Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ThaiGQ 07-03-07, 01:59 PM	Hey all...I know I've posted a few builds on here, but a lot of them have been shot down due to my being a bit clueless about the rules, so I haven't actually started a new character yet. I've been wanting to make a spell caster, but I've never actually played one and I'm afraid I might be overwhelmed by the vast list of available spells to use, so I figured I'd go in baby steps and try out a gish first :D (I'm assuming they're more about self-buffing and utility than anything else). Anyhow, here's the build I came up with: Gray Elf Str: 12, Dex: 14, Con: 12, Int: 16, Wis: 14, Cha: 8 1: Ftr1 - Weapon Finesse, WF(Rapier)* 2: Wiz1 3: Wiz2 - Practiced Spell Caster 4: Wiz3 - Stat Bump to Str (to qualify for Power Attack) 5: Wiz4 6: Wiz5 - Arcane Disciple(Destiny), CWI** 7: Wiz6 8: Sps1 - Stat Bump to Wis 9: ElK1 - Arcane Strike, Power Attack*** 10: ElK2 11: ElK3 12: ElK4 - Quicken Spell, Stat Bump to Wis *Fighter Bonus Feat **Wizard Bonus Feat ***Eldritch Knight Bonus Feat I put two Stat Bumps into Wis because I'll need it to cast spells from Arcane Disciple (IIRC) and I figured that with only a 12 Con, I'd need the amulet slot for an Amulet of Health. I could use some help with the feats as I'm not sure what to take at 1st level and whether or not I'd need Practiced Spell Caster. I want to take Arcane Disciple(Destiny) because that gives access to Delay Death and Warp Destiny which I think would really help keep the character alive. Unfortunately, like I said, I've never really played a spell caster before, so any advice you could give me would be much appreciated. I haven't started the character yet, so it's all still pretty open.
Lupo 07-03-07, 02:41 PM	Hey all...I know I've posted a few builds on here, but a lot of them have been shot down due to my being a bit clueless about the rules, so I haven't actually started a new character yet. I've been wanting to make a spell caster, but I've never actually played one and I'm afraid I might be overwhelmed by the vast list of available spells to use, so I figured I'd go in baby steps and try out a gish first :D (I'm assuming they're more about self-buffing and utility than anything else). Anyhow, here's the build I came up with: Gray Elf Str: 12, Dex: 14, Con: 12, Int: 16, Wis: 14, Cha: 8 1: Ftr1 - Weapon Finesse, WF(Rapier)* 2: Wiz1 3: Wiz2 - Practiced Spell Caster 4: Wiz3 - Stat Bump to Str (to qualify for Power Attack) 5: Wiz4 6: Wiz5 - Arcane Disciple(Destiny), CWI** 7: Wiz6 8: Sps1 - Stat Bump to Wis 9: ElK1 - Arcane Strike, Power Attack*** 10: ElK2 11: ElK3 12: ElK4 - Quicken Spell, Stat Bump to Wis *Fighter Bonus Feat **Wizard Bonus Feat ***Eldritch Knight Bonus Feat I put two Stat Bumps into Wis because I'll need it to cast spells from Arcane Disciple (IIRC) and I figured that with only a 12 Con, I'd need the amulet slot for an Amulet of Health. I could use some help with the feats as I'm not sure what to take at 1st level and whether or not I'd need Practiced Spell Caster. I want to take Arcane Disciple(Destiny) because that gives access to Delay Death and Warp Destiny which I think would really help keep the character alive. Unfortunately, like I said, I've never really played a spell caster before, so any advice you could give me would be much appreciated. I haven't started the character yet, so it's all still pretty open. if you fear to be lost in the vast number of spells just play a sorcerer - and there is a thread somewhere on this board and as well at the lg-character board dealing with good spell selections and builds for sorcerers. for your gish build - if you really want to stick to it - don't take "practiced spellcaster", you only get TWO caster levels out of it, not enough to waste a feat on it. just take power attack earlier, that will serve you much better. to intense self-buffing is often the gate to ineffective characters. a player i play with from time to time has a gish who insists on spending at least two rounds with buffing before entering combat, guess how unhappy the faces at the table are when he announces that the gish will participate in an adventure :( gish builds CAN be very effective but i wouldn't build one as my first arcane caster ;) ciao martin m.
