Post/Author/DateTime	Post
lseelba 05-30-07, 06:20 PM	I'm new to LG, but I took the time to read through the LGCS and all the FAQs. I am trying to build a druid but I need help from people who actually have experience with druids and LG. My original idea was a wild shaped focused druid but all the errata/LG not adopting errata has me VERY confused. This is from 'Dispel Confusion' ironically enough: "Q: Recently, there was a substantial amount of errata issued regarding the polymorph family of spells, and abilities that let characters change form. How is the Living Greyhawk campaign handling this? A: Unlike other pieces of official errata, the Living Greyhawk campaign will not be adopting any of the changes that came about from the polymorph errata update. Listed below are the books used in the campaign, and the pieces of errata that are not adopted for Living Greyhawk play. Note that all other official errata is used, unless an exception (such as this one) is noted. * Player’s Handbook: Wild shape (pg. 37) (SNIP)" So when a druid wild shapes, doe his HP change based on the new forms CON? Would Druid X/Monk 1 be a good build, or have they nerfed Wild Shape somewhere else I haven't noticed. Its pretty key to my entire build as currently I have STR 8, DEX 8, CON 10, Wis 18, Int 14, Cha 12. Also, the first adventure I'm playing in is called "Rallying Point for the Bright Sands". I understand their might be some special Bright Sands druid rules and I would like to make a wastelands druid or whatever it is called if it is possible. I don't know if my home region has any bearing on character creation either but I live in Arizona (which is the desert too ;) ). Finally, I was planning on maxing out Handle Animal so that I could rear some animals (one for combat, some others non-combat). How does LG handle this? Do I just spend a TU and say I have been hunting for a wild animal to rear? According to the PHB you can rear three of the same kind at once, so that would give me three chances to pass the rear animal check. Can I take a 10 on the rear check? Thanks in advance...hopefully I can figure out these character creation issues quickly.
UMiskatonic 05-30-07, 06:39 PM	Ok, lot of questions, but I'll try. I am not any kind of expert at all, and make the occasional mistake. 1) Regions are important in LG. Arizona is Nyrond. Local regional games will be set in Nyrond, and it's the most logical place to have your first LG character. It is legal to have a character from another region, but it's harder (may not be a citizen, may not own property, results may vary...) Find out more here: http://www.nyrond.org/turbine/page/nyr/ 2) The Bright Sands adventure (mod) you are about to play is part 7 of 11. Some of the earlier adventures have retired, so you will never get to play them. Sorry. If you HAD played part 1 or 2, you could have been a wasteland druid. That option is now closed. EDIT: I am no longer sure that this is true. The LGCS 7.5 says that you can make a bright sands character, but the Bright Sands sourcebook (p.2) says that you can only use the Bright Sands options if the first adventure is Core 5-06. The Bright sands sourcebook then promptly contradicts itself, and says any adventure in the series would be fine. I would ignore the contradictory document, and go ahead and make the character. 3) That said, a normal druid is still a really good character. Make yourself a druid from Nyrond, and play all of the Bright Sands adventures that you want.
UMiskatonic 05-30-07, 06:43 PM	There is a chunk on the LGCS about training animals. It's a good move, and it does cost a TU, last time that I looked. You'll need your upcoming judge to sign off on this, so roll in front of them. Yes, you can buy a lot of animals and train them. Unfortunately, this can work against you. If you have TOO many animals (or such powerful animals), you'll be treated as more powerful than you actually are. That will make the adventure more difficult. So, the trick is to bring the right amount to be helpful, but not so many that the adventure difficulty goes up. This will mean that the number of trained animals with you will change from game to game. Your animal companion does NOT count in this calculation, you always get that.
bitznarf 05-30-07, 06:48 PM	The campaign has changed to use the Wildshape errata. Take a look at the revised willdshape rules here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#wildShape).
