Help with a half-orc monk [Archive] - Wizards Community

Help with a half-orc monk [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tav_Behemoth
05-30-07, 04:21 PM I've been having fun with my first two levels of big, dumb monk, when there are lots of Small (and even Tiny) critters to grapple, but I'm concerned about keeping pace when monsters much bigger and dumber than me start making an appearance. Here's what I have so far:

Half-orc Str 18 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 6 Wis 14 Cha 6
Monk

1 Monk Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Dodge
2 Monk Feats: Combat Reflexes

Skills: Tumble 5 ranks, Sense Motive 5 ranks

I've been thinking about adding a level of cleric (strength domain for Enlarge Person) and a couple of levels of fighter, but am unsure where to take it from there. Suggestions welcome!
TWG_Prometheus
05-30-07, 04:32 PM To be perfectly honest, I wouldn't worry too much about the things that are way bigger and/or way stronger than you are. At least...not in terms of being able to grapple them. It's cool to be the big grapple guy for a party, but there are times when you should recognize that you're outmatched, and that you're supposed to be outmatched. The answer to every encounter shouldn't be to move right to your primary attack form.

That said, you don't have to go without preparation for the times when the grapple checks are closer.

I would drop the idea of going into a caster class. They don't actually do anything to help you do what you want to do. You can get a size bump, but there are other ways to accomplish that without losing your focus.

* Find a ranged solution. You'll need it. With your strength, shuriken might actually work but likely it'll need to have a bigger range increment.
* Get some scrolls and/or a wand of Enlarge Person. Somebody around should be able to use it for you when the situation calls for it.

Stick with monk or fade over into Fighter after you get Ki Strike(Magic).
amnuxoll
05-30-07, 04:39 PM If you're intent on grappling everything you can get into Reaping Mauler of course.

Monks get pretty awesome starting aroung 10th level. You've got a good build started here. Don't wreck it by going cleric.
Mommy was an Orc
05-30-07, 05:29 PM Things I'd do:
Spiked Chain - yes, you're non-proficient, but it means you get to swing at anything moving near you. One of the three biggest mistakes I see Monks make is giving up free attacks for almost no reason.

Shuriken - when you find yourself not near enough to attack anyone, you can draw one as a free action and toss it.

Oil of Shillalagh - 50 gp oil that turns your Quarterstaff into something you can flurry with and do 2d6+5 per swing.

-----

One thing I'd do when you hit 3rd level is retrain Improved Grapple into Stunning Fist and take Improved Grapple as your 3rd level feat. Stunning Fist is pretty useful as a 14 Wisdom Monk who expects to hit. Then at level 4, retrain Dodge into a feat chain you expect to take.

I'd stick with Monk - it is pretty effective - especially when half your party members can cast Mage Armor :)

Andy
bitznarf
05-30-07, 06:02 PM During a mini-mission for an interactive 2 weeks ago I was on 'team monk': we had 3 monks at the table. Stunning and tripping the Huge Advanced Half Dragon Otyugh is just funny.
JamesMaissen
05-30-07, 11:52 PM I've been having fun with my first two levels of big, dumb monk, when there are lots of Small (and even Tiny) critters to grapple, but I'm concerned about keeping pace when monsters much bigger and dumber than me start making an appearance. Here's what I have so far:

Half-orc Str 18 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 6 Wis 14 Cha 6
Monk

1 Monk Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Dodge
2 Monk Feats: Combat Reflexes

Skills: Tumble 5 ranks, Sense Motive 5 ranks

I've been thinking about adding a level of cleric (strength domain for Enlarge Person) and a couple of levels of fighter, but am unsure where to take it from there. Suggestions welcome!

You will want to get rid of Dodge in favor of some other feat. What that should be will vary on what you want to do with the character.

I would stay with Improved Grapple as your chosen Monk1 bonus feat. The Improved Grapple Feat normally requires a 13 DEX, meaning if you are enlarged then you would not be able to use it with your lowered DEX score.

If you decide you want to mutt out a grappler then you will want to have Barbarian levels in the mix. I would retrain Dodge to Iron Will (if you like the below suggestion, otherwise Power Attack) and take Extra Rage at 3rd level with a Barbarian level, perhaps even reckless rage at 6th (and power attack as a fighter 1 bonus feat).

