Help me make a suboptimal cleric playable [Archive] - Wizards Community

Help me make a suboptimal cleric playable [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
wooti
06-19-07, 07:37 PM I need some help, I have a general concept but the PrC will lose caster levels and want to try to make the most of the levels I have so as to be drag on the party.

My concept is a cleric of Istus (Baklunish goddess of Fate and destiny) who believes he is the purely a tool of Istus. He will do any mission for no reward because he believes if he asked to do something it is Istus's instructions (this includes potentially doing occasional evil action (as long as they aren’t so bad as to get the character removed)).

The class levels I want are:
Cleric 5 (Luck and Destiny (or oracle))
Fortune’s friend 4
Fate spinner 4
Contemplative 2

Additionally I want to be human (Baklunish) and true neutral.

Fortune’s friend losses me two caster levels which are probably not made up for in its abilities. So the challenge is find a place where I can contribute to party with out being too suboptimal. I was thinking that a combat build using divine power might work, I’m not sure that a blaster style will work with lost levels but I might be able to debuff using funky abilities to make my opponents fail their saves. Can anyone give me advice (I’m not going for the cheesiest build just one that can hold its own).
King Kashue
06-19-07, 07:45 PM Well, you've got some serious issues.

The biggest is that you don't qualify for Fate Spinner.

It requires you to be able to cast 4th level arcane spells. You can't cast arcane spells at all :D

Second, you've got to get access for Contemplative, and considering Istus has very little to do with the world unless He Who Shall Not be Named risks exposure, you're going to have a hard time meeting that requirement (so I wouldn't plan on it).

Given that, I'm not sure I can suggest much, since anything I suggest will be significantly different, and likely wouldn't be much like what you are thinking.
Lupo
06-19-07, 08:01 PM I need some help, I have a general concept but the PrC will lose caster levels and want to try to make the most of the levels I have so as to be drag on the party.

My concept is a cleric of Istus (Baklunish goddess of Fate and destiny) who believes he is the purely a tool of Istus. He will do any mission for no reward because he believes if he asked to do something it is Istus's instructions (this includes potentially doing occasional evil action (as long as they aren’t so bad as to get the character removed)).

The class levels I want are:
Cleric 5 (Luck and Destiny (or oracle))
Fortune’s friend 4
Fate spinner 4
Contemplative 2

Additionally I want to be human (Baklunish) and true neutral.

Fortune’s friend losses me two caster levels which are probably not made up for in its abilities. So the challenge is find a place where I can contribute to party with out being too suboptimal. I was thinking that a combat build using divine power might work, I’m not sure that a blaster style will work with lost levels but I might be able to debuff using funky abilities to make my opponents fail their saves. Can anyone give me advice (I’m not going for the cheesiest build just one that can hold its own).

it will be hard to be a frontliner . . . to many zero BAB levels and to many levels with low HP increase. might be possible to be an archer - but he will never be a really effective archer.

being two caster levels behind is hard, especially for a divine caster . . . concentrate on buff spells for your party and de-buffs for the enemy.

prestige classing - apart from radiant servant of rotten milk - is the end of all turning undead, so take a divine feat that works fine for your build,

if you have high charisma, "divine ward" from PHB II is excellent - even better if you can spare an extra feat on "extra turning"

"divine fortune" from PHB II might be the best "in character" choice - and not so bad at all. it is an immediate action that burns 1 turn attempt and grants you +4 on your next save and lasts until the start of your next turn or until you have to make a save.

ciao

martin m.
wooti
06-19-07, 08:21 PM Well, you've got some serious issues.

The biggest is that you don't qualify for Fate Spinner.

It requires you to be able to cast 4th level arcane spells. You can't cast arcane spells at all :D

I trying to do from memory I thought Fate spinner had a divine alternative, or maybe that was just for a home game. I guess that destroys the whole build I could do it with fate spinner but it'll be even more suboptimal. Can anyone suggest a nice flavour appropriate replacement?

Second, you've got to get access for Contemplative, and considering Istus has very little to do with the world unless He Who Shall Not be Named risks exposure, you're going to have a hard time meeting that requirement (so I wouldn't plan on it).