UMiskatonic 05-30-07, 06:54 PM	Wildshaping druid = sub-optimal idea I'm not saying you shouldn't do it. If this is a fun idea for you, then go for it. However, you won't be the most powerful druid on the block. It's also a bit more paperwork intensive, cuz you'll need the statistics for the 20 different critters that you can turn into. Look into the Nature's warrior and Warshaper prestige classes, and remember that Master of Many forms is now closed. First, it's a long way to level 5. Assigning your stats the way you have will make it harder to get to level 5. I would lower intelligence and have more constitution. Also, a 17 wisdom is just as good (push it up at 4th level), and would allow for more points where needed. Second, wildshaping now absorbs all of your gear. While becoming a wolf at level 5 isn't so bad, a polar bear just isn't as good as an 8th level fighter with magic full plate and a flaming sword. At 14th level, you'll be substantially behind. However, you can still cast spells like a druid 14, so that's how you catch up. Remember that your animal shapes will need spell backup to compete well.
bitznarf 05-30-07, 06:56 PM	Wildshaping druid = sub-optimal idea Wildshaped focused is *maybe* sub-optimal. With Natural Spell as a possibility wildshaping is still very viable, if paperwork intense as you said.
lseelba 05-30-07, 07:30 PM	The campaign has changed to use the Wildshape errata. Take a look at the revised willdshape rules here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#wildShape). Just curious where does it say that the campaign now uses Wildshape errata? All I found was that "Dispel Confusion" which says it does not use it, and the section in the LGCS which says the campaign does use the polymorph errata, but the spell suite is closed (which makes little sense...why bother to apply the errata if the spells are closed anyway) Polymorph: LG uses the errata to polymorphing spells and effects. Because of this, the spells alter self, polymorph, polymorph any object, and shapechange and the prestige class Master of Many Forms are Closed. You all can probaly see why I'm confused about Wild Shape in LG.
pedr 05-30-07, 07:36 PM	There is no errata to polymorph/alter self/etc. There's errata to everything in the core rules which reference polymorph, creating new rules for them to follow instead of polymorph. That's what's generally referred to as the 'polymorph errata' although that's a misnomer. At first, LG continued to have druids' wildshape and various monster abilities reference polymorph, despite the official version of the D&D rules no longer doing so. That's no longer the case: LG uses the official version of the rules now.
lseelba 05-30-07, 08:14 PM	There is no errata to polymorph/alter self/etc. There's errata to everything in the core rules which reference polymorph, creating new rules for them to follow instead of polymorph. That's what's generally referred to as the 'polymorph errata' although that's a misnomer. At first, LG continued to have druids' wildshape and various monster abilities reference polymorph, despite the official version of the D&D rules no longer doing so. That's no longer the case: LG uses the official version of the rules now. Ah thank you Pedro. They really need to update that old "Dispel Confusion" article. So without Wild Shape's boost to hp, I really have to change my ability scores. I'll just go summoning druid since a wild shaping druid is significantly worse with the Wild Shape errata (which I thought LG did not use because of that Dispel Confusion). Here is what I'm thinking so far feat wise: Race (Human) - Druid 15 1-Improved Init, Scribe Scroll 2 3-CWI 4-Refocus Improved Init to Spell Focus (Conj) [4 TU and 400 gp] 5-Refocus CWI to Augment Summoning [4 TU and 500 gp plus all money saved] 6-Rapid Spell, Refocus Scribe Scroll to Metamagic School Focus (Conj) [4 TU and 600 gp plus all money saved, I would have had opportunity to scribe level 3 spells if needed] 7- 8- 9-Empower Spell 10-15 (other stuff) Feat wise, how does this look? Am I shooting myself in the foot by refocusing so much? Is two levels with CWI enough to craft some decent stuff at that level? I'll post ability scores and skills later but I wanted to get some input on feats.
lseelba 05-30-07, 08:29 PM	Ok, lot of questions, but I'll try. I am not any kind of expert at all, and make the occasional mistake. 1) Regions are important in LG. Arizona is Nyrond. Local regional games will be set in Nyrond, and it's the most logical place to have your first LG character. It is legal to have a character from another region, but it's harder (may not be a citizen, may not own property, results may vary...) Find out more here: http://www.nyrond.org/turbine/page/nyr/ 2) The Bright Sands adventure (mod) you are about to play is part 7 of 11. Some of the earlier adventures have retired, so you will never get to play them. Sorry. If you HAD played part 1 or 2, you could have been a wasteland druid. That option is now closed. EDIT: I am no longer sure that this is true. The LGCS 7.5 says that you can make a bright sands character, but the Bright Sands sourcebook (p.2) says that you can only use the Bright Sands options if the first adventure is Core 5-06. The Bright sands sourcebook then promptly contradicts itself, and says any adventure in the series would be fine. I would ignore the contradictory document, and go ahead and make the character. 3) That said, a normal druid is still a really good character. Make yourself a druid from Nyrond, and play all of the Bright Sands adventures that you want. Thank you very much UM. So a Bright Sands character is from Bright Sands and not Nyrond? How does any Bright Sands character play in a regional in their region? However I have the feeling that most of the mods I'm going to play in are going to be Core, Core Special, or Adapted mods run online...so the draw to be a Bright Sands character is strong.
