Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BlackNova169 06-15-07, 01:23 PM	Hi, I'm looking for some help on what to do with my lvl 3 paladin & the direction I should take him. Right now I'm thinking going pal5 then taking Outcast champion at lvl 6+. The thing is, right now I feel kind of worthless in combat. More often than not I'm just healing the people who do damage (fighters mostly) with my CLW wand/lay on hands, or else going full-defensive on a mob in an attempt to hold it off til the damage-dealers come hit it. Originally I was hoping to be more of a support character (Cha 16) but in combat I feel like I'm not really holding my own very well. Here's my stats & feats: Str: 14 Dex: 10 Con: 12 Wis: 12 (i think;p) Int: 10 Cha: 16 Feats: Imp. Initiative & Imp. Smite (+1d6 to smite). I'm planning on taking extra smiting as my next feat at the moment. Items of note: Cold iron longsword, warhammer, Full plate, CLW Wand, random assorted consumables (alch fire, etc) Any help would be appreciated!
Banor 06-15-07, 01:35 PM	I think that you are perfectly build to grab some divine feats. Divine Might and divine Shield are probably what you are looking for to get in melee. Both of these feats are in the CW and work really really well for a high charisma paladin. Power attack might be a good idea too help a lot :)
UMiskatonic 06-15-07, 02:30 PM	I just retired my paladin as a saint of Al'Akbar, so here's what I've learned. 1) Paladins DONT fight as well as fighters. While you can do respectably, you have crazier stats and fewer feats, and that matters. 2) Retrain Imp. Initiative. It's usually a benefit for melee types to go toward the end of the round, and that +4 doesn't really offset your 10 Dex very much. 3) Get to Paladin 5, and stay on top of your warhorse. At the very least, it's +1 to hit for higher ground (usually), and X2 damage with a lance. Plus free cover with an easy ride check. Even before the special mount goodies, you need the hoof hoof bite weapon routine in order to compete with the fighter. 4) Extra smite damage sounds good, but here's how I see it. It adds, on average, 3.5 points of damage once a day. That's not real good. A different feat, like weapon focus, adds the equivalent of 2 points of damage TO EVERY SWING. Far better. Extra smiting isn't going to do much either. 5) You need Power Attack, and Divine Might as feats, just to stay even. Retrain Imp. Init, and take Divine Might at 6th level. They are both especially good with lances and charging. 6) YOU NEED STATS. Get as many +2 stat items as you can. Str, Cha, and Con are most important. Also a magic weapon is vital, you need that +1 to hit pretty badly. 7) While there's not much you can do now, a few extra feats are a huge help. You could take levels in fighter, hospitaler, or pious templar to grab a few more vital feats. In hindsight, I would have started Ftr 2, and then become a paladin.
thorinXXX 06-15-07, 03:04 PM	Paladins will never do the damage of a raging barbarian unless they go the mounted combat route. That is OK, they fill a slightly different role. They excel at the tank and cork roles so that is where you should focus your effort. Just because you are not doing outrageous damage in combat does not mean that you are useless. As has been said, Improved Init does very little for you. Divine feats are a decent choice for a high charisma paladin, but you cannot take them until after you get to turn things. Another option if you don't mind staying more in the support role is taking a few levels of marshal.
BlackNova169 06-15-07, 04:02 PM	Thanks for the responses! Right now I'm thinking of two possible paths, continuing on with pally5 then outcast, and getting divine might & power attack (or maybe divine shield & making a more 'tank' character, but probably not). This character would also have high diplomacy. I'm debating if I want to go pal5, then 1 level in marshal before I go Outcast Champion. Second choice would be to go for hospitaler and try to scrounge up enough skillpoints for ride & handle animal. However, I don't know what kind of feats I would be taking with this. (Ride-by attack & Mounted combat are required). However I don't know what I would want to take at lvl 6 for my normal & bonus feat. I havn't looked into mounted combat really at all so I don't know what's all good to take. Being a higher CHA pally I don't know if this path is the best.