Nutation 07-03-07, 03:00 PM	I wouldn't start with a gish either. A gish is using the synergy between two classes to make a low-hit point fighter into something scary. And a sorcerer should settle on his list of spells known from the beginning. The easiest caster to learn is actually a wizard. Start with just the spells you are famiiar with, and add more to your spellbook when you figure out how to use them. Make the character a generalist. You're never locked into any decisions, and you never have more choices than you select for yourself.
ThaiGQ 07-04-07, 12:34 PM	Grrr!!!! Yet another idea for a character shot down! :tantrum: Thanks for the help again guys...I guess I'll have to go back to the drawing board to make an arcane or divine caster... :banghead: I know I've seen it on the forums a few times...but I guess the Mystic Theurge is a bad idea (at least for LG)? I really like the idea of being able to cast divine and arcane spells...but I guess I should put that off until I learn how to play both first... :plotting:
Lupo 07-04-07, 01:12 PM	Grrr!!!! Yet another idea for a character shot down! :tantrum: Thanks for the help again guys...I guess I'll have to go back to the drawing board to make an arcane or divine caster... :banghead: I know I've seen it on the forums a few times...but I guess the Mystic Theurge is a bad idea (at least for LG)? I really like the idea of being able to cast divine and arcane spells...but I guess I should put that off until I learn how to play both first... :plotting: mystic theurge basically gets the two spell lists and NO GODDIES. arcane hierophant can be good, as he gets two spell lists AND the GOODIES from two different classes (basically the build is wiz 3, druid 5 (4 if you don't care to argue about wildshape), arcane hierophant 1, beast master 1, arcane hierophant for the rest and access to "natural bond" - then your animal companion/familiar chimera tends to rip things to pieces and make the DM hit his head on the table in despair), double spell list casters are on par with single spell list casters at level 1, somehow in front at level 2 to 4 and behind the single caster from level 5 till the rest of the normal LG career. more low level spells do most often not make up for a few high level spells. the APL system of LG and structure of LG modules make it especially hard for ANY crossbreeds. the quote of one of my fellow players "only two more levels and my build of combining classes x, y and z will be really powerful" is the trigger of a shiny booby trap. the moment his character is there, the APL he HAS TO PLAY has increased as well and he is behind any iconic or straight character again. ciao martin m.
JamesMaissen 07-04-07, 02:11 PM	Thanks for the help again guys...I guess I'll have to go back to the drawing board to make an arcane or divine caster... First, always play what you want to play. However, if you are starting out and don't wish to be overwhelmed or perhaps regret not having a less than optimal character in the long run, then it is best to start slow. Regardless, you are doing the right thing in planning out a character from the start. The worst thing that you can do is not have a plan for your character... even if that plan changes more often than the wind. All things being equal I would suggest a straight cleric. They are perfectly viable and even without PrCs or optimal feat choices they can work out as a solid contribution to the table. I would avoid a sorcerer as while you will only need to really learn the spells you know.. you will also have to choose those spells and then be mostly locked into those choices from then on. Read through the deity's document and see if the description of one of them appeals to you... -James
Sir_Wulf 07-04-07, 04:10 PM	Don't let people discourage you from doing what you want to do. There is no one perfect character for everyone. >>>> ...I've been wanting to make a spell caster, but I've never actually played one and I'm afraid I might be overwhelmed by the vast list of available spells to use, so I figured I'd go in baby steps and try out a gish first :D (I'm assuming they're more about self-buffing and utility than anything else). >>>> In my experience, Gish serve two purposes: They fight, generally pouring out a lot of damage, and they act as a support caster. Most gish builds don't produce high save DCs on their spells, so they tend to use magic that doesn't need a saving throw to have some effect whenever possible. For instance, my 11th level spellsword cast the following spells in the last game: Web, Evard's Black Tentacles, Detect Magic, Prestidigitation, Haste, Enlarge Person, and Mirror Image. He seldom has time to cast so many buffs, but the party had a sorcerer as the main mage. I "burned" my Greater Fireburst, Dimension Door, Fireball, and some second-level spells to pump up my Arcane Strikes. Looking at your build, I would pass on the Arcane Disciple plan. It may be useful, but you are trying to do too much with your limited resources. Unless you're dead set on playing an elf, I would take a human instead. I would build my stats as follows: Str: 14, Dex: 14, Con: 14, Int: 16, Wis: 8, Cha: 8 As a Gish, you'll need to be able to step up into battle, so you'll need all the Con and Strength you can spare. Still, try not to be the first to engage. You're going to be fragile. Use your spells and missile weapons until you have enough spells to start pouring in Power-Attacking Arcane Strikes. One of the most "broken" gishes that I know is a chain fighter: Those strikes are his bread and butter.