Yeah very aware of that, contemplative levels can be replaced cleric levels or another PrC. It is also possible that if I play the character a bit with triad GMing they might approve a special mission (something I wouldn't expect given the nature of Istus).

Given that, I'm not sure I can suggest much, since anything I suggest will be significantly different, and likely wouldn't be much like what you are thinking.

Feel free to suggest, I can always disagree, the concept is what is important how I put it together is still very very up in the air.
Nutation
06-19-07, 08:33 PM Can anyone suggest a nice flavour appropriate replacement?

Divine Oracle? Costs a feat, arguably gives more to a wizard than a cleric, but has the right flavo[u]r.
UMiskatonic
06-19-07, 10:34 PM I like Divine Oracle as well, it fits Istus pretty well.

Clergy of Istus are not known for their battle prowess. They -do- know what's going on, however.

One way to emulate that might be a good INT score. You could know a lot of languages, and have the INT skills to know whatever the party happens to need.

It makes sense that Clergy of Istus are good at planning ahead. You could take something like Scribe Scroll or Brew Potion, and hand out useful items to the group at the beginning of adventures. Craft Wand is good for this as well, can't have too many charges of Lesser Restoration.

You could also use skill points to have some decent diplomacy/sense motive skills. That's another area where you can make a difference, many parties are really horrible at this, and its not too hard to be acceptably good at Diplomacy as a cleric.

I would recommend a buffer cleric, possibly with Imp. Initiative and maybe the 'reroll an initiative check' feat. You should go first, you know what's coming. Good spot and listen help here, and they are wisdom-based, so you'll be okay even cross classed. You might only want spot, if skill points are getting tight.

Finally, remember those Divination abilities. In some ways, you can serve as a rogue with spells like Detect Secret Doors and Detect Magic. Instead of sneaking ahead, just use Scry or Clairvoyance to detect from your room at the tavern. And Locate Object can serve as your Search check. Omen of Peril will sorta hint at traps, etc.
King Kashue
06-19-07, 10:54 PM Instead of sneaking ahead, just use Scry

Good ideas in general, just a note here. Scry has a casting time of 1 hour and a 100g divine focus (or a 1000g arcane focus).
boogahwoof
06-20-07, 03:02 AM Actually in the new LGCS (page32) Contemplative is now a open class
_metz_
06-20-07, 03:07 AM Actually in the new LGCS (page32) Contemplative is now a open class

Check Page 11:

--> Contemplative: This class requires campaign documentation, such as an AR entry or metaorg.

ALWAYS check the class clarification section as well as the appendix :)
King Kashue
06-20-07, 03:08 AM Actually in the new LGCS (page32) Contemplative is now a open class

Check page 11.

Contemplative: This class requires campaign documentation, such as an AR entry or metaorg.

The class is open, but you still need to meet the requirement of contact with a deity or their representative.

Edit: Damn you Metz, beat me!!! :D
_metz_
06-20-07, 03:11 AM Check page 11.

Contemplative: This class requires campaign documentation, such as an AR entry or metaorg.

The class is open, but you still need to meet the requirement of contact with a deity or their representative.

Edit: Damn you Metz, beat me!!! :D

Hehehe :)

On another note.

A cleric who doesn't have turning that goes up IS suboptimal. If all it gets is caster progression.

A cleric that lsoes out on caster progression and doesn't replace it with a decent other ability (e.g: the ability to fight) Then it is unwise.

Best thing to do is go Divine Oracle and Contemplative (with a special mission) and that would be in character, as well as keeping you cleric extremely useful.
Mommy was an Orc
06-20-07, 08:04 AM I trying to do from memory I thought Fate spinner had a divine alternative, or maybe that was just for a home game. I guess that destroys the whole build I could do it with fate spinner but it'll be even more suboptimal. Can anyone suggest a nice flavour appropriate replacement?

I guess it depends on how attached you are to Istus - Divine Prankster might make a good choice, especially Zagyg. Cleric 5/Fortune's Friend 4/Divine Prankster 6 would make for a highly skilled caster.
ShinAkuma2
06-20-07, 01:38 PM Oh, I can help you make a suboptimal cleric!

[reads the rest of the title]

Oh...Never mind, then.

