Help with a melee Cleric [Archive] - Wizards Community

Help with a melee Cleric [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Loignar
03-11-07, 11:51 PM I am building a new cleric, probably follower of Kelanen. The idea is to maintain full caster levels (or as near as possible), but still be viable for melee combat.

I have a basic concept, and would like some feedback.

Half-Orc s18 d12 c14 i6 w15 c6
Domain war/travel
1 cleric Power Attack/WF Grt Sword
2 cleric
3 cleric Craft WI
4 cleric +1 Wis
5 cleric
6 cleric Imp bull rush
7 cleric
8 cleric +1 Wis
9 cleric Shock trooper
10 cleric
11 cleric
12 cleric ? +1 Wis
13 cleric
14 cleric
15 cleric ?

I am not concerned with skills since I am not taking any PrC atm (although I would be open to the idea) and we have 2 skill monkeys in my regular group.
Also Cha is not a concern since I don't plan on any divine feats.
Basically he is an average ability level healer who can hit pretty hard.
Timlagor
03-12-07, 02:41 AM I'd drop the Fighter level.
Lower the Strength: you really don't need that much and you're going to suffer from that Dex and Charisma: have you looked at the Divine Feats? Even the lack of skills will be irritating.

Strength 14 is enough and 16 is plenty. You will be buffing it nicely.

You don't need both Shock Trooper and Combat Brute (I'd drop the Brute and Sunder)... you don't really need either.
Craft Wand is something I'd take for one level (maybe 2) and then Retrain once you have the wands you didn't have access to.

You should consider Metamagic: you can get by on Rods (or without) but Extend could be very useful indeed.
clik_ml
03-12-07, 03:18 AM I'd drop the fighter level. You already get armor proficiencies, and proficiency with the sword you want, and a bonus feat as a human. Fighter just offers so little to this guy.

The only major thing that level of fighter does do is make the selection of craft wonderous item at level 3 illegal (requires caster level 3).

I'd just take power attack and either Imp Sunder or Imp Bull Rush (depending upon which tactical feat you fancy most... taking both is almost excessive... I'll write on as though Shock Trooper is the way to go, but it's your call).

18 strength is very nice at low levels. If you want it, keep it. Be aware that as you level up eventually you'll be torn between an amulet of health or a periapt of wisdom (since with 3 level bumps you only have 17 wisdom and thus no 8th level spells and precious few bonus spells). That is the major cost of your 18 strength. I wouldn't worry about the charisma for divine feats since you are starved for feats as it is. I also wouldn't worry terribly about the skill points since it's effectively a 10 int for that stuff.

If you're comfortable with it, then you could go half-orc and get a 20 strength, oooor keep the 18 strength and pump up your wisdom a little bit. That way you could ignore periapts of wisdom forever and wear an amulet of health to make you a real brusier. You don't take Imp Bull Rush until just before level 9, when you retrain your 6th level feat into Imp Bull Rush and then grab Shock Trooper at the same time.

Feats:
1)Pow Atk, W Focus, Imp Bull Rush (if human)
3) Craft Wonderous Item
6) Craft Wand (retrain later to Arms and Armor if manage to get the wands you wanted, retrain to Imp Bull Rush if half-orc).
9) Shock Trooper

12 and 15 have many options. You could retrain craft wand into imp sunder and get Combat Brute if you really want it. You could simply take Imp Toughness for +12 HP. You could take Craft Arms and Armor since weapons start getting crazy expensive.
Loignar
03-12-07, 09:20 AM Edited to remove fighter level and changed to Half-Orc. Although the skills are terrible it is starting to look like it meets my basic goals.
Anyone else have suggestions?
Alpha_Nerd
03-12-07, 01:11 PM I don't think you should take Shock Trooper. I'd throw Craft Arms and Armor into the build somewhere.
zoinks69
03-13-07, 01:21 PM For a melee cleric (good to see them making a comeback), I'd highlight the obvious stuff:

Str, Con, Wis (to a lesser extent -- 14 is a good round number as this lets you cast the important 4th levels). Everything else can be dumped (note that you might want PrC's in the future, so if you have your eye on one (that's open) or you think you might get access to one (through gameplay), you might consider spending points in Int to have more than 1 skill point/level.

For feats -- Power Attack and free WF is great. Consider Cleave at 3 (since you want to be a melee guy, BE a melee guy. Melee guys have Cleave. I don't recall Shock Trooper offhand, but it sounds particularly expensive for a straight cleric (even a melee-oriented one). Just keep in mind that 3 (or 6) levels is a long time to wait for that kind of payoff.

****
Looking at Shock Trooper -- well, I dunno. I've never seen it used before. Seems like you'd have to buff yourself to make it effective and once the first round is over, you're probably not going to be able to use it very often as you're either dealing with area effects (entangle-types, damage to allies, etc) or have a bad guy in your face.

