Post/Author/DateTime	Post
boogahwoof 01-30-07, 12:44 AM	i have started a cleric of st cuthbert, i would like to have some melee skills as well as be able to buff myself for fighting, as well as other party members. wanting to see if theres any suggestions for a plan i should take for being a ultamate buffer cleric seeing how the new party already has a clearic going for radiant servant (which are all over the place). i just wanted to do something a lil different with this cleric, any help would be greatly appriciated, yall have never steered me wrong thanks a friendly yeoman
Lupo 01-30-07, 03:45 AM	i have started a cleric of st cuthbert, i would like to have some melee skills as well as be able to buff myself for fighting, as well as other party members. wanting to see if theres any suggestions for a plan i should take for being a ultamate buffer cleric seeing how the new party already has a clearic going for radiant servant (which are all over the place). i just wanted to do something a lil different with this cleric, any help would be greatly appriciated, yall have never steered me wrong thanks a friendly yeoman with another cleric at the table, you might consider going melee cleric - something not to bad for st. cuthbert - by concentrating on (self)-buffing, divine combat feats and strength and constitution. something like: st 16 (10) dex 10 (2) con 16 (10) int 8 (0) wis 14 (6) ch 8 (0) (maybe even dumping dex to 8 to get wis up to 15 :D) ciao martin m.
UMiskatonic 01-30-07, 11:29 AM	A lot of the fighter tricks work here. Power attack Two handed weapon High strength Dwarf or half-orc is good, also human etc. You don't need super wisdom. No one will resist a buff spell, so it's ok if the DC is 10. Take Craft Arms and Armor early in your career, saving all that money on gear is important. Give up on turning undead. If you want to take a turn-related feat later, then maybe that's ok, but you could safely skip it.
UMiskatonic 01-30-07, 11:31 AM	The most important decision will be your neck slot. Why? Because you have to choose between an amulet of health (hit points) and a periapt of wisdom (spells, DCs). I would build my melee cleric around this decision, which probably means a 15 Con, a 14 Wisdom, and a plan to purchase a periapt of wisdom around 10th level. I'd bump Con upward at 4th level, and then park it at 16. Then, get as much Str as you can. If there are points left over, you can put them wherever you like.
Sieylianna 01-30-07, 12:58 PM	If your group already has a cleric, you should look into favored soul, if you haven't already played as a cleric. Ed
Gaelforcwynd 01-31-07, 07:43 AM	i have started a cleric of st cuthbert, i would like to have some melee skills as well as be able to buff myself for fighting, as well as other party members. wanting to see if theres any suggestions for a plan i should take for being a ultamate buffer cleric seeing how the new party already has a clearic going for radiant servant (which are all over the place). i just wanted to do something a lil different with this cleric, any help would be greatly appriciated, yall have never steered me wrong thanks a friendly yeoman This is my idea.. Human Cleric 1 of St. Cuthbert STR: 14 (+2) - morningstar or mace DEX: 14 (+2) - chainmail (AC +7) CON: 14 (+2) - 10 HP (+6/lvl) INT: 8 (-1) - 8 still ranks + 2/level WIS: 16 (+3) - bonus spells up to 3rd level CHA: 8 (-1) I would probably bump WIS up to 18 because those bonus spells are always useful. Get a Periapt of Health later to get your CON/HP up. You might choose to use a ranged weapon also. Skills: Concentration 4 ranks +, Spellcraft 4 ranks +. You start with a +10 to Concentration checks (ranks +4, feat +3, WIS +3). Keeping adding the 2 skill points per level into Concentration and Spellcraft. Feats: Improved Initiative, Skill Focus (Concentration). You start with +6 to initiative checks (feat +4, DEX +2). This will help your party gain the upper hand in combat. Take a Metamagic feat like Enlarge or Extend Spell next. Perhaps Craft Wondrous Items later, when you can afford to make them. Domains: Protection, Strength. Spells: 0: Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Read Magic 1st: Bless, Remove Fear + Enlarge Person
KarmaInferno 01-31-07, 02:33 PM	Chain Spell works awesomely if you use it for buff spells. It's only so-so for attack spells but being able to buff an entire party at a shot can completely alter the power level of a party. The only issue is that a lot of buff spells are touch based. To get around this you need to be able to convert single-target touch spells to "greater than touch" single-target spells. The Reach Spell feat does NOT work due to it making the spells into rays, which are "area" effects, not "target" effects. The Hierophant Divine Reach special ability DOES work, since it merely grants a 30 or more foot range without actually changing the effect type. But you give up a casting level to do it. My 14 cleric has Chain Spell, Divine Reach, and Divine Metamagic. He annoys DMs. :D -karma
rockondon 01-31-07, 02:53 PM	in higher levels you will probably want to use a periapt of wisdom to help you get free 5th and 6th level spells, and an ioun stone for the +2 con. You could go vise versa with a big amulet of health, but if you're a buffing cleric you probably won't need so many hit points since you'll likely tend to be behind the front line, and you'll probably be doing more spellcasting than tanking which favors the periapt over the amulet. My cleric (up to lvl 8 next module if she lives) is heading towards maximize spell + divine metamagic, and two crafting feats (wondrous item & arms and armor). Her future includes maximized flamestrikes and pimped out gear thanks to her craft wondrous access feats.
