Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zanzibax 04-20-07, 08:50 AM	I'm not really happy with either of these builds. I think both can be improved dramatically, but I have no idea how to do it. Tradeoffs: The cleric will have more spells, but fewer blasting-type spells. The druid will have fewer spells, but more that are appropriate for blasting, and energy substitution does not interfere with domain spell requirementes. This is what I have come up with so far: Human Str 8 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 16 Cha 12 Cleric of Nola Domain: Fire, Glory 1 Cleric Feats: Practiced Spellcaster, Point Blank Shot 2 Cleric 3 Cleric Feat: Precise Shot 4 Cleric Bump: Wis 5 Cleric 6 Cleric Feat: Domain Spontenaety 7 Cleric 8 Cleric Bump: Wis 9 Cleric Feat: Reach Spell Problem: Damage is limited to mostly fire damage, and the spell selection for blasting is harshly limited. A Druid Blaster might be better: Human Str 8 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 16 Cha 12 1 Druid Feats: Practiced Spellcaster, Point Blank Shot 2 Druid 3 Druid Feat: Precise Shot 4 Druid Bump: Wis 5 Druid 6 Druid Feat: Reach Spell 7 Druid 8 Druid Bump: Wis 9 Druid Feat: Energy Substitution
kjenks 04-20-07, 10:14 AM	A druid blaster, I can help with. My attempt at a cleric blaster build fell flat -- too few blasty spells and the few that were there were too wimpy. Here's a build based on my druid "archer" character: Deep Halfling, druid all the way Str 8-2=6, Dex 14+2=16, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 8 1 Scribe Scroll (retrain to Two-Weapon Fighting when you hit level 5 or 6) 3 Craft Wondrous Item (retrain to Spell Focus (Evocation) when you hit level 15) 6 Empower Spell 9 Energy Substitution (Acid) 12 Quicken Spell 15 Metamagic School Focus (Evocation) Skills: Ride, Handle Animal, Knowledge (Arcana), Spellcraft, Spot, Listen (with halfling +2 bonus). Survival is nice for living wild, but not really necessary. Blast with Produce Flame. Use metamagic feats to make it work even better. Use Two-Weapon Fighting to hurl two or more per round. Empower Spell works really well with Produce Flame, changing the damage from the 6-11 range to the 9-16 range. A metamagic rod of Extend helps, too. A metamagic rod of Quicken would really rock. Boots of Speed would be nice, too (but my halfling must be barefoot for religious reasons). Make use of the the halfling Dex bonus, size bonus on attacks and +1 with hurled weapons. Since Produce Flame allows a ranged touch attack, you'll hit most of the time. Energy Admixture would be nice, too. When fighting something that's hard to hit this way (due to AC, SR, immunity, whatever), summon a critter. The rather vague spell description leads to a lot of table variation. Some DMs allow you to hurl a ball of fire in the same round that you cast Produce Flame. Most DMs allow TWF with Produce Flame, so that the ball of fire appears in whichever hand you choose. Some DMs allow you to share your Produce Flame spell with your animal companion, so that its bit also inflicts fire damage. This is all gravy on top of the main blasting goodness: Multiple ranged touch attacks per round, like an archer with a Wraith Strike bow. Ride a wolf animal companion at first, then a dire bat from level 4 onward. Riding your mount keeps you out of danger most of the time, but you can hurl flame or cast spells with no trouble. As your dire bat advances, select Tumble as a cross-class skill and Fly-by Attack as its first feat. At level 12+, you can ride a flying Phantom Stag spell instead, using your dire bat for back-up or changing to a melee beast. While you have the feat, scribe lots of scrolls that are not on the DMG list. Pay for the price difference later. Craft Gloves of Dex, Periapt of Wisdom, Cloak or Vest of Resistance, etc. Craft some things for your mount, too, like Amulet of Health and Cloak of Res. When you retrain out of Craft Wondrous, just pay the difference for all the stuff you've crafted. Naturally, since you're a straight druid, you have all of the other druid blasty goodness, like Arc of Lightning and Flame Strike. You can use your Energy Substitution feat on these, too.
kjenks 04-20-07, 10:17 AM	If your attack bonus is big enough, or if you can choose a target that's not in melee, you don't really need Precise Shot. I've found that I don't miss it much. It's effectively +5 on your attack bonus in a relatively limited situation, but it costs two feats that you can use for more blasty power.
_metz_ 04-20-07, 10:38 AM	Firstly, Arcane does so much a better blaster, Divine isn't as good at it. (Who loves orbs lol) MOST IMPORTANLY: You have wasted a feat in both builds. Practiced Spellcaster cannot allow your caster level to exceed your hit dice. HENCE it works great if you have multiclassed, or don't have full caster progression. UTTERLY useless if you do have full caster progression, as you spellcaster level equals your hit Die in both cases. Lose the Prac. Spell. if I were you, look into a warmage or a sorceror if you like blasting things.
Zanzibax 04-20-07, 10:41 AM	Firstly, Arcane does so much a better blaster, Divine isn't as good at it. (Who loves orbs lol) MOST IMPORTANLY: You have wasted a feat in both builds. Practiced Spellcaster cannot allow your caster level to exceed your hit dice. HENCE it works great if you have multiclassed, or don't have full caster progression. UTTERLY useless if you do have full caster progression, as you spellcaster level equals your hit Die in both cases. Lose the Prac. Spell. if I were you, look into a warmage or a sorceror if you like blasting things. Nope...I do not want a warmage or a sorceror blaster. I want a clerical or druidic blaster for it's other abilities, hit points, BAB, and such when blasting is no longer necessary or inappropriate. I know what I want.
KShaver 04-20-07, 10:41 AM	Practiced spellcaster doesn't help either of your builds as listed. You have to have a caster level lower than your character level for it to do anything, and both of your builds are full casters. Druid spells tend to work a lot better for nuking, but they also tend to be DC heavy, so keep your DCs up. Also note most of them don't have the upfront punch that wizard/sorc spells do, but they tend to be a lot more efficient per spell cast on their damage dealt in the long run.
Zanzibax 04-20-07, 11:58 AM	Practiced spellcaster doesn't help either of your builds as listed. You have to have a caster level lower than your character level for it to do anything, and both of your builds are full casters. Druid spells tend to work a lot better for nuking, but they also tend to be DC heavy, so keep your DCs up. Also note most of them don't have the upfront punch that wizard/sorc spells do, but they tend to be a lot more efficient per spell cast on their damage dealt in the long run. Ok... 1 Cleric Feats: Reach Spell, Point Blank Shot 2 Cleric 3 Cleric Feat: Precise Shot 4 Cleric Bump: Wis 5 Cleric 6 Cleric Feat: Domain Spontenaety 7 Cleric 8 Cleric Bump: Wis 9 Cleric Feat: Energy Substitution Problem: Damage is limited to mostly fire damage, and the spell selection for blasting is harshly limited. A Druid Blaster might be better: Human Str 8 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 16 Cha 12 1 Druid Feats: Reach Spell, Point Blank Shot 2 Druid 3 Druid Feat: Precise Shot 4 Druid Bump: Wis 5 Druid 6 Druid Feat: Natural Spell 7 Druid 8 Druid Bump: Wis 9 Druid Feat: Energy Substitution =============================== If your attack bonus is big enough, or if you can choose a target that's not in melee, you don't really need Precise Shot. I've found that I don't miss it much. It's effectively +5 on your attack bonus in a relatively limited situation, but it costs two feats that you can use for more blasty power. What do I replace them with given my intent to build a blaster that can use touch spells at range? Two weapon fighting sounds good to allow for 2 produce flames hurled per round...with possible energy substitution...for a druid. Maybe Empower Spell as well? 1.5 * (1d6+level (max 5)) 9 points per hit, per level...perhaps twice in a round?
Jay_Ibero_911 04-20-07, 12:17 PM	Druid blaster? Take the storm bolt reserve feat at level 6. 3d6 line of electricity with no SR or save unlimited times per day...just keep a call lightning preped to power it...Heighten spell and metamagic school focus for more power...Works just as well with a cleric with one of the domains that gets call lightning and call lightning storm. Race: Alignment: STR- () DEX- () CON- () INT- () WIS- () CHA- () Lv1(Druid)Spell Focus (Evocation) Lv2(Druid) Lv3(Druid)Heighten Spell Lv4(Druid)+1 WIS Lv5(Druid) Lv6(Druid)Storm Bolt Lv7(Druid) Lv8(Druid)+1 WIS Lv9(Druid)Metamagic School Focus Lv10(Druid) Lv11(Druid) Lv12(Druid)Invisible Needle, +1 WIS Lv13(Druid) Lv14(Druid) Lv15(Druid)Feat Race and stats don't matter, but human would give you room for craft wondrous. At 9th level, you us metamagic school focus to hieghten call lightning storm to 6th level, giving you 6d6 storm bolts. At 12th level you use MMSF to heighten both call lightning storm and enveloping coccoon(conveniently a force type evocation for druids) and either do 7d6 lines of electricity or 7d4 ranged attacks with force darts. PLus all the other crap a straight druid has at their disposal... [Edit] Alternately you can take Heighten Spell, energy substitution (acid), Acidic Splatter and Storm Bolt, for acid and electricity coverage.
