Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LGMoses 06-26-07, 12:24 PM	What class is hardest to find at the higher apls? Or if you prefer, what role is needed more at high apls: trapfinder, tank, battlefield control wizards, etc? What class and purpose is the hardest to find at the high apls.
solbergb 06-26-07, 12:34 PM	hardest to find - rogues most needed - probably a real cleric or favored soul with the right spells. There are conditions only a cleric can fix that are common in higher levels - in particular "energy/abiltiy drain" and "ressurection" situations. A druid can't help either situation, and an arcanist needs limited wish to fix a simple low CR incoporeal dead encounter healing session. Next most necessary is an arcanist, or at least somebody who can simulate the strategic and tactical movement abilities of an arcane (a party with divine casters can kinda-sorta do this, as can a rogue with expensive scrolls)
_metz_ 06-26-07, 01:05 PM	Well yeah, of the 4 iconics, it would have to be rogues. There just aren't that many high level rogue types around. Most high level characters I see are; Druids (maybe not so much after the nerf and subsequent rebuild) fighter types, Arcanists, The odd clerc (less of these than the others) and then a few Ranger types.
UMiskatonic 06-26-07, 01:08 PM	I agree that high-level rogues are scarce. There's a reason for that, rogue is the class that scales worst with level. The other one that I find rare, is high level fighters who are willing to take damage. Doing damage is nice, and that's important, but someone needs to stand in front of the squashier players.
boogahwoof 06-26-07, 11:48 PM	ide have to agree high level rouges or pure clerics are harder and harder to find
_metz_ 06-27-07, 12:02 AM	ide have to agree high level rouges or pure clerics are harder and harder to find Heehee This is why both my favourite characters of mine are: A pretty much pure rogue (8th level atm will end up with at least 10 levels of rogue) A Pure Cleric (Though not a RSoP) (only 7th level atm) My other two favourites are my Pure wizard, and traditional damage producing fighter... I must be a purist...
control freak 06-27-07, 12:31 AM	its also possibly because rogues tend to get blown up stoned or disintigrated, as their fort tends to be bad or thier will saves are bad rogues are usualy squishieeeee but not as bad as wizards however the wiz tends to get really powerful really fast but the rog has to multi class ALOT to make it good, personaly i think 1 level of fighter is in order for my rogue (im going with something like rogue4/fighter 1/ mountebank 10 good? (as its slip slide is one of the most broken ablitys ever depending on how your DM plays immediate actions, our DMs play magic mostly and say that they are basicaly instants pick a second that you want to use them (effectivly you shot my char with a beholder eye ray, ok im now not there and you missed because im 20 ft away) another one is like dodge, combat reflexes, mobility, for 5 and 6th levl so i go a level of shadow dancer for hide in plain sight usualy a rogue has to multi class A TON with ablitys that make it not exist, so ok darkstalker exct and feats that make him unseeable, ok so the party is dead ill just solo the mod
copper_wyrmling 06-27-07, 01:14 AM	This one has massive regional variation. In the city where I first started playing LG, after about my first year of play I was the only regular player with a cleric in the L8+ range - there were a couple of higher-level clerics but they almost never played. In online games, high-level primary spellcasters (both divine and arcane) seem to be rare compared to melee types. I've actually seen quite a number of high-level rogues. I tend to feel that primary arcane casters are more important than their divine counterparts at APL 12+. Not having Heroes' Feast is horrible (especially when you encounter shrieking terrors that force DC 34 fear-based Fort saves or be paralyzed on the entire party), but not having mass fly / teleport / arcane battlefield control seems to cause major problems rather more often, in my experience. (Note: My two highest-level PCs are essentially a cleric 15 and a sorcerer 12, so I've never been on a high-level table that lacked both divine and arcane spellcasting - and I don't want to be ;) )
LGMoses 06-27-07, 03:50 AM	Yeah I expect regional variation on this as well. So post your region with your need plz! Maybe we can work out a region exchange program and send needed classes where they need to be.
Cardinal Teplin 06-27-07, 07:40 AM	My Druid 15th is built to fight in wildshape. He usually ends up as the front liner in the party, stopping the monsters from attacking the squisher PCs. Main shortage I've seen at high level is straight fighter types, the role ususally filled by fighting clerics, monks, light infantry variations and gishes. (Onnwal)
UMiskatonic 06-27-07, 09:35 AM	I was amazed to find that the Archclericy of Veluna was short on clerics. I've been there twice, and the last time, there were two under APL 10 at the entire convention. Lots of paladins, though. Highfolk steers toward rangers, elves, and elf rangers, with enough wizards and halflings to keep things interesting. They're short on beat-down fighters, and maybe a trifle short of clerics.
Prof. Pacali 06-27-07, 10:34 AM	Without a doubt high level rogues (or rogue-like PrCs) are scarce. Part of this is that rogues have low hp and AC, but usually are expected to enter melee, but also at high levels there's no longer a need for them. Speaking as the player of a rogue, rogues only shine in the rare oppurtunities to disarm a trap, pick a lock, steal something, go scouting, or do stuff out of combat. At high APLs the party no longer needs a rogue to do any of those things. So people rarely want to play a character that will be useless at APL 10. Knock, Find Traps, Greater Invisibility, and other spells negate the need for a rogue, and if the need ever comes up, there is the spell Nightstalker's Transformation, to turn an Arcane caster into a rogue. This is a serious problem with the game, that hopefully will be a little remedied in 4.0 (the only possible reason I could want to see that dreaded occurance). In 3.5 fighters can keep up with arcane casters to APL 10 by taking power attack and dipping in Barbarian, but there is little incentive to play a sneaky character. This is worsened by the time constraints of LG, where the players never scout, because it will take away time from finishing the mod, or worse will auto-trigger the box texted encounter. So nobody plays a rogue at high levels. My rogue has abandoned the class, and will be taking Blade Bravo levels (long story short: reincarnated as a gnome.) This could be ameliorated in some ways be adopting the SECR's skill rules, so that a rogue only needs one skill in order to be sneaky, and will generally be much better at it than other classes, but again that's a decision for the 4.0 designers. In the meantime on the rare occaisions that a rogue would be handy, the party is up a creek, no paddle. Just the 2 coppers of an annoyed player of a rogue.
Banor 06-27-07, 10:42 AM	Without a doubt high level rogues (or rogue-like PrCs) are scarce. Part of this is that rogues have low hp and AC, but usually are expected to enter melee, but also at high levels there's no longer a need for them. Speaking as the player of a rogue, rogues only shine in the rare oppurtunities to disarm a trap, pick a lock, steal something, go scouting, or do stuff out of combat. At high APLs the party no longer needs a rogue to do any of those things. So people rarely want to play a character that will be useless at APL 10. Knock, Find Traps, Greater Invisibility, and other spells negate the need for a rogue, and if the need ever comes up, there is the spell Nightstalker's Transformation, to turn an Arcane caster into a rogue. This is a serious problem with the game, that hopefully will be a little remedied in 4.0 (the only possible reason I could want to see that dreaded occurance). In 3.5 fighters can keep up with arcane casters to APL 10 by taking power attack and dipping in Barbarian, but there is little incentive to play a sneaky character. This is worsened by the time constraints of LG, where the players never scout, because it will take away time from finishing the mod, or worse will auto-trigger the box texted encounter. So nobody plays a rogue at high levels. My rogue has abandoned the class, and will be taking Blade Bravo levels (long story short: reincarnated as a gnome.) This could be ameliorated in some ways be adopting the SECR's skill rules, so that a rogue only needs one skill in order to be sneaky, and will generally be much better at it than other classes, but again that's a decision for the 4.0 designers. In the meantime on the rare occaisions that a rogue would be handy, the party is up a creek, no paddle. Just the 2 coppers of an annoyed player of a rogue. Wall of text crit you for 500. You die. On another note, not only in LG but in general gaming pure healing/buffing classes are not very common. People prefer to pew pew thing i guess :P
bitznarf 06-27-07, 10:56 AM	Wall of text crit you for 500. You die. Wall of well written, well thought out text. He gets a cookie.