pedr 05-30-07, 08:51 PM	Just to point out that there is one way to play a character which comes from the Bright Sands even though the first module is no longer available. It's a suboptimal way though - it means using one of the Bright Sands fastplay characters and, unlike with Xen'drik, absolutely no re-tooling is required (athough you would be able to retrain feats and skills later on, you wouldn't be able to do anything about the distribution of stats). I'm not good enough at evaluating builds to give serious advice on whether the Druid fastplay is good or not - but it's a PH druid, not a Sandstorm onw. The only advantage to taking that, I think, would be giving you access to the Druid spells in Sandstorm which otherwise you won't be able to use. I wouldn't imagine that would be a significant enough trade-off against being able to create your character as you choose. Generally, all characters can play all modules regardless of home region. Home region dictates how many Time Units certain modules cost, and can have an effect on which meta-organisations a character can join and which regional feats a character has access to but - as you've noted - if you're not going to be playing face-to-face within your region much, it doesn't really make a great deal of difference. The only advantage you'd have if you could have chosen 'Bright Sands' as your home region would be saving 6TUs and 72gp over the year as the Bright Sands modules would cost you fewer TUs but that's a pretty negligible saving. Given the number of intro-type modules coming out this year (Scourge of the Howling Horde, Greyhawk Ruins to name two) you might well end up having to create two characters if you wanted to play everything regardless of TUs.
solbergb 05-30-07, 08:58 PM	So when a druid wild shapes, doe his HP change based on the new forms CON? Would Druid X/Monk 1 be a good build, or have they nerfed Wild Shape somewhere else I haven't noticed. Its pretty key to my entire build as currently I have STR 8, DEX 8, CON 10, Wis 18, Int 14, Cha 12. . The build you just did is pretty much a classic "pre-eratta" build. Modern druids need constitution, because hitpoints stay the same as you wildshape. The least intrusive change to your build would be to drop charisma to 8 and raise constitution to 14. (lowering intelligence shoots you in the foot socially - you can be a better diplomat by using the extra skill points to max diplomacy than you can by having a higher charisma) Wildshaping as a primary concept is still very powerful in the 8-15 game, but it works best if you pick a form and stay in it for long periods (to the extent of having ordinary barding, taking off necklace/cloak, shaping, putting them back on, etc). Rapid shifts in form only work well if you somehow get access to wilding clasps and wild armor, neither of which is guaranteed. While many have shifted to primarily "caster+companion" druids, you don't have to give up on it because it isn't as easy as it used to be. You still do the same things - you take natural spell, you learn the best combat forms, you pick feats that make those forms even better. Even if you do go the caster route, the dire bat form makes an excellent artillery platfoorm (it hovers for full round summons, it comes with decent armor class, it has a +6 dex mod for initiative and reflex saves, etc). The good news is that by the time you can wildshape, you'll have been playing LG for a year or so and will have had time to decide if your original concept is still what you want to do. With retraining in the game, early feat choices supporting a concept you no longer want to pursue are easily fixed. But you can't fix your attributes. As a default, most LG characters have 6 attribute points put in constitution. Those that don't are about evenly split between first time characters who wished they'd put more into constitution, people who knew they were introducing a weakness and are getting something else they really want in exchange. With 8 dex and 8 strength, you will have to emphasize your casting in the early levels, and with the limited # of spell slots druids get, that's going to mean a bit of an investment in scrolls. That's ok, it's a common strategy for low level casters with bad physical attributes. A more generalist druid would be able to do some melee or archery in the baby levels instead of spellcasting.
