Help with very first character [Archive] - Wizards Community

Help with very first character [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kimokeo
10-02-06, 05:22 PM I'm a veteran of D&D but this will be a first in joining a RPGA game at a convention.

Of the talk of builds, is the starting level 1st always or does it vary which would allow an actual build to be applied and started?

I am prepping a Dwarf with one level in Horizon Walker (Dungeons).
*120' infravision.
My feats would be Still Spell and Silent Spell and to use gaseous form and attack in that form when necessary. DR10/magic.

The higher the character's level can be, the two choices I'd consider are a straight wizard or a mystic theurge, combining divine and arcane while in gaseous form.

Can I start at any age? The reason is older people have increased Intelligence and Wisdom.

Can I own something that doesn't exist in the PHB. I'm looking for a block of either wood, metal, or stone. Preferably 5' to 8' cubic. Swiss Cheese. In this block is where my gaseous form would hide. Shrink Item would make this portable hiding spot possible.

How does LG view gaseous form's attack spells using Silent Spell and Still Spell? Touch spells wouldn't work, unless perhaps I was using a Spectral Hand.
paigeoliver
10-02-06, 05:30 PM All characters start at first level.

You can start your character at any age, but Living Greyhawk does not use aging adjustments to ability scores.

I don't think there is any general consensus on the gaseous form thing. I have been in about 120 games as a player and 30 or so as a gamemaster and I have never seen a single person use gaseous form.

If you want to carry around a hunk of wood you can buy firewood from the players handbook.
kenobi65
10-02-06, 05:48 PM Of the talk of builds, is the starting level 1st always or does it vary which would allow an actual build to be applied and started?

As paige notes, all LG characters have to start at 1st level -- if you haven't already done so, you really should download a copy of the Living Greyhawk Campaign Standards (LGCS) document before you go any further on developing a character, as that document will help you understand what is and isn't legal in the campaign.

The reason you see all these threads on builds is that many players like to plan out their character builds in advance, so that they're not regretting decisions made at lower levels, later on.
solbergb
10-02-06, 07:15 PM IIRC, I've seen two folks use gaseous form. Both times linked with the "Contingency" spell (the first guy didn't want to be grappled and was too low level for a L4 contingency, the second guy didn't want to be grappled or bull rushed. The second had a nasty high level spell combo involving a prismatic wall and many things that push enemies through it, so he wanted a defense against someone tryint to hoist him by his own petard)

Regarding stuff that isn't in the PHB, the "trade goods" section in the PHB has a number of materials (and animals etc) that can be bought by weight.

If you want an item that isn't an undifferentiated lump though, you need to craft it during play, and that usually means the fabricate spell, or at least stone shape/wood shape, etc to do it instantly.

Now then....regarding your proposed character....I need to not sugar coat this.

Combining gaseous form with mystic theurge is a really bad idea, because a theurge is already 3 levels behind the curve with his ordinary spells...putting him effectively 7 levels behind the curve with silent/still means you're operating at the same level as a familiar does, while taking up a 10th level slot in the party.

Do develop this thought a bit more...

In general, the split class casters are hard to play in Living Greyhawk. Here are the usual challenges you'll be facing:

Playing "down" (you are ~2 levels higher than party average) ECL +0-1
Playing "at APL" (you're at about the party average) ECL+2-3
Playing "up" (you are ~2 levels lower than party average) ECL +4-5

If you can't contribute when playing up, it limits the opportunities for play (or worse, you play and either die or feel useless, which sucks). If you aren't at the expected power level of an "iconic" character (ie, the PHB example guys, like Tordek and Jozan), you will feel like you are playing up when only playing average, and feel like playing average only when you play down. You never get to feel like the "strong guy". That also sucks, but not as much as not being able to contribute at all.

Now consider a mystic theurge. At level 6, he's casting level 2 spells. When he plays down, he's about what you expect for a APL4 table. When playing at APL, though, he's not bringing the expected level of power. Instead he's providing more options, but weaker options. A decent player can make this work and still contribute well to the party. When playing up....his peers are casting 4th level spells, while he's dinking around with level 2 spells. It takes exceptional tactical vision to make a full contribution when you've tied both hands behind your back like that. Some can do it. Most though, tend to just not play up with their theurges.

What you propose with a single-class wizard is kind of like being a theurge. Wanting to be in gaseous form all the time, you not only are down 2 spell levels on most spells, but you're unable to communicate (barring an audible illusion, telepathy or similar stuff) and you're vulnerable to lots of stuff that nobody is used to defending against. Plus you've stripped yourself of equipment, kind of like Vow of Poverty without any actual benefits. You COULD probably make it work, if you are very good at getting the most out of the advantages and picking spells and actions that leverage the party strengths. Even an above average player though, is going to struggle with this build a lot of the time.