amnuxoll 07-04-07, 10:24 PM	Grrr!!!! Yet another idea for a character shot down! :tantrum: Not so. You should have noticed that you're getting fairly minimal criticism for the build because, frankly, it's a good build. I'm sure MWaO can twink it into absurd optimality but what you have here is solid. So, I would say that if you're willing to tackle the steep learning curve associated with a gish that you should go for it. :AMN:
Morgen 07-04-07, 11:01 PM	This build can work just fine. It'd depend on your spell selection. Look for spells without somatic components, that way you don't have to worry about your arcane spell failure and can continue to wonder around in a tin can. As it's been said, remember to keep your effectiveness in combat too, don't waste too much time buffing up.
clannagh 07-05-07, 12:27 AM	The problem is gishes heirophants etc really seriously come into there own at levels they cannot reach in LG . The arcane heirophant sucks from level 3 to around 9 or 10 gets better and really kicks at levels 18 -20 where it usually is taking straight Eldritch knight, but in LG you retire at 15. As for the original build consider snow elf and try to get ruathan access so you can PrC out of wizzie as early as possible. Virtually any PrC is better than straight wizard.
Hariman 07-05-07, 01:45 AM	Keep in mind that with a Gish, you're trading off lower level power for a later gain. The lower levels will be tougher, especially when you switch from your chosen melee class to your casting class. It's a very difficult road, and you need to alter your character's strategy as different APLs come and go. At low levels, you'll be more of a support role, as your build's full power likely won't kick in until around level eight or nine. (4th level spells.) After level 7 or 8, you'll be able to start going into melee with your gish. this will be the point when you can use higher level spells to protect yourself or attack the enemy. Beyond level 10, you'll likely have hit your stride and will be in melee with the best of them. You'll have to figure out how to survive those lower levels to reach those higher levels. I recommend this thread http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=773577 as a reference. Although you shouldn't consider it the be all end all of gich threads. That's this thread: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=606371 Read through parts 1, 2, 3 and 4 of the second linked thread. Those are your main considerations and worries with playing a gish. Also, keep in mind that the second thread ISN'T a Living Greyhawk thread. So you'll have to use the builds there as guidelines since many of the included gish builds there aren't LG legal.
TWG_Prometheus 07-05-07, 11:15 AM	Gray Elf Str: 12, Dex: 14, Con: 12, Int: 16, Wis: 14, Cha: 8 1: Ftr1 - Weapon Finesse, WF(Rapier)* 2: Wiz1 3: Wiz2 - Practiced Spell Caster 4: Wiz3 - Stat Bump to Str (to qualify for Power Attack) 5: Wiz4 6: Wiz5 - Arcane Disciple(Destiny), CWI** 7: Wiz6 8: Sps1 - Stat Bump to Wis 9: ElK1 - Arcane Strike, Power Attack*** 10: ElK2 11: ElK3 12: ElK4 - Quicken Spell, Stat Bump to Wis *Fighter Bonus Feat **Wizard Bonus Feat ***Eldritch Knight Bonus Feat First, you stated in your original post that you wanted to make a Gish as a baby-step into full spellcasting. I wouldn't do that. If you want to try out spellcasting, make either a battle cleric or just go full Wizard and take the plunge. The first few levels are bad for any spellcaster really due to lower spells/day, but delaying the better spells isn't going to help. I don't think you should let yourself be dissuaded from making a Gish if that's what you actually want to do, however. They are a little weak in the early levels, but not so badly that you're ineffective. For instance, the original build you put down is only 1 step short of a full Wizard until level 9. That's not bad. I made a Pal2/Sor4 gish as my first LG character, and they're nearing level 10. The character was a little weak at times, but almost always useful. (With the Pal/Sor build and an investment in a Vest of Resistance, my saving throws are phenomenal) That weak period is probably over now that I have Arcane Strike. Analyzing the actual build, I think that Grey Elf is a mistake for this guy. A 16 Intelligence is nice, but you're gimping your strength for it unnecessarily. High intelligence scores and Grey Elves generally are for full Intelligence casters, not for Gishes who will rarely pick spells that force a saving throw anyway. (Note: This depends on the spells you intend to cast, but generally you won't need more than 14 base Int on a