Bob_the_Theurge 01-31-07, 03:13 PM	This is my idea.. Human Cleric 1 of St. Cuthbert STR: 14 (+2) - morningstar or mace DEX: 14 (+2) - chainmail (AC +7) CON: 14 (+2) - 10 HP (+6/lvl) INT: 8 (-1) - 8 still ranks + 2/level WIS: 16 (+3) - bonus spells up to 3rd level CHA: 8 (-1) Unless you plan on this character being in the High-Level campaign, an odd stat is better somewhere. That way, you can take full advantage of your three stat bumps (4,8,12). My personal suggestion: STR: 12 (+1) - morningstar or mace DEX: 14 (+2) - chainmail (AC +7) CON: 14 (+2) - 10 HP (+6/lvl) INT: 8 (-1) - 8 still ranks + 2/level WIS: 15 (+3) - bonus spells up to 3rd level CHA: 12 Strength you won't really need so much - you can buff as needed, or get items for that. Charisma you want at least a 12 in because you don't want to have a penalty on turning attempts per day, you're going to want a Divine feat at some point. More on that later. I would probably bump WIS up to 18 because those bonus spells are always useful. Get a Periapt of Health later to get your CON/HP up. You might choose to use a ranged weapon also. Bonus spells can be fixed with Pearls of Power; bumping WIS so high might be great for your saving throw, but as a buffing cleric, you're not counting on Saving Throw anyways. If you do take the Amulet of Health, you can craft the Wisdom Ioun Stone (presuming you take Craft Wondrous Item somewhere down the road, which I suggest strongly) later, or vice versa if you go for the Periapt of Wisdom. Skills: Concentration 4 ranks +, Spellcraft 4 ranks +. You start with a +10 to Concentration checks (ranks +4, feat +3, WIS +3). Keeping adding the 2 skill points per level into Concentration and Spellcraft. Actually, Concentration comes off of Constitution. And as a buffing Cleric, you probably won't need it to be super-high on a daily basis. Skill Focus is nice but unnecessary, as long as you keep putting points into your skill properly you'll get high enough not to worry too much. Definitely do max out your Concentration, but I'd skip Spellcraft in favor of Knowledge Religion (at least 5 ranks so you get the synergy on Turning checks, which will become important in a minute). Feats: Improved Initiative, Skill Focus (Concentration). You start with +6 to initiative checks (feat +4, DEX +2). This will help your party gain the upper hand in combat. Take a Metamagic feat like Enlarge or Extend Spell next. Perhaps Craft Wondrous Items later, when you can afford to make them. Personally, I feel if you are a buffing cleric, the following feats (in no particular order) will be most beneficial to you: Craft Wondrous Item - with enough caster level, you can make DMG items, both to buff yourself up and to hand out to your fellow players. You'll also find access to a lot of things you'll want to craft for yourself later. Augment Healing - a couple points kicker on your curing spells can do quite a bit to help. Divine Spellpower - This can boost the duration of your buffs, as well as bump them to the next level (Greater Magic Weapon usually gets +1 better from it for instance, as does Magic Vestments). Powered by your Turning attempts, which you won't be able to do much with anyways at later levels. A 12 CHA got you four uses a day, which isn't insubstantial at all. Anything you can do to improve your turning check - items of Charisma and so on, and that +2 synergy from Knowledge:Religion - will boost you in this regard as well. Divine Metamagic/Extra Turning; tie the DMM to something like Extend Spell or Reach Spell or something else, and rather than costly levels of memorization, your turning attempts become a way to be a more effective buffer again. Improved Initiative sounds really great at early levels, but - except for Rogues - I've never seen it make too much ton of difference; your luck in the d20 rolls still has more effect on the order you go in combat. Improved Initiative is more powerful for characters who can build up a 22+ dexterity and who stack it with Blooded or other methods of further boosting their