UMiskatonic 06-27-07, 11:31 AM	Knock, Find Traps, Greater Invisibility, and other spells negate the need for a rogue, and if the need ever comes up, there is the spell Nightstalker's Transformation, to turn an Arcane caster into a rogue. This is a serious problem with the game, The preview for Monte Cook's Iron Heroes had a list of skills, and a list of spells that made them worthless. All the examples above, of course, as well as things like Levitate > Climb, and True Seeing > Spot. Seeing it all in one place is staggering. This problem is compounded by players who build "the most skilled character EVER"; because that's the exact kind of rogue who becomes obsolete fastest. It happened to my shadowdancer/exemplar, when I realized that even with Skill Artistry: Escape Artist, I would always fail to escape from a particular monster by 13 or more. I won't make that mistake again; I realize now that LG rogues need to be useful in combat, and that means some serious thought in character design, feat selection, and multi-classing options.
_metz_ 06-27-07, 02:10 PM	Wall of well written, well thought out text. He gets a cookie. I go and get him some Anzac Biscuits. I like walls of well written, well thought out text. I will ask for the occasional break in the paragraphs though... :P
JamesMaissen 06-27-07, 04:54 PM	What class is hardest to find at the higher apls? Or if you prefer, what role is needed more at high apls: trapfinder, tank, battlefield control wizards, etc? What class and purpose is the hardest to find at the high apls. I'll chime in with everyone else that it is the rogue. Different regions and 'crops' of PCs will suffer gluts and dearths of iconic roles, but for the most part a nearly pure rogue is generally missing after awhile. I think this has a few factors to it: A melee rogue: With d6 hitdice this means that your 14 CON rogue has the hps of a 10CON fighter. If you try to play like a fighter, you will suffer just as much as a light fighter who chooses a 10 CON. More so, as you are more likely to look to break ranks (for flanking) penatrating enemies battle lines (via tumble) and look the squishiest (light armor, no shield). A ranged rogue: You won't find much joy for sneak attacks while at the same time tying up a bunch of feats (likely all of them) towards being subpar. After awhile you will feel far underpowered and unhappy with the character as a result. Traps rogue: This is one place where the rogue can shine. But by trying to fill this role you wind up leading the party which can draw even more fire... Light fighters/infantry in general: These suffer from the LG method of random party compositions more than others. Before playing LG I thought that sorcerers would head this list, but it seems to be light fighters more than anything. Perceptions in LG: Many mods, judges and players are not used to handling scouting and handle it poorly. You then tend to fall into a mindset that you shouldn't do so or that 'it doesn't work in LG'. Thus you curtail a good amount of the strength of your PC.. after which finding that you are less than optimal should only be expected. -James
Majoru Oakheart 06-27-07, 06:42 PM	Perceptions in LG: Many mods, judges and players are not used to handling scouting and handle it poorly. You then tend to fall into a mindset that you shouldn't do so or that 'it doesn't work in LG'. Thus you curtail a good amount of the strength of your PC.. after which finding that you are less than optimal should only be expected. (off topic) That's because...it doesn't work in LG. I can't even count the number of times stealth has been ruined by the way the mod was written and...partially by bad players. For instance: 1) Player: "I sneak ahead of the rest of the party 100 feet. I get to a door? I open it." DM: "Alright, roll for initiative against the two ogres standing on both sides of the door inside the room" Player: "But...I was hiding, I rolled 23 on my hide check" DM: "Yes, they instead made the DC 0 spot check to notice the door opening. Once the door was open, you didn't have cover against them any longer and you can't hide without cover." DM: "They win initiative. They do 30 damage to your 3rd level rogue. The rest of the party hears a loud crunch as your skull is crushed." Player: "I can see their campsite?" DM: "Yes" Player: "I sneak up on the camp using the foliage as cover" DM: "Roll for initiative as the whole camp turns in your direction." Player: "But I rolled 28 for my hide!" DM: "That's all fine and stuff, but the enemy has had an invisible, silent flying imp following you around since the beginning of the adventure. When he heard your plan to sneak up on the camp, he followed you. Then, he flew off, warned everyone in the camp that you were coming and pointed you out to them. The mod says they get +30 to their roll for knowing exactly where you are. The rest of the party is far enough away so they don't even hear the combat start. Looks like you'll be fighting the APL+4 encounter by yourself." Then on top of that, there was a period of time where we played 10 mods in a row in which only 3 encounters in 33 were not immune to sneak attacks.
GreatSiron 06-27-07, 06:58 PM	(off topic) That's because...it doesn't work in LG. I can't even count the number of times stealth has been ruined by the way the mod was written and...partially by bad players. For instance: 1) Player: "I sneak ahead of the rest of the party 100 feet. I get to a door? I open it." DM: "Alright, roll for initiative against the two ogres standing on both sides of the door inside the room" Player: "But...I was hiding, I rolled 23 on my hide check" DM: "Yes, they instead made the DC 0 spot check to notice the door opening. Once the door was open, you didn't have cover against them any longer and you can't hide without cover." DM: "They win initiative. They do 30 damage to your 3rd level rogue. The rest of the party hears a loud crunch as your skull is crushed." Player: "I can see their campsite?" DM: "Yes" Player: "I sneak up on the camp using the foliage as cover" DM: "Roll for initiative as the whole camp turns in your direction." Player: "But I rolled 28 for my hide!" DM: "That's all fine and stuff, but the enemy has had an invisible, silent flying imp following you around since the beginning of the adventure. When he heard your plan to sneak up on the camp, he followed you. Then, he flew off, warned everyone in the camp that you were coming and pointed you out to them. The mod says they get +30 to their roll for knowing exactly where you are. The rest of the party is far enough away so they don't even hear the combat start. Looks like you'll be fighting the APL+4 encounter by yourself." Then on top of that, there was a period of time where we played 10 mods in a row in which only 3 encounters in 33 were not immune to sneak attacks. Gezz, sounds like someone doesn't like rogues.
solbergb 06-27-07, 08:25 PM	scenario 1 - sure. doors mess up scouts. He should have just listened at the door and moved on. scenario 2 - maybe. The imp can point it out and even pinpoint the square you're in but they still have to make the spot checks to do anything but swing/shoot blindly into the square. Of course most rogues who scout have fantastic listen checks and imps aren't all that great at move silent. How come the rogue didn't notice the imp wings flapping as it followed him around? The scouts I've encountered and both of my "scouting" characters would have noticed and the likely result would have been a pinpointed, glitterdusted/faerie fired or just feathered imp. And if it didn't immediately flee, a dead imp. (there are no silence spells with sufficient duration to have it follow you all day, except possibly sculpt sound, on some interpretations) Some of these scouts can spot an invisible person who moves too, just sucking up the -20 to the spot check (it's only -40 if the invisible guy remains stationary). I've had pretty good luck with scouting, but it was either with significant party support (extra buffs, communication spells, sometimes mobility spells) or with a strategy that the party is exactly as far behind the main scout as their move silent checks can support (distance mods on their take 10 move silent = scout's take 10 move silent). This means they're usually only an action or so away from the scout, especially at higher levels where at a scream across the message, the rest of the party can be dim-doored in, or the tank can be benign transposed with the scout or whatever. It is important for the scout not to be too cocky. We had one memorable incident where we trusted the rogue to sneak up without a silence spell (he WAS good at move silent) on a nest of outsiders with +8 racial bonuses to listen and maxed ranks....that went badly as the fight started with him halfway between them and us....
