Help with a Spellsword build [Archive] - Wizards Community

Help with a Spellsword build [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dragon9
12-03-06, 11:43 PM I will be trying a foray into Spellsword for my next character. And actually, I thought a spellsword Dervish would be really cool but I don't know how feasible that would be.

Anyway, the idea came about from the minis fig Sword of Glory. (I think that's what it was called). Plate Mail and a double sword. So that's the concept. Any suggestions for optimal build? I was thinking Spellsword abilities for more self buffs than anythign else. Part of me thinks I wouldn't be able to fit dervish in there (I know I would have to go without the Plate Mail for that).

Is there a good way to work both of those together?
Maesto
12-04-06, 01:17 AM It'd be tough, but you might be able to pull it off. I'll see what I can cobble together.

The problem with the concept is that spellsword and dervish just don't complement each other. Neither helps to qualify for the other's prerequisites, and nor do any of their abilities build upon the other class's abilities.

That being said, for spellsword you need 4 BAB and 6 ranks in knowledge (arcana), as well as a fighter level (effectively) and 3 wizard levels (assuming you go for the wizard route). Note that you can do this as a sorcerer also. Eldritch Knight, a similar class, needs a fighter level and 5 wizard levels.

Dervish needs 5 BAB, 4 feats, and 6 ranks (total) in cross-class skills. Also needs no shield and light armour.

So I guess you'd be going for a mithril chain shirt or mithril breastplate (or possibly an adamantine chain shirt if you want the DR). So the maximum "ignore arcane spell failure" you need is going to be 15%, or 20% for the adamantine. Regardless, you're going to want 4 levels of spellsword, because the channel spell ability is just so cool and useful. And if you're going to take 4 levels, then the 5th level isn't bad at all anyway, so if you want the adamantine then you can take the 5th level, but this will basically be detracting from dervish levels, and you only get BAB and a casting level from it.

So, how does this look?

1. Fighter, Combat Expertise, Dodge
2. Wizard, (Scribe Scroll)
3. Wizard, Mobility
4. Wizard
5. Wizard
6. Wizard, Craft Wondrous Item, Weapon Focus (any slashing weapon)
7. Spellsword
8. Spellsword, Power Attack
9. Spellsword, Elusive Target
10. Spellsword
11. Dervish
12. Dervish, Practised Spellcaster
13. Dervish
14. Dervish
15. Dervish, ?

Fairly vanilla; 7 casting levels, 11th level caster. Alternatives are to dumb down the spellcasting a bit, and instead of taking 5 wizard levels to just take three and add in another fighter level, but then you lose craft wondrous item and all the benefits it brings (note that practised spellcaster basically means that you'll be able to craft most things; a 5th level of spellsword would give you the rest).

Armour-wise, if all you want is to be able to run around in armour, then take a single level of spellsword and use a mithril chain shirt. Otherwise, I'd recommend the mithril breastplate, unless you particularly wanted 22 dex at some point in time.

A more feat-oriented build would have a level of eldritch knight in there too, along with a second fighter level over the two wizard levels. It simply depends on whether you want more casting or more hitting. The choice is basically from 4th level spells and crafting goodness or 3rd level spells and two extra feats and more bab goodness.

Sorry for the ramble,

Jolyon
Morgen
12-04-06, 02:45 AM Maybe instead of a spellsword dervish you might think more along the lines of a Bladesinger Dervish? It doesn't match up as much with the mini but seems to fit a bit more of the general class idea...
jstorrie
12-04-06, 03:14 AM It is possible to do this, and this is a very decent build at the high levels, although low-level gishes are always a bit annoying. Arcane Strike is a more reliable damage bonus than Skirmish, and potentially bigger, too. Charisma only needs to be 14, or even 12 if you're going to wear a cape - you'll only be going up to 4th level spells, for Polymorph.

Human
1 Fighter Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility
2 Sorceror
3 Sorceror EWP: Two-Bladed Sword
4 Sorceror
5 Sorceror
6 Sorceror WF: Two-Bladed Sword
7 Sorceror
8 Spellsword
9 Dervish Arcane Strike
10 Dervish
11 Dervish
12 Sorceror x
13 Dervish
14 Dervish
15 Dervish x
UMiskatonic
12-04-06, 11:47 AM I'd vote for Bladesinger as well. You'll get to quicken spells, add in arcane strike, and then dance around the battlefield.

