Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fleetfang 02-15-07, 09:51 AM	My apologies if this gets to be too long. Now that the LGCS is out, I need help building my PC for the Greyhawk Ruins plot arc. I would guess that minor options (like regional feats) will open up with the Ruins sourcebook, but I'd like to get a head start. Here is the concept: 1. I want to play an homage to my days in 1st edition, so I'd like to make a primary "Magic-User," since that's what I always played back in 1st and 2nd ed. 2. Since we can presume that a great deal of the Ruins storyline will probably be a dungeon delve, I'm thinking a race with Darkvision wouldn't be a bad idea. My friends and I have all agreed that making an all-darkvision party would be advantagous. 3. I'd like to have something to do outside of combat. In my estimation, useful out-of-combat roles include: Trapfinder, Diplomat, ... and well, those are the most important ones in my opinion, though I'm open to other suggestions. Of those two jobs one seems like a no-brainer over the other for this plot arc. 4. I think I'd like to take Greyhawk Method (assuming it may be Open for GHR PCs), and a reserve feat at some point early on, then trade it out later. 5. Finally, my schtick for this PC will be that he's a kobold from 1st edition that was reincarnated into [insert playable race here]. So he's got the personality of a haughty coward, and he presents himself as a kobold, but he doesn't actually have any of the stats. So here's what I'm thinking. Race: Deep Halfling: Darkvision, stonecunning, Dex bonus, and (being small) he can wear a hat of disguise to "resume" his "true" outward appearance of a kobold. Class: Wizard-based arcane caster (probably battlefield control, with front-end blaster as a backup plan) Non-combat role: Trapfinder The build I was looking at was this: Rog1/Wiz5/Geometer5/maybe fatespinner 4 It's solid and pretty much gets me everything that I need. But a buddy of mine has started another PC along this same build and I'd rather not have a carbon copy of his guy in my stable of characters. With the introduction of Unseen Seer, I wonder if there's a way to fit that in here, and perhaps use that to go into Arcane Trickster. I've looked at some of the builds, and I can't see a way to make it work without using Able Learner (a Closed feat). Can anyone here help me to build a decent trapfinding magic-user? Thanks for the help!
Mommy was an Orc 02-15-07, 10:05 AM	Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 4/Arcane Trickster 6 Str 6, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 8, Cha 8 Rogue 1: 4 ranks in Search, 3 ranks in Hide, 2 ranks in Spot, 4 in Sense Motive. Wizard 2: 4 ranks in Spellcraft You retrain 4 ranks of any skill you want into Spot upon levelling to 3rd, 4 into Hide upon levelling to 4th, 4 into Search upon 5th. At 4th, you put 2 cross-class points into Spot. At 5th, you put 2 cross-class points into both Spot/Hide. That takes care of all the skills - go Unseen Seer 2 before qualifying for AT, that will make it pretty easy(as well as giving you levels to retrain Disable Device/Escape Artist to 8 if you want)
jstorrie 02-15-07, 12:07 PM	Anything using Beguiler and/or Unseen Seer will make a good skilled magic-user that can also trap-find and troubleshoot. As they're both newly legal as of Feb 14th, you should be able to find a handful of builds on the first page of this board alone, ranging from melee Beguilers and ray-Scouts to Scout1/Caster14 and Rogue1/Caster 14 trap-mages. Spellwarp Sniper is also a less-optimal but potential heck of fun option.
Fleetfang 02-15-07, 12:43 PM	I considered Beguiler, but figured that that class has the same drawbacks that a straight Rogue usually has: When the party runs into an ooze, undead, or construct, then the Beguiler's probably reaching for his alchemist's fire, same as the Rogue. And in the Ruins of Castle Greyhawk, I'm fairly certain there'll be plenty of mindless 'things' down there. MWaO, thanks for the tricky work-around for the skill points. It's costly in gp and TU to be sure, but most likely the best that one can do without going Human, Grey Elf, or Rog2 for the skill points. The first of many (I'm sure) follow-up questions: Assuming it will be legal, what is the general opinion on the Greyhawk Method feat? I think it looks pretty snazzy, but then, I'm probably just taking it for the extra spells, not the expanded bonus feat usage. Would it be extraneous?