Lomiat 06-28-07, 12:27 AM	We have a high-level Shadowdancer mutt in our regular playgroup, and he's had varied success with the advance scouting. I think (and this is likely biased by my lack of experience with his PC when I'm not at the table) that he's had his best scouting success when he's played with my wizard, who gladly helped him with buffs and Message and kept the party moving behind at the edge of Message duration, ready to Dim Door forward if necessary. That tactic led to several nice surprise rounds -- for us, though we didn't always land in the best position with the Dim Door. On the other hand, he's also managed to confound everything's Spot and Listen checks... but still get screwed after tripping Tremorsense creatures or Life sense creatures.
lunarfish 06-28-07, 03:43 AM	As the player of aforementioned high-level "shadowdancer" (a more accurate description would be high level dread commando), I cannot disagree more with Majoru Oakheart's statements that scouting "doesn't work" in LG. It is certainly easier to scout in home campaigns, where the players are more stable and know their party members better, but in LG it is certainly possible to scout successfully. After five years of successful scouting (and unsuccessful scouting, three times fatally so), Kallor will say that having a scout in your party can prove to be a huge resource saver. I'll write a full, cohesive, legible, and intelligent reply tomorrow. It's 2:40 a.m. here, and I'm just about to feint from exhaustion.
draxynnic 06-28-07, 04:29 AM	One thing I've been noticing locally is that there are at least as many Arcane Trickster-types as regular rogue-types. For wizard/rogues especially, the high Int that comes from being an Int-based spellcaster means they're usually at least as good at finding and disabling traps - and while they aren't as good as a pure arcane spellcaster, they do have the ability to throw magic in combat, which is often more effective - and safer - than trying to sneak attack. And the beguiler is making it even harder for the nonmagical rogue to be relevant...
_metz_ 06-28-07, 04:59 AM	One thing I've been noticing locally is that there are at least as many Arcane Trickster-types as regular rogue-types. For wizard/rogues especially, the high Int that comes from being an Int-based spellcaster means they're usually at least as good at finding and disabling traps - and while they aren't as good as a pure arcane spellcaster, they do have the ability to throw magic in combat, which is often more effective - and safer - than trying to sneak attack. And the beguiler is making it even harder for the nonmagical rogue to be relevant... I totally agree. The beguiler class bugs me, what the hell is it? As for Rogues, I think they are a very viable class in a HOME game where you check every door cos there might be a trap. In LG where there is often, at most, ONE trap a mod... less useful. however, in general I feel Rogues have several distinct issues that nerf them. In order to be really viable in the next edition (not that I am pro next edition, but it'll happen at some point) - less skill point requirements (make disable device/open lock the same thing maybe?) At present it is almost impossible to have a rogue with most of the skills they are supposed to have and have any variation at all. - Some sort of Dodge Bonus to AC like the swashbuckler/etc. - Some more class benefits between level 3 and level 10. Trap sense isn't good enough quite frankly. - SOMETHING to offset the fact that sneak attack doesn't work on half the stuff around. Maybe a Rogue ability at level 10 that allows you to sneak non sneakable stuff etc. Atm High level rogues are SO not worth it. I REALLY like rogues, they are my favourite class to play, and am currently primarily playing a mostly rogue PC. (except for the odd dip into Dread Pirate, scarlet corsair or Legendary Captain) I like the rogue, and feel it should remain one of the four iconics, but needs some work. (On a side note, I feel Monks, Druids and Rangers need some work as well, clerics wizards and fighter types are pretty fine in my books, even as casters take the cake at high levels <which is inevitable, a cosmic show of magic will always beat a sword>)
bitznarf 06-28-07, 10:32 AM	You think *druids* need a power boost??? Or are you just saying they need a change?
_metz_ 06-28-07, 11:34 AM	You think *druids* need a power boost??? Or are you just saying they need a change? I mean they need some 'work'. Which implies alteration, not a boost ;)
AOSOL 06-28-07, 11:54 AM	The hardest to find class at high levels are divine casters. It's about APL 10 when clerics and druids are gunned for because they get a few nice buff spells and believe they can take the fighter position :whatsthis and thus get creamed on in the third round. So, for future referrence when you here your beloved bandage box say "I can be a great fighter, I can cast divine power and divine might!" You quickly reply "no you cannot. You don't have a +2 adamantine sword/hammer and you don't have that many hit points tiger."
Lupo 06-28-07, 11:56 AM	You think *druids* need a power boost??? Or are you just saying they need a change? at least the "at best half baked" wildshape errata needs a complete reconstruction ;) and yes, currently rogues are one of the most "underpowered base classes", at least for the LG setting. the need to get toe-to-toe for using the combat benefits of the class, combined with way to few HPs and an armor restriction make them really squishy. and prestige classes that have full "sneak progression" are not as common as full BAB or full caster level progression. ciao martin m.
control freak 06-28-07, 12:44 PM	You don't have a +2 adamantine sword/hammer and you don't have that many hit points tiger." no i have a +1 cold iron morning star with more HP then the fighter after i self buff.. (divine vigor+ bears endurance= 63 hps at lvl 5 and thast with no other buffs such as AID exct) granted a fighter probably has more hps but not that much more the issue isnt that we cant, its that most dont do the RIGHT buffs they need to up thier con and temp hps which normaly doesnt happen (the AC can help too when you have a low 30s ac at level 5 and a low 20s touch it is good and some times i get in melee with a weak creature simply to up my touch AC) put tipicaly they do better flinging spells all day long such as searing light, and sound lance(the 2nd i really want limited avalablity too) and buffs and healing the tanks that get hit for 40+ a round its not that you CANT be a fighter but you do better not needing to heal your self
UMiskatonic 06-28-07, 05:19 PM	It would be better if more creatures had something like fortification 10; the way they have fire resistance 10. Out and out immunity to basically the rogues only way of doing damage is like being immune to weapons or magic. A hugely powerful ability that makes a BIG deal to CR ratings. This way, high level rogues can be effective vs. constructs and whatever, and cut through it the way barbarians power attack through DR. It's annoying, but not game-breaking.
control freak 06-28-07, 09:11 PM	thats why you have your friendly cleric and wizard and have them cast grave and golem strike so you can do it, but i think they should replace trap sence and gain something like Unnatural sneak attack/ X per day where X= the trapsence pergression, sneak attack something outside of 30 feet (to a max of like 100 or 120) or sneak attack undead constructs elementals or other creatures immune to sneak attacks no matter if they are immune to crits (that would help and let them deal damage at least once or twice against undead and constructs and be a balanced ablity) and maby have a feat thats like "extra unnatural sneak attack +3 unnatural sneak attacks" or something like that would solve the issue with them fast and simple and personaly i would be fine if they just couldnt do it on undead (the Radiant servant of the cheeze can do that) but the cant on immune to crits one is stupid i understand the logic but everything has a weak point even elementals, i mean come on theres gota be joints on an earth elemental and theres gota be some point that is weaker but personaly strongest at high levels (say 12+) i would say is in the order (by arch type) 1 cleric/druid 2 wiz/sorc 3 fighter/barb 4 bard/buff guys 5 rogues
Vanadium 06-28-07, 10:34 PM	thats why you have your friendly cleric and wizard and have them cast grave and golem strike so you can do it, but i think they should replace trap sence and gain something like The -strike spells are personal. You can transfer them via Imbue with Spell Ability, but only Grave Strike (normally). Of course, with things like Unseen Seer and Pious Templar, you can cast them by yourself. Unnatural sneak attack/ X per day where X= the trapsence pergression, sneak attack something outside of 30 feet (to a max of like 100 or 120) or sneak attack undead constructs elementals or other creatures immune to sneak attacks no matter if they are immune to crits (that would help and let them deal damage at least once or twice against undead and constructs and be a balanced ablity) and maby have a feat thats like "extra unnatural sneak attack +3 unnatural sneak attacks" or something like that would solve the issue with them fast and simple This exists via prestige classes and substitution levels in at least three different sources (Castle Ravenloft, Dungeonscape, and Complete Champion). However, none of these sources are open for us, and they don't address the much bigger problems that rogues face, which have been hammered out in this thread. Namely, Stealth and Trapfinding (what you are expected to do)are less reliable (but not unusable) in the Living Campaign and you are playing a meleer with low Hitpoints, BAB, and AC. I'd love to see the Dungeonscape ability (Penetrating Strike) open up Core, even if its just for the Greyhawk characters. However, I realize now that even this would not end all problems, and probably cause a large group of people to make rogues thinking that it does, only to be sorely dissapointed later on. Unless I'm completely off-base, of course.