Sieylianna 04-20-07, 06:15 PM	Druids are much better blasters than clerics, getting flame strike and arc of lightning as fourth level spells instead of fifth. The only ranged touch spell I remember my druid using is produce flame. I'm not sure that there are enough druidic spells which require a touch to make reach spell, point blank and precise shot worthwhile. My druid has never needed them and she generally sends her tiger into melee while she nukes things from behind it. Ed
Zanzibax 04-20-07, 07:13 PM	I never heard of the storm bolt reserve feat. Where is it? Druid blaster? Take the storm bolt reserve feat at level 6. 3d6 line of electricity with no SR or save unlimited times per day...just keep a call lightning preped to power it...Heighten spell and metamagic school focus for more power...Works just as well with a cleric with one of the domains that gets call lightning and call lightning storm. Race: Alignment: STR- () DEX- () CON- () INT- () WIS- () CHA- () Lv1(Druid)Spell Focus (Evocation) Lv2(Druid) Lv3(Druid)Heighten Spell Lv4(Druid)+1 WIS Lv5(Druid) Lv6(Druid)Storm Bolt Lv7(Druid) Lv8(Druid)+1 WIS Lv9(Druid)Metamagic School Focus Lv10(Druid) Lv11(Druid) Lv12(Druid)Invisible Needle, +1 WIS Lv13(Druid) Lv14(Druid) Lv15(Druid)Feat Race and stats don't matter, but human would give you room for craft wondrous. At 9th level, you us metamagic school focus to hieghten call lightning storm to 6th level, giving you 6d6 storm bolts. At 12th level you use MMSF to heighten both call lightning storm and enveloping coccoon(conveniently a force type evocation for druids) and either do 7d6 lines of electricity or 7d4 ranged attacks with force darts. PLus all the other crap a straight druid has at their disposal... [Edit] Alternately you can take Heighten Spell, energy substitution (acid), Acidic Splatter and Storm Bolt, for acid and electricity coverage.
copper_wyrmling 04-20-07, 07:31 PM	The rather vague spell description leads to a lot of table variation. Some DMs allow you to hurl a ball of fire in the same round that you cast Produce Flame. Most DMs allow TWF with Produce Flame, so that the ball of fire appears in whichever hand you choose. I've played a Fire domain cleric with TWF from L1 to L15 in LG. My experience has been that there's no clear majority ruling either way on making a single attack in the same round that you cast the spell, but no GM has ever allowed my cleric to use Produce Flame with TWF, and it's not because I haven't asked. Ken's experiences have obviously been different - regional variation, I guess, but it might be worth checking with local GMs before you spend a feat on TWF if you're only planning to use it with this spell.
Zanzibax 04-20-07, 07:54 PM	I've played a Fire domain cleric with TWF from L1 to L15 in LG. My experience has been that there's no clear majority ruling either way on making a single attack in the same round that you cast the spell, but no GM has ever allowed my cleric to use Produce Flame with TWF, and it's not because I haven't asked. Ken's experiences have obviously been different - regional variation, I guess, but it might be worth checking with local GMs before you spend a feat on TWF if you're only planning to use it with this spell. What was the reasoning? The spell clearly states that you ... oh ... the spell clearly states "hand" singular. However, rapid shot and iterative attacks should be unquestioned.
Mommy was an Orc 04-20-07, 08:25 PM	If I were going to do a Cleric blaster, I would pick Nola, but I'd make her slightly differently... Str 8, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 18, Cha 10 1 Cleric 1(Sun, Fire): Domain Spont: Fire, Extra Turning 3 Cleric 3: CWI(need to craft that +6 Wisdom Periapt...) 6 Cleric 6: ? 7 Radiant Servant of Nola 1 9 RSoN 3: ? 11: RSoN 5: Air Domain 12: Contemplative 1: Glory, Domain Spont: Air Domain 13: RSoN 6 14: RSoN 7 15: RSoN 8: ? The ? marks for feats where it isn't 100% clear what feat you'd put in there. But it gets you a lot more domains - Air Domain is mainly taken for Chain Lightning... :) Phyton works pretty well also - Water is a nice blaster domain - Ice Storm, Cone of Cold, Acid Fog, and Horrid Wilting. My variation on this is a likely cleric build I might play - Atroa for Sun, Travel, Air, Glory, and Divine Oracle for Oracle. Then add 1 more Domain Spont for some serious 'Cleric, who me?' power.
Zanzibax 04-20-07, 10:46 PM	If I were going to do a Cleric blaster, I would pick Nola, but I'd make her slightly differently... Str 8, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 18, Cha 10 1 Cleric 1(Sun, Fire): Domain Spont: Fire, Extra Turning 3 Cleric 3: CWI(need to craft that +6 Wisdom Periapt...) 6 Cleric 6: ? 7 Radiant Servant of Nola 1 9 RSoN 3: ? 11: RSoN 5: Air Domain 12: Contemplative 1: Glory, Domain Spont: Air Domain 13: RSoN 6 14: RSoN 7 15: RSoN 8: ? The ? marks for feats where it isn't 100% clear what feat you'd put in there. But it gets you a lot more domains - Air Domain is mainly taken for Chain Lightning... :) Phyton works pretty well also - Water is a nice blaster domain - Ice Storm, Cone of Cold, Acid Fog, and Horrid Wilting. My variation on this is a likely cleric build I might play - Atroa for Sun, Travel, Air, Glory, and Divine Oracle for Oracle. Then add 1 more Domain Spont for some serious 'Cleric, who me?' power. I think your extra domains have pretty much squashed the blasting power.
Mommy was an Orc 04-20-07, 11:08 PM	I think your extra domains have pretty much squashed the blasting power. Not sure what you mean by that: 18 Wis, level it, and +6 Amulet = really nice DC for saves. Fire = Burning Hands, Produce Flame, Wall of Fire, Fire Shield, Fire Seeds, Firestorm, Incendiary Cloud. Sun = Heat Metal, Searing Light, Flame Strike, Sunbeam, Sunburst Glory = Holy Smite, Bolt of Glory Air = Air Walk, Control Winds, Chain Lightning, Whirlwind Unfortunately, the domains have a bit of overlap, but that's a pretty wide range of blasting - particularly the Chain Lightning - and you've got 3 feats to make them nasty or make another domain spontaneous.
Zanzibax 04-21-07, 11:22 AM	Not sure what you mean by that: 18 Wis, level it, and +6 Amulet = really nice DC for saves. Fire = Burning Hands, Produce Flame, Wall of Fire, Fire Shield, Fire Seeds, Firestorm, Incendiary Cloud. Sun = Heat Metal, Searing Light, Flame Strike, Sunbeam, Sunburst Glory = Holy Smite, Bolt of Glory Air = Air Walk, Control Winds, Chain Lightning, Whirlwind Unfortunately, the domains have a bit of overlap, but that's a pretty wide range of blasting - particularly the Chain Lightning - and you've got 3 feats to make them nasty or make another domain spontaneous. Simple...no matter how many domains you have, you only get 1 domain spell. Domain Spontaneity helps by allowing you to burn turning attempts for your highest level (or best) spell...for one domain at a time??...but you're lowering your ability to do damage, which, I believe, lies in your metamagic feats. I think the build needs energy admixture by level 9 to be blastworthy.
Mommy was an Orc 04-21-07, 02:46 PM	Simple...no matter how many domains you have, you only get 1 domain spell. Domain Spontaneity helps by allowing you to burn turning attempts for your highest level (or best) spell...for one domain at a time??...but you're lowering your ability to do damage, which, I believe, lies in your metamagic feats. I think the build needs energy admixture by level 9 to be blastworthy. He's got three feat slots open for blasting feats including the critical 6/9 feats - Domain Spontaneity doesn't lower your damage - it means you can keep it up for more than 1 round at a time. At 12th, he wants to throw 3 Chain Lightnings in a single combat, he can do that...
katrick 04-21-07, 04:25 PM	just a couple of notes here: If you take Reach spell, it's no good until 3rd,though a reach cure minor 2nd stops deaths. And you will want precise.(divine BAB needs the +4) As someone posted, something about BAB etc. useless with Str 8 in any melee form(unless your a halfling with expertise). Stormlord if you are going to throw weapons(you will run out of spells, and you have the Dex) Mommy's Cleric can rebuke/turn all Elementals, so memorize some Summons, and of course Elemental healing, Augment Summoning, etc. Along the way definately take Sub and Admixture(druid or Cleric it still doubles your damage) and of course Empower or Suddenn empower if access. All these builds look solid, it's a matter of Feats. katrick
Zanzibax 04-21-07, 07:21 PM	just a couple of notes here: If you take Reach spell, it's no good until 3rd,though a reach cure minor 2nd stops deaths. And you will want precise.(divine BAB needs the +4) As someone posted, something about BAB etc. useless with Str 8 in any melee form(unless your a halfling with expertise). Stormlord if you are going to throw weapons(you will run out of spells, and you have the Dex) Mommy's Cleric can rebuke/turn all Elementals, so memorize some Summons, and of course Elemental healing, Augment Summoning, etc. Along the way definately take Sub and Admixture(druid or Cleric it still doubles your damage) and of course Empower or Suddenn empower if access. All these builds look solid, it's a matter of Feats. katrick After building a druid...I'm pretty sure it won't run out of spells...actually. *evil chuckle* I wanted Rapid Shot...and that requires point blank. 1 Point Blank, Rapid Shot 3 Extend Spell 6 Empower Spell 9 Energy Substitution 12 Energy Admixture... Energy Substitution can only be had at 7th level for a Druid, it's cross-class. I wanted Energy Admixture at 9th level...oh well. Things are somewhat better if I use a straight cleric, 1 Domain Spontaneity, Extra Turning 3 Reach Spell 6 Energy Substitution 9 Energy Admixture Heat Metal and such are touch spells. The damage...eh...not so good for blasting still. However, yes...I can prepare ranged healing spells and other nastiness...but still not fast for putting out damage. Remember, most combats only last half-a-dozen rounds. So now the challenge is to lay out as much damage as possible as fast as possible. Can you improve the damage output?