Initiative. Domains: Protection, Strength. Analysis of Cuthbert's available domains follows: #1 - Destruction - daily smite ability is nice, spell selection blows chunks. I'd avoid this. #2 - Good domain; +1 caster level on Good spells, some decent buffs (prot. evil, magic circle, aid) on the list, Holy Smite and Holy Word aren't bad either. Watch out as some triads really frown on the Divine Spellpower + Holy Word combo. #3 - Law: see Good domain, very similar. #4 - Protection: frankly, the domain ability's a bit subpar, and you're better off memorizing those spells off your normal spell list (you'll be asked for them a lot anyways). The lower-level spells in this domain definitely turn into "not so much" at higher level. #5 - Strength domain; this will be the bread and butter for self-buffing for you or for powering up the fighter. Strongly recommended. #6 - Domination: domain ability gives you Spell Focus(Enchantment), which doesn't do all that much as a buffing cleric; spells are all saving-throw spells that the enemy is likely as not to make the save on. I'd avoid it for you. #7 - Inquisition; now here's an interesting choice. +4 on all Dispel checks means you could be a seriously nasty counterspeller (normal Dispel Magic on with Your Level +4 to a max of 14 at 10th level means you're pumping out better than a Greater Dispel could, and at 11th level your Greater Dispel is at +15 without Divine Spellpower already). Pretty good roleplaying spells on the spell list too. Regrettably, Reactive Counterspell is (A) Limited and (B) not likely to see access anywhere, but you could seriously crimp a caster's style by readying to counterspell and Dispel Magic is something that sees pretty frequent usage involving the need for a high Dispel check. Spells: 0: Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Read Magic 1st: Bless, Remove Fear + Enlarge Person Your spell list is going to change a lot as you level; don't worry about a daily list quite yet.
jstorrie 01-31-07, 03:56 PM	An odd stat is definitely not better somewhere, Bob_the_Theurge, especially considering the prevalence of +1 stat ioun stones, +1 stat books, and various +1 stat bumps from mods. A melee cleric should shy away from taking a -1 to-hit/damage hit from levels 1-4.
Gaelforcwynd 01-31-07, 04:42 PM	Unless you plan on this character being in the High-Level campaign, an odd stat is better somewhere. That way, you can take full advantage of your three stat bumps (4,8,12). My personal suggestion: STR: 12 (+1) - morningstar or mace DEX: 14 (+2) - chainmail (AC +7) CON: 14 (+2) - 10 HP (+6/lvl) INT: 8 (-1) - 8 still ranks + 2/level WIS: 15 (+3) - bonus spells up to 3rd level CHA: 12 Strength you won't really need so much - you can buff as needed, or get items for that. Charisma you want at least a 12 in because you don't want to have a penalty on turning attempts per day, you're going to want a Divine feat at some point. More on that later. Bonus spells can be fixed with Pearls of Power; bumping WIS so high might be great for your saving throw, but as a buffing cleric, you're not counting on Saving Throw anyways. If you do take the Amulet of Health, you can craft the Wisdom Ioun Stone (presuming you take Craft Wondrous Item somewhere down the road, which I suggest strongly) later, or vice versa if you go for the Periapt of Wisdom. Actually, Concentration comes off of Constitution. And as a buffing Cleric, you probably won't need it to be super-high on a daily basis. Skill Focus is nice but unnecessary, as long as you keep putting points into your skill properly you'll get high enough not to worry too much. Definitely do max out your Concentration, but I'd skip Spellcraft in favor of Knowledge Religion (at least 5 ranks so you get the synergy on Turning checks, which will become important in a minute). Personally, I feel if you are a buffing cleric, the following feats (in no particular order) will be most beneficial to you: Craft Wondrous Item - with enough caster level, you can make DMG items, both to buff yourself up and to hand out