Mommy was an Orc 06-15-07, 04:52 PM	I like the following 4 paths: Fighter 2/Paladin X/Hospitaler 1 - good number of feats, able to ride and charge too. Horse is a little weaker, but they have enough feats to get Shock Trooper and Divine Might. Cleric of St.Cuthbert 1/Paladin X - the king of smites - Destruction domain and Paladin give some interesting interaction with Extra Smites. Paladin 5/Outcast Champion 2/Divine Crusader 8 - melee weapon mastery at 12th, 7th level spells, lots of retributive attacks. Paladin 15 - not too bad - the one problem they really have is that they don't have enough feats to be good at both charging and smiting. And they're not quite as good at Smiting as the Cleric.
BlackNova169 07-02-07, 04:38 PM	I have a couple more paladin related questions I was wondering if you guys knew the answers to: I decided to get power attack at lvl 3. Now if I want to retrain Imp Init for Divine Might, can I do so at lvl 4 since I get turning charges then? I don't see this suggested so I assume it isn't possible, but what about retraining it at lvl 5? Second, is Rhino Rush from the SC open access? I see alot of people talking about how good it is and it would be a much more useful use of a 1st lvl spellslot. Third, are persistant metamagic rods allowed in LG? I ran a home game where a cleric used a ton of persistant buffs, and it seemed a little overpowered. Mainly, I was thinking that I could persist Bless weapon, protection from evil, etc. I probably won't waste gold on a rod + pearl of power but I was curious if it was possible.
awroe 07-02-07, 06:06 PM	I decided to get power attack at lvl 3. Now if I want to retrain Imp Init for Divine Might, can I do so at lvl 4 since I get turning charges then? I don't see this suggested so I assume it isn't possible, but what about retraining it at lvl 5? You can only train it into a feat slot that occurs after you gain the ability to turn, so if you gain it on your fourth level, it must take the 6th level feat slot (or a fighter bonus feat slot at 5th if it were a fighter bonus feat.) Second, is Rhino Rush from the SC open access? I see alot of people talking about how good it is and it would be a much more useful use of a 1st lvl spellslot. IIRC It is not open. You need to find it on an AR to use it. (I've seen it, so it's not impossible). Third, are persistant metamagic rods allowed in LG? I ran a home game where a cleric used a ton of persistant buffs, and it seemed a little overpowered. Mainly, I was thinking that I could persist Bless weapon, protection from evil, etc. I probably won't waste gold on a rod + pearl of power but I was curious if it was possible. Persistant spell is restricted, so related metamagic items will be too. You certainly couldn't buy one without seeing it on the AR in any case.
solbergb 07-02-07, 06:41 PM	I I decided to get power attack at lvl 3. Now if I want to retrain Imp Init for Divine Might, can I do so at lvl 4 since I get turning charges then? I don't see this suggested so I assume it isn't possible, but what about retraining it at lvl 5? Divine might requires a character to be able to turn undead before he can take the feat. For a straight paladin, that means it can't be taken before level 6, as that's the first feat he gets after he gets the ability to turn undead at level 4. You can't retrain to a L1 or L3 feat slot. Barring a cleric level in levels 1-3 (getting turn undead that way) divine might isn't a retrain option before level 7 (swapping the L6 feat)
clannagh 07-02-07, 07:14 PM	I have a couple more paladin related questions I was wondering if you guys knew the answers to: I decided to get power attack at lvl 3. Now if I want to retrain Imp Init for Divine Might, can I do so at lvl 4 since I get turning charges then? I don't see this suggested so I assume it isn't possible, but what about retraining it at lvl 5? Second, is Rhino Rush from the SC open access? I see alot of people talking about how good it is and it would be a much more useful use of a 1st lvl spellslot. Third, are persistant metamagic rods allowed in LG? I ran a home game where a cleric used a ton of persistant buffs, and it seemed a little overpowered. Mainly, I was thinking that I could persist Bless weapon, protection from evil, etc. I probably won't waste gold on a rod + pearl of power but I was curious if it was possible. You must have met the prerequisites for the new feat at the level you took the original feat you are removing. If you go hospitaler spirited charge is a good choice for the hospitaler bonus feat.