Jay_Ibero_911 04-22-07, 02:06 AM	I never heard of the storm bolt reserve feat. Where is it? Storm Bolt, along with all the other reserve feats, are from complete mage, and are open access, with a few exceptions.
Zanzibax 04-22-07, 04:24 AM	Storm Bolt, along with all the other reserve feats, are from complete mage, and are open access, with a few exceptions. It's in "Complete Mage".
kjenks 04-22-07, 09:37 AM	So now the challenge is to lay out as much damage as possible as fast as possible. Can you improve the damage output? With multiple attacks, my deep halfling druid 10 often inflicts more than 40 HP/round of Empower + Produce Flame damage. His dire bat often contributes 10-20 HP, too. With enough time to buff up, sharing Resist Energy (Fire) and Empower + Body of the Sun and Thornskin and Beast Claws, the druid and the dire bat can do more than 80 HP per round -- and an extra 30 or so with Haste. That's usually enough damage to contribute significantly at APL 10.
Evanta 04-22-07, 10:22 AM	Is there a way for the druid to get around the SR problem?
kjenks 04-22-07, 10:29 AM	Back-up plans in case of SR: Summon critters, use Arc of Lightning, buff up the rest of the party. The character has been quite effective so far. I just rebuilt him to be closer to that build I listed above, so I'll see how he works out soon.
Zanzibax 04-22-07, 11:20 AM	With multiple attacks, my deep halfling druid 10 often inflicts more than 40 HP/round of Empower + Produce Flame damage. His dire bat often contributes 10-20 HP, too. With enough time to buff up, sharing Resist Energy (Fire) and Empower + Body of the Sun and Thornskin and Beast Claws, the druid and the dire bat can do more than 80 HP per round -- and an extra 30 or so with Haste. That's usually enough damage to contribute significantly at APL 10. How are you getting your multiple attacks? What's your feat stack?
Jay_Ibero_911 04-22-07, 11:22 AM	Is there a way for the druid to get around the SR problem? Yeah, reserve feats, arc of lightning, cometfall, fire seeds, and summon nature's ally.
Zanzibax 04-22-07, 11:23 AM	Is there a way for the druid to get around the SR problem? Arc of Lightning...which may need to be combined with energy substitution. Arc of Lightning is a 4th level spell.
kjenks 04-22-07, 11:51 AM	How are you getting your multiple attacks? What's your feat stack? http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12159668&postcount=2 High BAB and TWF give multiple attacks with Produce Flame, depending on some DM interpretation.
Zanzibax 04-22-07, 12:39 PM	http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12159668&postcount=2 High BAB and TWF give multiple attacks with Produce Flame, depending on some DM interpretation. Ok...I saw that...I think I'll get less table variation with rapid shot...but it eats up 2 feats instead of just one. Which means...no empower...or take a level of fighter and lose a level of casting.
Zanzibax 04-22-07, 12:41 PM	With multiple attacks, my deep halfling druid 10 often inflicts more than 40 HP/round of Empower + Produce Flame damage. His dire bat often contributes 10-20 HP, too. With enough time to buff up, sharing Resist Energy (Fire) and Empower + Body of the Sun and Thornskin and Beast Claws, the druid and the dire bat can do more than 80 HP per round -- and an extra 30 or so with Haste. That's usually enough damage to contribute significantly at APL 10. Is your dire bat doing touch attacks or actual attacks and tacking the Produce Flame damage on with the odd chance that it hits?
kjenks 04-22-07, 06:01 PM	Is your dire bat doing touch attacks or actual attacks and tacking the Produce Flame damage on with the odd chance that it hits? Using Share Spell with Produce Flame is purely a DM call. It might work, it might not. Here are some of the interpretations I've found from various DMs: (1) You can't do that. (2) You can do that, but your animal will be scared out of its mind and unable to function rationally while it's "on fire." (3) You can do that, but the flame appears in the bat's claws, which are not used while making attacks. (4) You can do that, and the flame appears in the bat's mouth, so you can tack on extra Produce Flame damage if the bat hits with a normal bite attack. (5) You can do that, but the flame appears in the bat's claws, and the bat can then choose whether to bite or hurl the flame as a ranged touch attack. I just see it as gravy if I get (3) through (5). If I get a (3), I can usually share a Beast Claws spell -- not as much damage as a bite attack, but the claw gets to add the Produce Flame damage and the bat gets two of them on a (rare) full attack. The bat can hit pretty often and pretty hard with its bite attack if I stack on Greater Magic Fang (all day) and Nature's Favor (swift).
jstorrie 04-22-07, 07:04 PM	You may wish to note that Metamagic School Focus: Conjuration (which affects some of the top-tier Druid blasting spells–Cometfall and Arc of Lightning, as well as Fire Seeds) has the same prerequisite as Augmented Summoning. Rapid Summon Nature's Ally is a 'blast' of its own, as well. There's a lot of synergy here for a caster druid that is a hybrid blaster-healer-summoner. You could consider Human 1 Druid: Spell Focus: Conjuration, Metamagic School Focus: Conjuration 2 Druid 3 Druid: Augment Summoning 4 Druid 5 Druid 6 Druid: Rapid Spell or Natural Spell 7 Druid 8 Druid 9 Druid: Empower Spell 10 Druid 11 Druid 12 Druid: Craft Wondrous Item/Spontaneous Healer/Quicken Spell 13 Druid 14 Druid 15 Druid: Craft Wondrous Item/Spontaneous Healer/Quicken Spell Simple and easy. There's not a lot of point in focusing on blasting in the early game, and I disagree with the usefulness of Produce Flame–it's very low damage output and eats up your precious actions for little return. Once you get past the first couple of levels (when summoning, without the Summoner/Good domain combination, is useless) you should have useful options for every spell slot, and being able to throw around reduced-cost Empowered Arc of Lightning/Cometfall is more than enough blasting potential for most situations.
Jay_Ibero_911 04-22-07, 07:12 PM	Step 1: Energy Immunity (Fire) Step 2: Empowered Fire Seeds, holly berry bomb version Step 3: Kamikaze charge! 8d8+120*1.5=~12d8+180. Of course this is at level 15...but still.
Zanzibax 04-22-07, 07:16 PM	You may wish to note that Metamagic School Focus: Conjuration (which affects some of the top-tier Druid blasting spells–Cometfall and Arc of Lightning, as well as Fire Seeds) has the same prerequisite as Augmented Summoning. Rapid Summon Nature's Ally is a 'blast' of its own, as well. There's a lot of synergy here for a caster druid that is a hybrid blaster-healer-caster. You could consider Human 1 Druid: Spell Focus: Conjuration, Metamagic School Focus: Conjuration 2 Druid 3 Druid: Augment Summoning 4 Druid 5 Druid 6 Druid: Rapid Spell or Natural Spell 7 Druid 8 Druid 9 Druid: Empower Spell 10 Druid 11 Druid 12 Druid: Craft Wondrous Item/Spontaneous Healer/Quicken Spell 13 Druid 14 Druid 15 Druid: Craft Wondrous Item/Spontaneous Healer/Quicken Spell Simple and easy. There's not a lot of point in focusing on blasting in the early game, and I disagree with the usefulness of Produce Flame–it's very low damage output and eats up your precious actions for little return. Once you get past the first couple of levels (when summoning, without the Summoner/Good domain combination, is useless) you should have useful options for every spell slot, and being able to throw around reduced-cost Empowered Arc of Lightning/Cometfall is more than enough blasting potential for most situations. You don't have a blaster...period.
Zanzibax 04-22-07, 07:17 PM	Step 1: Energy Immunity (Fire) Step 2: Empowered Fire Seeds, holly berry bomb version Step 3: Kamikaze charge! 8d8+120*1.5=~12d8+180. Of course this is at level 15...but still. Interesting tactic...definitely something to consider. Levels 1-9 are the blasting places for my consideration (as you can probably see).