Gish unless you intend to force lots of saving throws.) Recommendation: Grey Elf to High Elf -> 14 Str & 14 Int. Next, I'm not sure that Arcane Disciple is a great way to go for this character. Gishes are traditionally stretched on stat points, and you're spending a feat + 4-6 build points on that one trick. You may also be underestimating the durability of a Gish. As soon as you hit level 4, you'll have access to both False Life and Blur if you want them. That's a major survivability boost in and of itself. At 6th level, you can get Vampiric Touch and use the temporary hp to soak damage if needed. You can use the Shield spell even if you're fighting two-handed for an AC boost (your AC will probably still hover around 20 for a long time but that's OK.) One other thing people miss about gishes is that they don't have to be survivable for very long. Most of their strength in melee later on comes from Arcane Strike. It's effective but very bursty and not sustainable. Unlike other melee fighters, a Gish has great options for backing out of a fight after they use their burst tricks to take up a midfield or backfield position. Recommendation: Reduce Wis from 14 to 10. Use build points to boost Dex to 17 (8 build points for 15 + 2 racial). Replace Weapon Focus(Rapier) with EWP(Elven Courtblade) or Improved Weapon Familiarity and Practised Spellcaster with Weapon Focus(Greatsword) to work with your Courtblade. Replace Arcane Disciple with Practised Spellcaster (or other feat - by then you'll know better if you really want it). I'd like to move Power Attack to an earlier position in the build, but you need a fighter bonus feat for that slot. High Elf Str 14 / Dex 17 / Con 12 / Int 14 / Wis 10 / Cha 8 1st: Weapon Finesse & EWP(Elven Courtblade) 3rd: Weapon Focus(Greatsword) 4th: Dex 18 6th: Practised Spellcaster or Improved Toughness & Craft Wondrous Item 8th: Dex 19 9th: Arcane Strike & Power Attack 12th: Quicken Spell & Dex 20 Important spells for the build: Mage Armor until you get Spellsword 1 Shield - note that you can generally spend the time (at lower APLs) to cast either Shield or Mage Armor before engaging *at most* but not both. False Life and/or Mirror Image Heroism - you'll be badly in need of the +hit and saves by that time - unless you travel regularly with a Bard Alternate Option: Make an Archer Gish. The 12 Con hurts less and it goes very well thematically with the archery/magic theme of the elves. With an appropriate build, you'll only ever be 2 levels behind a full Wizard in casting power and you'll have buff-boosted archery to fall back on against weak opponents or those with obnoxiously high spell resistance.
ThaiGQ 07-06-07, 02:06 AM	First, you stated in your original post that you wanted to make a Gish as a baby-step into full spellcasting. I wouldn't do that. If you want to try out spellcasting, make either a battle cleric or just go full Wizard and take the plunge. The first few levels are bad for any spellcaster really due to lower spells/day, but delaying the better spells isn't going to help. I don't think you should let yourself be dissuaded from making a Gish if that's what you actually want to do, however. They are a little weak in the early levels, but not so badly that you're ineffective. For instance, the original build you put down is only 1 step short of a full Wizard until level 9. That's not bad. I made a Pal2/Sor4 gish as my first LG character, and they're nearing level 10. The character was a little weak at times, but almost always useful. (With the Pal/Sor build and an investment in a Vest of Resistance, my saving throws are phenomenal) That weak period is probably over now that I have Arcane Strike. Analyzing the actual build, I think that Grey Elf is a mistake for this guy. A 16 Intelligence is nice, but you're gimping your strength for it unnecessarily. High intelligence scores and Grey Elves generally are for full Intelligence casters, not for Gishes who will rarely pick spells that force a saving throw anyway. (Note: This depends on the spells you intend to cast, but generally you won't need more than 14 base Int on a Gish unless you intend to force lots of saving throws.) Recommendation: Grey Elf to High Elf -> 14 Str & 14 Int. Next, I'm not sure that Arcane Disciple is a great way to go for this character. Gishes are traditionally stretched on stat points, and you're spending a feat + 4-6 build points on that one trick. You may also be underestimating the durability of a Gish. As soon as you hit level 4, you'll have access to both False Life and Blur if you want them. That's a major survivability boost in and of