As an alternative -- Bump your Cha (either via points or Cloak) and try Domain Spontaneity (Travel). Nothing better than being able to pop off Fly, D.Door, etc. more than once a day.
Munkwunk
03-13-07, 01:56 PM Good move dropping the fighter level and switching to half-orc.

You have two basic choices to make: Do you want to drop everything in favor of dealing damage, or would you rather be a passable party contributor in other ways?

As a cleric, there will be tiems when you are expected to ehal. When other clerics are at the table, you can leave the role to them (mostly) and do your thing more often, but keep in mind that, from time to time, you will be the party's lifeforce.

For that reason, my own Half-orc Cleric of Mayaheine (now 12th level with 0 deaths!) picked up Augment Healing, the idea being that "I don't heal often, but when I do I make it count." Being able to heal everyone quickly and efficiently lets you get back in to combat. However, to grab Augment Healing you would have to sacrifice 4 Concentration ranks (eek!) or else increase your Int to 10 to grab 2 skill points per level.

If you just want to be a smashy damage dealer, you can saefly ignore all skills other than Concentration. Personally, I have found very little in the way of prestige classes for a good combat cleric (which is why I'm straight Cleric 12). If you're fine with stopping your spell progression around the time you get Righteous Might/Wrath, you can probably dip in to Shining Blade, but that class is fairly worthless, IMO. Pious Templar isn't bad, but you lose your cleric spell progression entirely.

Aside from Augment Healing, you definitely will want Power Attack. From experience playing a barbarian I can tell you that Shock Trooper is certainly fun, but you ahve to be careful with it. As a cleric, your options for AC are much better than a standard barbarian Shock Trooper, so you have to make a conscious decision: will you sacrifice your AC just to ensure one gigantic power attacky hit? At least you have Cure Critical Wounds to back yourself up when the enemy hits back, but be careful that the time spent healing yourself afterward is worth it (i.e. you won't be hitting in the second round if you have to patch yourself up).

Other feats you might consider: Steady Concentration (RoS) and Mobile Spellcasting (CAdv). The former lets you take 10 on Concentration checks (HUGE!) and the latter lets you "spring attack" while casting spells (also huge for clerics in heavy armor and reduced movement).

Being a smashy melee cleric can be fun, but you have to weigh the options carefully and keep in mind that there will be times when you are called upon to be the party's medic. If you cna cope with that, then beign a melee cleric is certainly a rewarding experience.