Zanzibax 04-22-07, 07:19 PM	Using Share Spell with Produce Flame is purely a DM call. It might work, it might not. Here are some of the interpretations I've found from various DMs: (1) You can't do that. (2) You can do that, but your animal will be scared out of its mind and unable to function rationally while it's "on fire." (3) You can do that, but the flame appears in the bat's claws, which are not used while making attacks. (4) You can do that, and the flame appears in the bat's mouth, so you can tack on extra Produce Flame damage if the bat hits with a normal bite attack. (5) You can do that, but the flame appears in the bat's claws, and the bat can then choose whether to bite or hurl the flame as a ranged touch attack. I just see it as gravy if I get (3) through (5). If I get a (3), I can usually share a Beast Claws spell -- not as much damage as a bite attack, but the claw gets to add the Produce Flame damage and the bat gets two of them on a (rare) full attack. The bat can hit pretty often and pretty hard with its bite attack if I stack on Greater Magic Fang (all day) and Nature's Favor (swift). I would use something that actually has claws, myself...not a bat...so that I don't have to rely upon a DM's ruling on "bite". Ruling (2) assumes a normal animal with no link to the druid...kinda stupid...but We All Know there are stupid DMs out there.
boogahwoof 04-22-07, 07:33 PM	Heres my opinion on a cleric "blaster" human worshipper of St. Cuthbert L.N. allign str 10 dex 14 con 12 int 10 wis 15 cha 14 1 cleric reach spell spntaneouse wounder 2 cleric 3 cleric extra turning 4 cleric +1 wis 5 cleric 6 cleric profane boost 7 cleric 8 cleric +1 dex 9 cleric extra turning By 9th level you will be effective for the role of cleric of the party, and you can use your turning attempts to boost your touch inflict spells. Some of your domain spells if you choose destruction include inflict spells as well. This is a very simple and i am sure can be well improved upon build.
Jay_Ibero_911 04-22-07, 07:37 PM	Heres my opinion on a cleric "blaster" human worshipper of St. Cuthbert L.N. allign str 10 dex 14 con 12 int 10 wis 15 cha 14 1 cleric reach spell spntaneouse wounder 2 cleric 3 cleric extra turning 4 cleric +1 wis 5 cleric 6 cleric profane boost 7 cleric 8 cleric +1 dex 9 cleric extra turning By 9th level you will be effective for the role of cleric of the party, and you can use your turning attempts to boost your touch inflict spells. Some of your domain spells if you choose destruction include inflict spells as well. This is a very simple and i am sure can be well improved upon build. The drawback there is that inflict spells are evil acts, and relying heavily on them could result in many notations/reportings.
Timlagor 04-22-07, 07:41 PM	I would use something that actually has claws, myself...not a bat...so that I don't have to rely upon a DM's ruling on "bite". Ruling (2) assumes a normal animal with no link to the druid...kinda stupid...but We All Know there are stupid DMs out there. ACs are still Int 2
jstorrie 04-22-07, 07:44 PM	You don't have a blaster...period. For someone who came asking for help you certainly have an interesting way of showing gratitude. None of your posted builds possess significantly more 'blasting power' than what I suggested above. Druids have blasting potential right out of the box. It's already been pointed out to you in this thread that taking ranged attack feats are unnecessary, and metamagic feats are not useful at the low levels, so what exactly do you think you're going to get? Some trick that lets you throw 12d6 fireballs at APL 4? I just offered you a practical answer to your request. Be polite.
Zanzibax 04-22-07, 08:04 PM	For someone who came asking for help you certainly have an interesting way of showing gratitude. None of your posted builds possess significantly more 'blasting power' than what I suggested above. Druids have blasting potential right out of the box. It's already been pointed out to you in this thread that taking ranged attack feats are unnecessary, and metamagic feats are not useful at the low levels, so what exactly do you think you're going to get? Some trick that lets you throw 12d6 fireballs at APL 4? I just offered you a practical answer to your request. Be polite. Sure they do...and the halfling druid presented *CAN* put out some 80 hp of damage. Yes...you did point out that taking ranged attack feats are unnecessary. That's probably why you don't realize the damage that can be done. I've worked out a couple of builds now...and...APL 4 you say? At that APL, with a build I've left offline, while hoping to find something better, I can put out 2d6+8 in 2 ranged touch attacks with no save for 4 rounds with a single spell. That's 8 ranged touch attacks, at 1d6+4 each for a total of 8d6+32 for a single spell, within 4 rounds. Which isn't bad at all for a blaster. At higher APLs, the damage improves. I appreciate your help, you're trying to build what you think is a better druid. Your druid though, is not a blaster. There was no insult intended in pointing out that fact.
Zanzibax 04-22-07, 08:05 PM	The drawback there is that inflict spells are evil acts, and relying heavily on them could result in many notations/reportings. You gotta admit though...that was funny...and did in fact address the topic: Blasting
Zanzibax 04-22-07, 08:09 PM	ACs are still Int 2 Then they should panic under most spell conditions and certainly refuse to fight for the druid...for the same reason.
boogahwoof 04-22-07, 08:59 PM	How about a solid cleric with a lil blast nastiness? Human St. Cuthbert domains: destruction, law str 10, dex 14, con 12, int 10, wis 15, cha 14 1 cleric reach spell spontaneouse wounder 2 cleric 3 cleric profane boost 4 cleric +1 wis 5 cleric 6 cleric extra turning 7 cleric 8 cleric +1 wis 9 cleric augmented healing This way you at least stay a useful addition to the party by being hte cleric, but you can add a lil flare with the maximized inflict reach spell. Some of your domain spells from destruction are inflicts as well. And since you dont focus on weaponry for damage you can alot most of your money to stat enhancement items or armor
Sieylianna 04-22-07, 08:59 PM	I would use something that actually has claws, myself...not a bat...so that I don't have to rely upon a DM's ruling on "bite". Ruling (2) assumes a normal animal with no link to the druid...kinda stupid...but We All Know there are stupid DMs out there. My only real problem with share spell is when you try to use it to "twin" an offensive spell. No, I'm not going to let you share your ray of enfeeblement with your familiar, so you have two attacks. I would let your dire bat use it, but I wouldn't let you and your bat get full benefit out of one offensive spell. Ed
Zanzibax 04-22-07, 09:05 PM	My only real problem with share spell is when you try to use it to "twin" an offensive spell. No, I'm not going to let you share your ray of enfeeblement with your familiar, so you have two attacks. I would let your dire bat use it, but I wouldn't let you and your bat get full benefit out of one offensive spell. Ed Understandable.
Zanzibax 04-22-07, 09:19 PM	How about a solid cleric with a lil blast nastiness? Human St. Cuthbert domains: destruction, law str 10, dex 14, con 12, int 10, wis 15, cha 14 1 cleric reach spell spontaneouse wounder 2 cleric 3 cleric profane boost 4 cleric +1 wis 5 cleric 6 cleric extra turning 7 cleric 8 cleric +1 wis 9 cleric augmented healing This way you at least stay a useful addition to the party by being hte cleric, but you can add a lil flare with the maximized inflict reach spell. Some of your domain spells from destruction are inflicts as well. And since you dont focus on weaponry for damage you can alot most of your money to stat enhancement items or armor Personally, I like Nola more...I might not need the reach spell and can concentrate on meta-magic feats...let's see...something like: Human Nola domains: Fire, Air str 8, dex 14, con 14, int 10, wis 16, cha 14 1 cleric Domain Spontaneity: Fire, Extra Turning 2 cleric 3 cleric Empower Spell 4 cleric +1 wis 5 cleric 6 cleric Energy Substitution (Electricity) 7 Radiant Servant of Nola (1) 8 Radiant Servant of Nola (2) +1 wis 9 Radiant Servant of Nola (3) Energy Admixture (Electricity) I think I can justify energy substitution a domain spell from the fire domain for the air domain, so long as it is electricity. It's blast-worthy, but not as blasty as the druid, and has a vast versatility to back off blasting for the walking medicine-box that is just about the one role clerics fill well...if there are adequate arcane blasters available.
jstorrie 04-22-07, 09:19 PM	Are you talking about Produce Flame with Rapid Shot in your example, Zanzibax? At APL4 you're only going to get four shots out of that. It's not a terrible use of a first-level slot, but you'd blast more effectively by just dropping down a Flaming Sphere or Creeping Cold. Produce Flame doesn't scale up very well, either, after the initial bump Rapid Shot gives you, so I really don't know why you'd want to devote feats and your race-stat selection to optimizing something that is only competitive from levels 1 to 3. The strong blasting options for druids do not really include Produce Flame. They're Summon Nature's Ally for pouncing critters or rhinos, Arc of Lightning, Flame Strike, Cometfall, Creeping Cold, and Flaming Sphere. That's why I suggested you focus on conjuration, since it covers a good half of those options while also giving you versatility. Add the numbers up–even with archery feats, Produce Flame isn't going to keep pace with the higher-up options in the druid's arsenal.