UMiskatonic 02-15-07, 01:33 PM	Well, the extra spells will save you money (yay), and expand your versatility (yay again). The feats are okay, but I think some of them lack a bit of juice. Combat casting is inferior to Skill Focus Concentration Spell Penetration is only meh, given access to SR:no spells from SpC The feats -are- nice if you need sky high DCs. That's good for an evoker or an enchanter, it's weaker for summoners and transmuters. However, you'll only get to one of those feats if you take a 5th level of wizard. And I think that Craft Wondrous has them all beat, unless you want a destruction type wizard with Sudden Maximize, etc.
jstorrie 02-15-07, 01:58 PM	Beguilers against oozes: UMD or buff against mindless undead or constructs: figments pwn, here against intelligent undead or constructs: UMD or buff Your beguiler isn't useless when it comes up against a vampire. He just has to alter his strategy - you can cast haste, silence, dispel magic, solid fog, etc...
Fleetfang 02-15-07, 04:17 PM	jstorrie, I stand corrected. Though judging from the experience of a friend of mine with a Beguiler in the WLD campaign, I'm thinking it isn't for me in the GHR plot arc. Your milage may vary, of course. UMiska got me thinking about feats, and I realize things are pretty tight on this build. Assuming deep halfling, MWaO's build suggestions, and the fact that ArcTric is going to push me toward front-end blasting as a primary caster role... 1. Rog 1 - Point Blank, SA+1d6 2. Wiz 1 - Scribe Scroll(b) 3. Wiz 2 - Precise Shot, retrain: skills 4. Wiz 3 - retrain: skills 5. Wiz 4 6. UsS 1 - Empower Spell, SA+2d6 7. UsS 2 - Silent Spell(b) 8. UsS 3 9. UsS 4 - Practiced Spellcaster (or hoping for Ocular spell by this point), SA+3d6 10. AT 1 11. AT 2 - SA+4d6 12. AT 3 - Practiced Spellcaster (if not earlier) or CWI 13. AT 4 - SA+5d6 14. AT 5 15. AT 6 - Craft feat? (Or something crazy that hasn't been released yet?), SA+6d6 Looks like Greyhawk Method is a moot point. So, perhaps, is a reserve feat that I might take early and then retrain out later. It seems that without PBS and Precise, then the high Dex is going to waste. Also, they're somewhat invaluable to ArcTric builds. I could possibly get Precise by dropping 3 levels into Spellwarp Sniper (losing three levels of ArcTric), but that hits my BAB and Fort save even harder than it already suffers with this build. Plus that's three levels without Search or Disable Device. I wonder, is Practiced Spellcaster a necessity? It makes up for Rog1 and UsS3, but that's half the feat not going to use. Craft Wondrous seems almost pointless to take so late in the build, when with the new LGCS, one can start crafting stat bump items as soon as animal buffs are available. I could always stick Wiz5 in here somewhere to get either CWI or (assuming access) Ocular Spell as a bonus feat. Overall, I'm starting to see a balancing act with this build. Very tricky, remaining useful, without diluting itself too much for secondary duties. I'll be honest, I haven't played a Wizard in 3rd edition yet, so things like Crafting feats and Practiced Spellcaster aren't my first thoughts. Amatuer oversights, I know, but those kinds of reminders are welcome. Thanks to all thus far.