Go with either Monk2/Barb2/Ftr2 into Holy Liberator or get rid of either the Barb2 (uncanny dodge) level or the Ftr2 (bonus feat) level in lieu of Ranger1 (4 skill points, Track, Favored Enemy, +2 REF save bonus, +1 FORT bonus and spell completion). Basically if you can't think of a good fighter bonus feat then take Ranger1 instead of Fighter2.

The holy liberator cha bonus to saves won't kick in, but they have some nice spells and an awesome immunity at 3rd level. You'll need to retrain some skill ranks into diplomacy but you will have sufficient to do so.

-James
Tav_Behemoth
05-31-07, 11:13 AM Shuriken and Oil of Shillalagh will make me more effective starting immediately (as scrolls of mage armor have done already). Thanks!

I like the idea of a reach weapon to maximize AoOs with Combat Reflexes, which will be even more fun when enlarged. At the same time, two-handed whacking with a quarterstaff has been my main standby when grappling is inappropriate. It couldn't hurt to carry a spiked chain as well, but if I'm not proficient with it I'm not sure how often I'd actually want to be wielding it.

So here's a build for a monk wielding a guisarme (for attacks and trips at reach), with a few levels of drunken master (for stagger-charging past minions to grapple BBEG casters):

1 Monk: Dodge, {Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple}
2 Monk: {Combat Reflexes}
3 Monk: Martial Weapon Proficiency (Guisarme)
4 Monk: Dex +1
5 Monk
6 Monk: Great Fortitude, {Improved Trip}
7 Drunken Master
8 Drunken Master: Str +1
9 Monk: Power Attack
10 Monk
11 Monk
12 Monk: Flying Kick, Str +1
13 Monk
14 Monk
15 Monk: Defensive Throw
16 Monk: Dex +1

AC 17 plus items, 115 hit points, move 70
+16/+11/+6 guisarme, 2d4+7
+16/+16/+16/+11/+6 flurry of blows, 2d6+6

Not sure about the L12 and L15 feats, and the wisdom of the drunken master levels is debatable. It's got mad flava and I love the idea of a 140-foot twisty tumbling charge, but it's a shame to have to bump Dex to avoid losing the PrC when enlarged.

The holy liberator build is worthy of further study. I reckon I'd go fighter and take EWP (spiked chain), since I wouldn't have the luxury of relying on unarmed strikes against opponents within my reach. Getting bless weapon and other paladiny goodness is certainly tempting.
magebeast
05-31-07, 11:45 AM I like the idea of a reach weapon to maximize AoOs with Combat Reflexes, which will be even more fun when enlarged. At the same time, two-handed whacking with a quarterstaff has been my main standby when grappling is inappropriate. It couldn't hurt to carry a spiked chain as well, but if I'm not proficient with it I'm not sure how often I'd actually want to be wielding it.

The idea is that you just hold it when you're not holding anything else. That way you threaten out to 10 ft, so you have more chances to get AoOs even if you have to take them at a -4. You can still attack with unarmed strikes at that point, since you can attack with your knees or feet or elbows or what have you.
solbergb
05-31-07, 11:48 AM I've been having fun with my first two levels of big, dumb monk, when there are lots of Small (and even Tiny) critters to grapple, but I'm concerned about keeping pace when monsters much bigger and dumber than me start making an appearance. Here's what I have so far:

Half-orc Str 18 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 6 Wis 14 Cha 6
Monk

1 Monk Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Dodge
2 Monk Feats: Combat Reflexes

Skills: Tumble 5 ranks, Sense Motive 5 ranks

I've been thinking about adding a level of cleric (strength domain for Enlarge Person) and a couple of levels of fighter, but am unsure where to take it from there. Suggestions welcome!

Having played this exact character except with wisdom and intelligence reversed, and he's now level 14, I can give some advice here.

1. Keep cranking on the strength. It helps grappling yes, but it ALSO helps you just kill things. Get gaunts of ogre power ASAP, get belt of strength as your first major purchase. I did pretty well spending most of my cash on only 3 items - belt of strength, vest of resistance and amulet of health.

2. Add offensive feats, not defensive feats. In particular, look at improved natural attack, power attack, and a way to get proficient with a reach weapon.

3. Use a reach weapon even if not proficient to get free attacks with combat reflexes. Get improved trip at level 6, not improved disarm. I personally found that eventually getting proficiency and making the reach weapon the one that penetrated DR/evil handy - enlarged I have a reach advantage vs most outsiders and many of them are exceedingly dangerous in close.