Zanzibax 04-22-07, 09:26 PM	Are you talking about Produce Flame with Rapid Shot in your example, Zanzibax? At APL4 you're only going to get four shots out of that. It's not a terrible use of a first-level slot, but you'd blast more effectively by just dropping down a Flaming Sphere or Creeping Cold. Produce Flame doesn't scale up very well, either, after the initial bump Rapid Shot gives you, so I really don't know why you'd want to devote feats and your race-stat selection to optimizing something that is only competitive from levels 1 to 3. The strong blasting options for druids do not really include Produce Flame. They're Summon Nature's Ally for pouncing critters or rhinos, Arc of Lightning, Flame Strike, Cometfall, Creeping Cold, and Flaming Sphere. That's why I suggested you focus on conjuration, since it covers a good half of those options while also giving you versatility. Add the numbers up–even with archery feats, Produce Flame isn't going to keep pace with the higher-up options in the druid's arsenal. That's ok...I simply disagree.
King Kashue 04-23-07, 12:49 AM	That's ok...I simply disagree. You're spending 2 (really 3) feats to add 7.5 points of damage per round to one spell... He's not the only one who thinks that's a bad return on investment...
copper_wyrmling 04-23-07, 01:14 AM	At that APL, with a build I've left offline, while hoping to find something better, I can put out 2d6+8 in 2 ranged touch attacks with no save for 4 rounds with a single spell. That's 8 ranged touch attacks, at 1d6+4 each for a total of 8d6+32 for a single spell, within 4 rounds. Which isn't bad at all for a blaster. At higher APLs, the damage improves. I appreciate your help, you're trying to build what you think is a better druid. Your druid though, is not a blaster. There was no insult intended in pointing out that fact. Just to clarify what others were saying: you get one attack / caster level with Produce Flame, at best - the duration is minutes / level and each shot reduces the duration by one minute. Extending it would work, if that's what you're doing - that does require that you're playing a human and took Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot and Extend Spell as your three feats, though. Oh, and the way my cleric does the Energy Immunity + Fire Seeds trick in practice is: Previous night: cast Energy Immunity (Fire) Before entering dungeon: cast Extended (Empowered) Fire Seeds (the holly berry bombs last for 10 minutes / level) Upon seeing monster with no fire resistance: move up, detonate berries as standard action Alternatively (before you have the slots to spare for energy immunity), give the berries to a mobile (and brave) PC with evasion or fire resistance, and detonate the bombs as soon as they get next to the monster.
Japangirl 04-23-07, 01:21 AM	Alternatively (before you have the slots to spare for energy immunity), give the berries to a mobile (and brave) PC with evasion or fire resistance, and detonate the bombs as soon as they get next to the monster. Brave? More like semi-suicidal! Sign my rogue up please, that trick is one I've been aching to use and I just never play with clerics :(.
copper_wyrmling 04-23-07, 01:31 AM	Brave? More like semi-suicidal! Sign my rogue up please, that trick is one I've been aching to use and I just never play with clerics :(. Come play online with me! Yolande needs APL 16 tables! I'll lend you a once/day item of greater invisibility, imbue you with Gravestrikes, and give you holly berry bombs to play with... please? Alternatively, let me know what part of the BK you play in, I really want to take Yolande (fiend-hunting Sacred Exorcist with the Ire of Null, Greater Ire of Iggwilv, Enmity of the Boneshadow and probably some other Iuz-related AR items I've forgotten about) through a BK battle interactive before she retires.
clik_ml 04-23-07, 01:47 AM	I do love holly berry bombs, though isn't energy immunity a bit over the top for protection? I've always had the impression that each berry's damage is resolved separately (yes, that's a lot of saving throws), and thus a simple resist energy[fire] (caster level 11) spell would protect most holly berry bombers. I suppose this may see table variation.
copper_wyrmling 04-23-07, 01:52 AM	I do love holly berry bombs, though isn't energy immunity a bit over the top for protection? I've always had the impression that each berry's damage is resolved separately (yes, that's a lot of saving throws), and thus a simple resist energy[fire] (caster level 11) spell would protect most holly berry bombers. I suppose this may see table variation. You're correct, and there shouldn't be table variation. The reason to use Energy Immunity is that it lasts 24 hours, so you can cast it the night before using an unused slot (I generally leave a couple open so I can call in emergency restorative spells given 15 minutes); if you have a rod of Extend Spell (as my cleric does) it lasts 48 hours. Also, for my cleric, it's just very thematically appropriate for the High Priestess of Joramy to be able to walk through fire and lava unharmed :)
King Kashue 04-23-07, 02:10 AM	Also, for my cleric, it's just very thematically appropriate for the High Priestess of Joramy to be able to walk through fire and lava unharmed :) Well, any FR at all gives you immunity to Lava damage (DMG p. 304), but it's a nifty trick nonetheless... You could always give them to a fully apotheosized Dragon Disciple, or energy substitute to electricity and give them to a 9th level Stormlord (I'll actually have both of those, sooner or later)...
copper_wyrmling 04-23-07, 02:17 AM	Well, any FR at all gives you immunity to Lava damage (DMG p. 304), but it's a nifty trick nonetheless... You could always give them to a fully apotheosized Dragon Disciple, or energy substitute to electricity and give them to a 9th level Stormlord (I'll actually have both of those, sooner or later)... Immersion damage from lava is 20d6 / round (and yes, this has come up... it's amazing how often you run into active volcanic craters as a High Priestess of Joramy). Energy Immunity (Fire) also helps when attacked by crazed sorcerers throwing empowered maximized orbs of fire :P Hopefully, before she retires, she will have the [Fire] subtype (I have the special access, just need the money) :) At that point, I'll switch to casting Extended Energy Immunity (Cold) ;)
King Kashue 04-23-07, 02:41 AM	Immersion damage from lava is 20d6 / round (and yes, this has come up... it's amazing how often you run into active volcanic craters as a High Priestess of Joramy). Not if you have any FR it's not :P Read the DMG, lava effects, page 304. "An immunity or resistance to fire serves as an immunity to lava or magma." This hasn't been errataed, and the language is unambiguous as written. Immunity or resistance to fire = immunity to lava. :D
Zanzibax 04-23-07, 06:14 AM	You're spending 2 (really 3) feats to add 7.5 points of damage per round to one spell... He's not the only one who thinks that's a bad return on investment... I'm sure he's not the only one who feels that is a bad return on investment. Others seem to feel that druids do not make good blasters, and try to turn them into summoners instead.
Evanta 04-23-07, 07:49 AM	Hmm, never noticed Arc Lightning was conjuration.. must have been blind. Anyway, does Cleric have any anti-SR move beyond summoning and buffing? I only see earthquake on the list.. -_-;;
kjenks 04-23-07, 08:37 AM	You may wish to note that Metamagic School Focus: Conjuration (which affects some of the top-tier Druid blasting spells–Cometfall and Arc of Lightning, as well as Fire Seeds) has the same prerequisite as Augmented Summoning. Rapid Summon Nature's Ally is a 'blast' of its own, as well. There's a lot of synergy here for a caster druid that is a hybrid blaster-healer-summoner. You could consider Human 1 Druid: Spell Focus: Conjuration, Metamagic School Focus: Conjuration 2 Druid 3 Druid: Augment Summoning 4 Druid 5 Druid 6 Druid: Rapid Spell or Natural Spell 7 Druid 8 Druid 9 Druid: Empower Spell 10 Druid 11 Druid 12 Druid: Craft Wondrous Item/Spontaneous Healer/Quicken Spell 13 Druid 14 Druid 15 Druid: Craft Wondrous Item/Spontaneous Healer/Quicken Spell Simple and easy. There's not a lot of point in focusing on blasting in the early game, and I disagree with the usefulness of Produce Flame–it's very low damage output and eats up your precious actions for little return. Once you get past the first couple of levels (when summoning, without the Summoner/Good domain combination, is useless) you should have useful options for every spell slot, and being able to throw around reduced-cost Empowered Arc of Lightning/Cometfall is more than enough blasting potential for most situations. Empower Spell can also improve your SNA spells. When you summon multiple lower-level critters, the number of critters is a variable effect that can be increased by Empower Spell.
jstorrie 04-23-07, 10:32 AM	Although generally speaking you'd have other good druid spells to lob, being able to spontaneously drop an Empowered 'Rhino Swarm' is good when you're in a spot with no punch prepped.
jstorrie 04-23-07, 10:36 AM	I'm sure he's not the only one who feels that is a bad return on investment. Others seem to feel that druids do not make good blasters, and try to turn them into summoners instead. What is the effective difference between throwing a Fireball at something and throwing a charging rhinoceros at something? Aesthetically speaking you are blasting, both times. Numerically you are doing similar damage. The only real differences are that your effect stays on the table and that you make an attack roll rather than allow a save–things that you're already taking with Produce Flame, anyway. At some levels, and for some spell slots, the best blasting method for a druid is to throw an animal at something. At other levels and with other spell slots the best blasting method is to throw a blast of lightning or a meteoroid. At only two levels is it very appropriate to be lobbing around Produce Flame. Just because a druid has Augment Summoning doesn't mean she can't cast other powerful offensive conjuration spells that aren't summons.
kjenks 04-23-07, 11:19 AM	Although generally speaking you'd have other good druid spells to lob, being able to spontaneously drop an Empowered 'Rhino Swarm' is good when you're in a spot with no punch prepped. I think of it as the "Wall of Fur" tactic.