Mommy was an Orc 02-15-07, 04:39 PM	1. Rog 1 - Point Blank, SA+1d6 2. Wiz 1 - Scribe Scroll(b) 3. Wiz 2 - Precise Shot, retrain: skills 4. Wiz 3 - retrain: skills 5. Wiz 4 6. UsS 1 - Empower Spell, SA+2d6 7. UsS 2 - Silent Spell(b) 8. UsS 3 9. UsS 4 - Practiced Spellcaster (or hoping for Ocular spell by this point), SA+3d6 10. AT 1 11. AT 2 - SA+4d6 12. AT 3 - Practiced Spellcaster (if not earlier) or CWI 13. AT 4 - SA+5d6 14. AT 5 15. AT 6 - Craft feat? (Or something crazy that hasn't been released yet?), SA+6d6 UsS 4 is so you can use the generally superior skill points of UsS on UsS skills and AT on Disable Device. So you want to split UsS 3-4 behind AT 1-2. This also gives you more time to pick up Practiced Spellcaster to deal with the caster level issue - because you get penalized in terms of caster level, you may not be able to cast your highest level of spells. Also, be aware of just how potent CWI is now for MAD crazy builds - because there's no caster level limit, it means you can craft yourself items at very low levels - if you pick it up at 3rd level, you can make yourself a +2 Int Headband and Vest of Resistance +1 for 2500 gold.
Fleetfang 02-15-07, 06:27 PM	Is that really how Unseen Seer works? The penalty in caster level from Divination Spellpower can make some of your spells uncastable? That seems kind of odd... Wouldn't they be castable, but they would be at a lower caster level than normal? Like the spell goes off, but has a shorter duration, or affects fewer hitdice, or has fewer rays or whatever. I suppose that some spells, depending on the wording might be affected as to be completely uncastable, but it seems like a rather harsh reading of the rules... Thanks for the clarification on the order of class levels. Makes sense. So my question now is, can I pull of an arcane trickster without point blank and precise? Doesn't seem like it's an advisable position... especially if many combats take place in cramped dungeon corridors.
copper_wyrmling 02-15-07, 07:25 PM	Is that really how Unseen Seer works? The penalty in caster level from Divination Spellpower can make some of your spells uncastable? That seems kind of odd... Wouldn't they be castable, but they would be at a lower caster level than normal? Like the spell goes off, but has a shorter duration, or affects fewer hitdice, or has fewer rays or whatever. I suppose that some spells, depending on the wording might be affected as to be completely uncastable, but it seems like a rather harsh reading of the rules... Mommy and I have been arguing this by private message. To be clear, I completely disagree with him ;) His argument is based on the PHB rules that say you can't deliberately lower the caster level of a spell below a certain minimum, which depends on the level of the spell (e.g. can't choose to cast Fireball at caster level 4). My counter-argument is that rule only applies to voluntarily reducing the caster level of a spell below your caster level, which is different to the case where your caster level is reduced by something outside your control - for example, energy drain lowers caster level but does not remove your ability to cast top-tier spells. Mommy's response to that is that negative levels only affect your effective caster level for determining the properties of your spells, rather than whether you can actually cast them... There are a few other abilities floating around that are affected by this question - one that I noticed recently, when preparing to GM an LG game for a noctumancer, is the noctumancer's Eldritch Disruption ability (and later the Eldritch Vortex ability). It gives the target a -4 penalty on caster level for all spells cast within a certain time... obviously, this is EXTREMELY nasty if it deprives the target of all their spells from their top two levels. I did email CustServ and was told that caster level penalties only affect range, duration, damage etc, not the ability to cast spells of a certain level, but eh, it's CustServ, and they didn't give a rules reference... I'm pretty sure that won't change anybody's mind.
