Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Wraith235 11-27-07, 08:48 PM	so I have a Healer Cohort for my Paladin PC ... Human 5th level Feats Human Bonus - Augment Healing Level 1 Magic of the Land Level 3 I haven't Decided on yet ... tho I am thinking Spontanious healing I'm heading to Brookfest tomorrow night ... so Tell me what you think :-)
Mattastrophic 11-27-07, 10:24 PM	Ah, just go with Cleric and take: -Augment Healing -Extra Turning -Divine Ward And he'll be superior to any Healer. I guess Spontaneous Healer would be necessary if you stuck with Healer, though. -Matt
Wraith235 11-27-07, 11:15 PM	Main Reason for picking this up as a Cohort is the 1 Cleric We have in our Home Group is a Non Healing Raidiant Cheesegrater so the Turning is Taken care of but thanks you pretty much answered my quiestion since I havent yet got access to Close Wounds
JamesMaissen 11-28-07, 04:32 AM	Main Reason for picking this up as a Cohort is the 1 Cleric We have in our Home Group is a Non Healing Raidiant Cheesegrater so the Turning is Taken care of but thanks you pretty much answered my quiestion since I havent yet got access to Close Wounds His point is still valid. A cleric will make a better healer than a healer. That you have someone dedicated to turning already just means that you can afford to burn them using divine ward without much fear. -James
MwaO 11-28-07, 10:15 AM	Main Reason for picking this up as a Cohort is the 1 Cleric We have in our Home Group is a Non Healing Raidiant Cheesegrater so the Turning is Taken care of but thanks you pretty much answered my quiestion since I havent yet got access to Close Wounds The real problem with Healer is that you don't always need healing, but you want support or you'll end up needing a lot of healing. We have a Radiant Servant Healbot Cohort in our party - she casts Recitation, Bless, Align Weapon, etc... Also, you can't have a cohort at 5th level - the prereq is being 6th level.
delewobmesid 11-28-07, 10:56 AM	a Healing Co-hort I've been happy with Human Cleric of Lydia 6/Radiant Servant 3, Domains Travel & Sun 10,8,13+1,12,15+1,14 feats in order; Augmented Healing, Extra Turning, Divine Ward, Sacred Healing, Domain Spontantity Travel It's nice having a cleric co-hort with teleport and dimensional door.
Wraith235 11-28-07, 01:08 PM	The real problem with Healer is that you don't always need healing, but you want support or you'll end up needing a lot of healing. We have a Radiant Servant Healbot Cohort in our party - she casts Recitation, Bless, Align Weapon, etc... Also, you can't have a cohort at 5th level - the prereq is being 6th level. the Cohort is 5th Level I am 7th
Sieylianna 11-28-07, 05:14 PM	Magic of the land isn't going to do much for you at 1st level. I wouldn't pick it up before 6th level at the earliest. I agree that if you have a radiant servant in the party, a healer isn't going to do anything for you. If you want extra healing, but not a cleric, take a druid or even a favored soul. Ed
RtrnofdMax 11-28-07, 05:44 PM	You can't take magic of the land at 1st anyways because it requires 5 ranks in a number of skills. Take spontaneous healing at lvl1 and magic of land at 3rd (or 6th as has been suggested).
JamesMaissen 11-28-07, 06:25 PM	a Healing Co-hort I've been happy with Human Cleric of Lydia 6/Radiant Servant 3, Domains Travel & Sun 10,8,13+1,12,15+1,14 feats in order; Augmented Healing, Extra Turning, Divine Ward, Sacred Healing, Domain Spontantity Travel It's nice having a cleric co-hort with teleport and dimensional door. If we're talking what cohorts we suggest you pick up then let me suggest taking the above and modifying it for your needs. I would start by changing the deity to allow for the Destiny domain and getting domain spont online by 6th. Between the destiny reroll for another PC at the table and spont cast delay deaths the cohort will be felt and loved. As you have a radiant servant taking someone with the Sun domain is not all that needed and the spells on the list are mostly not that great. -James
Iswald 11-29-07, 04:37 AM	The real problem with Healer is that you don't always need healing, but you want support or you'll end up needing a lot of healing. In which case it's a good thing you had a healer cohort!