to your fellow players. You'll also find access to a lot of things you'll want to craft for yourself later. Augment Healing - a couple points kicker on your curing spells can do quite a bit to help. Divine Spellpower - This can boost the duration of your buffs, as well as bump them to the next level (Greater Magic Weapon usually gets +1 better from it for instance, as does Magic Vestments). Powered by your Turning attempts, which you won't be able to do much with anyways at later levels. A 12 CHA got you four uses a day, which isn't insubstantial at all. Anything you can do to improve your turning check - items of Charisma and so on, and that +2 synergy from Knowledge:Religion - will boost you in this regard as well. Divine Metamagic/Extra Turning; tie the DMM to something like Extend Spell or Reach Spell or something else, and rather than costly levels of memorization, your turning attempts become a way to be a more effective buffer again. Improved Initiative sounds really great at early levels, but - except for Rogues - I've never seen it make too much ton of difference; your luck in the d20 rolls still has more effect on the order you go in combat. Improved Initiative is more powerful for characters who can build up a 22+ dexterity and who stack it with Blooded or other methods of further boosting their Initiative. Analysis of Cuthbert's available domains follows: #1 - Destruction - daily smite ability is nice, spell selection blows chunks. I'd avoid this. #2 - Good domain; +1 caster level on Good spells, some decent buffs (prot. evil, magic circle, aid) on the list, Holy Smite and Holy Word aren't bad either. Watch out as some triads really frown on the Divine Spellpower + Holy Word combo. #3 - Law: see Good domain, very similar. #4 - Protection: frankly, the domain ability's a bit subpar, and you're better off memorizing those spells off your normal spell list (you'll be asked for them a lot anyways). The lower-level spells in this domain definitely turn into "not so much" at higher level. #5 - Strength domain; this will be the bread and butter for self-buffing for you or for powering up the fighter. Strongly recommended. #6 - Domination: domain ability gives you Spell Focus(Enchantment), which doesn't do all that much as a buffing cleric; spells are all saving-throw spells that the enemy is likely as not to make the save on. I'd avoid it for you. #7 - Inquisition; now here's an interesting choice. +4 on all Dispel checks means you could be a seriously nasty counterspeller (normal Dispel Magic on with Your Level +4 to a max of 14 at 10th level means you're pumping out better than a Greater Dispel could, and at 11th level your Greater Dispel is at +15 without Divine Spellpower already). Pretty good roleplaying spells on the spell list too. Regrettably, Reactive Counterspell is (A) Limited and (B) not likely to see access anywhere, but you could seriously crimp a caster's style by readying to counterspell and Dispel Magic is something that sees pretty frequent usage involving the need for a high Dispel check. Your spell list is going to change a lot as you level; don't worry about a daily list quite yet. Yes, an odd stat is better. I utterly foresook turning and healing for that build, hence the lack of anyting pertinent to it. My bad on the CON/WIS error. St. Cuthbert gets the Inquisition Domain?! TAKE IT!
Bob_the_Theurge 01-31-07, 05:33 PM	An odd stat is definitely not better somewhere, Bob_the_Theurge, especially considering the prevalence of +1 stat ioun stones, +1 stat books, and various +1 stat bumps from mods. A melee cleric should shy away from taking a -1 to-hit/damage hit from levels 1-4. All Ioun stones are +2 in the 3.5 engine. You can count on a +1 stat book... if you can keep a ridiculous amount of GP available, and plan to cheat (by AR-shopping) to get access with the right character on the right mod. +1 stat mods? Same thing. I've had two with one character, and none with the characters I'd rather have them for, because I'm not a cheater and found them by blind luck.