Frumpkis 06-29-07, 03:09 AM	however, in general I feel Rogues have several distinct issues that nerf them. In order to be really viable in the next edition (not that I am pro next edition, but it'll happen at some point): Okay, I know I'm going against 25 years of D&D tradition by advocating this, but........ - make rogues a d8 HP class. (heck, while we're at it, make bards a d8 HP class too) :gah:
magebeast 06-29-07, 04:37 AM	Okay, I know I'm going against 25 years of D&D tradition by advocating this, but........ - make rogues a d8 HP class. (heck, while we're at it, make bards a d8 HP class too) :gah: Eh. The time my bard has died so far, the 5 extra hit points wouldn't have saved him.
draxynnic 06-29-07, 10:09 AM	Eh. The time my bard has died so far, the 5 extra hit points wouldn't have saved him. The extra hit points from doing this would mean my bard would still be a him. :P Controlfreak: You may be able to get a decent HP total by putting those self-buffs into yourself - but if you put that Bear's Endurance on the tank instead, then the tank would probably have a lot more hit points, and it keeps you just a little bit further from the action. Sometimes it's called for, but it's a balancing act - remember that each round spent self-buffing is a round in which you're leaving the rest of the party hanging, unless you have a chance to prebuff. Defensive buffs are more general purpose, but damage buffs, where possible, are better to put on the tank rather than trying to make a tank of yourself, especially in combat. Put it on the fighter and they can use it in the same round (or earlier than you in the next), while putting it on yourself means the party gets nothing from it until you're next round in which you're not casting a spell.
copper_wyrmling 06-29-07, 11:02 AM	Defensive buffs are more general purpose, but damage buffs, where possible, are better to put on the tank rather than trying to make a tank of yourself, especially in combat. Put it on the fighter and they can use it in the same round (or earlier than you in the next), while putting it on yourself means the party gets nothing from it until you're next round in which you're not casting a spell. Sometimes. Sometimes not. At high levels, in particular, where it's all about the full attack, it's not at all clear that "I self-buff as I move in, next round I'll full attack" gets resources into the front lines significantly slower than "I cast a buff on the fighter, he moves in and swings once, next round he'll full attack" The reason that clerics in particular may want to do the former is that their personal buffs tend to be a lot more powerful than anything they can cast on other people - buffed cleric + unbuffed fighter tends to put out more melee damage than unbuffed cleric + buffed fighter, given the same number of rounds to cast buff spells and a good choice of spells (of course it depends on the cleric: you need to have a certain amount of melee prowess to begin with). I don't think it's so true for bards, but I'm not that familiar with the bard spell list. AOSOL, I think part of the reason you don't see a lot of clerics at high APLs, at least in some areas, is that they get bored with other PCs / players telling them they have to be a bandage box, and the characters get de-facto-retired. I know there were a couple of clerics in that situation in the city where I first started playing. I've heard very, very similar comments to your post from certain players - yet those same people never hesitated to demand that my cleric take AoOs to move in and heal them, and that put her in more danger than "pretending to be a fighter" ever did. Clerics have a lot of ways to prepare if they know they're going to want to be in melee: around L12 my usual response to "You don't have a +2 adamantine weapon and you don't have that many hit points" would be something like (more tactfully phrased), "No, but my extended magic vestments, greater magic weapon and equipment purchases mean that I have a +3 Holy weapon and my AC is 35 rather than 20: that matters a lot when the bad guys are at +20 to hit."
control freak 06-29-07, 11:13 AM	personaly i dont mind buffing the fighter but at my store tipicaly the cleric rogue or monk becomes the tank as we have a total of 2 fighters at the store and some rangers which use bows, as well as 1 swashbuckler so you have to also consider that, and a better responce to i dont have a +2 adamantine whepon is, no i have 2-3 floating force whepons with a +3 enhancement bonus or "ok, (casts harm and watches them fall too one hps) that works too, or any direct damage spell, makes them like wizards, but that can heal so people want to get them to keep them alive, well theres a better way then healing to do that some times (for instance if you cast bull stringth its probably not as good as a searing light if theres only 1 guy your faceing)
_metz_ 06-29-07, 11:14 AM	Okay, I know I'm going against 25 years of D&D tradition by advocating this, but........ - make rogues a d8 HP class. (heck, while we're at it, make bards a d8 HP class too) :gah: I never find hit points to be that much of an issue. Its armour class/Saves Rogues need SO much NON melee gear to be fully operational, so their armour isn't usually that crash hot in upgrades, NOT to mention their weaponry. Hence I find rogues die by lack of AC (everything hits) and anything that is a fort or will save smacks em up. (Who needs a reflex save honestly? there isn't any Ref or die stuff...) Rogues REALLY need some AC help, and also need more skill stuff to offset the fact that unlike the fighter, a rogue can't be fully effective at its skills (lens of detection, boot and cloaks of elvenkind, etc) ALL are the sorts of things that don't directly impact on combat. Without buffing spells, ir good armour, Rogues get beat on. a lot.
Mommy was an Orc 06-29-07, 02:39 PM	Really, Rogues aren't that difficult. The problem usually is that builds/players don't take what happens when they can't sneak into account at 1st level, then realize at higher APLs that being sneak attack immune is such a big problem. They also don't ask other players for help - a BDF doesn't need someone else to provide flanks or a caster to provide glitterdust. The rules of being a Rogue in LG: Never dump Strength unless you can guarantee damage without it. Especially for Charisma. A Rogue with 5 ranks in Bluff and Sense Motive is likely going to be just as good as any other Diplomat the party might have, even with an 8 Charisma. This is especially true for Archer Rogues who can probably get by as an 'archer' with a 16 Str, PBS/Precise Shot/Rapid Shot. Always make sure you can get a full attack off on round 1 if opponents are within 30' - you're likely going first and there'll never be an easier time to find flatfooted opponents. You can hold a bow or take the feat Quickdraw. Quickdraw is much better, especially with flasks of acid. Ask for help, both from DM and players - try to get the DM to roll individually for initiative, at least for groups. The more opponents roll for initiative, the greater the chance someone is still flatfooted on round 1(that a lot of LG DMs roll once is a major anti-Rogue element of LG). Players should hopefully provide flanks, render opponents flatfooted via spells, etc... Dip for damage, saves, feats, or the ability to confirm sneak. Don't dip for solely defensive abilities or dip so much that you lose too much damage. One easy way to make up for lost skill points, especially if you gain needed feats, is to take Tactile Trapfinder - most Rogues will end up with a 26 or so Dex, which is +6/+6 to Search/Disable Devices over a 14 Int. And I've said this before and I'll say it again - strongly consider Wizard 1/Unseen Seer 4 - it gets you Blink(auto sneak + defensive specials), False Life(sure you lose 5 hp, but you get 13.5 back), Grave/Golem Strike, Master's Touch, Critical Strike/Blades of Flame, access to Arcane Strike and CWI - list keeps going from there. Finally, watch where and when you go. Don't get yourself cut off from the rest of the party.
katrick 06-29-07, 03:13 PM	I've seen a high level rogue take down an APL 16 dragon while the fighter died from lack of hit points and the melee cleric was self buffing, in the first round, so it's either how you build them, how you play them or Spiked chain and staggering strike. katrick
Some_call_me_Tim 06-29-07, 06:13 PM	What class is hardest to find at the higher apls? Rogues. I think is in part due to module design; few modules require a rogue, they are usually written in such a way that any table can complete them (not that this is a bad thing but if success depended on having each of the archetypes you would see more). Second, is player aversion to letting the rogue do their thing. I've seen more players say "While to rogue sneaks forward for a recon I will follow behind her." "Oh about ten feet back." "My move silently is -9, why do you ask?" Or if you prefer, what role is needed more at high apls[?] I think this is a separate question. While rogues are the most scarce, I would say 'pure' tanks are the most needed. I've had a player claim their AC 19, 45 hp ranger is a 'tank' at 10th level. No, you maybe able to do good damage and avoid taking damage but you ain't gonna stand toe-to-toe with any CR10-12 creature with that. An AC 13 barbarian may be better suited than that ranger because he has the hp but he is still gonna get chewed apart and require lots of healing. Sure some cleric builds (with enough buffs) can fill in but they require resources and time to get going, meanwhile there isn't anyone to heal or buff the rest of the party. I've only seen a couple of real tanks (high hp, high AC fighters) that can a take a beating and keep on fighting. (disclaimer: I play a Dwarven Defender so I may be biased). Even just plain-Jane fighters seem scarce these days, the last Con I was at I was at three tables without a 'real' fighter. We had a couple of druids (one wildshape specialist, the other a summoner) to fill in as fighters. The only table we had a fighter-type at, we had was a high-damage dealing barbarian; while he did great taking out the bad guys, twice he had to be healed back before his rage ended just to keep him alive because of the low-AC. This sucks a significant amount of resources during/after combat to keep him up, while a 'true' tank could handle his own.