solbergb 05-30-07, 09:05 PM	For feats, I'd retrain less. Augment summoning helps out of the box. Rapid summon kick in at level 5, natural spell you can't take before level 6. The generic summoning druid feat selection is this: Human 1. spell focus, augment summon 3. rapid spell 6. natural spell 9. craft wonderous (by now, you'll have the cash and access to make good use of it) If you really want to do some earlier crafting, the main reason would be to get a pile of scrolls of non-DMG spells. To accomplish this, you'd do something like this. The difference between an augmented or not augmented wolf or eagle isn't that significant, so you can delay auggie summon till L3 1. spell focus, scribe scroll 3. augment summoning 5. retrain scribe scroll into rapid spell 6. natural spell That way you're only out 400gp plus the xp and time spent to make your druid spells...remembering you have to save up cash for the "second half" of the cost of the scrolls you created. If you want to be nonhuman, natural spell is best put off until level 9. It's really nice though, because the leapord has climb and 18 dex at level 5, and the dire bat has "good" flight and 22 dex at level 8, and both make fanstastic spell platforms if you've wildshaped well before any fighting and have juggled your equipment. Both are also much stronger, which helps with shadows, rays of enfeeblement, blasphemies and such that can cripple a str 8 character at times.
magebeast 05-30-07, 09:50 PM	Wildshaping druid = sub-optimal idea If you can swing access to some Wild enchants and the proper armor, and take levels in Warshaper and Nature's Warrior, Wildshaping Druids are definitely NOT suboptimal. Of course, you have to find access to Wild enchants, which can be an issue.
haferka 05-31-07, 02:29 AM	If you can swing access to some Wild enchants and the proper armor, and take levels in Warshaper and Nature's Warrior, Wildshaping Druids are definitely NOT suboptimal. Of course, you have to find access to Wild enchants, which can be an issue. Or.. pick up 2 levels of Monk.. and go Sacred Fist... who needs an armor bonus when you get to add your Wisdom.. and your dex... and natural armor.. and monk bonus ... and the armor bonus from the wizards mage armor spell... etc... If you could get a wilding clasp & a monks belt.. you could also get Wisdom to AC.. but I wouldnt count on it. As a druid .. I would try to get Extend Spell before 5th level.. that way you can cast "Extended Creeping Cold"... 3rd lvl equiv.. does 21d6 over the course of 6 rounds.. 1d6 each round.. increasing +1d6 every round... Extend is also rather handy with your buff spells. Natural spell is a Must if your are planning to wildshape... UNLESS.. you are going to get a special mission for the "Alternative Class Druid ability from PH2.. which gives you a series of alternative forms... (set abilities.. but you choose the visual apearance... and you can NOT use natural Spell to cast in this form).. oh.. and it unlimited uses per day... (so you dont need natural spell.. just shift back.. cast.. then shift again)...
lseelba 05-31-07, 02:39 AM	Or.. pick up 2 levels of Monk.. and go Sacred Fist... who needs an armor bonus when you get to add your Wisdom.. and your dex... and natural armor.. and monk bonus ... and the armor bonus from the wizards mage armor spell... etc... If you could get a wilding clasp & a monks belt.. you could also get Wisdom to AC.. but I wouldnt count on it. As a druid .. I would try to get Extend Spell before 5th level.. that way you can cast "Extended Creeping Cold"... 3rd lvl equiv.. does 21d6 over the course of 6 rounds.. 1d6 each round.. increasing +1d6 every round... Extend is also rather handy with your buff spells. Natural spell is a Must if your are planning to wildshape... UNLESS.. you are going to get a special mission for the "Alternative Class Druid ability from PH2.. which gives you a series of alternative forms... (set abilities.. but you choose the visual apearance... and you can NOT use natural Spell to cast in this form).. oh.. and it unlimited uses per day... (so you dont need natural spell.. just shift back.. cast.. then shift again)... At this point I'm not even sure I'm going to be wildshaping during combat. Seems to have some heavy drawbacks...mainly that I can't command my animal companion, I cannot communicate with the party to discuss tactics, and I lose all my magic items and use of scrolls (except a neck and cloak slot if I wild shape before combat and have someone put them on me). Are these things as big a problems as I'm imagining them to be?
jstorrie 05-31-07, 02:57 AM	You can always do a Stone Form / Nature's Warrior / Warshaper mix if you want to do a lot wildshaping and can't get the Wild enhancement stuff.