copper_wyrmling 01-31-07, 10:25 PM	All Ioun stones are +2 in the 3.5 engine. You can count on a +1 stat book... if you can keep a ridiculous amount of GP available, and plan to cheat (by AR-shopping) to get access with the right character on the right mod. +1 stat mods? Same thing. I've had two with one character, and none with the characters I'd rather have them for, because I'm not a cheater and found them by blind luck. I have four characters above L1, at L15, L11, L6 and L3. Between them, they have about 200 ARs. None of them have ever gotten access to a +1 stat book (or higher for that matter), or any other item that bumps a stat by 1. One of them acquired a +1 inherent stat bonus from a mod (to a randomly rolled stat). These favors and items are out there, but they are extremely rare, at least in Cores and the regions / metaregions that I've played in.
clannagh 01-31-07, 10:32 PM	I have four characters above L1, at L15, L11, L6 and L3. Between them, they have about 200 ARs. None of them have ever gotten access to a +1 stat book (or higher for that matter), or any other item that bumps a stat by 1. One of them acquired a +1 inherent stat bonus from a mod (to a randomly rolled stat). These favors and items are out there, but they are extremely rare, at least in Cores and the regions / metaregions that I've played in. i have access to two I believe .. and missed out on another becasue of the actions of a scurilous party member giving something to the wrong person .. and no this time it wasnt Alvin (cannot say any more as I am pretty sure the mod in question is current)
rockondon 02-01-07, 01:03 AM	I've only done about 40 mods and I've gotten +1 stat books multiple times, not that I'll ever use them. Maybe when I'm lvl99 I can afford to buy one.
Gaelforcwynd 02-01-07, 02:51 AM	i have started a cleric of st cuthbert, i would like to have some melee skills as well as be able to buff myself for fighting, as well as other party members.. How about taking the Exotic Weapon Proficiency and Extend Spell feats at 1st level. Use a bastard sword and a buckler and some decent armour. After you run out of buffs, you can start wielding the bastard two-handed. You could always take Improved Critical at 12th level and start doing 2d10 on a roll of 17-20. :D
_m_ 02-01-07, 09:33 PM	i have access to two I believe .. and missed out on another becasue of the actions of a scurilous party member giving something to the wrong person .. and no this time it wasnt Alvin (cannot say any more as I am pretty sure the mod in question is current) Really? i just assumed you were talking about alvin, because... well... um... its ALWAYS alvin when things go bad :D
clannagh 02-01-07, 10:33 PM	Really? i just assumed you were talking about alvin, because... well... um... its ALWAYS alvin when things go bad :D haha no not Alvin THIS time though he is one of the better AR favor removers I have ever played with
clannagh 02-01-07, 10:35 PM	How about taking the Exotic Weapon Proficiency and Extend Spell feats at 1st level. Use a bastard sword and a buckler and some decent armour. After you run out of buffs, you can start wielding the bastard two-handed. You could always take Improved Critical at 12th level and start doing 2d10 on a roll of 17-20. :D methinks 2D10 at APL12 without some static damage from strength and power attack is going to have the monsters rolling on the ground chuckling :)
Munkwunk 02-02-07, 02:48 AM	How about taking the Exotic Weapon Proficiency and Extend Spell feats at 1st level. Exotic Weapon Proficiency requiers BAB +1, something Clerics don't get until 2nd level, meaning he couldn't take the proficiency until 3rd. I personally play a melee/buff cleric (half-orc of Mayaheine) at level 11, and I have been fairly successful. If you're planning on being a good mix of melee/buff, I have a few suggestions you might consider. While it is true you don't need a great Wisdom score (since you wont' rely on saving throws) make sure you start with at least a 14 and bump it as you level. I've found that a 17 Wis at 11th level means I don't have a lot of high level spells per day to