4. Consider "delay potion" feat from PHB2, especially if you have a source of 50gp enlarge person potions instead of the 250gp caster level 5 version in the DMG. Being large helps grappling, tripping and raw damage quite a lot. In the meantime, buy a wand of enlarge person and pass it out to whomever can use it. Aggressively ask for it any time you think you're about to enter a fight, because you won't usually get it cast in combat. If you're wrong, you are only out 15gp a charge.

6. In APL10+, ask the party cleric, druid or wizard for greater magic weapon or greater magic fang on your fist, foot or whatever. An enhancement bonus to-hit and damage has a tremendous impact on whether you're hitting and doing meaningful damage, or whiffing, compared to other party members.

7. Try to stick with monk till level 12. Improved flurry and abundant step are just fantastic (and level 12 is a breakpoint for saves, BAB, unarmed damage, speed...stopping at 11 is shooting yourself in the foot). Improved evasion is also better than I thought it was, and while you'd think being immune to poison isn't much in a world of Hero's Feasts, I've actually run into antimagic-poison combinations a couple-three times and dispel+poison a few more times.

8. In the low levels, you'll grab everything. In the mid levels you'll grab and trip mostly, but sometimes decide an enemy is too big/strong/etc and just hit it as hard as you can (which will not be as hard as the optomized barbarian, but better than many mutt-fighters, and certainly meaningful if you keep up with str and offensive oriented feats). In the APL12-16 game, you will only use tactical feats on the vulnerable, or when you have a full attack to let your 5 tries make up for a disadvantage, and you will weight the cost of a failed tactical feat roll vs a reliable "more damage" roll every time. Tactical feats are to lock enemies in place. Hitting them is to kill them. Tactical feats reduce your offensive output in the short run due to d20 swings and CR advancement outpacing what you can do to increase your rolls. But they often DO keep an enemy near you for your full attack - and at a disadvantage so you can survive their counterattack.

9. Saving throws are more important than armor class for a monk. Spend on offense first, saves second (this means resistance item and attribute items) and armor class third. There is little that you can buy that is better than mage armor until the 12+ game. Your best defense is mobility, reach, tactical feats, target selection (pick the dangerous ranged/spellcasting enemies first, melee bruisers last) and a crushing full attack damage output.

Other comments: Reaping mauler is horrible. Its prereq feat requires that you be size medium or smaller, so you lose all class abilities when enlarged, and also the class really doesn't give much for the wasted feat. If you are going to exit monk, the best classes are fighter (feats and martial weapon proficiency), barbarian (if you can stomach alignment shift - rage helps everything) and other fullBAB prestige classes with minimal prereqs that give you class abilities you want that are sort of like feats. If you exit monk on a BAB breakpoint you can sneak in a level of spellcaster (eg, cleric strength domain, or pious templar) that gives sufficient back to be worth the BAB. (indeed, level 13 for me was
wizard for a variety of reasons, although some was backstory. Not an option with your char, but there are a lot of wisdom based PRC spellcasters, as well as cleric)
jstorrie
05-31-07, 02:51 PM I wouldn't put much investment into casting Enlarge Person–by the time you could fit it in your build it would no longer be a wise use of a full round of combat.

With your stats you're well suited to break out into Pious Templar:

1 Monk: IUS, IG, Dodge
2 Monk: CRflx
3 Monk: IG, retrain to Stunning Fist
4 Monk
5 Monk
6 Monk: Improved Trip, Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike
7 Monk
8 Monk: retrain Dodge to True Believer
9 Pious Templar (Zodal or Zuoken): Versatile Unarmed Strike
10 Pious Templar
11 Pious Templar: Weapon Specialization: Improved Unarmed Strike
12 Pious Templar: Water Splitting Stone, Melee Weapon Mastery: Slashing
13 Pious Templar
14 Pious Templar
15 Pious Templar: Ability Focus: Stunning Fist

Pious Templar advances your unarmed strike damage faster than Monk would via Weapon Spec/Mastery and gives you guisarme proficiency, plus you get some good spells like Mass Resurgence, Zeal and Divine Sacrifice.
clik_ml
05-31-07, 03:35 PM Ooooor, ignore the folks saying that cleric ruins the build and go full-throttle on the cleric.

It does help you with grappling immensely.

2 Monk/13 Cleric (of Zuoken) is nothing to be ashamed off.
(nor is 15 cleric, but you wanted some monkishness, so there it is)

Handicapped cleric casting, celerity+strength domains, early enlarge persons, divine power, righteous might, greater magic weapon, righteous wrath of the faithful, divine favor... you will have more self buffs than you can possibly cast in one combat (but we get many combats per day, so that's okay), but many will either last all day, or be able to be cast as a quickened action or during a surprise round.

