass)
11 Rogue 4
12 Swashbuckler 4 melee weapon mastery (slasing)
cutlass +17/+12/+7 melee 1d4+7 +4d6 SA (avg 23.5 x2)
cutlass +17 melee 1d4+6 +4d6 SA (avg 22.5)

Smaller crit range and I have to roll a d4.

3. Human (modified courtblade build)
St 14, Dx 14, Cn 14, In 14, Ws 10, Ch 10
1 Rogue 1 Power Attack, Telling Blow
2 Fighter 1 Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Elven Courtblade
3 Swashbuckler 1 Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus: Greatsword
4 Rogue 2 +1 St 15
greatsword +5 melee 1d10+5 +1d6 SA (avg 14 with power attack 1) comparable damage, plus only a standard action
5 Swashbuckler 2
6 Rogue 3 Daring Outlaw
7 Fighter 2 Power Critical
8 Fighter 3 +1 St 16
greatsword +10/+5 melee 1d10+6 +3d6 SA (avg 22 x2 with power attack 1)
9 Fighter 4 Weapon Specialization (Greatsword), Melee Weapon Mastery
10 Swashbuckler 3 insightful strike
11 Rogue 4
12 Swashbuckler 4 improved critical
greatsword +16/+11/+6 melee 1d10+10 +4d6 SA (avg 29.5 x3 with power attack 1)
Huh.... damage potential does seem to *slightly* less at a similar attack range, but would take greater advantage of strength boosts and better in mobile fights...

Thanks for the ideas, I'll play around with this more...
jstorrie
07-25-07, 11:39 PM I'm not sure why you would boost Cha for a Daring Outlaw. You won't be running Diplomacy or Intimidate. As far as skills go, though, Fighter 4 doesn't wreck you–you're a human with 14 Int. You're okay.

Boosting Str instead of Dex will cause you trouble. You're skilled up as a highly mobile infantry type, so should be somersaulting around in a mithril chain shirt; 16 Dex and level bumps will be needed to top out your AC. You can still wear a Belt of Giant Strength, anyway, so I wouldn't sweat having Strength a little lower and Dex a little higher–Dex goes into Power Attack anyway, and high Init is good for a sneak-attacker.
Demoyn
07-26-07, 09:18 AM Now if I can just get the guy below me to edit his quote, maybe some people won't realize how much of an rtard I am!
Vanadium
07-26-07, 12:56 PM I just wanted to point out, in case the OP didn't catch it, that the fighter/swashbuckler feat will be free at 12th level because he'll immediately get two more free feats.

I'm not sure what you mean here.

If you are referring to Daring Warrior, that just lets Swashbuckler levels stack with Fighter levels for the purposes of things like Weapon Specialization, which require X levels of Fighter to take.