Fleetfang 02-16-07, 12:40 AM	Ah, yes. Copper, that sounds right to me. In fact, it seems that Mommy even argues against himself with this point: Mommy's response to that is that negative levels only affect your effective caster level for determining the properties of your spells, rather than whether you can actually cast them. This (to me, you, and CustServ at least) sounds like exactly what Unseen Seer does: affect your effective caster level. It also sounds far more balanced, and interactive with the fact that UsS gets +1 level of spellcasting (spells known, spells per day) each level. So, despite the controversy here, if we assume that you don't lose the ability to cast upper level spells, would UsS3 and Rog1 be enough to justify a need for Practiced Spellcaster? over say, Empower or Quicken Spell? This might be a deal breaker for me to use this build or just break down and go Rog1/Wiz5/Geom5/FateSp4. Thanks for ALL of the help so far, people. :)
copper_wyrmling 02-16-07, 12:57 AM	Ah, yes. Copper, that sounds right to me. In fact, it seems that Mommy even argues against himself with this point: This (to me, you, and CustServ at least) sounds like exactly what Unseen Seer does: affect your effective caster level. It also sounds far more balanced, and interactive with the fact that UsS gets +1 level of spellcasting (spells known, spells per day) each level. Uhhh. I tried to give an honest listing of the arguments both of us had come up with, but Mommy may not consider it so - it's not really fair to dismiss his arguments based on a summary from someone who disagrees with him. I do still think he's wrong, but fairness in debate is a good thing :) I also agree with you on the balance issue, btw. I think Practised Spellcaster is still worth it - +2 on SR checks and +2d6 or more damage on most spells (or rather more than that if you're throwing empowered scorching rays at L11: bumping to CL11 rather than CL9 means +6d6 damage) seems easily worth a feat to me. Quicken would be nice at L12, but probably not before then. If you've got Empower, that's really most of what you need to keep your damage up in the low-mid levels - my sorcerer had Empower as her only damage-boosting metamagic up until L11, and did fine. Regarding Point Blank and Precise: they're invaluable at low levels. At higher levels, as you fight bigger creatures and your BAB goes up, they become less important (note that the melee penalty can be negated if you can target a square far enough away from an opponent - from memory, it means you can almost always avoid the penalty when fighting huge or larger creatures).
Mommy was an Orc 02-16-07, 07:44 AM	Ah, yes. Copper, that sounds right to me. In fact, it seems that Mommy even argues against himself with this point: This (to me, you, and CustServ at least) sounds like exactly what Unseen Seer does: affect your effective caster level. It also sounds far more balanced, and interactive with the fact that UsS gets +1 level of spellcasting (spells known, spells per day) each level. That's not quite my argument. There's an example in PHB where Mialee attempts to cast a fireball - she's allowed to cast Fireball at a minimum of 5th caster level(as she's a Wizard) If my character is a Rogue 3/Wizard 2/Unseen Seer 3, my maximum caster level for non-divination spells is 4 due to a reduction in caster level. I'm still a Wizard for purposes of spells that can be cast, which makes my minimum caster level 5 for Fireball. Which means I can't cast it. It isn't a penalty - the example in Unseen Seer is a Rogue 4/Sorcerer 1/Unseen Seer 6 with a caster level of 5 for non-divination spells. A negative level is not a reduction in caster level, it is a penalty to effective caster level. That's a different thing - you still have the caster level, just as a Fighter 6 still has a +6 BAB with a negative level(and therefore iterative attack). But just as the Fighter's two swings are weaker than they ought to be, so is the Wizard 5's fireball. That's my argument - there's two different terms: Reduction to caster level - Wild Mage, Unseen Seer Penalty to effective caster level - Negative levels
jimmy_dowdall 02-16-07, 10:15 AM	if ur going to play a mage, play a mage, leave the rouging to the rouge it will only slow ur spell advancement, as for greyhawk meathod take it a first level for maxium benefit. the more spells the better amust for the right scroll for the job card and for other scrolls in general the more spells=more options
Mommy was an Orc 02-16-07, 10:35 AM	if ur going to play a mage, play a mage, leave the rouging to the rouge it will only slow ur spell advancement, as for greyhawk meathod take it a first level for maxium benefit. the more spells the better amust for the right scroll for the job card and for other scrolls in general the more spells=more options Have you read Unseen Seer? A Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10 casts as a 14th level Wizard(with Practiced Spellcaster), and with the likely +4-6 in Int, is roughly comparable on skill points.