Grantor 07-02-07, 07:22 PM	It looks like our paladin friend should retrain into Power Attack and Weapon Focus, while dumping Improved Initiative and Improved Smite. The math is tricky, but it indicates that a better to-hit does more damage in the long run than a +1d6 that is only used occasionally. And if the thing you are hitting is easy to hit, you'll have the power attack to boost the damage. This leaves you primed to take Divine Might, as you have read, at level 6. However, I'd ask you how you are defining "useful"? Being able to absorb enemy spells with good saves, enemy attacks with good AC, and enemy position by blocking access to the soft back line is very useful. That allows other players to play arcanists and rogues and archers. Plus, paladins can have diplomacy, which makes them more interesting in the other 50% of encounters in which the BDF is useless.
kenobi65 07-02-07, 07:42 PM	YOU NEED STATS. Get as many +2 stat items as you can. Str, Cha, and Con are most important. LOL. Those are the exact items my paladin of Heironeous needed to buy... 7) While there's not much you can do now, a few extra feats are a huge help. You could take levels in fighter, hospitaler, or pious templar to grab a few more vital feats. Yeah, I went to Pious Templar after 6 levels of Paladin. Mettle's already saved my butt once, but I'm really looking forward to the Weapon Specialization...
Evanta 07-03-07, 07:36 AM	LOL. Those are the exact items my paladin of Heironeous needed to buy... Yeah, I went to Pious Templar after 6 levels of Paladin. Mettle's already saved my butt once, but I'm really looking forward to the Weapon Specialization... You mean the weapon mastery right after the Weapon Specialisation... :D
kenobi65 07-03-07, 01:45 PM	You mean the weapon mastery right after the Weapon Specialisation... :D Well, yes, there's that, too. :D
delewobmesid 07-03-07, 02:14 PM	Move your Paladin to the county of urnst, join a meta org or two, and pick up an Urnistian Warhorse...I'm looking forward to starting a Paladin and picking up this mount at second level (w/ mounted combat, no addition to APL!!!) http://www.onyxgate.com/urc/downloads/urnstianwarhorse.pdf
LGMoses 07-06-07, 02:33 AM	Well, if you can just get your paladin to step onto this catapult... :D
BlackNova169 07-06-07, 04:19 PM	Move your Paladin to the county of urnst, join a meta org or two, and pick up an Urnistian Warhorse...I'm looking forward to starting a Paladin and picking up this mount at second level (w/ mounted combat, no addition to APL!!!) http://www.onyxgate.com/urc/downloads/urnstianwarhorse.pdf First thing I thought was "Hahahaha Ducky!" when I saw the herald. Personally, I think I'm going to try to request a special mission in my region (Highfolk/Vesve Forest) for a unicorn mount, as it is fitting to the region (Giant forest) and would be a great boon in my crusade against Iuz's forces. The DMG1 states that paladin's can take a unicorn mount @ lvl 6. This leads to a quick unicorn question...in their description they say "Unicorns can make devestating charging attacks with their horns like a lance" or something to that extent...is this just flavor text, or would a charging unicorn actually have a x3 damage multiplier, like a lance? Thanks for the info on the retraining, I just got a hold of a PHB2 so I read over the rules for it...really makes me wish I would have taken 1 level of cleric. Right now I'm debating on if I want to retrain imp. init. to mounted combat (if i get access to a unicorn) or to weapon focus (warhammer) with the intent to get imp. critical (warhammer) later to synergize with Bless Weapon's autocrit ability. Speaking of Bless Weapon and pally spells, what do you guys think are the best 1st & 2nd level spells for a paladin to memorize? At 4th level I get my one whooping spell and I was thinking of memorizing Bless Weapon. Are there any other good Open access paladin spells (1st & 2nd lvl), especially ones not in the PHB? And are there any good ones to get access to (Rhino Rush is one i'm looking to get).
awroe 07-08-07, 06:17 PM	Speaking of Bless Weapon and pally spells, what do you guys think are the best 1st & 2nd level spells for a paladin to memorize? At 4th level I get my one whooping spell and I was thinking of memorizing Bless Weapon. Are there any other good Open access paladin spells (1st & 2nd lvl), especially ones not in the PHB? And are there any good ones to get access to (Rhino Rush is one i'm looking to get). Lesser Restoration is nice if there are some PoP 1 in the party.