The pre-reqs are also good matches for each other, what with Perform(dance) and all that.
Mommy was an Orc
12-04-06, 04:39 PM I'd vote for Bladesinger as well. You'll get to quicken spells, add in arcane strike, and then dance around the battlefield.

The pre-reqs are also good matches for each other, what with Perform(dance) and all that.

Somewhat...the problem is that they force a Dervish to go the route of least effectiveness - Bladesinger mainly works when you have a weapon in one hand, Dervish is about having all your hands occupied with weapons.

I'd go for incidental caster, not so much pure caster as everyone else is doing. Something along the lines of:
Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2/Wizard 1/Dervish 3/Bladesinger 3/Spellsword 3

That way, you end up casting 3rd level spells, you usually can Dervish Dance most of the time, you get Int to damage with a Scimitar(yet at the same time get more value out of it than you might otherwise)

Yet you still have a +14 BAB at the end of the day - don't have my books with me, I believe that a Bladesinger does fine with a Scimitar...
Genghis Cohen
12-04-06, 04:55 PM Its December and the next LGCS is probably less than three months away. Knowing that, I'd wait to see if Abjurant Champion becomes available. It mixes with Spellsword very nicely.
UMiskatonic
12-04-06, 05:12 PM I believe that a Bladesinger does fine with a Scimitar...[/QUOTE]

Actually, I think that Bladesinger requires longsword or rapier. That could pose a difficulty. However, a longsword is a slashing weapon if I remember correctly, so you could dance with it.

Won't be a light weapon, but that's ok.
Mommy was an Orc
12-04-06, 05:16 PM I believe that a Bladesinger does fine with a Scimitar...

Actually, I think that Bladesinger requires longsword or rapier. That could pose a difficulty. However, a longsword is a slashing weapon if I remember correctly, so you could dance with it.

Won't be a light weapon, but that's ok.[/QUOTE]

Bladesinger requires longsword or rapier to get into the PrC, I don't think it requires you to actually be wielding one. You can have WF: Longsword and meet both prereqs, then just use a Scimitar instead if you're a super high Dex build.
Reylance
12-04-06, 06:09 PM I've never been happy with a Bladesinger build. It really screams "Make me with three levels of Swashbuckler," but you need your other three levels to be Wiz2/Ftr1 or Wiz1/Ftr2. The former means a 20% XP penalty, and the latter means delaying 2nd level spells until 9th level. The class doesn't work well with Dervish, since the Weapon Focus feat that crosses both classes doesn't work with Weapon Finesse (important for a class that works best as a grey elf).

To build a Dervish, I'd suggest forgetting the Spellsword angle, as Dervish is a class worth taking all the way. I think Spellsword works best as a hard-hitting fighter who uses spells for defense and extra damage.
TWG_Prometheus
12-04-06, 11:07 PM Just going to concur with those who have noted that Dervish and Spellsword don't mix. Spellsword itself is dippable, but by the time you've acquired it, you're fairly committed to some sort of arcanist's path. Dervish, on the other hand, is a very level-hungry class that wants you to go as deep as you can to maximize the Dervish dance ability.

Add that to the incongruous prerequisites, and you have classes that are destined to be apart. Either one is pretty solid though. There's nothing wrong with a Spellsword or a Dervish that uses a Two-Bladed Sword.
clannagh
12-05-06, 12:26 AM when i was planning out a spellsword mommy was an orc suggested replacing 3 wizzie with 1 wizzie 2 ruathar ...

only problem is ruathar is one of those totally unmentioned classes in LGCS that arent restricted but still require special AR access but if you can pull it off it helps the build
Dragon9
12-05-06, 12:33 AM Just going to concur with those who have noted that Dervish and Spellsword don't mix.

That's what I thought. I was wondering if anyoen knew of a decent build that would work. Some things just aren't meant to be. :)
Mommy was an Orc
12-05-06, 10:19 AM when i was planning out a spellsword mommy was an orc suggested replacing 3 wizzie with 1 wizzie 2 ruathar ...

only problem is ruathar is one of those totally unmentioned classes in LGCS that arent restricted but still require special AR access but if you can pull it off it helps the build

Or if you belong to a Save an Elf Metaorg - 2 of them exist in Keoland...
clannagh
12-05-06, 07:09 PM Or if you belong to a Save an Elf Metaorg - 2 of them exist in Keoland...