Timlagor 04-23-07, 11:36 AM	Then they should panic under most spell conditions and certainly refuse to fight for the druid...for the same reason. ..and that is why we have training including the "attack unnatural creatures" trick. I'm not saying I wouldn't let an AC do this sort of thing but I don't think it's unreasonable to draw the line there ..unless you know of a trick that's relevant?
Zanzibax 04-23-07, 11:38 AM	I think of it as the "Wall of Fur" tactic. I think of it as, "Summoning an Animal". The problems are.... 1) it takes up space best filled by a party's fighter 2) it requires an attack roll against the full AC 3) it is limited to the ground 4) it is limited in movement 5) it can be completely barred from any effect by a 1st level spell. I'm surprised you guys didn't suggest a Sacred Fist or something. *shrug* Looking for a blaster.
Zanzibax 04-23-07, 11:39 AM	..and that is why we have training including the "attack unnatural creatures" trick. I'm not saying I wouldn't let an AC do this sort of thing but I don't think it's unreasonable to draw the line there ..unless you know of a trick that's relevant? In my opinion, if it accepts a Magic Fang, or a Barkskin, it should accept a Produce Fire.
Jay_Ibero_911 04-23-07, 01:09 PM	I think of it as, "Summoning an Animal". The problems are.... 1) it takes up space best filled by a party's fighter 2) it requires an attack roll against the full AC 3) it is limited to the ground 4) it is limited in movement 5) it can be completely barred from any effect by a 1st level spell. I'm surprised you guys didn't suggest a Sacred Fist or something. *shrug* Looking for a blaster. At higher levels, you can summon a handful of arrowhawks. If you max the roll and get 5, that's 5 ranged touch attacks for 2d6 electricity damage every round. Sure they are weak, but as long as you don't keep them clustered the enemy would have to waste actions picking them off individually. And they have perfect flight.
King Kashue 04-23-07, 01:15 PM	5) it can be completely barred from any effect by a 1st level spell. What spell would that be? Protection from Neutrality? If you're referring to Prot Good/Evil/Law/Chaos, you should go and read those spell descriptions again. They only prevent summoned creatures of the particular alignment. Since all animals are neutral, as are elementals, and most of the SNA critters, none of the Prot spells will do anything...
Zanzibax 04-23-07, 01:19 PM	At higher levels, you can summon a handful of arrowhawks. If you max the roll and get 5, that's 5 ranged touch attacks for 2d6 electricity damage every round. Sure they are weak, but as long as you don't keep them clustered the enemy would have to waste actions picking them off individually. And they have perfect flight. Yup...Nature's Summons 4 to get 1...and I *do* count that as a semi-blast
Zanzibax 04-23-07, 03:26 PM	I've played a Fire domain cleric with TWF from L1 to L15 in LG. My experience has been that there's no clear majority ruling either way on making a single attack in the same round that you cast the spell, but no GM has ever allowed my cleric to use Produce Flame with TWF, and it's not because I haven't asked. Ken's experiences have obviously been different - regional variation, I guess, but it might be worth checking with local GMs before you spend a feat on TWF if you're only planning to use it with this spell. Well...let's end that right now: First Produce Flame: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/produceFlame.htm You can strike an opponent with a melee touch attack, dealing fire damage equal to 1d6 +1 point per caster level (maximum +5). Alternatively, you can hurl the flames up to 120 feet as a thrown weapon. When doing so, you attack with a ranged touch attack (with no range penalty) and deal the same damage as with the melee attack I've highlighted the relevant parts of the spell. Next: Touch Spells in Combat: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm Touch Spells in Combat Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll. and finally: Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. There shouldn't be any variation on this spell.
jstorrie 04-23-07, 03:36 PM	A rhino's dealing 4d6+24. +24! That's essentially 12d6 per rhino. Similarly, the 'Arrohawk Swarm' is throwing out 2d6/hawk/round, which adds up very quickly. Even at the low levels a pouncing lion deals competitive damage. Yes, they lose the ability to hit as levels go up, but your low-level blasts get saved against over time, too. Yes, it's a pain to try to fit summoned critters around your BDFs, but it's a pain to fit your Flame Strikes around them too. What matters is that by building around SF: Conjuration you can optimize your summons and your more typical blasts, and use whichever is appropriate for a situation–you have useful blasting options for each spell slot. Only one of the restrictions you listed actually applies to SNA, since you can choose to summon a battlefield-appropriate creature to attack from whichever direction you want and Prot: Alignment doesn't save someone from an Arrowhawk swarm (though Prot: Evil does prevent a Rhino rush.) I'm not sure exactly why you'd only count SNAs as semi-blasts at all, unless all you want is the specific aesthetic of a character throwing energy at people.
jstorrie 04-23-07, 03:37 PM	There is variation on Produce Flame because it is not a touch spell. It does not have Range: Touch, it has Range 0 and Effect: 'Flame in your palm.' It requires touch attacks, yes, but technically to be a 'touch spell' it needs that Range: Touch entry.
Zanzibax 04-23-07, 03:47 PM	There is variation on Produce Flame because it is not a touch spell. It does not have Range: Touch, it has Range 0 and Effect: 'Flame in your palm.' It requires touch attacks, yes, but technically to be a 'touch spell' it needs that Range: Touch entry. The description of the spell is inarguable. The description of the spell explicitly lists touch attacks. The quote describes how these attacks are conducted...cast...and touch in the same round. There should be no variation.
Zanzibax 04-23-07, 03:49 PM	A rhino's dealing 4d6+24. +24! That's essentially 12d6 per rhino. Similarly, the 'Arrohawk Swarm' is throwing out 2d6/hawk/round, which adds up very quickly. Even at the low levels a pouncing lion deals competitive damage. Yes, they lose the ability to hit as levels go up, but your low-level blasts get saved against over time, too. There is no save against Produce Flame...at any level. I can fill higher level spell slots with it...because I'm really quite pleased with the damage output of the spell.
kjenks 04-23-07, 03:51 PM	There should be no variation. But there is.
Zanzibax 04-23-07, 03:52 PM	What spell would that be? Protection from Neutrality? If you're referring to Prot Good/Evil/Law/Chaos, you should go and read those spell descriptions again. They only prevent summoned creatures of the particular alignment. Since all animals are neutral, as are elementals, and most of the SNA critters, none of the Prot spells will do anything... http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionfromEvil.htm Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by summoned creatures. This causes the natural weapon attacks of such creatures to fail and the creatures to recoil if such attacks require touching the warded creature. Good summoned creatures are immune to this effect. The protection against contact by summoned creatures ends if the warded creature makes an attack against or tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature. Spell resistance can allow a creature to overcome this protection and touch the warded creature. Only good summoned creatures are immune to the effect. Neutral critters are hedged out completely.
Zanzibax 04-23-07, 03:53 PM	But there is. *shrug* Then those DMs are flat-out wrong.
jstorrie 04-23-07, 04:01 PM	Neutral critters are hedged out by Pro: Evil, but oddly enough not by any of the other Protections. Pro: Evil is the least often cast by the villains, I find.
kjenks 04-23-07, 04:28 PM	*shrug* Then those DMs are flat-out wrong. This is LG. That happens.
Zanzibax 04-23-07, 04:46 PM	This is LG. That happens. Yup. Kinda sucks to put new DMs through an interview process to find out if they actually know the rules of the game. I've walked away from tables for this reason before...LoL!
jstorrie 04-23-07, 07:19 PM	I think that's a little flippant given that there's reason to interpret the rules in the way you don't. People are volunteering their time for you by DMing your tables, you know. They could be playing at some other slot.
Zanzibax 04-23-07, 07:31 PM	I think that's a little flippant given that there's reason to interpret the rules in the way you don't. People are volunteering their time for you by DMing your tables, you know. They could be playing at some other slot. No, there's no valid reason to interpret that rule *that* way. It's explicitly within the text. If a DM can't read the explicit text, then I need a different DM. There are lots and lots of invalid reasons to come up with any kind of irrational ruling on any given issue...and there a lot of times that people volunteering their time aren't helping anyone or doing anyone any favors. If I walk away from a slot, then I lose that opportunity to game. It never comes back.
jstorrie 04-23-07, 07:46 PM	Yes, there are valid reasons to interpret that rule, and if you'd take the few seconds to flip through your PHB you would find them. Touch spells are specifically referred to as spells with Range: Touch. Produce Flame has Range: 0. Whether or not you or I would rule that Produce Flame is a touch spell, there is a valid reason to rule that is not. This is why you can expect table variation on it. Suggesting that DMs who do not agree with you are incompetent is poor gamesmanship.