MwaO 11-29-07, 04:13 PM	In which case it's a good thing you had a healer cohort! When the character's inability to take an effective action is the reason you end up needing healing, no it isn't. The easy example is what happens when the cohort rolls really high on initiative, goes first, then the BBEG, and then the party. You don't need healing at that point, but if that BBEG is a caster, the Cleric Cohort readies Silence. The BBEG is a Bone Devil, he casts Align Weapon on the BDF. Not certain? Toss a Recitation or Prayer or some other spell. That doesn't even get into the problem of Insignia of Healing and Healer's 4th level spell list. i.e. some of the Healer's best spells are 4th level, but because they can't spontaneous cure, it competes with Mass CLW. Because they don't get Insignia of Healing, they actually need to consider Mass CLW.
Iswald 11-30-07, 04:55 AM	There are useful spells for healers to cast on the first round. A proactive mass vigor, calm emotions, freedom of movement or healing lorecall. The options are certainly limited. To say they have no options is untrue. If they want to spontaneously cast healing spells, there is a way to do that too.
Mattastrophic 11-30-07, 09:29 AM	There are useful spells for healers to cast on the first round. A proactive mass vigor, calm emotions, freedom of movement or healing lorecall. The options are certainly limited. To say they have no options is untrue. If they want to spontaneously cast healing spells, there is a way to do that too. Mass Vigor: Terrible spell in-combat. In-combat requires spike-healing, not slow regeneration. Calm Emotions: Too unreliable. Freedom of Movement: Best when used reactively through Divine Ward. Healers can't do that. Healing Lorecall: Should be up all day, not cast in-combat. Combines well with Insignia of Healing, which Healers can't do. Yes, they can spontaneously cast healing spells, at the cost of a feat, and even then a limited number times per day. In short, everything a Healer can do a Cleric can do better. Even down to AC, BAB, offense, and saves. -Matt
MwaO 11-30-07, 10:34 AM	Mass Vigor: Terrible spell in-combat. In-combat requires spike-healing, not slow regeneration. In short, everything a Healer can do a Cleric can do better. Even down to AC, BAB, offense, and saves. Mass Lesser Vigor isn't a horrible spell for a PC Healer in combat. With say an 18 Charisma at APL 6 and Augment Healing, they'll end up healing 9 hp on the 1st round they cast it with a 2nd level spell choice. But that doesn't help the Healer who goes first before any damage has happened. But there are the three problems for a Cohort: He's not a PC who can easily pick up a starting stat of 16 in Charisma and 15 Wisdom. He probably has a 13-14 Charisma and 15 Wisdom. He's not a PC with the cash to buy stat items. And he needs the +2 Wisdom Item to get a bonus 4th level spell at 7th(APL 8-10) He's not 6th level until APL 8 and he's only got a 14 Charisma or so - 9 hp base at APL 6 is a spike. 7 hp base at APL 8 is slow regeneration...
KarmaInferno 11-30-07, 03:11 PM	Mass Lesser Vigor isn't a horrible spell for a PC Healer in combat. It is, and it isn't. It certainly isn't going to be able to keep up with incoming damage at higher levels. However, upwards of a few points of healing every round is nothing to sneeze at. The Vigor family of spells are best viewed in-combat as a buffer, like temporary hit points, not as a source of primary healing. With Vigor in place, nobody needs to worry about stabilizing folks if they drop below zero. They can also ease the decision-making for clerics as they try to prioritize what to do each round. If you know that a party member is automatically stable and will probably be back on his feet in a round or so, you might be able to take other actions besides rushing around trying to keep folks alive. My high level cleric often throws a Vigor spell at the start of a combat, especially if the DM allows Healthful Rest (yes, expect table variation) to affect it. That's up to 6 points of party healing every round, which isn't a bad thing to have. Combined with a Delay Death, it can mean even in a TPK the party isn't just gone. I recall a real nasty knock down drag out fight where I had Chain Delay Death and Vigorous Circle up. If not for them, we would have been probably perma-dead, as the fight was in a pocket dimension. The entire party was in the negatives several times, with me popping back into positive hit points just long enough to get off a Heal here and there to keep the damage dealers going. As it was, we simply out-lasted the bad guy because those few hit points kept us going each round. -karma
Mattastrophic 11-30-07, 03:54 PM	Mass Lesser Vigor isn't a horrible spell for a PC Healer in combat. Heh, I thought he was talking about Vigorous Circle. Mass Lesser Vigor at APL 6, sure, why not. I'd do an Insignia instead, but that's just me. Vigorous Circle in-combat at APL 12 (14 since it's a cohort), that's just terrible. Should've memorized Heal, so you could cast it on the guy who's down a hundred hp instead. Or if the whole party's damaged, Mass Cure Serious (6th for a Healer) is way better, as 95% of the time the combat won't last long enough for Vigorous Circle to outheal Mass Cure Light, much less Mass Cure Serious. -Matt
Iswald 12-02-07, 02:26 PM	Mass lesser vigor is only a second level spell for healers. It competes with close wounds and not insignia of healing (which they don't have anyway). It would only be used to stabilize during combat. Casting it the first round may not help with healing, though area spells from box text... It all depends upon what level is being discussed with the whole range coming up in different replies.