I presume these metaorgs are not open to non-local membership :)
trollbill
12-06-06, 11:43 AM You might be able to find it if you look for it. My sorcerer was interested in taking some levels of Ruathar and guessed that a particular mod might offer it based solely on the blurb. He was correct.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dragon9 12-03-06, 11:43 PM	I will be trying a foray into Spellsword for my next character. And actually, I thought a spellsword Dervish would be really cool but I don't know how feasible that would be. Anyway, the idea came about from the minis fig Sword of Glory. (I think that's what it was called). Plate Mail and a double sword. So that's the concept. Any suggestions for optimal build? I was thinking Spellsword abilities for more self buffs than anythign else. Part of me thinks I wouldn't be able to fit dervish in there (I know I would have to go without the Plate Mail for that). Is there a good way to work both of those together?
Maesto 12-04-06, 01:17 AM	It'd be tough, but you might be able to pull it off. I'll see what I can cobble together. The problem with the concept is that spellsword and dervish just don't complement each other. Neither helps to qualify for the other's prerequisites, and nor do any of their abilities build upon the other class's abilities. That being said, for spellsword you need 4 BAB and 6 ranks in knowledge (arcana), as well as a fighter level (effectively) and 3 wizard levels (assuming you go for the wizard route). Note that you can do this as a sorcerer also. Eldritch Knight, a similar class, needs a fighter level and 5 wizard levels. Dervish needs 5 BAB, 4 feats, and 6 ranks (total) in cross-class skills. Also needs no shield and light armour. So I guess you'd be going for a mithril chain shirt or mithril breastplate (or possibly an adamantine chain shirt if you want the DR). So the maximum "ignore arcane spell failure" you need is going to be 15%, or 20% for the adamantine. Regardless, you're going to want 4 levels of spellsword, because the channel spell ability is just so cool and useful. And if you're going to take 4 levels, then the 5th level isn't bad at all anyway, so if you want the adamantine then you can take the 5th level, but this will basically be detracting from dervish levels, and you only get BAB and a casting level from it. So, how does this look? 1. Fighter, Combat Expertise, Dodge 2. Wizard, (Scribe Scroll) 3. Wizard, Mobility 4. Wizard 5. Wizard 6. Wizard, Craft Wondrous Item, Weapon Focus (any slashing weapon) 7. Spellsword 8. Spellsword, Power Attack 9. Spellsword, Elusive Target 10. Spellsword 11. Dervish 12. Dervish, Practised Spellcaster 13. Dervish 14. Dervish 15. Dervish, ? Fairly vanilla; 7 casting levels, 11th level caster. Alternatives are to dumb down the spellcasting a bit, and instead of taking 5 wizard levels to just take three and add in another fighter level, but then you lose craft wondrous item and all the benefits it brings (note that practised spellcaster basically means that you'll be able to craft most things; a 5th level of spellsword would give you the rest). Armour-wise, if all you want is to be able to run around in armour, then take a single level of spellsword and use a mithril chain shirt. Otherwise, I'd recommend the mithril breastplate, unless you particularly wanted 22 dex at some point in time. A more feat-oriented build would have a level of eldritch knight in there too, along with a second fighter level over the two wizard levels. It simply depends on whether you want more casting or more hitting. The choice is basically from 4th level spells and crafting goodness or 3rd level spells and two extra feats and more bab goodness. Sorry for the ramble, Jolyon
Morgen 12-04-06, 02:45 AM	Maybe instead of a spellsword dervish you might think more along the lines of a Bladesinger Dervish? It doesn't match up as much with the mini but seems to fit a bit more of the general class idea...
jstorrie 12-04-06, 03:14 AM	It is possible to do this, and this is a very decent build at the high levels, although low-level gishes are always a bit annoying. Arcane Strike is a more reliable damage bonus than Skirmish, and potentially bigger, too. Charisma only needs to be 14, or even 12 if you're going to wear a cape - you'll only be going up to 4th level spells, for Polymorph. Human 1 Fighter Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility 2 Sorceror 3 Sorceror EWP: Two-Bladed Sword 4 Sorceror 5 Sorceror 6 Sorceror WF: Two-Bladed Sword 7 Sorceror 8 Spellsword 9 Dervish Arcane Strike 10 Dervish 11 Dervish 12 Sorceror x 13 Dervish 14 Dervish 15 Dervish x
UMiskatonic 12-04-06, 11:47 AM	I'd vote for Bladesinger as well. You'll get to quicken spells, add in arcane strike, and then dance around the battlefield. The pre-reqs are also good matches for each other, what with Perform(dance) and all that.