Add to that that you can craft items, and that lets you double your gear... something which helps monks and grapplers tremendously, since usually they are very item-needy and can't craft to save their life.

You would have an exp/gold penalty, but that isn't bad unless you are only playing this one character with a group.

I became slightly discouraged about grapplers once I learned about scorpion claw exotic weapons from Sandstorm. They are an exotic weapon that essentially gives an easy +4 to grapple and there is little to no reason why a dedicated grappler wouldn't wear them other than that they are ridiculous weapons. They're the spiked chain of grappling, and I frown at them much more than I do at spiked chains even. My grappler cleric won't use them, and he'll be less effective for it.
solbergb
05-31-07, 07:18 PM Actually those weapons have some issues.

They appear to cover your entire hand, and would interfere with weilding any other weapon, possibly spellcasting and would be awkward to switch in and out even with quickdraw.

There will likely be some table variation on whether they really help your grapple check if you aren't proficient. There isn't much rules support for the view since unlike mancatcher they didn't say something explicit about it, but I suspect there will still be resistance. My monk won't use the stupid things without master's touch running and a willingness to abandon any other use of his hands. (there are rare situations where we buff up and his job is to grapple somnething difficult. That's about the only time I'd use it)
Vamroc
05-31-07, 07:59 PM I've been having fun with my first two levels of big, dumb monk, when there are lots of Small (and even Tiny) critters to grapple, but I'm concerned about keeping pace when monsters much bigger and dumber than me start making an appearance. Here's what I have so far:

Half-orc Str 18 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 6 Wis 14 Cha 6
Monk

1 Monk Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Dodge
2 Monk Feats: Combat Reflexes

Skills: Tumble 5 ranks, Sense Motive 5 ranks

I've been thinking about adding a level of cleric (strength domain for Enlarge Person) and a couple of levels of fighter, but am unsure where to take it from there. Suggestions welcome!

Potions of Mage Armor are a great idea. The problem is once you add a class you can never take monk levels again. Your better off leaving spells to those that can cast spells as their primary role. Also potions of magic fang work in a pinch. I've often wanted to experiment with a Drunken Master in to a Dwarven Defender.
Archwolf
05-31-07, 08:01 PM I'm a big fan of my human lvl 4 monk, and I plan to run him as monk to 12th lvl and then maybe something like pious templar. One of my favorite advantages is the speed bonus. My monk regualrly runs and tumbles past the front rank of baddies to grapple the spellcaster. Every party loves seeing the enemy spellcaster grappled.

Anyway, everyone here has been talking about combat reflexes, but apparently fiery fists is available as a 2nd level monk feat. I've been thinking about retraining combat reflexes into fiery fist for the extra damage, and the possibility of fiery ki defense at level 6 (though imp. trip may be better). I'm wondering what the assembled wisdom of the boards thinks of fiery fists. Better or worse than combat reflexes, or just a question of style?
Timlagor
05-31-07, 10:09 PM Reaping Mauler: It is my understanding that when you no longer qualify for the Feat you still have it -just can't use it. This would mean that you could still use the Reaping Mauler Features while enlarged.
Am I wrong?

Is Rogue1/Monk12 with Staggering strike as nice a combination as I think it would be?
jstorrie
05-31-07, 11:04 PM It's a good combination, but your attribute dependency goes up even higher if you're trapfinding. Monk 8 or Monk 12 into Nightsong Enforcer is pretty good, too.
solbergb
06-01-07, 12:05 PM Reaping Mauler: It is my understanding that when you no longer qualify for the Feat you still have it -just can't use it. This would mean that you could still use the Reaping Mauler Features while enlarged.
Am I wrong?

While I'm inclined to agree, there's enough table variation you'd be at a lot of risk.

Plus the class features aren't worth what you pay for them, even without the variation.

Staggering strike on a monk with improved flurry would be pretty good yeah, as long as you mustered enough offence per hit to make the save dc moderately high.
JamesMaissen
06-01-07, 01:21 PM Is Rogue1/Monk12 with Staggering strike as nice a combination as I think it would be?

Depends more on the damage you can do per hit than the number of hits you are generating.

A full melee rogue with the feat can generate a save DC requiring a natural 20. If your DC only required an 11 or higher then you would need to hit four times to get close to the same chance of success.