Timlagor 05-31-07, 06:12 AM	CWI is a feat you want to keep once you get it because you never stop using it and if you retrain out of it you have to pay back all your saved gold. Scribe Scroll and Craft Wand are excellent temporary crafting Feats for the extra access even though you have to pay back the saved gp. My recommendation for asummoner would be: Human 1. SF, Augment Summon (possibly SScroll and retrain into AS at 3rd) 3. CWI 6. Rapid Spell 9. Metamagic SF 12. Empower? 15 Quicken? I'd leave the Wildshape alone entirely in combat saving it for utility ...though Natural Spell is nice for those times you might have to fight in difficult locations... just not quite good enough imo I would not multi-classs I think there's also a new Feat that lets you cast a buff as part of your Summoning that you want if you can get it. Leaving CWI to 9th is not a terrible idea since you want the other FEats asap too but you can make good use of it from 3rd.
Rerednaw 05-31-07, 11:37 AM	...Here is what I'm thinking so far feat wise: Race (Human) - Druid 15 1-Improved Init, Scribe Scroll 2 3-CWI 4-Refocus Improved Init to Spell Focus (Conj) [4 TU and 400 gp] 5-Refocus CWI to Augment Summoning [4 TU and 500 gp plus all money saved] 6-Rapid Spell, Refocus Scribe Scroll to Metamagic School Focus (Conj) [4 TU and 600 gp plus all money saved, I would have had opportunity to scribe level 3 spells if needed] 7- 8- 9-Empower Spell 10-15 (other stuff) Feat wise, how does this look? Am I shooting myself in the foot by refocusing so much? Is two levels with CWI enough to craft some decent stuff at that level? I'll post ability scores and skills later but I wanted to get some input on feats. You do not have a lot of cash at low levels and your decision for CWI may really depend on your access at that level. Other than that I do not think you are really shooting yourself by retraining that much. I would probably consider having the Spell Focus and Augment a level or two earlier. Also consider delaying CWI until 6th or 9th as that's when you may start having cash and access rarely goes away (barring LGCS changes). Even without any changes, you will be a pretty solid build at level 6.
solbergb 05-31-07, 12:02 PM	At this point I'm not even sure I'm going to be wildshaping during combat. Seems to have some heavy drawbacks...mainly that I can't command my animal companion, I cannot communicate with the party to discuss tactics, and I lose all my magic items and use of scrolls (except a neck and cloak slot if I wild shape before combat and have someone put them on me). Are these things as big a problems as I'm imagining them to be? 1. You can command your animal companion. It is trained to respond to your grunts, squeals or whatever, plus with the bond it's tied to you anyway. Other animals, yeah, could be a problem. 2. You can't communicate with the party. This is the largest drawback of long term wildshaping. 3. neck, cloak and barding you can do if you shape before combat. Likewise slotless items (ioun stones) are ok, and things like pearls of power can be added to saddlebags or pouch around your neck or whatever. Scrolls and wands yeh, wildshape interferes. Are they a problem? Depends. My wife's druid is kind of feral anyway and often sulks in animal forms so she won't have to talk. My druid that intends to wildshape a lot is in "I'm on patrol" mode, usually sneaking ahead of the party so talking would be stupid for her. Both have plans to work out some nonverbal signals with the party for common communications. Neither character uses scrolls very much, and both have worked out how to function with minimal magic items. Frankly, the former is a spellcaster and until she runs out of slots she doesn't need the other toys. The latter is a melee bruiser who uses slots for self-buffs, mostly out of combat. Neither really use consumables much once they exit the first few levels (ie by the time they can wildshape most of the day, they're no longer using scrolls or wands in combat and often not even out of combat). If your druid is chatty and social, wildshaping will likely be an emergency measure, rather than a standard tactic.
lseelba 05-31-07, 07:26 PM	Thanks for all the help guys. Here is my final character (I can't change it after tonight though I still have a few hours :P). Human Druid 1 Str 9 Dex 10 Con 14 Wis 17 Int 14 Cha 8 Feats: Improved Initiative, Scribe Scroll (both will be retrained later) Skill Ranks: Max out: Concentration, Listen, Spot, Handle Animal, Diplomacy, Knowledge (nature), rest of points in Survival, Ride, and Spellcraft Riding Dog familiar with seven tricks: Attack, attack all, assist attack/flank, scent fighting, defend, guard, heel Equipment: Guard dog (25 gp), Hide Armor (15 gp), Heavy Wooden Shield (7 gp), club (free), dagger (2 gp), cheap gear costing less than one gp (like a sling and rocks, chalk, sack, etc.) I seriously thought about taking Spell Focus (conj) and augment summoning at first level, but its not that useful until mid levels. I need scribe scroll to keep me useful at the low levels, and improved initiative is just too good at its low cost (cost meaning what it costs me to retrain it at higher levels). Think about it...I'm paying 100 gp per level to get a +4 init on every encounter. Yeah I'd buy a similar magic item at that cost! I'm going to take CWI at 3rd or 6th and probably never retrain out of it. I'll just delay Metamagic School Focus (Conj) until 9th level. Thanks all and if you see any glaring mistakes please point them out quick :) Lou
solbergb 05-31-07, 07:53 PM	Looks ok to me. I also played a cleric with 9 strength and 17 wisdom, and it does help with carrying the armor and still being light load. I'm not as keen on improved init as you are, but it's a style thing and I can't really object to it. You've got a solid character there and will be able to grow it the way you want to, after you've had some experience with the campaign style.