jstorrie 07-08-07, 09:55 PM	If you've got that 12 Wisdom, Pious Templar is pretty good–who is this a paladin of? Pious Templar also has a smite ability that will synergize with your planned feats. Improved Smiting is not that great. I wouldn't count on it as your method of overcoming dr/good–get a Sacred or Holy weapon instead, or cast a spell if you must–and the +1d6 is only against CE foes. Extra Smiting, on the other hand, will definitely help you leverage your high Charisma. I think Outcast Champion is a great idea for this character. I would suggest building something like– 1 Paladin: Improved Initiative 2 Paladin 3 Paladin: Improved Smiting (this is where you are right now, I assume?) 4 Paladin: retrain Improved Smiting to Sociable Personality 5 Fighter: Power Attack 6 Fighter: Weapon Focus, Divine Might, retrain Improved Initiative to True Believer 7 Pious Templar 8 Pious Templar 9 Pious Templar: Weapon Specialization, Weapon Mastery 10 Outcast Champion 11 Outcast Champion 12 Outcast Champion: Leadership 13 Outcast Champion 14 Pious Templar: Slashing Flurry (if you are using a slashing weapon) or Improved Toughness 15 Outcast Champion: Extra Smiting You'll notice an immediate gain in power once you get Divine Might, and Sociable Personality will improve your non-combat utility (free reroll on every Diplomacy check is great for a high-Cha half-elf Paladin...) By the time you reach level 9 you will not have any problems keeping up in combat, with Weapon Spec/Mastery, backup spells, and the ability to get some mileage out of your Wis and Cha; once you reach 12, you're ahead of the game. You might want to consider converting to the worship of a deity who favours a good two-handed martial weapon if you don't worship one already. The best low-level Paladin spells to memorize are Bless Weapon, Divine Sacrifice, Protection From Evil, Remove Paralysis, Lesser Restoration, Resurgence, and Zeal–but most of all Resurgence. Later in your career you'll find that the most dangerous effects are the ones with Will saves–and with your party-Will-boosting Outcast Champion aura and Resurgence you can provide strong protection against those. There's little worse than having your party meatgrinders dominated and turned against you.
BlackNova169 07-09-07, 04:45 PM	Wow thanks for the great response jstorrie! I am currently a paladin of St. Cuthbert, although I am leaning towards Ehlonna due to my prolonged time in the Vesve (Father from Furyondy, mother from Highfolk/vesve) and in an attempt to get a special mission with access to a unicorn mount. My lvl 1 feat is imp init, but my GM let me switch my lvl 3 Imp. Smiting to power attack since I only played one mod with it and never used it. I was planning on going to Pal 5 (6 if I do get access to unicorn) for the special mount. I'm going to take a look at pious templar though. This is my first LG character and I'm not familiar with alot of the newer books, but you've given me alot of new stuff to look up, especially Sociable Personality, which sounds pretty cool. I don't know what Resurgence or Zeal do either, or what book they're from, but I'll find it! Thanks again!
clannagh 07-10-07, 12:25 AM	Speaking of Bless Weapon and pally spells, what do you guys think are the best 1st & 2nd level spells for a paladin to memorize? At 4th level I get my one whooping spell and I was thinking of memorizing Bless Weapon. Are there any other good Open access paladin spells (1st & 2nd lvl), especially ones not in the PHB? And are there any good ones to get access to (Rhino Rush is one i'm looking to get). My paladin goes the high risk route and casts divine sacrifice and shares it with her mount givng a silly number of dice damage per round when they both hit .. so far she hasnt killed herself or her mount from her own damage but it has come close.