Some_call_me_Tim 06-29-07, 07:04 PM	no i have a +1 cold iron morning star with more HP then the fighter after i self buff.. (divine vigor+ bears endurance= 63 hps at lvl 5 and thast with no other buffs such as AID exct)[emphasis added]Not to pick on you control freak, but I find this reasoning all too often. While it is true you can buff yourself to take the place of a fighter (or nearly so). You have to spend two turns to do so. While on the third round you are ready to open up that proverbial can o' whoop-ass, the fighter has already charged in for one attack and full-attacked the second round and probably absorbed two or three attacks from the enemy. At a recent Con, a lot of people were surprised when I asked which spells they wanted my cleric to buff them with. It seems very rare the cleric who buffs other party members instead of self-buffing. You should see the blank looks I get when I offer to cast shield other on the squishy characters. We had a self-buffer along too. She was actually miffed that after two rounds of her self-buffing (I was casting prayer to help the entire party and turning undead the first two rounds ) that I had the nerve to cast dismissal on the demon she was about smack down and that I had wasted her spells. OK, you're welcome, I guess. While a self-buffing cleric can make a solid fighting type, he takes some preparation to do so. It also requires resources, namely spells. If you have time to cast short-term buffs before the encounter, they are great, but each round in combat that you are self-buffing, deprives the party of your services. So to bring it back on topic, there does seem to be some lack of the iconic cleric (healer/buffer) in general. That can be said of most of the archetypes to one degree or another. I find that in Living Greyhawk, a lot of players try to play several positions because they don't know who they might be sitting with so they figure they need to fill every niche that they can by themselves. It usually results in six individuals in a group rather than a cohesive team as each does their own thing.
Cardinal Teplin 06-29-07, 08:08 PM	There are some good points here, but the role you need the most at high APL must to some extent come down to what strategy you tend to persue at high level. My preferred approach revolves around slowing the enemy down, so some form of cork is invaluable, but ability to do large amounts of damage is more of a nice-to-have. I take it as a rule of thumb that if the monsters are in melee contact with anyone who is not a cork by round 2, then we're probably doing something wrong. The barbarian charging into melee in the surprise round clearly isn't a feature. So look at the team tactics. If you've got one guy charging, and one guy self buffing, then you have a coordination problem. You need to agree which one is doing the wrong thing for that particular table's collection of characters and players, but the right answer is going to change from table to table.
_metz_ 06-29-07, 10:23 PM	Really, Rogues aren't that difficult. The problem usually is that builds/players don't take what happens when they can't sneak into account at 1st level, then realize at higher APLs that being sneak attack immune is such a big problem. They also don't ask other players for help - a BDF doesn't need someone else to provide flanks or a caster to provide glitterdust. The rules of being a Rogue in LG: Never dump Strength unless you can guarantee damage without it. Especially for Charisma. A Rogue with 5 ranks in Bluff and Sense Motive is likely going to be just as good as any other Diplomat the party might have, even with an 8 Charisma. This is especially true for Archer Rogues who can probably get by as an 'archer' with a 16 Str, PBS/Precise Shot/Rapid Shot. Always make sure you can get a full attack off on round 1 if opponents are within 30' - you're likely going first and there'll never be an easier time to find flatfooted opponents. You can hold a bow or take the feat Quickdraw. Quickdraw is much better, especially with flasks of acid. Ask for help, both from DM and players - try to get the DM to roll individually for initiative, at least for groups. The more opponents roll for initiative, the greater the chance someone is still flatfooted on round 1(that a lot of LG DMs roll once is a major anti-Rogue element of LG). Players should hopefully provide flanks, render opponents flatfooted via spells, etc... Dip for damage, saves, feats, or the ability to confirm sneak. Don't dip for solely defensive abilities or dip so much that you lose too much damage. One easy way to make up for lost skill points, especially if you gain needed feats, is to take Tactile Trapfinder - most Rogues will end up with a 26 or so Dex, which is +6/+6 to Search/Disable Devices over a 14 Int. And I've said this before and I'll say it again - strongly consider Wizard 1/Unseen Seer 4 - it gets you Blink(auto sneak + defensive specials), False Life(sure you lose 5 hp, but you get 13.5 back), Grave/Golem Strike, Master's Touch, Critical Strike/Blades of Flame, access to Arcane Strike and CWI - list keeps going from there. Finally, watch where and when you go. Don't get yourself cut off from the rest of the party. I agree on all of this EXCEPT The Unseen Seer. (My Rogue has quickdraw etc) And is by no means useless. I do however REFUSE to be a wizard to play a rogue. A rogue ISN'T MEANT to be a wizard, and whilst SOME ARE one shouldn't HAVE to be a wizard in order to play one effectively. I feel the arguement 'why not take 1 wizard 4 unseens seer' REALLY bugs me. I actually am building up an unseen seer, but don't feel that a non caster rogue should be so ineffective by comparison. There SHOULD be feats/class abilities beyond 3rd level and prestige class options (full sneak progression for example) that offset the imbalance. That is the crux of my issue. Saying take unseen seer doesn't solve that. ;)
Mommy was an Orc 06-29-07, 11:57 PM	I do however REFUSE to be a wizard to play a rogue. A rogue ISN'T MEANT to be a wizard, and whilst SOME ARE one shouldn't HAVE to be a wizard in order to play one effectively. I feel the arguement 'why not take 1 wizard 4 unseens seer' REALLY bugs me. If you were an unseen seer, you wouldn't feel that way ;) I'm not saying a Rogue should necessarily have to take it, it just solves so many LG specific issues that mechanically speaking, it is suboptimal not to do so unless you're getting a lot back in return.
Majoru Oakheart 06-30-07, 12:33 AM	Gezz, sounds like someone doesn't like rogues. Actually, rogues are one of my favorite character types (I'm actually in the midst of trying to write a mod catered to rogues in particular). I say what I do because I've never seen an attempt to scout ahead that didn't end up with the rogue in question fighting an encounter by himself with the rest of the party not being able to arrive for 2-3 rounds (if they were close enough to know there was a combat and help at all). This is because the majority of rogues I've seen playing took their rogue role too far. They REALLY liked the idea of being a stealthy killer. A lot of them were new players, but some were veterans who just wanted to try the role of a rogue. So, all of them had the same idea...I sneak right past everyone and no one sees me. Most of them figured they didn't need cover to hide, they could just walk around when people's backs were turned. Other times they just overestimated the effectiveness of their sneak attack. They'd sneak into an area with an enemy and figure they could take out the enemy with a well placed sneak attack from surprise and they wouldn't even need the rest of the party. Then they died. As I mentioned, some of the problem with rogues is the players fault for not knowing how to play them. Others are situations in mods (doors and dungeons being the big one, lots of ancient temples with only undead, constructs and oozes being the other one) that work towards making it harder to be a pure rogue in LG.