Genghis Cohen 05-31-07, 08:46 PM	Since this is your first LG character, you need to consider TUs and play opportunities when deciding about MIC feats and retraining. There are a lot of mods that start at APL10. You might want to get your character as advanced as possible so that you can play those mods. Retraining and crafting will delay your ability to participate in those play opportunities.
Timlagor 05-31-07, 09:38 PM	The one thing I'd urge you to change is your equipment: buy some barding for the poor doggy -he'll out-tank any level 1 character easily. (drop the Guard Dog to do so if necessary..they're nothing like as good as Riding Dogs anyway)
lseelba 05-31-07, 10:13 PM	The one thing I'd urge you to change is your equipment: buy some barding for the poor doggy -he'll out-tank any level 1 character easily. (drop the Guard Dog to do so if necessary..they're nothing like as good as Riding Dogs anyway) As soon as I complete my first mod tonight barding is the first thing I'll buy. I only took the guard dog because I wanted a second animal and I knew I couldn't use Handle Animal to rear an animal before I started my first mod. Hopefully the DM will let me find and rear a decent animal at the end of this mod :D Also I'm taking your advice on feats you posted earlier. I aim to have all the summoning feats by level 6 (except metamagic spell focus which will be at 9)
clannagh 05-31-07, 10:18 PM	As soon as I complete my first mod tonight barding is the first thing I'll buy. I only took the guard dog because I wanted a second animal and I knew I couldn't use Handle Animal to rear an animal before I started my first mod. Hopefully the DM will let me find and rear a decent animal at the end of this mod :D Also I'm taking your advice on feats you posted earlier. I aim to have all the summoning feats by level 6 (except metamagic spell focus which will be at 9) If you are likely to play with a variety of GM's it might be a good idea to stick to either MC studded leather or MC mithral chain barding as neither of those have a check penalty. There is a lot of table variation about whether wardogs are proficient with barding and regardless of the 200 post threads on the issue, if the GM decides NO then your dog will take the armor check penalty of the barding against its attack rolls.
LGMoses 06-01-07, 01:57 AM	Don't worry about builds anymore than say 2 to 3 levels ahead and concentrate on making a character you know you're going to enjoy playing for a long long time.
catsclaw 06-01-07, 12:50 PM	As a druid .. I would try to get Extend Spell before 5th level.. that way you can cast "Extended Creeping Cold"... 3rd lvl equiv.. does 21d6 over the course of 6 rounds.. 1d6 each round.. increasing +1d6 every round...Expect Table Variation. It's far, far overpowered for a 3rd level spell if it's run this way, and the description of the spell is hardly unambiguous. I know at my tables the progression is either 123123, 123321, or 112233. 123456 is crazy overpowered, and I say this as someone who fought a druid run that way as APL 4. (And you could legally face a druid with it at APL 2).
solbergb 06-01-07, 02:03 PM	at my table it's 123333 but it hardly matters. Most fights don't last that long and PC's are expected to win. Such a combo is more problematic on NPC spellcasters. I'd rather somebody summoned a lion or dire wolf than cast an extended creeping cold. It'll do more damage AND interfere with the enemy/soak enemy attacks. Or if we're talking feats, a rapid dire hawk or hippogriff is much more useful to the party than an extended creeping cold.