It doesn't give you free feats.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
wangka 07-25-07, 06:43 PM	Although I had planned to go with another character, I was mulling the feasibility of a rogue/swashbuckler for Greyhawk Ruins. Social skills (bluff, diplomacy, sense motive), trap skills (disable device, search), tumble and moderate melee potential. I guess it would look something like: Race: 1. Halfling (St 12, Dx 16, Cn 14, In 14, Ws 10, Ch 10) favored class rogue, decent racial abilities including needed save bonus, but small and slower 2. High Elf (St 14, Dx 16, Cn 12, In 14, Ws 10, Ch 10) more damage, more fragile, need to balance class levels (maybe grey elf?) 3. Human (St 14, Dx 15, Cn 14, In 14, Ws 8, Ch 10) i don't like spending that extra 2 points for a Dx 15, but feel like two weapon fighting is helpful in a sneak attack build. 4. Wood Elf (St 16, Dx 16, Cn 12, In 12, Ws 10, Ch 10) best in combat, fragile, but doesn't seem at all wood elf-like, reduced skills Class: At least 3 levels or rogue and 3 levels of swashbuckler. Alternate class abilities penetrating strike and maybe distracting attack. (Can I get quick fingers if I've already "turned in" the requisite ability? My guess is no.) Feats: Dashing Outlaw at level 6. Probably two weapon fighting and deadly defense. Maybe two weapon defense, weapon focus (rapier), improved weapon familiarity (if elf) PrC: Maybe pious templar of olidammara? or kelanen? Weaknesses: Poor hp. Crap for Will saves. Having to check for traps ... I'm thinking halfing despite the reduced weapon size and slow movement. 1. Rogue 1; SA+1d6, feat: deadly defense 2. Swashbuckler 1; weapon finesse 3. Rogue 2; evasion, feat: two weapon fighting 4. Rogue 3; SA+2d6; Dex 17 5. Swashbuckler 2; grace+1 6. Swashbuckler 3; insightful strike; feat: dashing outlaw, SA +3d6 and dodge bonus +1 7. Rogue 4; SA+4d6 Is there a way to make this guy workable? Any better feat choices or PrC suggestions? Thanks!
clannagh 07-25-07, 07:26 PM	that build sorta says "spring attack" to me, maybe even dervish eventually
_metz_ 07-25-07, 08:18 PM	Actually that build doesn't look like a spring attacker at all. A spring attacker would be using an Elven Court blade and Two handed Power attacking. TWF is a waste otherwise. This is what I have found reasonably effective. 1. You can never get enough sneak attack. If you want to damage produce, TWF is the winner, if you are going for a sneak attack method of damage. 2. Con 14 is amazing. A con 12 rogue will get smacked, this is because you only have low Hit die and fort saves. Even with Swashbuckler to offset that. 3. Grey Elves Make GOOD Swashbucklers. Finally, If you do go the Halfling route, I would suggest dumping Wis or Cha and increasing Dex to 17 to take into account all the stat bumps. Finally, and most importantly, Weapon Focus Rapier is a WASTE. You can't fight effectively with one in both hands. Thats a contradictory feat. Try the Cutlass form Stormwrack. It has a 19-20 crit range, d6 damage, is Slashing, and has a +2 bonus on being disarmed. It also is a light weapon and can be wielded in both hands. That way you get your +1 to hit on ALL attacks. (Its a short sword but better) And its Daring, not Dashing outlaw :P
Donald_Cannith 07-25-07, 08:35 PM	i would stay away from Prcs at al lcosts with this build. YOu do not want to waste Daring outlaw.
jstorrie 07-25-07, 08:47 PM	I post this build often, but it bears repeating: Human Str 14 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 8 1 Rogue: Power Attack, Telling Blow 2 Fighter: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Elven Courtblade 3 Swashbuckler: Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus: Greatsword 4 Rogue: (Evasion) 5 Swashbuckler 6 Rogue: Daring Outlaw 7 Fighter: Power Critical 8 Fighter 9 Fighter: Weapon Specialization (Greatsword), Melee Weapon Mastery 10 Swashbuckler (Insightful Strike) 11 Rogue (Uncanny Dodge) 12 Swashbuckler: Improved Critical (swap for Staggering Strike if you get Keen access) 13 Swashbuckler 14 Swashbuckler 15 Swashbuckler: Slashing Flurry • Humans make the best Daring Outlaws because the build is feat, skill and stat intensive. • Weapon Spec/Mastery > 1.5d6 sneak attack • Power Attack > TWF because you are too feat starved to go up the whole TWF chain • The holy trifecta here is actually Uncanny Dodge/Weapon Spec/Insightful Strike. Everything else is gravy–Sneak Attack is nice, but you can't count on it, even with Telling Blow. That being said, having Telling Blow on a Power Attacker can give you some crazy high criticals. You may be able to trade for the alternate Rogue class feature–could be worth dropping Uncanny Dodge in order to up your Power Attack damage.