CdrcJsn 12-03-07, 04:49 PM	Vigorous Circle is 5th level for a Healer, so it isn't bad. Assuming 18 charisma and augment healing, at 9th level, you heal a total of 71 points to each of four targets which isn't bad for a 5th level slot. Mass cure moderate (also 5th level for healers) heals for an average of 32 to each target at 9th. Remember that the bonus damage from Augment Healing can be applied at any point, not just the first round the spell is cast. You can choose to have it come in on the 3rd or 4th round to get the most benefit if you want. 17 points of healing in one round when nobody is in serious trouble but a little hurt is not a bad move even at APL12, especially combined with fast healing 3 for the rest of the combat. If the Healer has a Rod of Extend (fairly cheap), the healing goes up to 128 points of healing over time.
CdrcJsn 12-03-07, 04:55 PM	In short, everything a Healer can do a Cleric can do better. Even down to AC, BAB, offense, and saves. -Matt But do clerics get a pretty horsie? I don't think so! Cedric PS I disagree with Matt about the usefulness of Healers. They have weaknesses, but you just have to learn to play around those and emphasize their strengths instead.
MwaO 12-03-07, 07:27 PM	Remember that the bonus damage from Augment Healing can be applied at any point, not just the first round the spell is cast. You can choose to have it come in on the 3rd or 4th round to get the most benefit if you want. That's not what the FAQ suggests on that exact topic - it says you should have it apply in the 1st round...and I think that's because the sage is suggesting that as a choice between having it apply over the entire spell or happening all at once. I certainly wouldn't allow someone to choose which round Augment Healing would apply - there's nothing in the language of the feat that implies that.
Mattastrophic 12-03-07, 07:33 PM	But do clerics get a pretty horsie? I don't think so! Cedric PS I disagree with Matt about the usefulness of Healers. They have weaknesses, but you just have to learn to play around those and emphasize their strengths instead. I was wondering when you'd chime in... Cedric, if you have as much success with your Healer as you did with your Bard, that'd be very awesome. Also, a well-built and well-played Healer is definitely superior to a poorly-built and/or poorly-played Cleric. -Matt loves seeing odd classes work out.
CdrcJsn 12-04-07, 01:13 PM	That's not what the FAQ suggests on that exact topic - it says you should have it apply in the 1st round...and I think that's because the sage is suggesting that as a choice between having it apply over the entire spell or happening all at once. I certainly wouldn't allow someone to choose which round Augment Healing would apply - there's nothing in the language of the feat that implies that. "What effect does the Augment Healing feat (Complete Divine, page 79) have on lesser vigor (Complete Divine, page 186) and similar spells? Augment Healing adds twice the spell’s level to the total healing it provides. The simplest method is to have the spell apply the extra healing to the first round of fast healing. Thus, lesser vigor (a 1st-level spell) would cure an extra 2 hp of damage in the first round, for a total of 3 hit points. Each round thereafter it would heal the normal 1 hp of damage. Mass lesser vigor (a 3rd-level spell) would cure an extra 6 hp of damage to each target in the first round (for a total of 7 hit points), and would heal 1 hp of damage each round thereafter as normal." Doesn't exactly contradict the circle ruling from 2004 given on the Living Greyhawk yahoogroup: "Augmented healing works like I stated it does. The modifier given by the feat augmented healing is added to the total healed by the spell. When is up to the individual DM, though preference seems to apply it to the first round." Lots of people won't remember the second ruling though since it's old and not in the LGCS. Your mileage may vary. I find the FAQ answer rather annoying. It is telling us "the simplest method" is the way outlined rather than saying it's the only way, causing this sort of confusion. It's not exactly game breaking so I allow variance on when the bonus applies at my tables, but won't insist on my point of view when I'm playing at another table where a judge thinks otherwise. I just make sure to ask ahead of time to avoid surprises.