AlfredWAB 07-13-07, 07:45 PM	My paladin goes the high risk route and casts divine sacrifice and shares it with her mount givng a silly number of dice damage per round when they both hit .. so far she hasnt killed herself or her mount from her own damage but it has come close. My Paladin is now 10th level (Straight Paladin) Divine Sacrifice is my favorite 1st level Spell! But I don't share it with my mount. He usually gets dismissed and I'd prefer that to be as late as possible. I lost him a few mods back from full health in a single round before I could dismiss him. I use it with a Rod of Extend, which allows me to take a round in the middle somewhere to recover and sacrifice some more. I have a Lay on Hands with 18 Charisma (+2 Cloak) and a "Helm of Glorious Recovery". I have access to "Rhino Rush" and really like that as well. That is my usual #2 spell as it is less effective without a mount. I keep a scroll of Prot from Evil. I only memorise Lesser Restoration when someone already has damage. I like Bless Weapon but only when I don't think I will be in an environment to make use of "Rhino Rush". :)
BlackNova169 07-18-07, 08:47 AM	I'm narrowed down my build to going Pal5 and then taking levels in Outcast Champion & Pious Templar, but I'm debating if I want to get 1 level in Templar for mettle early on (lvl 6 or 7) or if I should do OC first and pick up templar levels at lvl 10. I've heard alot of people say that mettle has saved them alot, but after looking though the PHB I didnt' find too many partial fort/will save spells (Biggest ones being cloudkill, harm, disintegrate). Is it worth it to sacrifice some damage (Mainly Divine Might) to get mettle early on, or is it more of a lifesaver at higher APL? So far I've only played up to APL4. Build 1: Early Mettle Pal1-5 of St. Cuthbert 6: Pious Templar 7-8: Outcast Champion Feats= (1) Weapon focus (Heavy Mace) or Weapon focus (Greatclub). Havn't decided on which yet. (Retrained from Imp Init) (3) Power Attack (Retrain to True Believer @ lvl5) (6) Power Attack (9) Divine Might Build 2: Later Mettle, earlier Divine Might Pal1-5 6-9 Outcast Champion 10+ Pious Templar Feats= (1) Weapon focus, as above. (3) Power Attack (6) Divine Might (9) True Believer Unless Mettle is truly amazing at lower APLs than 10, I'm thinking of going with the 2nd build. I havn't played past APL4 so far though, so if there's a good reason to get it earlier could one of you more experienced folks please point it out? I'm probably going to use a Heavy Mace since I can alternate between going 1h & Shield and using the mace 2h for extra power attacking, but I've been considering using a Greatclub as well. Just an idea bouncing around in my head: 1d10 Greatclub, Enlarge Person from my mage friend, Oil Of Shillelagh, and my greatclub ends up as a 4d8 weapon for a minute. Is it worth while to get a Mwk/enchanted 2h, or should I focus on a 1h that lets me alternate between my shield & 2h power attacking? Thanks for all the replies folks!
jstorrie 07-18-07, 03:57 PM	Mettle isn't worth delaying the Outcast Champion goodies, no. Take your Pious Templar levels so that you get Weapon Spec (and thus can take Weapon Mastery) at either level 9 or level 12; this will minimize your opportunity cost and ensure that you don't have any 'dead levels.'
BlackNova169 07-25-07, 04:21 PM	"Unicorns like to use their horn as a lance when charging the enemy." is in the description of a unicorn in the monster manual. It also does 1d8 damage, the same as a lance. On a charge would a unicorn deal double damage with their horn?
kenobi65 07-25-07, 04:40 PM	"Unicorns like to use their horn as a lance when charging the enemy." is in the description of a unicorn in the monster manual. It also does 1d8 damage, the same as a lance. On a charge would a unicorn deal double damage with their horn? Since that description could be considered flavor text, rather than actual rules text, I'd argue no (there isn't anything that specifically says "treat a unicorn's horn as a lance" or "a unicorn's horn does double damage on a charge"). You might get some DMs to let you have that one, but I'd definitely say ETV.