GreatSiron 06-30-07, 01:10 AM	Actually, rogues are one of my favorite character types (I'm actually in the midst of trying to write a mod catered to rogues in particular). I say what I do because I've never seen an attempt to scout ahead that didn't end up with the rogue in question fighting an encounter by himself with the rest of the party not being able to arrive for 2-3 rounds (if they were close enough to know there was a combat and help at all). This is because the majority of rogues I've seen playing took their rogue role too far. They REALLY liked the idea of being a stealthy killer. A lot of them were new players, but some were veterans who just wanted to try the role of a rogue. So, all of them had the same idea...I sneak right past everyone and no one sees me. Most of them figured they didn't need cover to hide, they could just walk around when people's backs were turned. Other times they just overestimated the effectiveness of their sneak attack. They'd sneak into an area with an enemy and figure they could take out the enemy with a well placed sneak attack from surprise and they wouldn't even need the rest of the party. Then they died. As I mentioned, some of the problem with rogues is the players fault for not knowing how to play them. Others are situations in mods (doors and dungeons being the big one, lots of ancient temples with only undead, constructs and oozes being the other one) that work towards making it harder to be a pure rogue in LG. Ok, so that was the problem. Yeah, a lack of common sense can get a rogue killed faster than a blown hide roll. Sneaking isn't always about getting a surprise round, it's about being able to prep for the encounter. (Self-buffing, buffing the BDF, etc). Also, rogues that want to scout should ask for invisiblity, darkvision, and silence if they are avalable. (Also lesser telepathic bond if someone knows how to cast it). And don't do anything that could give yourself away, such as opening a door. Just listen closely to it, or if silence is up, just ignore it, move on, and come back when silence runs out. Another thing to remember is that some enemies can see thru steath, but you should be okay as long as you remain at a distance, and take off running should something notice you. While these tips won't work every time, they will increase your chance of not facing an encounter alone.
_metz_ 06-30-07, 02:12 AM	If you were an unseen seer, you wouldn't feel that way ;) I'm not saying a Rogue should necessarily have to take it, it just solves so many LG specific issues that mechanically speaking, it is suboptimal not to do so unless you're getting a lot back in return. Oh I am making an Unseen Seer. I couldn't resist when I saw how utterly awesome it was. NONETHELESS, a caster PrC doesn't solve the problems, it perpetuates them, by demonstrating again how the class is nerfed so much in LG, and often in general. I consider rogues to be a class that really have to be played by someone canny, they aren't like a fighter or a boomstick (I power attack or, I fireball) and you really have to use considerable tactical nuance to ake them work. Its part of my attraction to the class, however I feel that their base class does need work, not just to see it more in LG, but in general. On the issue of scouting, rogues aren't JUST for scouting, and can fulfill many other roles, when people think they are JUST scouts then that usually gets the rogue killed. (I tell the other person they can go trigger the encounter by themselves) BUT they can be useful in that role IF the situation asks for it in the module. Most modules don't. I plan on writing a very rogue based module as well, and I will be concentrating on more than just scouting and trapfinding, but place strong emphasis on bluffing, diplomacy, sneakiness, and the dingy side of things.
Mommy was an Orc 06-30-07, 11:19 AM	Oh I am making an Unseen Seer. I couldn't resist when I saw how utterly awesome it was. NONETHELESS, a caster PrC doesn't solve the problems, it perpetuates them, by demonstrating again how the class is nerfed so much in LG, and often in general. I consider rogues to be a class that really have to be played by someone canny, they aren't like a fighter or a boomstick (I power attack or, I fireball) and you really have to use considerable tactical nuance to ake them work. Its part of my attraction to the class, however I feel that their base class does need work, not just to see it more in LG, but in general. I definitely agree about that - the FAQ ruling alone on Alarm means they should update Rogues - it is criminal that a Rogue 20 can't detect an alarm spell without having to employ magic. Along the lines of your favorite superspy getting past laser beam triggered portculli, defeating a poison gas trap with a toothpick, and then getting caught by a $99 home burglar alarm. Probably Trap Sense should be upgraded into a general Dodge bonus at 6th level and they can detect magic on a Search check = spell level+25. And make any spell that triggers on an event considered a trap.
Munchausen 06-30-07, 11:50 AM	Hmm well here in the Pale (well the Las Vegas area) and also down in Phoenix.. it seems Bards are the hard to come by thing (yes I have seen many characters take just a dip in Bard, but not a full bard).. thats where my wife comes in.. her main is a Lvl 5 bard (I think the highest bard in vegas right now) and boy when it comes to apl 6's (and a few 4's she does) a group really wants her in the party (which means no one wants my scout/ranger, so I go play my low Knight/Favored Soul to work him up), which really dosent bother me cause we both know what a bard can do for a group. But I have not seen that many rogues (a few people have started them so maybe given time).. but yes it seems that mods are not designed for those who actually 'THINK' during a game and a person that has the ability to scout up ahead and return back to the group (you know the 'GAME' has to be done in 4 hrs type of rush rush so really no time to actually use some abilities on characters) which is why I like the LG home game compared to Cons or public play.. with home play you have more time.. where at cons you HAVE only X hrs to do the mod.. so lets all rush rush rush. So really its not that the book needs to be re-written, its just that people righting mods and DM's need to see that it is a party of 6 doing a mod.. not just hack n slash (and ohh boy we were in a mod that needed alot of arcane skills etc etc and well.. we did not have nothing arcane in our group.. really sucked)
draxynnic 07-01-07, 08:16 AM	Sometimes. Sometimes not. At high levels, in particular, where it's all about the full attack, it's not at all clear that "I self-buff as I move in, next round I'll full attack" gets resources into the front lines significantly slower than "I cast a buff on the fighter, he moves in and swings once, next round he'll full attack" The reason that clerics in particular may want to do the former is that their personal buffs tend to be a lot more powerful than anything they can cast on other people - buffed cleric + unbuffed fighter tends to put out more melee damage than unbuffed cleric + buffed fighter, given the same number of rounds to cast buff spells and a good choice of spells (of course it depends on the cleric: you need to have a certain amount of melee prowess to begin with). I don't think it's so true for bards, but I'm not that familiar with the bard spell list. *chuckles* Hence the "where possible" part. Obviously you can't put things like Divine Power, Righteous Might or Divine Favour on the fighter, but if it is possible to put a buff on someone else... (which can also depend on the situation. Move and self-buff is certainly better than move and do nothing, and move and putting a big self-only buff on yourself is often better than move and put a mediocre self-buff on a fighter, but you can get more bang for your buck by putting a buff on the fighter who's spent their spare action readying to hit than putting it on yourself and running out of actions for the round ;) )
Prof. Pacali 07-04-07, 10:18 PM	Actually, rogues are one of my favorite character types (I'm actually in the midst of trying to write a mod catered to rogues in particular). I may have to come up north for that mod and bring my rogue. My favorite mods are those that acknowledge the fact that rogues are supposed to be an iconic class, and allow them to do what they were designed for. There are a few mods here in Keoland that do that, and there was one Year five I played in Bissel (with the wrong character of course :) ). Core mods rarely demand a trapfinder, but those that do can be lethal to a party without one. I ran a still legal Core Mod twice at a convention this past January, said mod being laden with traps. Neither the APL 8 nor the APL 2 party had a dedicated trapfinder. (The APL 8 group had a guy who dipped into Rogue, but didn't max out search or disable device.) So yes rogues (and scouts and beguilers) are needed to handle the ocaissonal trap. The problem is that other than a few Adaptables, most mods don't have the trap on nearly every door common in home games, so parties figure they can beat the odds and do without a trapfinder. I say what I do because I've never seen an attempt to scout ahead that didn't end up with the rogue in question fighting an encounter by himself with the rest of the party not being able to arrive for 2-3 rounds (if they were close enough to know there was a combat and help at all). As I mentioned, some of the problem with rogues is the players fault for not knowing how to play them. Others are situations in mods (doors and dungeons being the big one, lots of ancient temples with only undead, constructs and oozes being the other one) that work towards making it harder to be a pure rogue in LG. Scouting is a big issue not least because many mods activate auto-surprise. Many mod authors don't know the rules for listen and spot checks (or diplomacy either, but that's another story). A well played, high level rogue, should