Further you would be a BAB down on a class that needs BAB. It would be painful for many levels.

-James

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tav_Behemoth 05-30-07, 04:21 PM	I've been having fun with my first two levels of big, dumb monk, when there are lots of Small (and even Tiny) critters to grapple, but I'm concerned about keeping pace when monsters much bigger and dumber than me start making an appearance. Here's what I have so far: Half-orc Str 18 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 6 Wis 14 Cha 6 Monk 1 Monk Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Dodge 2 Monk Feats: Combat Reflexes Skills: Tumble 5 ranks, Sense Motive 5 ranks I've been thinking about adding a level of cleric (strength domain for Enlarge Person) and a couple of levels of fighter, but am unsure where to take it from there. Suggestions welcome!
TWG_Prometheus 05-30-07, 04:32 PM	To be perfectly honest, I wouldn't worry too much about the things that are way bigger and/or way stronger than you are. At least...not in terms of being able to grapple them. It's cool to be the big grapple guy for a party, but there are times when you should recognize that you're outmatched, and that you're supposed to be outmatched. The answer to every encounter shouldn't be to move right to your primary attack form. That said, you don't have to go without preparation for the times when the grapple checks are closer. I would drop the idea of going into a caster class. They don't actually do anything to help you do what you want to do. You can get a size bump, but there are other ways to accomplish that without losing your focus. * Find a ranged solution. You'll need it. With your strength, shuriken might actually work but likely it'll need to have a bigger range increment. * Get some scrolls and/or a wand of Enlarge Person. Somebody around should be able to use it for you when the situation calls for it. Stick with monk or fade over into Fighter after you get Ki Strike(Magic).
amnuxoll 05-30-07, 04:39 PM	If you're intent on grappling everything you can get into Reaping Mauler of course. Monks get pretty awesome starting aroung 10th level. You've got a good build started here. Don't wreck it by going cleric.
Mommy was an Orc 05-30-07, 05:29 PM	Things I'd do: Spiked Chain - yes, you're non-proficient, but it means you get to swing at anything moving near you. One of the three biggest mistakes I see Monks make is giving up free attacks for almost no reason. Shuriken - when you find yourself not near enough to attack anyone, you can draw one as a free action and toss it. Oil of Shillalagh - 50 gp oil that turns your Quarterstaff into something you can flurry with and do 2d6+5 per swing. ----- One thing I'd do when you hit 3rd level is retrain Improved Grapple into Stunning Fist and take Improved Grapple as your 3rd level feat. Stunning Fist is pretty useful as a 14 Wisdom Monk who expects to hit. Then at level 4, retrain Dodge into a feat chain you expect to take. I'd stick with Monk - it is pretty effective - especially when half your party members can cast Mage Armor :) Andy
bitznarf 05-30-07, 06:02 PM	During a mini-mission for an interactive 2 weeks ago I was on 'team monk': we had 3 monks at the table. Stunning and tripping the Huge Advanced Half Dragon Otyugh is just funny.
JamesMaissen 05-30-07, 11:52 PM	I've been having fun with my first two levels of big, dumb monk, when there are lots of Small (and even Tiny) critters to grapple, but I'm concerned about keeping pace when monsters much bigger and dumber than me start making an appearance. Here's what I have so far: Half-orc Str 18 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 6 Wis 14 Cha 6 Monk 1 Monk Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Dodge 2 Monk Feats: Combat Reflexes Skills: Tumble 5 ranks, Sense Motive 5 ranks I've been thinking about adding a level of cleric (strength domain for Enlarge Person) and a couple of levels of fighter, but am unsure where to take it from there. Suggestions welcome! You will want to get rid of Dodge in favor of some other feat. What that should be will vary on what you want to do with the character. I would stay with Improved Grapple as your chosen Monk1 bonus feat. The Improved Grapple Feat normally requires a 13 DEX, meaning if you are enlarged then you would not be able to use it with your lowered DEX score. If you decide you want to mutt out a grappler then you will want to have Barbarian levels in the mix. I would retrain Dodge to Iron Will (if you like the below suggestion, otherwise Power Attack) and take Extra Rage at 3rd level with a Barbarian level, perhaps even reckless rage at 6th (and power attack as a fighter 1 bonus feat). Go with either Monk2/Barb2/Ftr2 into Holy Liberator or get rid of either the Barb2 (uncanny dodge) level or the Ftr2 (bonus feat) level in lieu of Ranger1 (4 skill points, Track, Favored Enemy, +2 REF save bonus, +1 FORT bonus and spell completion). Basically if you can't think of a good fighter bonus feat then take Ranger1 instead of Fighter2. The holy liberator cha bonus to saves won't kick in, but they have some nice spells and an awesome immunity at 3rd level. You'll need to retrain some skill ranks into diplomacy but you will have sufficient to do so. -James