use, so I'm limited on my ability to buff in that regard. I'd recommend starting with a strength of 16 or so and using a two-handed weapon with Power Attack. Unfortunately, St. Cuthbert doesn't have teh War domain and there aren't a lot of great two-handed simple weapons. However, since the damage dice itself is not as important as your other bonuses (power attack, STR, etc.) I'd recommend a normal, two-handed spear (or longsepar, if you'd like reach) to get you started. They have decent damage (d8) but the x3 crit is what you're really looking for. Keep a heavy mace (not a morning star) around for bashing skeletons at low levels, but by the time you've gone up a few pegs you won't need DR/bludgeoning very often (maybe for fighting the occasional lich). You can burn a precious feat on martial or exotic proficiency, but I wouldn't recommend it. If you're really concerned about the specific weapon you're using, pick a different deity, one with the War domain, such as Mayaheine. Strength is a great domain for St. Cuthbert, obviously. It ahs a good spell selection and the domain power is great for that one big wind-up smack you'd like to make each day. Note that it doesn't stack with Divine Power or other enhancement bonuses though. Personally, I haven't invested in any STR_boosting items because I'm usually under the effects of Divine Power anyway. For your other domain, you probably can't go wrong with Inquisition. I have Protection with Mayaheine, and I don't see a whole ton of use out of it. Feats to consider: Power attack (your bread and butter if youp lan on being a melee/buffer), Augment Healing (unless you play with the Radiant Servant *all* of the time, this is handy to have; it means you don't need to heal as often because you heal more efficiently, which means you can still be effective at a table if you're the only cleric), Steady Concentration (RoS) lets you take 10 on Concentration checks (I find this to be a melee cleric's best friend; being able to auto-make your Concentration checks to cast defensively is invaluable), Mobile Concentration (CV; allows you to move and cast as part of the same standard action; also invaluable if you're wearing full plate because it lets you squeeze extra movement in to your turn). You can get by without Divine Metamagic (and I have a feeling it may be going away with the next LGCS) and Divine Spellpower. Other Divine feats can be helpful, but you can easily get by without them, which means you can leave your Charisma at 8 and be just fine with your character. Craft Arms/Craft Wonderous are also great feats for any spellcaster. If you don't want Augment Healing, I'd pick up Craft Wondrous at 3rd instead. Some magic items you might want to consider are: Animated Heavy Shield (so you can have the AC but still two-hand a weapon), Vest of Concentration (if you can find access; +5 to Concentration checks!), Boots of Speed (or Striding and Springing at lower levels) since every bit of movement counts, Periapt of Wisdom/Amulet of Health. Personally, I'd go with the Periapt (if you start out with 14 Wis) because the bonus spells really are helpful at higher levels. An ioun stone of Con will help boost your Con a bit, or even a Belt of Dwarvenkind if you want to shell out for one (since you won't need your belt slot for Strength boosting). My own cleric has had a 14 Con for his whole career and does just fine; Divine Power gives him temp HP, as does Heroes' Feast, and Righteous Might gives a bonus to Con. Failing that, you always have Cure spells for yourself. Finally, if you have access to Heavy Plate (through a meta-org or elsewhere) you can easily leave your Dex at 10 and still get the msot out of your armor (Heavy Plate, RoS; +9 AC/+0 Max Dex). Make it Adamantine if you can ever possibly afford it, since Mithral heavy armor is rarely ideal for clerics. Okay, so I've rambled a ton, but I speak from experience. Good luck with your new build; playing the tank/buffer cleric can be a lot of fun.
jstorrie 02-02-07, 01:12 PM	Munkwunk - why Heavy Mace instead of Morningstar? Morningstar is cheaper and beats two kinds of DR.