Mommy was an Orc 12-04-06, 04:39 PM	I'd vote for Bladesinger as well. You'll get to quicken spells, add in arcane strike, and then dance around the battlefield. The pre-reqs are also good matches for each other, what with Perform(dance) and all that. Somewhat...the problem is that they force a Dervish to go the route of least effectiveness - Bladesinger mainly works when you have a weapon in one hand, Dervish is about having all your hands occupied with weapons. I'd go for incidental caster, not so much pure caster as everyone else is doing. Something along the lines of: Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2/Wizard 1/Dervish 3/Bladesinger 3/Spellsword 3 That way, you end up casting 3rd level spells, you usually can Dervish Dance most of the time, you get Int to damage with a Scimitar(yet at the same time get more value out of it than you might otherwise) Yet you still have a +14 BAB at the end of the day - don't have my books with me, I believe that a Bladesinger does fine with a Scimitar...
Genghis Cohen 12-04-06, 04:55 PM	Its December and the next LGCS is probably less than three months away. Knowing that, I'd wait to see if Abjurant Champion becomes available. It mixes with Spellsword very nicely.
UMiskatonic 12-04-06, 05:12 PM	I believe that a Bladesinger does fine with a Scimitar...[/QUOTE] Actually, I think that Bladesinger requires longsword or rapier. That could pose a difficulty. However, a longsword is a slashing weapon if I remember correctly, so you could dance with it. Won't be a light weapon, but that's ok.
Mommy was an Orc 12-04-06, 05:16 PM	I believe that a Bladesinger does fine with a Scimitar... Actually, I think that Bladesinger requires longsword or rapier. That could pose a difficulty. However, a longsword is a slashing weapon if I remember correctly, so you could dance with it. Won't be a light weapon, but that's ok.[/QUOTE] Bladesinger requires longsword or rapier to get into the PrC, I don't think it requires you to actually be wielding one. You can have WF: Longsword and meet both prereqs, then just use a Scimitar instead if you're a super high Dex build.
Reylance 12-04-06, 06:09 PM	I've never been happy with a Bladesinger build. It really screams "Make me with three levels of Swashbuckler," but you need your other three levels to be Wiz2/Ftr1 or Wiz1/Ftr2. The former means a 20% XP penalty, and the latter means delaying 2nd level spells until 9th level. The class doesn't work well with Dervish, since the Weapon Focus feat that crosses both classes doesn't work with Weapon Finesse (important for a class that works best as a grey elf). To build a Dervish, I'd suggest forgetting the Spellsword angle, as Dervish is a class worth taking all the way. I think Spellsword works best as a hard-hitting fighter who uses spells for defense and extra damage.
TWG_Prometheus 12-04-06, 11:07 PM	Just going to concur with those who have noted that Dervish and Spellsword don't mix. Spellsword itself is dippable, but by the time you've acquired it, you're fairly committed to some sort of arcanist's path. Dervish, on the other hand, is a very level-hungry class that wants you to go as deep as you can to maximize the Dervish dance ability. Add that to the incongruous prerequisites, and you have classes that are destined to be apart. Either one is pretty solid though. There's nothing wrong with a Spellsword or a Dervish that uses a Two-Bladed Sword.
clannagh 12-05-06, 12:26 AM	when i was planning out a spellsword mommy was an orc suggested replacing 3 wizzie with 1 wizzie 2 ruathar ... only problem is ruathar is one of those totally unmentioned classes in LGCS that arent restricted but still require special AR access but if you can pull it off it helps the build
Dragon9 12-05-06, 12:33 AM	Just going to concur with those who have noted that Dervish and Spellsword don't mix. That's what I thought. I was wondering if anyoen knew of a decent build that would work. Some things just aren't meant to be. :)
Mommy was an Orc 12-05-06, 10:19 AM	when i was planning out a spellsword mommy was an orc suggested replacing 3 wizzie with 1 wizzie 2 ruathar ... only problem is ruathar is one of those totally unmentioned classes in LGCS that arent restricted but still require special AR access but if you can pull it off it helps the build Or if you belong to a Save an Elf Metaorg - 2 of them exist in Keoland...
clannagh 12-05-06, 07:09 PM	Or if you belong to a Save an Elf Metaorg - 2 of them exist in Keoland... I presume these metaorgs are not open to non-local membership :)
trollbill 12-06-06, 11:43 AM	You might be able to find it if you look for it. My sorcerer was interested in taking some levels of Ruathar and guessed that a particular mod might offer it based solely on the blurb. He was correct.