wangka 07-25-07, 10:39 PM	Thanks for the good feedback! I was also playing around with a dervish idea, but more swift hunter/ranger/scout-ish. The benefit of the penetrating strike feature requires flanking I think, so it'd be rougher to dervish dance and take advantage of that. Aside from letting swashbuckler levels grant sneak attack damage, Daring Outlaw only helps a good save and give a slight dodge bonus, so I'd consider a good PrC with good SA progression if available. Finally, and most importantly, Weapon Focus Rapier is a WASTE. You can't fight effectively with one in both hands. Thats a contradictory feat. Try the Cutlass form Stormwrack. It has a 19-20 crit range, d6 damage, is Slashing, and has a +2 bonus on being disarmed. It also is a light weapon and can be wielded in both hands. That way you get your +1 to hit on ALL attacks. (Its a short sword but better) Good point on the rapier - for some reason I thought insightful strike needed a piercing weapon to work - the cutlass is a nice suggestion. I'll try a grey elf build with improved weapon familiarity and weapon focus (rapier) for an elven lightblade and elven thinblade and see how that seems to flesh out. And its Daring, not Dashing outlaw :P The memory of the aging... I post this build often, but it bears repeating: • Humans make the best Daring Outlaws because the build is feat, skill and stat intensive. • Weapon Spec/Mastery > 1.5d6 sneak attack • Power Attack > TWF because you are too feat starved to go up the whole TWF chain That's a very interesting concept as well; do you feel like the loss of the extra attack and SA damage is offset by the extra damage of the two handed power attack? And it has the advantage of doing more damage in the situation of move action - standard attack. Any worries with the will save? And I wonder if a spiked chain would work (but I guess not nearly as synergistic with the telling blow and power critical, but could combat expertise/improved trip/combat reflexes) Levels of fighter would drastically improve the combat potential, but impair my skillz. Tough call. I'm also not sure that the penetrating attack alt. ability of a rogue meshes with the telling blow/power critical. How about: 1. Grey Elf St 12, Dx 16, Cn 12, In 16, Ws 10, Ch 10 1 Rogue 1 two weapon fighting 2 Swashbuckler 1 weapon finesse 3 Fighter 1 imp. weapon familiarity, weapon focus (rapier) 4 Rogue 2 +1 Dex 17 thinblade +5 melee 1d8+1 +1d6 SA (avg 9) lightblade +5 melee 1d6 +1d6 SA (avg 7) 5 Swashbuckler 2 6 Fighter 2 power critical, telling blow 7 Rogue 3 (retrain power critical for Daring Outlaw) 8 Swashbuckler 3 +1 Dex 18, insightful strike thinblade +10/+5 melee 1d8+4 +3d6 SA (avg 19 x2) lightblade +10 melee 1d6+3 +3d6 SA (avg 17) 9 Fighter 3 power critical 10 Fighter 4 weapon specialization (rapier); 11 Rogue 4 12 Swashbuckler 4 melee weapon mastery (piercing) thinblade +16/+11/+6 melee 1d8+8 +4d6 SA (avg 26.5 x3) lightblade +16 melee 1d6+7 +4d6 SA (avg 24.5) Annoying to keep trading in and out of a feat. Maybe deadly defense/two weapon defense instead of telling bow/power critical. 2. Halfling St 12, Dx 16, Cn 14, In 14, Ws 10, Ch 10 1 Rogue 1 two weapon fighting 2 Swashbuckler 1 weapon finesse 3 Fighter 1 weapon focus (cutlass); telling blow 4 Rogue 2 +1 Dex 17 cutlass +6 melee 1d4+1 +1d6 SA (avg 7) cutlass +6 melee 1d4 +1d6 SA (avg 6) 5 Swashbuckler 2 6 Rogue 3 daring outlaw 7 Fighter 2 power critical 8 Swashbuckler 3 +1 Dex 18, insightful strike cutlass +11/+6 melee 1d4+3 +3d6 SA (avg 16 x2) cutlass +11 melee 1d4+2 +3d6 SA (avg 15) 9 Fighter 3 improved critical 10 Fighter 4 weapon specialization (cutlass) 11 Rogue 4 12 Swashbuckler 4 melee weapon mastery (slasing) cutlass +17/+12/+7 melee 1d4+7 +4d6 SA (avg 23.5 x2) cutlass +17 melee 1d4+6 +4d6 SA (avg 22.5) Smaller crit range and I have to roll a d4. 3. Human (modified courtblade build) St 14, Dx 14, Cn 14, In 14, Ws 10, Ch 10 1 Rogue 1 Power Attack, Telling Blow 2 Fighter 1 Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Elven Courtblade 3 Swashbuckler 1 Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus: Greatsword 4 Rogue 2 +1 St 15 greatsword +5 melee 1d10+5 +1d6 SA (avg 14 with power attack 1) comparable damage, plus only a standard action 5 Swashbuckler 2 6 Rogue 3 Daring Outlaw 7 Fighter 2 Power Critical 8 Fighter 3 +1 St 16 greatsword +10/+5 melee 1d10+6 +3d6 SA (avg 22 x2 with power attack 1) 9 Fighter 4 Weapon Specialization (Greatsword), Melee Weapon Mastery 10 Swashbuckler 3 insightful strike 11 Rogue 4 12 Swashbuckler 4 improved critical greatsword +16/+11/+6 melee 1d10+10 +4d6 SA (avg 29.5 x3 with power attack 1) Huh.... damage potential does seem to slightly less at a similar attack range, but would take greater advantage of strength boosts and better in mobile fights... Thanks for the ideas, I'll play around with this more...
jstorrie 07-25-07, 11:39 PM	I'm not sure why you would boost Cha for a Daring Outlaw. You won't be running Diplomacy or Intimidate. As far as skills go, though, Fighter 4 doesn't wreck you–you're a human with 14 Int. You're okay. Boosting Str instead of Dex will cause you trouble. You're skilled up as a highly mobile infantry type, so should be somersaulting around in a mithril chain shirt; 16 Dex and level bumps will be needed to top out your AC. You can still wear a Belt of Giant Strength, anyway, so I wouldn't sweat having Strength a little lower and Dex a little higher–Dex goes into Power Attack anyway, and high Init is good for a sneak-attacker.
Demoyn 07-26-07, 09:18 AM	Now if I can just get the guy below me to edit his quote, maybe some people won't realize how much of an rtard I am!
Vanadium 07-26-07, 12:56 PM	I just wanted to point out, in case the OP didn't catch it, that the fighter/swashbuckler feat will be free at 12th level because he'll immediately get two more free feats. I'm not sure what you mean here. If you are referring to Daring Warrior, that just lets Swashbuckler levels stack with Fighter levels for the purposes of things like Weapon Specialization, which require X levels of Fighter to take. It doesn't give you free feats.