Fleetfang 02-16-07, 10:49 AM	MWaO, Sorry for taking your argument by proxy. I can see your point. From a balance issue, I still don't think it a likely ruling, but we've all been wrong before. I submitted it for clarification to the Sage, so we'll see if it gets any attention. Didn't mean to hijack my own thread. Jimmy, Perhaps you're right. But here's the thing: I'm a strong believer in the idea that every character should be useful both inside and outside of combat. I am in a World's Largest Dungeon campaign right now (different one than the friend I mentioned earlier), and it has really highlighted the disperate levels of engagement between those people who can only swing a sword or sling spells and those characters that are able to do useful things outside of initiative. Whether that be trapfinding or facing for the party when we run into non-hostiles. I'm not tied to the idea of making a trapper wizard. But I would very much like to have something that he is good at when "kill everything in sight" isn't the order of the day. Aside from trapper (which we're discussing) and diplomat (which a wizard isn't suited terribly well for when Marshals, Paladins and Clerics are around), what kind of roles outside of combat might a character perform? Again, I really appreciate the thoughtful discussion on this, guys. I'd buy y'all a drink if the internet would let me. :)
copper_wyrmling 02-16-07, 12:11 PM	A negative level is not a reduction in caster level, it is a penalty to effective caster level. That's a different thing - you still have the caster level, just as a Fighter 6 still has a +6 BAB with a negative level(and therefore iterative attack). But just as the Fighter's two swings are weaker than they ought to be, so is the Wizard 5's fireball. That's my argument - there's two different terms: Reduction to caster level - Wild Mage, Unseen Seer Penalty to effective caster level - Negative levels I still think your fighter argument is a bad analogy. If you took a "penalty to effective BAB", then absolutely, I would deny the fighter their iterative (you don't with negative levels, you take -1 to hit, which is quite different). I don't really see your justification for declaring that one of the terms above means something entirely different to the other. But yeah, let's hope an answer gets into Sage Advice and from there to the FAQ ;)
Mommy was an Orc 02-16-07, 01:18 PM	I still think your fighter argument is a bad analogy. If you took a "penalty to effective BAB", then absolutely, I would deny the fighter their iterative (you don't with negative levels, you take -1 to hit, which is quite different). I don't really see your justification for declaring that one of the terms above means something entirely different to the other. They use different terms. They could have said that Wild Mage and Unseen Seer give a penalty to effective caster level instead of reduction to caster level. A -1 to hit is a penalty to 'effective BAB' - they don't need to say effective BAB because a simple -1 to hit is more concise.
UMiskatonic 02-16-07, 01:31 PM	Well, there's the scholar role, the guy with all the Knowledge and language skills. You could also take the arcane disciple feat, push WIS a little, and be a wizard with some healing spells. Combined with your free scribe scroll feat, you'll get the job done (slowly, but surely). In the ruins, like WLD, there might be more of a priority on "what is that thing?" Skills like K(arch) or Appraise, spells like Identify; might be really good.
Fleetfang 02-16-07, 01:42 PM	Thinking about a few things before I post again. Quick question: Can a first level PC take a metamagic feat, even if he can't cast spells yet?
Japangirl 02-16-07, 01:43 PM	Knowledge guys can be gnomes and take the feat out of Races of Stone that lets you roll twice on every single knowledge check you make and take the higher roll. It's not *chance to reroll*, it's *drop 2d20 and take the better one*. It's pretty awesome for gnome wizards or bards.
UMiskatonic 02-16-07, 02:36 PM	Quick question: Can a first level PC take a metamagic feat, even if he can't cast spells yet? Who cares? Take something more useful at low levels, and retrain it. Five levels of Improved Initiative (for example) is worth the money, in my book.