Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LachlarlanIII 07-10-07, 09:57 AM	The HO mount feature states it stacks with druid, paladin, and ranger for determining the bonuses of a paladin's mount or animal companion. Beastmaster grants an effective druid level for purposes of having an animal companion. Devoted Tracker states if one has an animal companion and special mount, he may treat the mount as his animal companion for determining its bonuses. Would HO stack with beastmaster levels to determine an animal companion's stats? If the above is question is yes, and with Devoted Tracker, would a Pal5/HO3/BM1 have the equivalent of an 8th level mount (Pal5 + HO3) and a 12th level animal companion (Pal5 + HO3 + Effective Druid Level 4)? Thanks!
delewobmesid 07-10-07, 01:48 PM	I'd suggest moving this post to the rules section (I'm sure the rules lawyers will be happy to confuse the issue for you.
bitznarf 07-10-07, 03:47 PM	You've stumbled onto the core mechanic of what is known as 'Supermount (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=382372)' on the CharOp boards. You may find that DMs won't allow something like this on a RAI argument, but by RAW the trick pretty much just works.
Banor 07-11-07, 07:29 AM	You should put disclaimer when you link thread like that, that was a disgusting read yet i couldnt stop. Was like watching a very poor B series horror movie
bitznarf 07-11-07, 09:51 AM	There is a reason the thread is in the 'theoretical optimization' forum, ie. the place for stuff that is not intended to ever see actual gameplay.
delewobmesid 07-11-07, 10:43 AM	on the linked article, the build doesn't seem to work as far as I can tell; too many feats are required for the prestidge classes which are not accounted for. would a paladin 4 with a stacking prestidge class be granted a special mount?
bitznarf 07-11-07, 10:49 AM	Some people say yes, some people say no. The reason some say no is that the mount advancing PrCs advance mount progression, they don't specifically say that you can get a mount to start with, ie. if you already have one it gets advanced, but without a mount to start with the PrC has nothing to add on to. Those who think it does work tend to go with a 'that doesn't make sense and is just splitting hairs. The RAI are such that yes, a Paladin 4/Cavalier 1 has a mount.' Or some such line of thought. Note that many if not all of the builds in that thread are not LG legal, and some may be using flaws from Unearthed Arcana to get the feats they need.
LachlarlanIII 07-11-07, 10:51 AM	My example went paladin far enough to gain the Special Mount feature, so that shouldn't be an issue.
delewobmesid 07-11-07, 12:50 PM	The only problem becomes how a character gets into wild plains outrider and halfling outrider from there (as those stack quite nicely); For Devoted Tracker you need smite, track and wild empathy; getting track without a level of ranger becomes tricky Halfling 12,10,14,12,12,14 1 ranger Mounted Combat, *Track 2 Paladin 3 Paladin Devoted tracker 4 Paladin 5 Paladin 6 Paladin Skill focus handle animal 7 Beastmaster 8 wild plains outrider 9 wild plains outrider mounted archery 10 Halfling Outrider 11 Halfling Outrider 12 Halfling Outrider Natural Bond (assuming access) or ?? 13 Halfling Outrider 14 Halfling Outrider 15 Halfling Outrider ??
LachlarlanIII 07-11-07, 12:53 PM	Yeah, the biggest hurdle is the xp/gp penalty such a character has during its career. :(
haferka 07-12-07, 10:39 PM	Yeah, the biggest hurdle is the xp/gp penalty such a character has during its career. :( what ?... this is LG.. that just lets you play more mods... I would suggest playing up.. the death(s) won't be so bad... be sure and play with a druid type.. so when you die.. the 'supermount' can still be under the control of someone in the party...
bitznarf 07-12-07, 11:22 PM	Good luck getting this to fly at a LG table. I am fairly certain that the RAI goes directly against Halfling Outrider adding to both effective druid level and effective paladin level.
Franco Un-American 07-13-07, 02:04 AM	We haven't the slightest idea what the RAI is for the ability. We are not the designer, nor are we telepathic. What's written on the page is the only thing we have to go on, and the text says it adds to both.
haferka 07-13-07, 08:57 AM	What's written on the page is the only thing we have to go on, and the text says it adds to both. Well.. if you look at the rules that were available at the time......Beastmaster. The wording seems to be intended to prevent HO from improving a Beastmaster's secondary companions. Devoted tracker came much later.. and the designer failed to see this loophole OR he left it open on purpose...?
LachlarlanIII 07-13-07, 09:58 AM	Devoted tracker came much later.. and the designer failed to see this loophole OR he left it open on purpose...? Devoted Tracker is in the same book as Beastmaster.
haferka 07-13-07, 11:57 AM	Devoted Tracker is in the same book as Beastmaster. dohh. that's what I get for working from memory and typing on phone instead of working. ...I will now...assume... that different authors worked on those rule elements.
bitznarf 07-13-07, 12:05 PM	We haven't the slightest idea what the RAI is for the ability. We are not the designer, nor are we telepathic. What's written on the page is the only thing we have to go on, and the text says it adds to both. Like I said, good luck. I personally think the RAI is clear. Others may not. Hence there could be table variation.