One thing to consider is, as a Cleric, no matter what your other jobs are, the party will turn to you for healing. Your healing capability should always be a concern, and as such you might want to look into feats (even if you only take one or two) that help you to heal.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
wooti 06-19-07, 07:37 PM	I need some help, I have a general concept but the PrC will lose caster levels and want to try to make the most of the levels I have so as to be drag on the party. My concept is a cleric of Istus (Baklunish goddess of Fate and destiny) who believes he is the purely a tool of Istus. He will do any mission for no reward because he believes if he asked to do something it is Istus's instructions (this includes potentially doing occasional evil action (as long as they aren’t so bad as to get the character removed)). The class levels I want are: Cleric 5 (Luck and Destiny (or oracle)) Fortune’s friend 4 Fate spinner 4 Contemplative 2 Additionally I want to be human (Baklunish) and true neutral. Fortune’s friend losses me two caster levels which are probably not made up for in its abilities. So the challenge is find a place where I can contribute to party with out being too suboptimal. I was thinking that a combat build using divine power might work, I’m not sure that a blaster style will work with lost levels but I might be able to debuff using funky abilities to make my opponents fail their saves. Can anyone give me advice (I’m not going for the cheesiest build just one that can hold its own).
King Kashue 06-19-07, 07:45 PM	Well, you've got some serious issues. The biggest is that you don't qualify for Fate Spinner. It requires you to be able to cast 4th level arcane spells. You can't cast arcane spells at all :D Second, you've got to get access for Contemplative, and considering Istus has very little to do with the world unless He Who Shall Not be Named risks exposure, you're going to have a hard time meeting that requirement (so I wouldn't plan on it). Given that, I'm not sure I can suggest much, since anything I suggest will be significantly different, and likely wouldn't be much like what you are thinking.
Lupo 06-19-07, 08:01 PM	I need some help, I have a general concept but the PrC will lose caster levels and want to try to make the most of the levels I have so as to be drag on the party. My concept is a cleric of Istus (Baklunish goddess of Fate and destiny) who believes he is the purely a tool of Istus. He will do any mission for no reward because he believes if he asked to do something it is Istus's instructions (this includes potentially doing occasional evil action (as long as they aren’t so bad as to get the character removed)). The class levels I want are: Cleric 5 (Luck and Destiny (or oracle)) Fortune’s friend 4 Fate spinner 4 Contemplative 2 Additionally I want to be human (Baklunish) and true neutral. Fortune’s friend losses me two caster levels which are probably not made up for in its abilities. So the challenge is find a place where I can contribute to party with out being too suboptimal. I was thinking that a combat build using divine power might work, I’m not sure that a blaster style will work with lost levels but I might be able to debuff using funky abilities to make my opponents fail their saves. Can anyone give me advice (I’m not going for the cheesiest build just one that can hold its own). it will be hard to be a frontliner . . . to many zero BAB levels and to many levels with low HP increase. might be possible to be an archer - but he will never be a really effective archer. being two caster levels behind is hard, especially for a divine caster . . . concentrate on buff spells for your party and de-buffs for the enemy. prestige classing - apart from radiant servant of rotten milk - is the end of all turning undead, so take a divine feat that works fine for your build, if you have high charisma, "divine ward" from PHB II is excellent - even better if you can spare an extra feat on "extra turning" "divine fortune" from PHB II might be the best "in character" choice - and not so bad at all. it is an immediate action that burns 1 turn attempt and grants you +4 on your next save and lasts until the start of your next turn or until you have to make a save. ciao martin m.