Zanzibax 04-23-07, 08:33 PM	Yes, there are valid reasons to interpret that rule, and if you'd take the few seconds to flip through your PHB you would find them. Touch spells are specifically referred to as spells with Range: Touch. Produce Flame has Range: 0. Whether or not you or I would rule that Produce Flame is a touch spell, there is a valid reason to rule that is not. This is why you can expect table variation on it. Suggesting that DMs who do not agree with you are incompetent is poor gamesmanship. Sure, when you read the spell description, it specifically refers to capability of using Produce Fire as a touch spell, both ranged and melee touch. There's no wiggle room there. I can find no logical justification for a different interpretation. I can even tell you why the range is different: The spell does not *have* to be used as an attack spell.
Jay_Ibero_911 04-23-07, 08:44 PM	Sure, when you read the spell description, it specifically refers to capability of using Produce Fire as a touch spell, both ranged and melee touch. There's no wiggle room there. I can find no logical justification for a different interpretation. I can even tell you why the range is different: The spell does not *have* to be used as an attack spell. The highlighted part is where you are making an assumption. The spell description does not say that it is a touch spell, it just says you can use the spell to make touch attacks, but that does not make it a touch spell, the same way that while Whirling Blade may effect an area, it does not have an area entry and is therefore not an area spell. By RAW the definition of a touch spell is a spell with the entry "Range: Touch". Produce Flame does not have such an entry, so it is not a touch spell, despite any similarity in capability. A similar spell is Nimbus of Light, from the SpC. It is a personal range spell that also has the capability to be used for a ranged touch attack, but because it does not specifically the "Range: Touch" entry, it is not a touch spell. Your argument is based soley on what makes sense, and I agree it SHOULD be a touch spell, but by RAW it is not.
copper_wyrmling 04-23-07, 08:53 PM	Sure, when you read the spell description, it specifically refers to capability of using Produce Fire as a touch spell, both ranged and melee touch. There's no wiggle room there. I can find no logical justification for a different interpretation. I can even tell you why the range is different: The spell does not *have* to be used as an attack spell. Produce Flame is not a range: touch spell. It is a Range: 0ft, Effect spell which creates a "flame in your palm". The paragraph you quoted regarding casting a spell and delivering it in the same round begins with "Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells..." - thus, it does not apply to spells without a range of touch (although GMs may use it as a precedent for resolving how other spells that allow you to make touch attacks work). Not sure if you're also arguing that TWF should work, but the argument against that is that the effect is a "flame in your palm", and "no sooner do you hurl the flames than a new set appears in your hand". Both "palm" and "hand" are singular in these quotes: there's nothing to suggest you should get a flame in each hand. Incidentally, I wouldn't allow sharing of Produce Flame on my table - it doesn't have target: You and it's not a spell you're casting on yourself (it's a spell you're casting that causes a flame to appear in your hand: it's no more cast on you than Greater Fireburst is). To try to make the first point clear, imagine a new spell: Instant Acid Range: 0ft Effect: Flask of acid in your hand Duration: 1 round / level A magical flask of acid appears in your hand. You can hurl the flask up to 120ft as a thrown weapon. When doing so, you attack with a ranged touch attack, as usual for thrown acid. After throwing the flask, it reappears in your hand. Could you cast this spell and throw the flask in the same round? I certainly don't think a GM who says "no" is breaking the rules...
dark_poet 04-23-07, 09:09 PM	Hmmm...so Flame Blade and Scimitar of Sand would also become touch spells? Hmmm...and that means my wizard can Spectral Hand a Scimitar of Sand/Flame Blade? Hmmm... If Scimitar of Sand/Flame Blade is a touch spell, that means I can deliever it thru my familiar. Interesting. Also, touch spells are considered to have 'charges'. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. (If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack.) If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges.If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge. So that means I can use an unarmed attack and deal additional damage equal to the Flame Blade/SoS. Brilliant. Ultimately, quoting the chuck you quoted: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll. You are right. There should be no table variation ;) :P Jokes aside: Doing the maths, I find Produce Flame only useful at higher levels if, like Ken, your DM allows TWF to apply. That is a 1 feat for 1 attack trade. If not 3 feats are better spent on metamagiced blasts. Although one thing to note is the Produce Flame benefits from haste which is always good as your party would prob have it up. I don't think anyone is saying Druids arn't good blasters. Just at higher levels Produce Flame isn't ideal (assuming that your judges do no allow TWF). It still works...but not all well as out and out blasting. Produce Flame at APL 4 still works IMO. Especially against those high AC low touch AC opponents.
jstorrie 04-23-07, 11:21 PM	Are these posters inept, Zanzibax? Are they unable to read the explicit rules of the game? Because I think they're making valid arguments here.
magebeast 04-24-07, 01:45 AM	Are these posters inept, Zanzibax? Are they unable to read the explicit rules of the game? Because I think they're making valid arguments here. But they don't agree with him! Stupid jerks! Let's hope he doesn't walk away from us in disgust!
Lupo 04-24-07, 03:33 AM	Hmmm...so Flame Blade and Scimitar of Sand would also become touch spells? Hmmm...and that means my wizard can Spectral Hand a Scimitar of Sand/Flame Blade? Hmmm... If Scimitar of Sand/Flame Blade is a touch spell, that means I can deliever it thru my familiar. Interesting. Also, touch spells are considered to have 'charges'. So that means I can use an unarmed attack and deal additional damage equal to the Flame Blade/SoS. Brilliant. Ultimately, quoting the chuck you quoted: You are right. There should be no table variation ;) :P Jokes aside: Doing the maths, I find Produce Flame only useful at higher levels if, like Ken, your DM allows TWF to apply. That is a 1 feat for 1 attack trade. If not 3 feats are better spent on metamagiced blasts. Although one thing to note is the Produce Flame benefits from haste which is always good as your party would prob have it up. I don't think anyone is saying Druids arn't good blasters. Just at higher levels Produce Flame isn't ideal (assuming that your judges do no allow TWF). It still works...but not all well as out and out blasting. Produce Flame at APL 4 still works IMO. Especially against those high AC low touch AC opponents. produce flame is a nice "side spell", one can cast it BEFORE combat and hold it till needed - and it makes you armed in melee all the time ;), it is usefull against flying critters and high AC thingies, with transdimensional spell it becomes really useful as some incorporeal creatures are not HP heavy (and druids have few options to deal with incorporeals), with energy substitution [acid] it might damage most critters, with empower spell the overall damage is 12 hp/lvl (8 HP without) and being "ranged touch", means mostly ALL attacks will hit. (good if you happen to find some metamagic rod with said feats) and being a first level spell makes it castable all day long with some PoP 1st (at least nearly) ;) basically it does something like the reserve feats do: a cheap, usefull, moderate to low damage dealing utility tool :cool: ciao martin m.
Zanzibax 04-24-07, 08:05 AM	The highlighted part is where you are making an assumption. The spell description does not say that it is a touch spell, it just says you can use the spell to make touch attacks, but that does not make it a touch spell, the same way that while Whirling Blade may effect an area, it does not have an area entry and is therefore not an area spell. I disagree. A Whirling Blade has the same effect as a Wall of Fire spell. Without the option to change it as listed in the Wall of Fire. However, the spell "Produce Flame" has a pretty explicit description.
Zanzibax 04-24-07, 08:30 AM	Hmmm...so Flame Blade and Scimitar of Sand would also become touch spells? Hmmm...and that means my wizard can Spectral Hand a Scimitar of Sand/Flame Blade? Hmmm... If Scimitar of Sand/Flame Blade is a touch spell, that means I can deliever it thru my familiar. Interesting. Also, touch spells are considered to have 'charges'. So that means I can use an unarmed attack and deal additional damage equal to the Flame Blade/SoS. Brilliant. I don't see a problem with it, is there some errata or LG official ruling that states otherwise? If so, it would equally apply to Produce Flame. Granted, while an animal companion or familiar what shares a produce flame spell can attack normally, and therefore, in my opinion doesn't run into the "But it has an INT of 2" problem...those spells require a bit more intelligence to use properly.
dark_poet 04-25-07, 06:53 AM	I notice you left out the second quote. Regardless, the posts have served it purpose. Which was not to convince you but to have you to support absurd arguments in front of everyone else :P
Zanzibax 04-25-07, 09:04 AM	I notice you left out the second quote. Regardless, the posts have served it purpose. Which was not to convince you but to have you to support absurd arguments in front of everyone else :P Just stating that it is absurd doesn't make it so. If you have a valid argument, let's hear it. I simply haven't seen a valid argument concerning the issue as of yet. Your unarmed attack didn't make much sense to me, if that's your issue, do clarify.