CdrcJsn 12-04-07, 01:33 PM	The quote I gave above came from the Sunndi list by Creighton(?) Here's a link in the Living Greyhawk yahoogroup of someone who asked Steve Conforti, a circle rep the same question. http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/Living_Greyhawk/message/68673 Again though, the most recent FAQ says "the simplest way" is to apply it to the first round. Whether that is definitive or merely a suggestion will surely get table variation and people shouldn't be surprised to find either interpretation used.
MwaO 12-04-07, 03:51 PM	Doesn't exactly contradict the circle ruling from 2004 given on the Living Greyhawk yahoogroup: "Augmented healing works like I stated it does. The modifier given by the feat augmented healing is added to the total healed by the spell. When is up to the individual DM, though preference seems to apply it to the first round." Lots of people won't remember the second ruling though since it's old and not in the LGCS. I'm not sure how that applies to your ruling either. What Steve Conforti is saying that the when is up to the DM, not the player. And the preference is for the 1st round. I'd really like to see a rules quote that implies that a player has a say in picking the round. Your mileage may vary. I find the FAQ answer rather annoying. It is telling us "the simplest method" is the way outlined rather than saying it's the only way, causing this sort of confusion. I don't think it is that confusing - there are two logical ways to interpret Augment Healing - it adds spell level * 2 to the healing done by a spell. You could either choose to have it happen immediately or over the life of the spell. Over the life of the spell involves annoying bookkeeping, so I can see why the 1st is the simplest.
Wraith235 12-04-07, 09:20 PM	well its not going to be an issue as I decided to go with Magic of the land and then when I leveled decided to Retrain my Cohort and went with dodge as the 6th lvl feat an Combat casting as the lvl 3 Retrained feat (from magic of the land so I can get him into Combat Medic from HoB
CdrcJsn 12-05-07, 05:10 PM	well its not going to be an issue as I decided to go with Magic of the land and then when I leveled decided to Retrain my Cohort and went with dodge as the 6th lvl feat an Combat casting as the lvl 3 Retrained feat (from magic of the land so I can get him into Combat Medic from HoB Just keep in mind that you need to make a skill check to use that feat succesfully and you lose the spell if you fail. I can't recall offhand if the skill required is on the Healer class list (I recall no, but I'm not positive).
CdrcJsn 12-05-07, 05:14 PM	I'd really like to see a rules quote that implies that a player has a say in picking the round. "When is up to the individual DM, though preference seems to apply it to the first round." Some judges can choose "when" to be whenever the player wishes to apply it. It's a very lenient ruling I know so don't expect all (or many) judges to rule that way, but I hardly see something like this game breaking so I tend to rule on the side of players in gray areas. Best bet is to just print out the relevant rulings, present the choices to your judge, ask your judge how he's gonna rule, and go with that. You will get table variation on this unless you play with the same judge all the time.
MwaO 12-05-07, 05:57 PM	"When is up to the individual DM, though preference seems to apply it to the first round." Some judges can choose "when" to be whenever the player wishes to apply it. That's not a rules quote. That's making a ruling on an interpretation, which may not even be considering your position as a possibility. Along the lines of when questionnaires ask you how you earn income, they don't ask if you rob banks.
CdrcJsn 12-05-07, 07:45 PM	The first line of that sentence indicates preference, implying multiple choices. You are only seeing two (apply first round or apply evenly throughout the spell). Your second interpretation is also not mentioned, so is as equally shaky as my interpretation. Given that only one option is given (apply at beginning), yet implies that there is a choice, it means that we have to explore all the choices and see which one makes the most sense. The decision is ultimately up to the judge. The only thing the player can do is present him the choices, of which "apply when you wish" is one that I consider valid, yet I recognize that others may not (which apparently includes you). If you want a more definitive list ("these are the things you can choose from when using Augment Healing with the Vigor spell line..."), then you will be disappointed since there isn't one. This is a grey area and the decision falls to the judge. It doesn't matter how I (or you for that matter) might rule when we're judging...all that matters is what the judge at your table thinks.
Mattastrophic 12-05-07, 08:26 PM	Remember that, as per Britt Frey, the Circle only makes rulings in the LGCS and in Dispel Confusion. So in all reality, we only have the FAQ to work with. -Matt
CdrcJsn 12-05-07, 09:27 PM	Remember that, as per Britt Frey, the Circle only makes rulings in the LGCS and in Dispel Confusion. So in all reality, we only have the FAQ to work with. -Matt That's exactly the problem. The FAQ says "Augment Healing adds twice the spell’s level to the total healing it provides. The simplest method is to have the spell apply the extra healing to the first round of fast healing. " The first sentence says what the feat does. The second gives a recommendation as to the "simplest" option to rule how that goes. Simplest implies a choice to me. Maybe not to others though. Again, I never argue about this combo. Even if a judge only allows the first combo, it's still a useful spell/feat. Certainly less broken than allowing fast healing = natural healing that I've seen used around. In the end, that's pretty much how I gauge how I rule on things I see as grey areas if I'm judging. If I'm playing, I just go with how the judge rules.