itself. At 6th level, you can get Vampiric Touch and use the temporary hp to soak damage if needed. You can use the Shield spell even if you're fighting two-handed for an AC boost (your AC will probably still hover around 20 for a long time but that's OK.) One other thing people miss about gishes is that they don't have to be survivable for very long. Most of their strength in melee later on comes from Arcane Strike. It's effective but very bursty and not sustainable. Unlike other melee fighters, a Gish has great options for backing out of a fight after they use their burst tricks to take up a midfield or backfield position. Recommendation: Reduce Wis from 14 to 10. Use build points to boost Dex to 17 (8 build points for 15 + 2 racial). Replace Weapon Focus(Rapier) with EWP(Elven Courtblade) or Improved Weapon Familiarity and Practised Spellcaster with Weapon Focus(Greatsword) to work with your Courtblade. Replace Arcane Disciple with Practised Spellcaster (or other feat - by then you'll know better if you really want it). I'd like to move Power Attack to an earlier position in the build, but you need a fighter bonus feat for that slot. High Elf Str 14 / Dex 17 / Con 12 / Int 14 / Wis 10 / Cha 8 1st: Weapon Finesse & EWP(Elven Courtblade) 3rd: Weapon Focus(Greatsword) 4th: Dex 18 6th: Practised Spellcaster or Improved Toughness & Craft Wondrous Item 8th: Dex 19 9th: Arcane Strike & Power Attack 12th: Quicken Spell & Dex 20 Important spells for the build: Mage Armor until you get Spellsword 1 Shield - note that you can generally spend the time (at lower APLs) to cast either Shield or Mage Armor before engaging *at most* but not both. False Life and/or Mirror Image Heroism - you'll be badly in need of the +hit and saves by that time - unless you travel regularly with a Bard Alternate Option: Make an Archer Gish. The 12 Con hurts less and it goes very well thematically with the archery/magic theme of the elves. With an appropriate build, you'll only ever be 2 levels behind a full Wizard in casting power and you'll have buff-boosted archery to fall back on against weak opponents or those with obnoxiously high spell resistance. I've also got access to Snow Elf, which I'll probably take for the race (a friend of mine is building a Snow Elven Arcane Archer, and I thought siblings with one being a melee gish and another a ranged gish would be cool). But with this build, how do I gain the necessary Int to use higher level spells? Use the headband slot to boost Int for the spells? How about going Diviner and dropping the Enchantment school (suggestions?) and taking Metamagic School Focus at 6th level for the Quickened Truestrikes? (I'm assuming this is the bread and butter of the build with Power Attack, but if Arcane Strike deals more damage, please let me know!) Or what about CMA&A, would it be worth it? Also, why take the Elven Courtblade? Any particular reason it's better than a rapier? Note: I haven't decided to build a gish over a straight divine or arcane caster yet, but I'm still exploring the idea...
Hariman 07-06-07, 06:47 AM	But with this build, how do I gain the necessary Int to use higher level spells? Use the headband slot to boost Int for the spells? How about going Diviner and dropping the Enchantment school (suggestions?) and taking Metamagic School Focus at 6th level for the Quickened Truestrikes? (I'm assuming this is the bread and butter of the build with Power Attack, but if Arcane Strike deals more damage, please let me know!) Or what about CMA&A, would it be worth it? Also, why take the Elven Courtblade? Any particular reason it's better than a rapier? Note: I haven't decided to build a gish over a straight divine or arcane caster yet, but I'm still exploring the idea... Starting with int 14 or 15 means that all stat bumps will go into INT, ending with int 17 or 18 at 12th level. More than enough for the spells you'll have access to. And yes, a +2 headband will probably be a worthwhile investment. Arcane Strike has the added benefit of increasing both attack bonus AND damage done. True Strike has the flaw of only increasing your attack bonus. Not to mention that Quickening True Strikes (Even with MMSF) requires 4th level spells, which you likely won't get till level 8 or 9. The elven courtblade is good because it is Finessable AND Two Handed, meaning that you can crank up your DEX for a high attack bonus, have better AC, AND get the most out of power attack. Craft Magic Arms and Armor could be worth it. Especially at the higher levels when upgrading your primary weapon costs 10,000+gp. It's just that you have to figure out when to take it.