be able to sneak behind enemy lines and come back. No opening doors, or stealing keys, or getting into riddle contests, or trying to be a lone hero. Instead they should be counting the enemy, gathering enough info that the party can choose buffs and draw up a strategy. Unfortunately many times when I offer to do just that, the party vetoes my suggestion. Or the mod won't let me scout, because the author didn't consider that someone might want to see where the orcs are and count them. That's what irks me. There are a few solutions. A radical one would be for the designers of 4E to take this into account, and give the rogue more power. Bonus feats like weapon finesse or point blank shot, or the ability to reroll disable device checks and take the worse result, might help. So would adopting the SECR's skill system. In the meantime, mod authors should allow certain actions like scouting. I've seen mods that have suggestions for the spells augury, scrying, and contact other plane, but that don't let you sneak up on the enemy. Players of rogues need to figure out what they want to do outside of combat, which is really what the class is designed for. Rogues have other skills besides hide and move silently that almost never get used, like appraise and forgery. If they have ranks in spot they can read lips, and if they have ranks in bluff they can send secret messages (another area where no one remembers the rules). Here are my suggestions for rogues: 1) max out a certain number of skills, rather than try to be a jack-of-all-trades-and-master-of-none. Gather information and diplomacy often unlock mods, bluff can get you sneak attack damage, and UMD is there for when you have no casters in the party (which is more often than it should be in LG). 2) Don't be a hero. You are squishy, and the party won't try to protect you as much as the arcane caster, or heal you during combat as much as the BDF. Tumble is your friend, charging is your enemy. 3) When fighting undead, constructs, plants, and folks wearing Greater Fortification armor, have a back up trick to do. Holy water, alchemist's fire, acid, and a +5 weapon to attack that damn Greater Fortification armor help. If you don't have any, try to aid another. The DM will often ignore you if you do nothing but succesfully aid another (note the word often). 4) If all else fails, distract the enemy with bluff, and then hide, until an oppurtunity presents itself. If you are supposed to destroy some MacGuffin, sneak away and do that, while the rest of the party holds off the undead hordes. If the enemy has a necklace or trinket, use sleight of hand to steal it from him. Just let the party know about this in advance. Someone promised me a cookie. I'm still waiting. :)
solbergb 07-05-07, 12:42 PM	Scouting is a big issue not least because many mods activate auto-surprise. Many mod authors don't know the rules for listen and spot checks (or diplomacy either, but that's another story). Actually most mods are silent, it is the GM/Judge running the game that usually is either ignorant of the rules or is too lazy to do the prep necessary to know what the spot/listen/hide/move silent+special abilities of the bad guys are - they just plunk the monsters down on the map and "spawn" them like a CRPG. Every case of autosurprise where I read the mod later, the mod didn't say one way or another, it just said what the bad guys would TRY to do. I've had pretty good luck using alertness skills to spot ambushes before they happen and scouting to allow party to buff/prep before getting into a fight. You've got to be careful and brisk about scouting to avoid consuming a lot of precious out-of-game time and you need the party in "call for help" distance if you do get unlucky and get in over your head. Generally though, the only scouts that bring the encounter down on themeselves are the once that don't go back and report what they found to the party, but instead try to win alone. Even if they do, a good scout should start the encounter at range and have the mobility to turn it into a chase scene, where the pursuers run smack into the party, which will then proceed to buzz-saw the enemy with unexpected resistance.
Some_call_me_Tim 07-05-07, 01:17 PM	Actually most mods are silent, it is the GM/Judge running the game that usually is either ignorant of the rules or is too lazy to do the prep necessary to know what the spot/listen/hide/move silent+special abilities of the bad guys are - they just plunk the monsters down on the map and "spawn" them like a CRPG.I have to agree that it is seldom the module that says "auto surprise." I have indeed seen the judge negate stealth, but I often find it is the other players at the table that stop it. Some from an over-riding fear of never splitting the party and some from not wanting someone else's character to have the limelight. I've been a more than one table with a very sneaky rogue (+20ish move silent, +30ish hide) wants to scout ahead, only to have the BDF in full plate mail (-5 move silently/hide) demand to follow 10' behind to "help." At a large number of tables we get the "don't split the party" whiners. When the rogue was actually allowed to scout ahead we were well prepared for what we faced. Yes, a couple of times the rogue was in hot water because of a clumsy attempt at sneaking but as long as the rogue knows when to exercise the better part of valor all usually works out for the best. We've even used it as a ploy to set an ambush to kill the rogue's pursuers (generally not recommended).
solbergb 07-05-07, 03:08 PM	I find the best antidode to "don't split the party" is to put them at X distance behind me where "X" is their move silent score with a take 10 vs mine with a take 10. That usually means they're one or two actions from "helping", less if I'm running toward the party. They feel they're contributing (and they are, actually) without messing up the scout. Even if the party gets heard (eg, silenced scout, party at some distance behind), the bad guys prepare for the PARTY, not the scout. When the scout reports back, the party is also ready, and both sides are now in a kind of "we're both buffing, who makes the first move" standoff, or sometimes for the bad guys, they blow buffs that run out if the party takes a long time deciding what to do about the situation and the bad guys aren't confident enough to leave their ambush spot once buffs are up.
Nutation 07-05-07, 03:39 PM	Scouting is a big issue not least because many mods activate auto-surprise. A related problem is the tripwire: As written, the party comes upon an encounter just as the crisis occurs - the noble is being assassinated, the torch goes into the haystack, etc. The writer's expectation is that the party as a whole is within one move, or at least LOS, of the crisis and has 4-6 standard actions to do things. When a judge triggers the scripted actions for a scouting rogue, that one PC may not have the resources or durability to address the problem in time. On the other hand, a judge who takes account of the advance scout has to make up actions prior to the scripted events. Maybe the scout can solve the problem himself at that point (if only by hollering "look out!"). That doesn't bother me, though some players will probably be irked. It can get messy, though, in terms of plot mechanics. For example, this amount of judge flexibility allows interaction with unstatted NPCs who were supposed to be glimpsed only fleetingly before dying or getting away.
ithardin 07-05-07, 06:29 PM	*smiling at all the rogue love he is reading* I play a 10th level high skills rogue/swash/suel arcanamach with a high intelligence. He also carries a cold iron, pitspawned, magebane greatsword (Daddy loves the Bandit Kingdoms) and a sacred shortsword. A rogue with high UMD can RUIN a bad guy's day :) Case(s) in point: During a CRAZY encounter while playing, a wizard thought he had his beefy guys keeping him safe. One gaseous form scroll and two rounds later and I appear behind him and he eats 6d6... Hamatulas HATE when they keep screwing up their 50% miss chance against a blinking rogue with a sacred short sword...take 5d6 each attack :) Ian p.s. I also have a straight cleric who only fights if he has too...which is sometimes hard to do because he is a Dwarf wearing Adamantine heavy plate with a magic warhammer!
Mattastrophic 07-05-07, 06:49 PM	My first character is currently an elven Rog8/Ftr2/ChampionOfCorellon2, and man, this guy is so much fun to play. He's got Expertise, Mounted Combat, Spring Attack, Tumble, with an Elven Thinblade... the entire swashbuckling hero package. He deals with combat by using Spring Attack to harass the enemy, with Expertise to crank his AC really high to draw enemy fire; then when he's got the flank set up, he cranks down his AC and cranks up the damage on a full-attack. It's tons of fun to outmaneuver and outthink his opponents, and I get to taunt the badguys while he's corked up. -Matt
_metz_ 07-05-07, 07:46 PM	Yeah Mine is an 8 Rogue/1 Dread Pirate. He did 20d6 plus static damage plus special weapon damage to a dragon yesterday. It was a good thing too cos the Dragon was way over EL for the module... (APL+5) The character will end up with: 10-13 levels of rogue, and maybe a level of either scarlet corsair OR legendary captain. (To go with the Dread Pirate for character reasons)
control freak 07-05-07, 08:47 PM	i know that dragon!!!! and whats funny is it is technecaly CG alignment :P also as for hardest to find at high APLS my new vote goes to cleric, but then again thats my store (of 50 or so people that play) we have 2 clerics and 4 druids and bearly manage to make it through mods
_metz_ 07-07-07, 12:01 AM	i know that dragon!!!! and whats funny is it is technecaly CG alignment :P also as for hardest to find at high APLS my new vote goes to cleric, but then again thats my store (of 50 or so people that play) we have 2 clerics and 4 druids and bearly manage to make it through mods There are often High level clerics, but mid range and low level clerics are rare in my experience.