MwaO 12-05-07, 09:29 PM	The first line of that sentence indicates preference, implying multiple choices. You are only seeing two (apply first round or apply evenly throughout the spell). Your second interpretation is also not mentioned, so is as equally shaky as my interpretation. Two does not represent a single choice. Not to mention, over the life of the spell does not necessarily mean evenly. There are at least 3 possibilities for that(evenly, at the beginning, but not all at once, or at the beginning and end) It is also nowhere near as shaky as yours. My 2nd one has a reasonable basis in the rules - Augment Healing heals an extra X damage. Vigors heal Y damage over Z rounds. (X+Y)/Z per round is a reasonable, complicated way to interpret that. Y/Z per round + X on the 1st round is also reasonable and straightforward. But that's the other reason it isn't as shaky as yours. We only know that there is a simple way of doing things(make it happen in the 1st round) and therefore a more complicated way of doing things. (X+Y)/Z is complicated - how does one resolve when adding say 2 hp to a Lesser Vigor? Which of the 11-15 rounds should it add? Rounds 1 and 2? 1 and 15? 1 and a middle round? Your way is not complicated. It is simple. As simple as just choosing to have it go off in the 1st round. Unless the Sage somehow thought that was complex, we know he didn't consider your option even as a possibility.
CdrcJsn 12-05-07, 09:40 PM	Your way is not complicated. It is simple. As simple as just choosing to have it go off in the 1st round. Unless the Sage somehow thought that was complex, we know he didn't consider your option even as a possibility. /shrug Maybe it's just my point of view then. I just remember the time when the combo first came out and there was no FAQ. The option I outlined was one of the ways it was interpreted based on Circle member comments on the yahoogroups. Matt is right though and that those aren't really authoritative. Those who have come into the campaign within the past two years or so have only been exposed to the FAQ ruling so don't have that history ("back in my day we didn't have these newfangled ARs granting access...we got little slips of paper and we liked it!" - well, not really)
Iswald 12-05-07, 11:17 PM	Two does not represent a single choice. Not to mention, over the life of the spell does not necessarily mean evenly. There are at least 3 possibilities for that(evenly, at the beginning, but not all at once, or at the beginning and end) Doesn't the FAQ say something about letting things like this (like with wild mages) work in the most favorable way for the PC or at the player's choice? ;)
RtrnofdMax 12-06-07, 10:52 AM	Now I'm not going to argue whether the player has a choice to apply the extra healing whenever he wants, but I would rule that the player must declare in which rounds the extra healing will apply. Vigor does not require a round by round concentration check, so, you cast the spell and it does it's thing. I would not allow you to "choose" to apply your extra healing right after the BDF gets mauled by something. How are you still influencing the spell such that you could make that decision? First round, last round, over the 4 rounds starting with the 3rd, I think you have to declare when you cast.
JamesMaissen 12-06-07, 01:27 PM	Now I'm not going to argue whether the player has a choice to apply the extra healing whenever he wants, but I would rule that the player must declare in which rounds the extra healing will apply. Vigor does not require a round by round concentration check, so, you cast the spell and it does it's thing. I would not allow you to "choose" to apply your extra healing right after the BDF gets mauled by something. How are you still influencing the spell such that you could make that decision? First round, last round, over the 4 rounds starting with the 3rd, I think you have to declare when you cast. Well first of all I think that applying augment healing to the vigor spells is a mistake in the first place.. the spells simply grant fast healing rather than heal wounds directly over time. That said I would take the wording being used here as simply a wishy-washy way of saying things rather than to accept multiple possibilities. It was an answer like 'I guess it applies.. and I guess it's best to apply it here' rather than anything else. -James
Wraith235 12-15-07, 09:20 PM	I Personally Feel that the Best Way to use the Extra Healing from Vigor Spells is a Motto that most people should go by I am not Name Calling or anything like that so please dont Feel as thats what I am Doing ... (I will even Ommit the Last Word) K.I.S.S Keep it Simple (insert S Word here)