Gaelforcwynd 02-02-07, 03:39 PM	How about taking the Exotic Weapon Proficiency and Extend Spell feats at 1st level. Use a bastard sword and a buckler and some decent armour. After you run out of buffs, you can start wielding the bastard two-handed. You could always take Improved Critical at 12th level and start doing 2d10 on a roll of 17-20. :D Okay that was just an amusing idea for me, as a AD&D 2nd Edition player, when Clerics had severe weapon restrictions. I am kind of new to the D&D 3.5 Edition, so I only know a bit about pure Clerics, not much at all about feats pertinent to other classes. Thanks to all for correcting my mistakes, I am learning a lot from the resident experts. So back on topic. He wants a buffing Cleric with some melee abilities. A decent STR would be good, but putting 4 extra points into getting STR from 14-16 for a +1 attack/damage bonus might be a frivolous, especially if he spends the first few rounds buffing from behind the front line. Still, if he has points to burn or needs to meet a prerequisite for a feat, or is just enthusiastic about wading in and breaking heads, STR is a good choice. It won't get him a bonus on saves though, which is useful if a buffing character wants to survive against various area effects long enough to help his party. DEX doesn't really matter when he is wearing full or heavy plate. Perhaps 12 DEX at most is what he needs, to fill out full plate. Having a decent CON is also a big bonus, especially in the lower levels. Those extra HP could save the party in a tight spot. One can rarely go wrong with a good CON. INT doesn't even come into it, unless he cares about skills. Obviously he will want a high WIS to get more spells. Upon gaining access to a new spell level, having access to an additional spell of each level makes him twice the buffer that he would otherwise be. If he isn't going to cash in on this, he might as well forget about being a Cleric. He doesn't want to be a turning Cleric, so he can leave CHA at 8. So how about: STR: 16 (+3) DEX: 10 (0) - or 12 for lower WIS and no bonus 4th level spell until much later CON: 14 (+2) INT: 8 (-1) WIS: 16 (+3) - or 15 and bump to 16 at 4th level for a bonus 4th level spell CHA: 8 (-1) He can wear heavy plate and have +9 AC. He can get an amulet of health or whatever the wondrous item is that boosts his CON later, when he will need it most. Bumping WIS up to at least 18 would be a good idea for extra higher level spells. I don't think it's worth having a +1 DEX bonus over an extra 4th level spell at 8th level. As far as feats and skills go, I am not realy informed enough to give any advice in that regard. I only have the core rules books.
Munkwunk 02-02-07, 07:58 PM	Munkwunk - why Heavy Mace instead of Morningstar? Morningstar is cheaper and beats two kinds of DR. I used to look at it the same way, hwoever.. The base price of a weapon does not matter beyond the limitations of your starting gold; after your first AR, you should have enough money to buy any weapon short of a high-STR mighty bow. Secondly, there just aren't creatures with DR/Piercing. I know of zero creatures off hand, though there may be soem rare creature somewhere which has it. I've never encoutnered one though. However, certain monsters, most notably Black Puddings and Ochre Jellies, thrive on piercing weapons; hit one of those suckers with a piecing weapon (such as a morningstar) and it will split. You can't "turn off" the piercing damage of a morningstar, which means you have to switch to a secondary weapon to fight Black Puddings anyway. The only reason I would suggest using a spear as your main weapon and the heavy mace as your secondary is that the spear has a higher critical multiplier; otherwise, the heavy mace is equal (if not better, since you have the option of one-handing it) in every way. The only type of DR you have to worry about after that is DR/Slashing (for zombies and the like) but that's fairly rare and even a cleric not focused in Turning can toast zombies at low levels and will be able to overcome DR5/Slashing with power attack and such later on. The only situatio I'm aware of in which a piercing weapon is in all ways superior to slashing/bludgeoning is under water, where piercing weapons (like the spear) have no penalties. Under water, it's hard to know what happens with a morningstar; either it takes the half damage penalty for being a bludgeoning weapon or no penalty at all for being a piercing weapon.
Lupo 02-03-07, 08:38 AM	I used to look at it the same way, hwoever.. The base price of a weapon does not matter beyond the limitations of your starting gold; after your first AR, you should have enough money to buy any weapon short of a high-STR mighty bow. Secondly, there just aren't creatures with DR/Piercing. I know of zero creatures off hand, though there may be soem rare creature somewhere which has it. I've never encoutnered one though. However, certain monsters, most notably Black Puddings and Ochre Jellies, thrive on piercing weapons; hit one of those suckers with a piecing weapon (such as a morningstar) and it will split. You can't "turn off" the piercing damage of a morningstar, which means you have to switch to a secondary weapon to fight Black Puddings anyway. The only reason I would suggest using a spear as your main weapon and the heavy mace as your secondary is that the spear has a higher critical multiplier; otherwise, the heavy mace is equal (if not better, since you have the option of one-handing it) in every way. The only type of DR you have to worry about after that is DR/Slashing (for zombies and the like) but that's fairly rare and even a cleric not focused in Turning can toast zombies at low levels and will be able to overcome DR5/Slashing with power attack and such later on. The only situatio I'm aware of in which a piercing weapon is in all ways superior to slashing/bludgeoning is under water, where piercing weapons (like the spear) have no penalties. Under water, it's hard to know what happens with a morningstar; either it takes the half damage penalty for being a bludgeoning weapon or no penalty at all for being a piercing weapon. i still would take morningstar, for a LG specific problem, no special metals on a great club, although the description hints for metal nobs and spikes, but basically it is the same problem as with quarterstaffs. ciao martin m.