Timlagor 06-01-07, 05:12 PM	You can buy leather barding for 20gp iirc. Well worth buying before the first adventure even if you move to chain shirt immediately after. Chain Shirt Barding is not so expensive that you'll regret the expense if you have to buy something lighter because the GM claims you're not "trained for war" -you'll miss the free trip checks a lot more.
lseelba 06-01-07, 08:35 PM	You can buy leather barding for 20gp iirc. Well worth buying before the first adventure even if you move to chain shirt immediately after. Chain Shirt Barding is not so expensive that you'll regret the expense if you have to buy something lighter because the GM claims you're not "trained for war" -you'll miss the free trip checks a lot more. It's odd that there would be table variation on this. Who better to train a riding dog for war than it's owner druid? Maybe if I put it on my trick list no DM would give me flack about it? Seriously...if a riding dog can be trained for war, a druid could do it. NINJA EDIT: also as far as table variation on extended creeping cold...yeah I would definitely see this. Personally as a DM I'd probably do 123333 but as a player I doubt I'll take extend spell so I'm not worried about it.
Timlagor 06-01-07, 10:26 PM	It's odd and aggravating but "trained for war" is not defined anywhere and the Circle have been told they are not allowed to make a ruling on it either. Many of us are hoping that the "Rules Compendium" will hold and answer. Many GMs will allow any dog with both the attack tricks to be considered trained for war but it's always possible you will come across one who won't.
clannagh 06-02-07, 02:39 AM	It's odd and aggravating but "trained for war" is not defined anywhere and the Circle have been told they are not allowed to make a ruling on it either. Many of us are hoping that the "Rules Compendium" will hold and answer. Many GMs will allow any dog with both the attack tricks to be considered trained for war but it's always possible you will come across one who won't. Its not just that, purchased mounts like warhorses and riding dogs are not specifically mentioned as "trained for war" either. There is a vague comment about them having " all the training needed for battle" or something like that (which I personally take as close enough) but a RAW based GM will not accept that because the specific words "trained for war" do not actually appear.
lseelba 06-06-07, 12:44 AM	If you are likely to play with a variety of GM's it might be a good idea to stick to either MC studded leather or MC mithral chain barding as neither of those have a check penalty. There is a lot of table variation about whether wardogs are proficient with barding and regardless of the 200 post threads on the issue, if the GM decides NO then your dog will take the armor check penalty of the barding against its attack rolls. I'll buy MW Chain Shirt Barding. If a GM makes me take the AC penalty thats only -1...if they let me be proficient, then thats gravy. Ninja Edit: Maybe not...does MW Chain Shirt Barding cost 350 gp or 500 gp? There is no clear way to read it in the PHB.
Herrbard 06-06-07, 07:38 AM	350 gp for medium size chain shirt barding.
solbergb 06-06-07, 10:44 AM	and the reason it is 350, is the masterwork fee is a flat fee (150gp) no matter how expensive the base armor is. masterwork leather is +150gp. Masterwork fullplate is +150 gp. Masterwork exotic barding for a gargantuan dragon is +150gp. Masterwork barding for a tiny bat is +150gp. It's a "service charge" not a "material charge". The price you pay for a craftsman's time who is skilled enough to do the work.
lseelba 06-06-07, 02:52 PM	and the reason it is 350, is the masterwork fee is a flat fee (150gp) no matter how expensive the base armor is. masterwork leather is +150gp. Masterwork fullplate is +150 gp. Masterwork exotic barding for a gargantuan dragon is +150gp. Masterwork barding for a tiny bat is +150gp. It's a "service charge" not a "material charge". The price you pay for a craftsman's time who is skilled enough to do the work. Aren't only mounts eligible for barding? I'd say tiny bat is pushing it...
solbergb 06-06-07, 03:07 PM	creatures smaller than "small" are limited in how much protection they can get from armor. But they are allowed to have armor. There is a rule somewhere, I don't remember off the top of my head where. You won't see any fullplate bats, but I think leather barding is still possible. Bats are diminuative actually...
Lupo 06-06-07, 03:34 PM	creatures smaller than "small" are limited in how much protection they can get from armor. But they are allowed to have armor. There is a rule somewhere, I don't remember off the top of my head where. You won't see any fullplate bats, but I think leather barding is still possible. Bats are diminuative actually... i am sticking post-its to my druid character sheet all over: buy masterwork sharkskin armor for yourself :) buy masterwork sharkskin barding for your tiger ;) buy masterwork sharkskin barding for your teddy bear :D buy masterwork sharkskin barding for your dire bat :P and bring it along - even when having another animal companion damn, my druid so LONGS to get access to girallons blessing :schemes: ciao martin m.