TWG_Prometheus 07-06-07, 10:32 AM	I've also got access to Snow Elf, which I'll probably take for the race (a friend of mine is building a Snow Elven Arcane Archer, and I thought siblings with one being a melee gish and another a ranged gish would be cool). But with this build, how do I gain the necessary Int to use higher level spells? Use the headband slot to boost Int for the spells? How about going Diviner and dropping the Enchantment school (suggestions?) and taking Metamagic School Focus at 6th level for the Quickened Truestrikes? (I'm assuming this is the bread and butter of the build with Power Attack, but if Arcane Strike deals more damage, please let me know!) Or what about CMA&A, would it be worth it? Also, why take the Elven Courtblade? Any particular reason it's better than a rapier? Note: I haven't decided to build a gish over a straight divine or arcane caster yet, but I'm still exploring the idea... In regard to the Int for spells: The main thing you'll want here is to make sure that you can cast your highest level spells. Since you're taking Craft Wondrous Item, I'm assuming that you'll get a Headband of Intellect +4 at least. That will give you an 18 Intelligence, which is plenty for your needs. Generally I'd expect this character to avoid forcing saving throws from the enemy, which means the only advantage of pushing Int higher would be skill points and 1-2 spell slots per 2 Intelligence, which is a bad cost/benefit ratio for them. A 14 base Int is fine. In regard to Diviner with Enchantment prohibited, it's mostly fine. Spells you might miss if you drop Enchantment: Touch of Idiocy at 2nd, Heroism at 3rd, and Crushing Despair at 4th. Heroism is the most important of those three, as it will boost attack rolls and saving throws, areas that gishes traditionally find important. Its 10 minutes/level duration makes it more valuable than most shorter duration buffs as well---especially if you try to play ADP mods with them, since those tend toward protracted battles and little rest. If you don't think you'd mind losing those spells, however, Diviner is a good choice. Rapier = 1d6 finessable one-handed weapon with 18-20 threat range, piercing damage. Elven Courtblade = 1d10 finessable two-handed weapon with 18-20 threat range, piercing and slashing damage.
Hariman 07-06-07, 08:11 PM	In regard to the Int for spells: The main thing you'll want here is to make sure that you can cast your highest level spells. Since you're taking Craft Wondrous Item, I'm assuming that you'll get a Headband of Intellect +4 at least. That will give you an 18 Intelligence, which is plenty for your needs. Generally I'd expect this character to avoid forcing saving throws from the enemy, which means the only advantage of pushing Int higher would be skill points and 1-2 spell slots per 2 Intelligence, which is a bad cost/benefit ratio for them. A 14 base Int is fine. In regard to Diviner with Enchantment prohibited, it's mostly fine. Spells you might miss if you drop Enchantment: Touch of Idiocy at 2nd, Heroism at 3rd, and Crushing Despair at 4th. Heroism is the most important of those three, as it will boost attack rolls and saving throws, areas that gishes traditionally find important. Its 10 minutes/level duration makes it more valuable than most shorter duration buffs as well---especially if you try to play ADP mods with them, since those tend toward protracted battles and little rest. If you don't think you'd mind losing those spells, however, Diviner is a good choice. Rapier = 1d6 finessable one-handed weapon with 18-20 threat range, piercing damage. Elven Courtblade = 1d10 finessable two-handed weapon with 18-20 threat range, piercing and slashing damage. Darn, maybe my rogue/conjurer should have banned evocation and taken enchantment instead. A small note on a Courtblade, it's Piercing OR Slashing, so you do have to choose damage type. But it's a relatively small issue. It's actually slightly better than a bastard sword because it's finessable and offers two different damage types. On top of that, it's compatible with Exotic Weapon Master's Uncanny Blow AND scales to 2d8 base damage with Enlarge Person. I think my Swashbuckler is going to get retrained out of being a TWFing Shield Basher to having a courtblade now. Or maybe Thinblade.