Tav_Behemoth 05-31-07, 11:13 AM	Shuriken and Oil of Shillalagh will make me more effective starting immediately (as scrolls of mage armor have done already). Thanks! I like the idea of a reach weapon to maximize AoOs with Combat Reflexes, which will be even more fun when enlarged. At the same time, two-handed whacking with a quarterstaff has been my main standby when grappling is inappropriate. It couldn't hurt to carry a spiked chain as well, but if I'm not proficient with it I'm not sure how often I'd actually want to be wielding it. So here's a build for a monk wielding a guisarme (for attacks and trips at reach), with a few levels of drunken master (for stagger-charging past minions to grapple BBEG casters): 1 Monk: Dodge, {Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple} 2 Monk: {Combat Reflexes} 3 Monk: Martial Weapon Proficiency (Guisarme) 4 Monk: Dex +1 5 Monk 6 Monk: Great Fortitude, {Improved Trip} 7 Drunken Master 8 Drunken Master: Str +1 9 Monk: Power Attack 10 Monk 11 Monk 12 Monk: Flying Kick, Str +1 13 Monk 14 Monk 15 Monk: Defensive Throw 16 Monk: Dex +1 AC 17 plus items, 115 hit points, move 70 +16/+11/+6 guisarme, 2d4+7 +16/+16/+16/+11/+6 flurry of blows, 2d6+6 Not sure about the L12 and L15 feats, and the wisdom of the drunken master levels is debatable. It's got mad flava and I love the idea of a 140-foot twisty tumbling charge, but it's a shame to have to bump Dex to avoid losing the PrC when enlarged. The holy liberator build is worthy of further study. I reckon I'd go fighter and take EWP (spiked chain), since I wouldn't have the luxury of relying on unarmed strikes against opponents within my reach. Getting bless weapon and other paladiny goodness is certainly tempting.
magebeast 05-31-07, 11:45 AM	I like the idea of a reach weapon to maximize AoOs with Combat Reflexes, which will be even more fun when enlarged. At the same time, two-handed whacking with a quarterstaff has been my main standby when grappling is inappropriate. It couldn't hurt to carry a spiked chain as well, but if I'm not proficient with it I'm not sure how often I'd actually want to be wielding it. The idea is that you just hold it when you're not holding anything else. That way you threaten out to 10 ft, so you have more chances to get AoOs even if you have to take them at a -4. You can still attack with unarmed strikes at that point, since you can attack with your knees or feet or elbows or what have you.
solbergb 05-31-07, 11:48 AM	I've been having fun with my first two levels of big, dumb monk, when there are lots of Small (and even Tiny) critters to grapple, but I'm concerned about keeping pace when monsters much bigger and dumber than me start making an appearance. Here's what I have so far: Half-orc Str 18 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 6 Wis 14 Cha 6 Monk 1 Monk Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Dodge 2 Monk Feats: Combat Reflexes Skills: Tumble 5 ranks, Sense Motive 5 ranks I've been thinking about adding a level of cleric (strength domain for Enlarge Person) and a couple of levels of fighter, but am unsure where to take it from there. Suggestions welcome! Having played this exact character except with wisdom and intelligence reversed, and he's now level 14, I can give some advice here. 1. Keep cranking on the strength. It helps grappling yes, but it ALSO helps you just kill things. Get gaunts of ogre power ASAP, get belt of strength as your first major purchase. I did pretty well spending most of my cash on only 3 items - belt of strength, vest of resistance and amulet of health. 2. Add offensive feats, not defensive feats. In particular, look at improved natural attack, power attack, and a way to get proficient with a reach weapon. 3. Use a reach weapon even if not proficient to get free attacks with combat reflexes. Get improved trip at level 6, not improved disarm. I personally found that eventually getting proficiency and making the reach weapon the one that penetrated DR/evil handy - enlarged I have a reach advantage vs most outsiders and many of them are exceedingly dangerous in close. 4. Consider "delay potion" feat from PHB2, especially if you have a source of 50gp enlarge person potions instead of the 250gp caster level 5 version in the DMG. Being large helps grappling, tripping and raw damage quite a lot. In the meantime, buy a wand of enlarge person and pass it out to whomever can use it. Aggressively ask for it any time you think you're about to enter a fight, because you won't usually get it cast in combat. If you're wrong, you are only out 15gp a charge. 