BlackNova169 07-27-07, 01:13 PM	Divine Sacrifice is my favorite 1st level Spell! But I don't share it with my mount. He usually gets dismissed and I'd prefer that to be as late as possible. I lost him a few mods back from full health in a single round before I could dismiss him. I use it with a Rod of Extend, which allows me to take a round in the middle somewhere to recover and sacrifice some more. I'm trying to determine exactly how divine sacrifice works. The spell reads (summarized) "Once per round as a free action you can sacrifice hp to deal damage. Your ability to deal this extra damage ends when you successfully attack or the spell duration ends." The way I thought it worked (at 8th level paladin, 4round duration): Round 1: Cast spell. Sacrifice HP. Round 2: Hit for extra damage, Sac HP. Round 3: Hit for extra damage, Sac HP. Round 4: Hit for extra damage. Total: 30HP sacrificed, 15d6 extra. However in the spell description an example is given, where an 8th lvl paladin sacrifices 40HP to deal 5d6 for four rounds. This means that the extra 'hit' came on the 5th round. Example in book: Round 1: Cast spell. Sacrifice HP. Round 2: Hit for extra damage, Sac HP. Round 3: Hit for extra damage, Sac HP. Round 4: Hit for extra damage, Sac HP. Round 5: Hit for extra damage. Total 40HP sacrificed, 20d6 extra PER example given in the book. My main question is this: Even though the spell expires on the 4th round, can you still sacrifice HP on the 4th round and then hit on the 5th round for the extra damage? This is what the example in the book would indicate happening, unless my understanding of round duration spells is wrong. My paladin is lvl 4 right now, so I'm trying to determine if I can get one or two attacks with the extra damage. Thanks
Evanta 07-27-07, 08:49 PM	You only lose HP when you make the attack, it is not automatic per round. At least that's how I read the ability.
CdrcJsn 07-27-07, 09:24 PM	I think you can sacrifice HP only once per round, but there is no restriction on when you do damage, so it's possible to do 10d6 in one round. 1) Cast Spell, free action sacrifice hp 2) Attack and do 5d6, free action sacrifice hp, iterative or haste attack for another 5d6 3) free action sacrifice hp, attack for 5d6 4) free action sacrifice hp, attack for 5d6
CdrcJsn 07-27-07, 09:25 PM	I think you can sacrifice HP only once per round, but there is no restriction on when you do damage, so it's possible to do 10d6 in one round. 1) Cast Spell, free action sacrifice hp 2) Attack and do 5d6, free action sacrifice hp, iterative or haste attack for another 5d6 3) free action sacrifice hp, attack for 5d6 4) free action sacrifice hp, attack for 5d6 I think "Your ability to deal this extra damage ends when you successfully attack or the spell duration ends," precludes using the extra damage on round 5 even if you did sacrifice on round 4.
BlackNova169 07-29-07, 07:35 PM	Ah, that's it Cdrcjsn, I totally missed having multiple attacks in the second round. Thanks, it makes alot more sense now.
copper_wyrmling 07-30-07, 12:28 AM	Er... you're not using the Complete Divine version of Divine Sacrifice, are you? That version is obsolete iirc: it was updated (and rewritten) in the Spell Compendium. It now has a duration of rounds / level, and your first attack each round while the spell is active deals extra damage and you take damage (whether or not the attack was successful). It's also not dismissable, so you want to be careful when you use it (you don't get a choice about whether or not you deal extra damage and take damage - both happen automatically).
clannagh 07-30-07, 12:44 AM	Er... you're not using the Complete Divine version of Divine Sacrifice, are you? That version is obsolete iirc: it was updated (and rewritten) in the Spell Compendium. It now has a duration of rounds / level, and your first attack each round while the spell is active deals extra damage and you take damage (whether or not the attack was successful). It's also not dismissable, so you want to be careful when you use it (you don't get a choice about whether or not you deal extra damage and take damage - both happen automatically). Thats the version I have been using Copper .. automatically take 10 hp damage if you choose to attack and if your first attack hits add 5d6 damage to that attack only. If your first attack misses take 10 damage but deal no extra damage. If you share it .. same rules for your mount. I have however wondered RAW-wise what happens when you lay on hands :)
BlackNova169 07-30-07, 01:34 PM	I did not know there was an updated version in SpC, and its alot more restrictive as well. Doesn't look like I'll be using it much then. Thanks for letting me know that it was changed though.