Zanzibax 04-25-07, 09:07 AM	I notice you left out the second quote. From the SRD: A 3-foot-long, blazing beam of red-hot fire springs forth from your hand. You wield this bladelike beam as if it were a scimitar. Of course I left out the second quote, I was being polite.
dark_poet 04-25-07, 10:28 PM	Err...no I meant the second quote as in this: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll. Specifically this: Many spells have a range of touch. Everything after that applies to spells that have a range of touch...not 0ft. They are not the same thing. This is basically the definition of a touch spell. The unarmed strike thing (which your ironically agreed to without understanding what it was about), is about the fact that touch spell as considered to have a charge. Based on: If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the discharge of the spell (hold the charge) indefinitely. When you have a charge and you make a normal unarmed attack: Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. (If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack.) If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges.If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge. So if Scimitar of Sand and Flame Blade (and Produce Flame) are touch spells, I can cast chose to make an unarmed attack and deal my unarmed damage (which includes Strength) as well as have the spells effects apply. And since these spells are based on duration I can keep doing it until the duration ends. All this is from the page you linked to: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm If you want more proof of what is a touch spell from: Touch You must touch a creature or object to affect it. A touch spell that deals damage can score a critical hit just as a weapon can. A touch spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit. Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets. You can touch as many willing targets as you can reach as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell. If you want produce flame to be a touch spell...ok let's give it to you. But in which case you can't use it to touch after the first round :P And if you want to consider it a ranged touch attack ala Orb of Force. Orb of Force has a range of close. Produce Flame has a range of 0ft. And: If any portion of the spell’s area would extend beyond this range, that area is wasted. So you won't even be able to attack as the spell area and effect would no longer be creating a flame (after which the hurling is not affected by the spell effect and are) in your hand but hurling the flame (when the hurling needs to abide by the rules of spell area). All of that was from http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#range As much as I would further enjoy proving my point, I find it quite pointless ( yeah that was bad I know :P). I suggest you just take the issue to cust serv if you want clarification since you a naturally gonna meet alot of DMs who won't let you interpretation pass at their tables.
Zanzibax 04-26-07, 02:34 PM	Ok...I guess you've proven the point.
lseelba 05-30-07, 01:47 PM	Well...let's end that right now: First Produce Flame: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/produceFlame.htm I've highlighted the relevant parts of the spell. Next: Touch Spells in Combat: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm and finally: [/b] There shouldn't be any variation on this spell. You completely left out the relevant parts: Touch Spells in Combat Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll. Produce Flame Evocation [Fire] Level: Drd 1, Fire 2 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: 0 ft. Effect: Flame in your palm Duration: 1 min./level (D) Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: Yes Flames as bright as a torch appear in your open hand. The flames harm neither you nor your equipment. In addition to providing illumination, the flames can be hurled or used to touch enemies. You can strike an opponent with a melee touch attack, dealing fire damage equal to 1d6 +1 point per caster level (maximum +5). Alternatively, you can hurl the flames up to 120 feet as a thrown weapon. When doing so, you attack with a ranged touch attack (with no range penalty) and deal the same damage as with the melee attack. No sooner do you hurl the flames than a new set appears in your hand. Each attack you make reduces the remaining duration by 1 minute. If an attack reduces the remaining duration to 0 minutes or less, the spell ends after the attack resolves. This spell does not function underwater. Hi. I'm Produce Flame. I have a range of 0. I am not a touch spell. Therefore I cannot be used in the same round that I am cast in. Furthermore, I produce a single flame in a single hand. I can be used for iterative attacks with one hand, but I can't be used in both hands unless you cast me twice. Finally, I don't have a target and I am an evocation spell. Therefore I don't duplicate myself via the Animal Companion's Share Spells ability. This would be like casting Flame Blade and expecting a second Flame Blade to apper for the Animal Companion. So in conclusion, to use the flame strike effectively as you seem to want to do, it requires two rounds to prepare, then in the third round you can 'blast' with your Two Weapon Fighting feat.
Zanzibax 05-30-07, 02:13 PM	You completely left out the relevant parts: I also admitted I was wrong. Would you like to help with the Cleric/Druid Blaster build? I still think it puts out a lot more damage than people give him credit for...
lseelba 05-30-07, 02:14 PM	You may wish to note that Metamagic School Focus: Conjuration (which affects some of the top-tier Druid blasting spells–Cometfall and Arc of Lightning, as well as Fire Seeds) has the same prerequisite as Augmented Summoning. Rapid Summon Nature's Ally is a 'blast' of its own, as well. There's a lot of synergy here for a caster druid that is a hybrid blaster-healer-summoner. You could consider Human 1 Druid: Spell Focus: Conjuration, Metamagic School Focus: Conjuration 2 Druid 3 Druid: Augment Summoning 4 Druid 5 Druid 6 Druid: Rapid Spell or Natural Spell 7 Druid 8 Druid 9 Druid: Empower Spell 10 Druid 11 Druid 12 Druid: Craft Wondrous Item/Spontaneous Healer/Quicken Spell 13 Druid 14 Druid 15 Druid: Craft Wondrous Item/Spontaneous Healer/Quicken Spell Simple and easy. There's not a lot of point in focusing on blasting in the early game, and I disagree with the usefulness of Produce Flame–it's very low damage output and eats up your precious actions for little return. Once you get past the first couple of levels (when summoning, without the Summoner/Good domain combination, is useless) you should have useful options for every spell slot, and being able to throw around reduced-cost Empowered Arc of Lightning/Cometfall is more than enough blasting potential for most situations. I like your build but I am slightly confused about feat placement. What is the point of Metamagic School Focus: Conjuration when you don't have a metamagic feat to use until level 6 or 9? Would this feat progression be better? 1: Spell Focus: Conjuration, Augment Summoning 3: Rapid Spell 6: Natural Spell or Metamagic School Focus: Conjuration 9: Empower Spell I don't know something like that...I'm trying to plan out my low level druid now.
Zanzibax 05-30-07, 02:14 PM	So in conclusion, to use the flame strike effectively as you seem to want to do, it requires two rounds to prepare, then in the third round you can 'blast' with your Two Weapon Fighting feat. It appears in whichever hand you prefer the moment it's used, so I don't see the need for a second casting...but it would be handy if it were allowed. (Pardon the pun.)
jstorrie 05-30-07, 05:49 PM	I like your build but I am slightly confused about feat placement. What is the point of Metamagic School Focus: Conjuration when you don't have a metamagic feat to use until level 6 or 9? Would this feat progression be better? 1: Spell Focus: Conjuration, Augment Summoning 3: Rapid Spell 6: Natural Spell or Metamagic School Focus: Conjuration 9: Empower Spell I don't know something like that...I'm trying to plan out my low level druid now. Either way you set it up, the metamagic feats in the low-level will be a wash. You can take Rapid Spell at 3, but will you use it at all? Likewise, Augment Summoning is not very useful before APL4 or so, because the duration of your summons is so low. With retraining, now, I actually think I'd take something general–Improved Initiative, a save-booster, Quick Reconnoiter, Imp Toughness, whatever–and retrain it into Metamagic School Focus at 6 when you take Rapid Spell.
kjenks 05-30-07, 05:59 PM	Hi. I'm Produce Flame. I have a range of 0. I am not a touch spell. Therefore I cannot be used in the same round that I am cast in. Although I agree with your chain of reasoning, the spell description does not specify whether or not the ball of flame can be used in the same round that the spell is cast. So what actually happens is table variation: some DMs allow it, some don't. As long as you're willing to tolerate that kind of table variation, you're fine. Furthermore, I produce a single flame in a single hand. I can be used for iterative attacks with one hand, but I can't be used in both hands unless you cast me twice. Again, the spell description does not specify whether or not the ball of flame can be appear in just the hand used to cast the spell or in your off-hand or whatever. And again, there's table variation. Finally, I don't have a target and I am an evocation spell. Therefore I don't duplicate myself via the Animal Companion's Share Spells ability. This would be like casting Flame Blade and expecting a second Flame Blade to apper for the Animal Companion. The Share Spells ability description does not limit you to sharing targeted spells nor does it restrict you from sharing evocation spells. And again, there's table variation. So in conclusion, to use the flame strike effectively as you seem to want to do, it requires two rounds to prepare, then in the third round you can 'blast' with your Two Weapon Fighting feat. So, in conclusion, sometimes I find myself at tables where this tactic doesn't work as well and other times, especially when I can share the Produce Flame spell with my dire bat animal companion and it can hurl its own balls of flame, the tactic works very well indeed. Some people find this kind of table variation objectionable. I find it an unavoidable part of using a vaguely-worded spell, and I simply work within the DM's interpretation of the vague rules. Here are the questions I ask and the table variations I have found so far: (1) Can I throw the ball of flame in the same round that I cast the Produce Flame spell? a: Yes b: No (2) Can I share Produce Flame with my dire bat animal companion? If so, where does the ball of flame appear? a: Yes, but it scares the bejeebers out of the animal so it's not useful. b: Yes, and the ball of flame appears in the dire bat's mouth. He can make bite attacks against the opponent's normal AC, and if he hits, the flame damage is added to the bite damage. c: Yes, and the ball of flame appears in the dire bat's mouth. He can choose either to make normal bite attacks against the opponent's normal AC with no extra damage or he can choose to make touch attacks with the ball of flame. d: Yes, and the ball of flame appears in the dire bat's claws (since he doesn't have hands). He can make melee touch attacks or he can make ranged touch attacks. e: No (3) Can I make the ball of flame appear in my off-hand? a: Yes (Nobody has yet said no to that question, but I ask anyway.) Since I find all of these to be acceptable situations, I don't mind the table variation.
bitznarf 05-30-07, 06:05 PM	Holy Threadomancy batman!
Zanzibax 05-30-07, 06:53 PM	Holy Threadomancy batman! I din't do it