6. In APL10+, ask the party cleric, druid or wizard for greater magic weapon or greater magic fang on your fist, foot or whatever. An enhancement bonus to-hit and damage has a tremendous impact on whether you're hitting and doing meaningful damage, or whiffing, compared to other party members. 7. Try to stick with monk till level 12. Improved flurry and abundant step are just fantastic (and level 12 is a breakpoint for saves, BAB, unarmed damage, speed...stopping at 11 is shooting yourself in the foot). Improved evasion is also better than I thought it was, and while you'd think being immune to poison isn't much in a world of Hero's Feasts, I've actually run into antimagic-poison combinations a couple-three times and dispel+poison a few more times. 8. In the low levels, you'll grab everything. In the mid levels you'll grab and trip mostly, but sometimes decide an enemy is too big/strong/etc and just hit it as hard as you can (which will not be as hard as the optomized barbarian, but better than many mutt-fighters, and certainly meaningful if you keep up with str and offensive oriented feats). In the APL12-16 game, you will only use tactical feats on the vulnerable, or when you have a full attack to let your 5 tries make up for a disadvantage, and you will weight the cost of a failed tactical feat roll vs a reliable "more damage" roll every time. Tactical feats are to lock enemies in place. Hitting them is to kill them. Tactical feats reduce your offensive output in the short run due to d20 swings and CR advancement outpacing what you can do to increase your rolls. But they often DO keep an enemy near you for your full attack - and at a disadvantage so you can survive their counterattack. 9. Saving throws are more important than armor class for a monk. Spend on offense first, saves second (this means resistance item and attribute items) and armor class third. There is little that you can buy that is better than mage armor until the 12+ game. Your best defense is mobility, reach, tactical feats, target selection (pick the dangerous ranged/spellcasting enemies first, melee bruisers last) and a crushing full attack damage output. Other comments: Reaping mauler is horrible. Its prereq feat requires that you be size medium or smaller, so you lose all class abilities when enlarged, and also the class really doesn't give much for the wasted feat. If you are going to exit monk, the best classes are fighter (feats and martial weapon proficiency), barbarian (if you can stomach alignment shift - rage helps everything) and other fullBAB prestige classes with minimal prereqs that give you class abilities you want that are sort of like feats. If you exit monk on a BAB breakpoint you can sneak in a level of spellcaster (eg, cleric strength domain, or pious templar) that gives sufficient back to be worth the BAB. (indeed, level 13 for me was wizard for a variety of reasons, although some was backstory. Not an option with your char, but there are a lot of wisdom based PRC spellcasters, as well as cleric)
jstorrie 05-31-07, 02:51 PM	I wouldn't put much investment into casting Enlarge Person–by the time you could fit it in your build it would no longer be a wise use of a full round of combat. With your stats you're well suited to break out into Pious Templar: 1 Monk: IUS, IG, Dodge 2 Monk: CRflx 3 Monk: IG, retrain to Stunning Fist 4 Monk 5 Monk 6 Monk: Improved Trip, Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike 7 Monk 8 Monk: retrain Dodge to True Believer 9 Pious Templar (Zodal or Zuoken): Versatile Unarmed Strike 10 Pious Templar 11 Pious Templar: Weapon Specialization: Improved Unarmed Strike 12 Pious Templar: Water Splitting Stone, Melee Weapon Mastery: Slashing 13 Pious Templar 14 Pious Templar 15 Pious Templar: Ability Focus: Stunning Fist Pious Templar advances your unarmed strike damage faster than Monk would via Weapon Spec/Mastery and gives you guisarme proficiency, plus you get some good spells like Mass Resurgence, Zeal and Divine Sacrifice.
clik_ml 05-31-07, 03:35 PM	Ooooor, ignore the folks saying that cleric ruins the build and go full-throttle on the cleric. It does help you with grappling immensely. 2 Monk/13 Cleric (of Zuoken) is nothing to be ashamed off. (nor is 15 cleric, but you wanted some monkishness, so there it is) Handicapped cleric casting, celerity+strength domains, early enlarge persons, divine power, righteous might, greater magic weapon, righteous wrath of the faithful, divine favor... you will have more self buffs than you can possibly cast in one combat (but we get many combats per day, so that's okay), but many will either last all day, or be able to be cast as a quickened action or during a surprise round. Add to that that you can craft items, and that lets you double your gear... something which helps monks and grapplers tremendously, since usually they are very item-needy and can't craft to save their life. You would have an exp/gold penalty, but that isn't bad unless you are only playing this one character with a group. I became slightly discouraged about grapplers once I learned about scorpion claw exotic weapons from Sandstorm. They are an exotic weapon that essentially gives an easy +4 to grapple and there is little to no reason why a dedicated grappler wouldn't wear them other than that they are ridiculous weapons. They're the spiked chain of grappling, and I frown at them much more than I do at spiked chains even. My grappler cleric won't use them, and he'll be less effective for it.