wooti 06-19-07, 08:21 PM	Well, you've got some serious issues. The biggest is that you don't qualify for Fate Spinner. It requires you to be able to cast 4th level arcane spells. You can't cast arcane spells at all :D I trying to do from memory I thought Fate spinner had a divine alternative, or maybe that was just for a home game. I guess that destroys the whole build I could do it with fate spinner but it'll be even more suboptimal. Can anyone suggest a nice flavour appropriate replacement? Second, you've got to get access for Contemplative, and considering Istus has very little to do with the world unless He Who Shall Not be Named risks exposure, you're going to have a hard time meeting that requirement (so I wouldn't plan on it). Yeah very aware of that, contemplative levels can be replaced cleric levels or another PrC. It is also possible that if I play the character a bit with triad GMing they might approve a special mission (something I wouldn't expect given the nature of Istus). Given that, I'm not sure I can suggest much, since anything I suggest will be significantly different, and likely wouldn't be much like what you are thinking. Feel free to suggest, I can always disagree, the concept is what is important how I put it together is still very very up in the air.
Nutation 06-19-07, 08:33 PM	Can anyone suggest a nice flavour appropriate replacement? Divine Oracle? Costs a feat, arguably gives more to a wizard than a cleric, but has the right flavo[u]r.
UMiskatonic 06-19-07, 10:34 PM	I like Divine Oracle as well, it fits Istus pretty well. Clergy of Istus are not known for their battle prowess. They -do- know what's going on, however. One way to emulate that might be a good INT score. You could know a lot of languages, and have the INT skills to know whatever the party happens to need. It makes sense that Clergy of Istus are good at planning ahead. You could take something like Scribe Scroll or Brew Potion, and hand out useful items to the group at the beginning of adventures. Craft Wand is good for this as well, can't have too many charges of Lesser Restoration. You could also use skill points to have some decent diplomacy/sense motive skills. That's another area where you can make a difference, many parties are really horrible at this, and its not too hard to be acceptably good at Diplomacy as a cleric. I would recommend a buffer cleric, possibly with Imp. Initiative and maybe the 'reroll an initiative check' feat. You should go first, you know what's coming. Good spot and listen help here, and they are wisdom-based, so you'll be okay even cross classed. You might only want spot, if skill points are getting tight. Finally, remember those Divination abilities. In some ways, you can serve as a rogue with spells like Detect Secret Doors and Detect Magic. Instead of sneaking ahead, just use Scry or Clairvoyance to detect from your room at the tavern. And Locate Object can serve as your Search check. Omen of Peril will sorta hint at traps, etc.
King Kashue 06-19-07, 10:54 PM	Instead of sneaking ahead, just use Scry Good ideas in general, just a note here. Scry has a casting time of 1 hour and a 100g divine focus (or a 1000g arcane focus).
boogahwoof 06-20-07, 03:02 AM	Actually in the new LGCS (page32) Contemplative is now a open class
_metz_ 06-20-07, 03:07 AM	Actually in the new LGCS (page32) Contemplative is now a open class Check Page 11: --> Contemplative: This class requires campaign documentation, such as an AR entry or metaorg. ALWAYS check the class clarification section as well as the appendix :)
King Kashue 06-20-07, 03:08 AM	Actually in the new LGCS (page32) Contemplative is now a open class Check page 11. Contemplative: This class requires campaign documentation, such as an AR entry or metaorg. The class is open, but you still need to meet the requirement of contact with a deity or their representative. Edit: Damn you Metz, beat me!!! :D
_metz_ 06-20-07, 03:11 AM	Check page 11. Contemplative: This class requires campaign documentation, such as an AR entry or metaorg. The class is open, but you still need to meet the requirement of contact with a deity or their representative. Edit: Damn you Metz, beat me!!! :D Hehehe :) On another note. A cleric who doesn't have turning that goes up IS suboptimal. If all it gets is caster progression. A cleric that lsoes out on caster progression and doesn't replace it with a decent other ability (e.g: the ability to fight) Then it is unwise. Best thing to do is go Divine Oracle and Contemplative (with a special mission) and that would be in character, as well as keeping you cleric extremely useful.
Mommy was an Orc 06-20-07, 08:04 AM	I trying to do from memory I thought Fate spinner had a divine alternative, or maybe that was just for a home game. I guess that destroys the whole build I could do it with fate spinner but it'll be even more suboptimal. Can anyone suggest a nice flavour appropriate replacement? I guess it depends on how attached you are to Istus - Divine Prankster might make a good choice, especially Zagyg. Cleric 5/Fortune's Friend 4/Divine Prankster 6 would make for a highly skilled caster.
ShinAkuma2 06-20-07, 01:38 PM	Oh, I can help you make a suboptimal cleric! [reads the rest of the title] Oh...Never mind, then. One thing to consider is, as a Cleric, no matter what your other jobs are, the party will turn to you for healing. Your healing capability should always be a concern, and as such you might want to look into feats (even if you only take one or two) that help you to heal.