magebeast 02-03-07, 01:45 PM	The Hierophant Divine Reach special ability DOES work, since it merely grants a 30 or more foot range without actually changing the effect type. But you give up a casting level to do it. My 14 cleric has Chain Spell, Divine Reach, and Divine Metamagic. He annoys DMs. :D -karma I'd examine the wording of Divine Reach if I were you, again. It doesn't actually change the range descriptor of the spell. It's still a touch spell, you're just using it at 30 feet. Chain spell requires the range of the spell to be greater than the touch, and like I said, you haven't changed the range "descriptor" of the spell. It may work in your area, but it doesn't work everywhere.
rockondon 02-03-07, 07:46 PM	more and more my cleric is loving the longspear. Having a reach weapon you don't need a feat to use is awesome. I use it as a backup weapon that is proving more and more effective in getting me AOOs and especially in dealing with monsters with reach. If I had used up a feat for a weapon I would have went with a glaive though due to its reach and damage. I personally prefer periapt of wisdom for the neck slot. Getting an extra flamestrike or heal spell per day is pretty substantial, not to mention your spell DCs and will saves.
KarmaInferno 02-05-07, 03:36 PM	I'd examine the wording of Divine Reach if I were you, again. It doesn't actually change the range descriptor of the spell. It's still a touch spell, you're just using it at 30 feet. Chain spell requires the range of the spell to be greater than the touch, and like I said, you haven't changed the range "descriptor" of the spell. It may work in your area, but it doesn't work everywhere. It is indeed true I get table variation. However, faced with the alternative of me using my OTHER Divine Metamagic, Quicken Spell, every round for multiple rounds a day (I have a extraordinary number of turning attempts), many DMs prefer I just chain some buffs and heals. =D -karma
magebeast 02-05-07, 08:55 PM	It is indeed true I get table variation. However, faced with the alternative of me using my OTHER Divine Metamagic, Quicken Spell, every round for multiple rounds a day (I have a extraordinary number of turning attempts), many DMs prefer I just chain some buffs and heals. =D -karma Dunno. Chained GMW and Magic Vestments coupled with cracks beads are pretty messed up. How do you have all that many turning attempts, anyway? If you're human you've got six feats. Four of them are burned in divine metamagic. If you dump two into extra turning and you have, say, a 16 charisma with a +6 cape that gives you 18 turning attempts a day - three quickens. Barring night sticks which aren't LG legal, I wasn't aware there was any way to increase your # of turning attempts.
KarmaInferno 02-11-07, 09:00 PM	Dunno. Chained GMW and Magic Vestments coupled with cracks beads are pretty messed up. How do you have all that many turning attempts, anyway? If you're human you've got six feats. Four of them are burned in divine metamagic. If you dump two into extra turning and you have, say, a 16 charisma with a +6 cape that gives you 18 turning attempts a day - three quickens. Barring night sticks which aren't LG legal, I wasn't aware there was any way to increase your # of turning attempts. 22 base charisma with a +6 cape. Okay, it's not THAT many, but enough that I can end fights in a round or so. Funny thing is, I end up not using the DMM Quicken that much, for pretty much the same reason I don't use Holy Word much - soloing encounters isn't much fun for the rest of the party, and I tend to want everyone to have fun. Sometimes you just have to pull out all the stops, though, and in those cases I am glad to have those weapons in my arsenal. I do generally ask the party OOC if they mind me pulling out the big guns in those cases, and usually it's a situation where nobody minds at all. Alas, I'll miss them. -karma
magebeast 02-11-07, 10:34 PM	22 base charisma with a +6 cape. Sheesh. You must have bought an 18 or got some lucky bumps!