solbergb 05-31-07, 07:18 PM	Actually those weapons have some issues. They appear to cover your entire hand, and would interfere with weilding any other weapon, possibly spellcasting and would be awkward to switch in and out even with quickdraw. There will likely be some table variation on whether they really help your grapple check if you aren't proficient. There isn't much rules support for the view since unlike mancatcher they didn't say something explicit about it, but I suspect there will still be resistance. My monk won't use the stupid things without master's touch running and a willingness to abandon any other use of his hands. (there are rare situations where we buff up and his job is to grapple somnething difficult. That's about the only time I'd use it)
Vamroc 05-31-07, 07:59 PM	I've been having fun with my first two levels of big, dumb monk, when there are lots of Small (and even Tiny) critters to grapple, but I'm concerned about keeping pace when monsters much bigger and dumber than me start making an appearance. Here's what I have so far: Half-orc Str 18 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 6 Wis 14 Cha 6 Monk 1 Monk Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Dodge 2 Monk Feats: Combat Reflexes Skills: Tumble 5 ranks, Sense Motive 5 ranks I've been thinking about adding a level of cleric (strength domain for Enlarge Person) and a couple of levels of fighter, but am unsure where to take it from there. Suggestions welcome! Potions of Mage Armor are a great idea. The problem is once you add a class you can never take monk levels again. Your better off leaving spells to those that can cast spells as their primary role. Also potions of magic fang work in a pinch. I've often wanted to experiment with a Drunken Master in to a Dwarven Defender.
Archwolf 05-31-07, 08:01 PM	I'm a big fan of my human lvl 4 monk, and I plan to run him as monk to 12th lvl and then maybe something like pious templar. One of my favorite advantages is the speed bonus. My monk regualrly runs and tumbles past the front rank of baddies to grapple the spellcaster. Every party loves seeing the enemy spellcaster grappled. Anyway, everyone here has been talking about combat reflexes, but apparently fiery fists is available as a 2nd level monk feat. I've been thinking about retraining combat reflexes into fiery fist for the extra damage, and the possibility of fiery ki defense at level 6 (though imp. trip may be better). I'm wondering what the assembled wisdom of the boards thinks of fiery fists. Better or worse than combat reflexes, or just a question of style?
Timlagor 05-31-07, 10:09 PM	Reaping Mauler: It is my understanding that when you no longer qualify for the Feat you still have it -just can't use it. This would mean that you could still use the Reaping Mauler Features while enlarged. Am I wrong? Is Rogue1/Monk12 with Staggering strike as nice a combination as I think it would be?
jstorrie 05-31-07, 11:04 PM	It's a good combination, but your attribute dependency goes up even higher if you're trapfinding. Monk 8 or Monk 12 into Nightsong Enforcer is pretty good, too.
solbergb 06-01-07, 12:05 PM	Reaping Mauler: It is my understanding that when you no longer qualify for the Feat you still have it -just can't use it. This would mean that you could still use the Reaping Mauler Features while enlarged. Am I wrong? While I'm inclined to agree, there's enough table variation you'd be at a lot of risk. Plus the class features aren't worth what you pay for them, even without the variation. Staggering strike on a monk with improved flurry would be pretty good yeah, as long as you mustered enough offence per hit to make the save dc moderately high.
JamesMaissen 06-01-07, 01:21 PM	Is Rogue1/Monk12 with Staggering strike as nice a combination as I think it would be? Depends more on the damage you can do per hit than the number of hits you are generating. A full melee rogue with the feat can generate a save DC requiring a natural 20. If your DC only required an 11 or higher then you would need to hit four times to get close to the same chance of success. Further you would be a BAB down on a class that needs BAB. It would be painful for many levels. -James