Frumpkis 07-07-07, 01:32 AM	Of course, all this varies by region and by LG 'generation'. For example, the guys who've been playing LG since Year 1 might've had a lot of divines for their primary PCs, so for their secondaries they decide to make more melee types, with the result being that there's a dearth of clerics among the 'second generation' PCs.
solbergb 07-07-07, 10:11 AM	Yeah. Burke's "Generation" had so many clerics that he encountered PC arcane exactly twice between levels 1 and 8. A typical party was 3-4 clerics and Burke, with maybe a barbarian or mutt-melee joining in. My archer's "generation" by contrast quite often doesn't have a cleric at all, and we rely more on detecting and killing the enemy at range (interposing summoned critters, animal companion and battlefield control from his druidic daughter) and healing out of combat. Our other characters advance slowly enough that they miss the generations that pass through - their experience of clerics is somewhat random (but about every fourth character my wife or I play is a cleric or medic/support) There's regional variation too. Some regions favor or disfavor certain classes and that is reflected in character type numbers.
draxynnic 07-08-07, 08:10 AM	I've noticed this myself. You have a lack of one particular class - say, clerics - and all of a sudden they're a dime a dozen... at the generation 'below' where the problem was noted. Then the generation after that is lacking again because everyone just made a cleric and they don't want to make another one... Eventually, though, I've noted that those second-gen clerics seem to diffuse - some shoot straight up to the high APLs, some muddle along at approximately the same rate as the rest of the second-gen characters, while some lag behind for whatever reason to get picked up in later generations. "Eventually" does translate to "several years" however...
Iswald 07-09-07, 12:10 AM	I find the best antidode to "don't split the party" is to put them at X distance behind me where "X" is their move silent score with a take 10 vs mine with a take 10. That usually means they're one or two actions from "helping", less if I'm running toward the party. They feel they're contributing (and they are, actually) without messing up the scout. Even if the party gets heard (eg, silenced scout, party at some distance behind), the bad guys prepare for the PARTY, not the scout. When the scout reports back, the party is also ready, and both sides are now in a kind of "we're both buffing, who makes the first move" standoff, or sometimes for the bad guys, they blow buffs that run out if the party takes a long time deciding what to do about the situation and the bad guys aren't confident enough to leave their ambush spot once buffs are up. Not splitting the party is one of the main reasons I see against rogues scouting, unless they have great skill modifiers, invisibility or other special abilities. I do wonder why more tables don't just wait when they know the bad guy is around the corner. If they spend 2 minutes watching then start casting buffing spells, most of the BBEG's short duration spells will have ended. A mod I ran a week ago, had a party of 4 high level casters. Three of them were mutts or playing up (APL 12). The group really struggled a lot because they didn't have appropriate spells. In one encounter, their tank, who was the cleric, went down because of sneak attacks. If they'd had a high level barbarian or rogue with uncanny dodge, they'd have been able to overcome the bad guys without so much difficulty.
_metz_ 07-09-07, 03:36 AM	Not splitting the party is one of the main reasons I see against rogues scouting, unless they have great skill modifiers, invisibility or other special abilities. I do wonder why more tables don't just wait when they know the bad guy is around the corner. If they spend 2 minutes watching then start casting buffing spells, most of the BBEG's short duration spells will have ended. A mod I ran a week ago, had a party of 4 high level casters. Three of them were mutts or playing up (APL 12). The group really struggled a lot because they didn't have appropriate spells. In one encounter, their tank, who was the cleric, went down because of sneak attacks. If they'd had a high level barbarian or rogue with uncanny dodge, they'd have been able to overcome the bad guys without so much difficulty. We snapped an encounter this weekend as my rogue wandered nearby, rolled a stupid spot/hide/move silently, then went back, told the fellas what we were up against, then we went in fully buffed with a surprise round and slaughtered the APL+3 encounter. Sometimes scouting can work really well, it depends if your DM knows the rules, and your rogue type is actually a decent scout.
solbergb 07-09-07, 12:45 PM	tank going down by sneak attacks in a party with four casters. None of them had an obscuring mist scroll? *smacks head*
Iswald 07-10-07, 11:52 AM	tank going down by sneak attacks in a party with four casters. None of them had an obscuring mist scroll? *smacks head* In the forums, I hear you and a few others mention that you use quite a few consumables. However, not many players that I play with actually use much in the way of consumables except wands of CLW or lesser vigor. At low levels, they may have a few potions. Several of my characters have alchemicals but, they don't seem to get used. The first con I attended, one player had crafted a dozen, maybe more, wands that he handed out for the battle interactive. I don't think there were many takers, having a lack of arcane types that day. What the party should have done is start casting dispel magic. One of the players thought they were fighting monks though, and it got into all the player's heads (they seemed to ignore the sneak attacks). I'm glad they didn't use dispels though, since that'd have created more work for me. :) The set up was actually more complex than it may seem from the posts I've made.
Cardinal Teplin 07-10-07, 01:33 PM	tank going down by sneak attacks in a party with four casters. None of them had an obscuring mist scroll? *smacks head* Wouldn't casting obscuring mist encourage the sneak attackers to go after the casters instead? Using the concealment you've so nicely provided? I can see that it might be _one_ option... but depending on how you envisage the set up, it may not be a good one. It certainly isn't as clear-cut as you seem to be making out.
bitznarf 07-10-07, 03:13 PM	They might attack the casters, but they would be unable to sneak attack due to the concealment provided by the spell. Unless they had some way to ignore concealment or something.
solbergb 07-10-07, 09:53 PM	In the forums, I hear you and a few others mention that you use quite a few consumables. However, not many players that I play with actually use much in the way of consumables except wands of CLW or lesser vigor. Well...maybe getting their rear handed to them will teach them than an occasional 25gp scroll is worth the money. There is a difference between HAVING The consumables and USING them on a regular basis. I don't run into that many encounters where the main source of damage is sneak attack, but for those, I do reach for the smokesticks or obscuring mist scrolls if people are getting creamed. Just as any caster that can cast silence, has a scroll of silence after level 4ish. Sure thing counterspell is too good to not have. It's not like I'm asking them to bust out a dim door scroll or dust of dissapearance or something. 25gp is nothing at the levels we were discussing. Heck, it's hardly anything even at level 2. Obviously without knowing the setup it's hard to say, but when a "tank cleric" gets overwhelmed with sneak attacks, slapping a concealment miss chance on him seems like an obvious tactic (if they're blindsight rogues people, cast silence perhaps....it works on grimlocks anyway. If it is a dragon rogue, well, ok. But I suspect then the sneak attack is the least of your problems)
control freak 07-10-07, 11:25 PM	or you could just prepair 1 per day of needed spells...
solbergb 07-11-07, 11:33 AM	Not all casters are prep casters. Spont casters really shouldn't take spells that are as effective on a 25gp scroll as in their head unless they have some other pressing reason why (not enough hands free or actions free to manipulate scrolls and somatic components perhaps - my favored soul has found scrolls awkward since he also likes his heavy shield and weapons, whereas freeing up one hand to cast a spell isn't so hard)
UMiskatonic 07-11-07, 01:18 PM	Maybe true for a melee-oriented favored soul. However a sorceror or a bard should have a free hand to grab that utility scroll.
solbergb 07-11-07, 08:52 PM	Yeah. My favored soul is the first char I've noticed it with (my cleric uses a buckler, and has a hand free to hold a scroll). I'm actually thinking of shifting his spell selection a bit as a result of not being able to access key scrolls as easily.