/motivational speech

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Loignar 03-11-07, 11:51 PM	I am building a new cleric, probably follower of Kelanen. The idea is to maintain full caster levels (or as near as possible), but still be viable for melee combat. I have a basic concept, and would like some feedback. Half-Orc s18 d12 c14 i6 w15 c6 Domain war/travel 1 cleric Power Attack/WF Grt Sword 2 cleric 3 cleric Craft WI 4 cleric +1 Wis 5 cleric 6 cleric Imp bull rush 7 cleric 8 cleric +1 Wis 9 cleric Shock trooper 10 cleric 11 cleric 12 cleric ? +1 Wis 13 cleric 14 cleric 15 cleric ? I am not concerned with skills since I am not taking any PrC atm (although I would be open to the idea) and we have 2 skill monkeys in my regular group. Also Cha is not a concern since I don't plan on any divine feats. Basically he is an average ability level healer who can hit pretty hard.
Timlagor 03-12-07, 02:41 AM	I'd drop the Fighter level. Lower the Strength: you really don't need that much and you're going to suffer from that Dex and Charisma: have you looked at the Divine Feats? Even the lack of skills will be irritating. Strength 14 is enough and 16 is plenty. You will be buffing it nicely. You don't need both Shock Trooper and Combat Brute (I'd drop the Brute and Sunder)... you don't really need either. Craft Wand is something I'd take for one level (maybe 2) and then Retrain once you have the wands you didn't have access to. You should consider Metamagic: you can get by on Rods (or without) but Extend could be very useful indeed.
clik_ml 03-12-07, 03:18 AM	I'd drop the fighter level. You already get armor proficiencies, and proficiency with the sword you want, and a bonus feat as a human. Fighter just offers so little to this guy. The only major thing that level of fighter does do is make the selection of craft wonderous item at level 3 illegal (requires caster level 3). I'd just take power attack and either Imp Sunder or Imp Bull Rush (depending upon which tactical feat you fancy most... taking both is almost excessive... I'll write on as though Shock Trooper is the way to go, but it's your call). 18 strength is very nice at low levels. If you want it, keep it. Be aware that as you level up eventually you'll be torn between an amulet of health or a periapt of wisdom (since with 3 level bumps you only have 17 wisdom and thus no 8th level spells and precious few bonus spells). That is the major cost of your 18 strength. I wouldn't worry about the charisma for divine feats since you are starved for feats as it is. I also wouldn't worry terribly about the skill points since it's effectively a 10 int for that stuff. If you're comfortable with it, then you could go half-orc and get a 20 strength, oooor keep the 18 strength and pump up your wisdom a little bit. That way you could ignore periapts of wisdom forever and wear an amulet of health to make you a real brusier. You don't take Imp Bull Rush until just before level 9, when you retrain your 6th level feat into Imp Bull Rush and then grab Shock Trooper at the same time. Feats: 1)Pow Atk, W Focus, Imp Bull Rush (if human) 3) Craft Wonderous Item 6) Craft Wand (retrain later to Arms and Armor if manage to get the wands you wanted, retrain to Imp Bull Rush if half-orc). 9) Shock Trooper 12 and 15 have many options. You could retrain craft wand into imp sunder and get Combat Brute if you really want it. You could simply take Imp Toughness for +12 HP. You could take Craft Arms and Armor since weapons start getting crazy expensive.
Loignar 03-12-07, 09:20 AM	Edited to remove fighter level and changed to Half-Orc. Although the skills are terrible it is starting to look like it meets my basic goals. Anyone else have suggestions?
Alpha_Nerd 03-12-07, 01:11 PM	I don't think you should take Shock Trooper. I'd throw Craft Arms and Armor into the build somewhere.
zoinks69 03-13-07, 01:21 PM	For a melee cleric (good to see them making a comeback), I'd highlight the obvious stuff: Str, Con, Wis (to a lesser extent -- 14 is a good round number as this lets you cast the important 4th levels). Everything else can be dumped (note that you might want PrC's in the future, so if you have your eye on one (that's open) or you think you might get access to one (through gameplay), you might consider spending points in Int to have more than 1 skill point/level. For feats -- Power Attack and free WF is great. Consider Cleave at 3 (since you want to be a melee guy, BE a melee guy. Melee guys have Cleave. I don't recall Shock Trooper offhand, but it sounds particularly expensive for a straight cleric (even a melee-oriented one). Just keep in mind that 3 (or 6) levels is a long time to wait for that kind of payoff. **** Looking at Shock Trooper -- well, I dunno. I've never seen it used before. Seems like you'd have to buff yourself to make it effective and once the first round is over, you're probably not going to be able to use it very often as you're either dealing with area effects (entangle-types, damage to allies, etc) or have a bad guy in your face. As an alternative -- Bump your Cha (either via points or Cloak) and try Domain Spontaneity (Travel). Nothing better than being able to pop off Fly, D.Door, etc. more than once a day.
Munkwunk 03-13-07, 01:56 PM	Good move dropping the fighter level and switching to half-orc. You have two basic choices to make: Do you want to drop everything in favor of dealing damage, or would you rather be a passable party contributor in other ways? As a cleric, there will be tiems when you are expected to ehal. When other clerics are at the table, you can leave the role to them (mostly) and do your thing more often, but keep in mind that, from time to time, you will be the party's lifeforce. For that reason, my own Half-orc Cleric of Mayaheine (now 12th level with 0 deaths!) picked up Augment Healing, the idea being that "I don't heal often, but when I do I make it count." Being able to heal everyone quickly and efficiently lets you get back in to combat. However, to grab Augment Healing you would have to sacrifice 4 Concentration ranks (eek!) or else increase your Int to 10 to grab 2 skill points per level. If you just want to be a smashy damage dealer, you can saefly ignore all skills other than Concentration. Personally, I have found very little in the way of prestige classes for a good combat cleric (which is why I'm straight Cleric 12). If you're fine with stopping your spell progression around the time you get Righteous Might/Wrath, you can probably dip in to Shining Blade, but that class is fairly worthless, IMO. Pious Templar isn't bad, but you lose your cleric spell progression entirely. Aside from Augment Healing, you definitely will want Power Attack. From experience playing a barbarian I can tell you that Shock Trooper is certainly fun, but you ahve to be careful with it. As a cleric, your options for AC are much better than a standard barbarian Shock Trooper, so you have to make a conscious decision: will you sacrifice your AC just to ensure one gigantic power attacky hit? At least you have Cure Critical Wounds to back yourself up when the enemy hits back, but be careful that the time spent healing yourself afterward is worth it (i.e. you won't be hitting in the second round if you have to patch yourself up). Other feats you might consider: Steady Concentration (RoS) and Mobile Spellcasting (CAdv). The former lets you take 10 on Concentration checks (HUGE!) and the latter lets you "spring attack" while casting spells (also huge for clerics in heavy armor and reduced movement). Being a smashy melee cleric can be fun, but you have to weigh the options carefully and keep in mind that there will be times when you are called upon to be the party's medic. If you cna cope with that, then beign a melee cleric is certainly a rewarding experience. /motivational speech