Doing both theurge and gaseous form is pretty much - too weak to matter. No amount of player skill is going to make casting a very small number of level 1 spells at APL8 worthwhile. There isn't anything wrong with gaseous form as an occasional thing....generally a scouting trick, combined with invisibility and maybe some sensory stuff like arcane sight or see invisible. But it isn't where you want to be while in combat.

An much easier way to make a shapeshifting tank would be master of many forms, or even straight druid or bear warrior. You can't do the gaseous stuff, but you'll be a lot tougher, and contribute a lot more offensively.

A dwarf horizon walker is also just fine. Nothing fancy, but capable of contributing at least the normal amount to the party.
Iswald
10-02-06, 10:55 PM A dwarf horizon walker is also just fine. Nothing fancy, but capable of contributing at least the normal amount to the party.

But, you probably wouldn't want to tack a level of horizon walker onto a spellcaster (if I understand the OP correctly).
Rerednaw
10-04-06, 01:23 PM I'm a veteran of D&D but this will be a first in joining a RPGA game at a convention.

Of the talk of builds, is the starting level 1st always or does it vary which would allow an actual build to be applied and started?

I am prepping a Dwarf with one level in Horizon Walker (Dungeons).
...

First welcome! I've only been in RPGA myself for a few months. And yes, everyone starts at first level. (I've heard of other RPGA that will have higher power options and starting levels above first. Living Greyhawk though is limited to first level. )

The LGCS everyone is referring to can be found

here on the wizards site (http://www.wizards.com/rpga/downloads/LGCS_596.zip)

It has updates for the current year. You can also buy the Living Greyhawk book separately, but I have not needed it so far.

Details about Living Greyhawk can be found
here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=lg/welcome)

But the basic basics:
28 point buy.
You can only use the PHB races and classes (a few exceptions which are listed in your Meta-Region and in the LGCS).

Nothing non-core (spells, feats, classes, etc.) until level 3 and even then the list is limited.

Maximum starting gold, only allowed to purchase from equipment lists in the PHB. No magic items at start. (Well maybe an everburning torch if you think it's worth it.)

Some non-PHB options:

Warmage
Marshall
Hexblade
Scout
Swashbuckler
Favored Soul

Gray Elf
Wood Elf
Mountain Dwarf
Tallfellow Halfling
Deep (Stout) Halfling

Have fun!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kimokeo 10-02-06, 05:22 PM	I'm a veteran of D&D but this will be a first in joining a RPGA game at a convention. Of the talk of builds, is the starting level 1st always or does it vary which would allow an actual build to be applied and started? I am prepping a Dwarf with one level in Horizon Walker (Dungeons). *120' infravision. My feats would be Still Spell and Silent Spell and to use gaseous form and attack in that form when necessary. DR10/magic. The higher the character's level can be, the two choices I'd consider are a straight wizard or a mystic theurge, combining divine and arcane while in gaseous form. Can I start at any age? The reason is older people have increased Intelligence and Wisdom. Can I own something that doesn't exist in the PHB. I'm looking for a block of either wood, metal, or stone. Preferably 5' to 8' cubic. Swiss Cheese. In this block is where my gaseous form would hide. Shrink Item would make this portable hiding spot possible. How does LG view gaseous form's attack spells using Silent Spell and Still Spell? Touch spells wouldn't work, unless perhaps I was using a Spectral Hand.
paigeoliver 10-02-06, 05:30 PM	All characters start at first level. You can start your character at any age, but Living Greyhawk does not use aging adjustments to ability scores. I don't think there is any general consensus on the gaseous form thing. I have been in about 120 games as a player and 30 or so as a gamemaster and I have never seen a single person use gaseous form. If you want to carry around a hunk of wood you can buy firewood from the players handbook.
kenobi65 10-02-06, 05:48 PM	Of the talk of builds, is the starting level 1st always or does it vary which would allow an actual build to be applied and started? As paige notes, all LG characters have to start at 1st level -- if you haven't already done so, you really should download a copy of the Living Greyhawk Campaign Standards (LGCS) document before you go any further on developing a character, as that document will help you understand what is and isn't legal in the campaign. The reason you see all these threads on builds is that many players like to plan out their character builds in advance, so that they're not regretting decisions made at lower levels, later on.
solbergb 10-02-06, 07:15 PM	IIRC, I've seen two folks use gaseous form. Both times linked with the "Contingency" spell (the first guy didn't want to be grappled and was too low level for a L4 contingency, the second guy didn't want to be grappled or bull rushed. The second had a nasty high level spell combo involving a prismatic wall and many things that push enemies through it, so he wanted a defense against someone tryint to hoist him by his own petard) Regarding stuff that isn't in the PHB, the "trade goods" section in the PHB has a number of materials (and animals etc) that can be bought by weight. If you want an item that isn't an undifferentiated lump though, you need to craft it during play, and that usually means the fabricate spell, or at least stone shape/wood shape, etc to do it instantly. Now then....regarding your proposed character....I need to not sugar coat this. Combining gaseous form with mystic theurge is a really bad idea, because a theurge is already 3 levels behind the curve with his ordinary spells...putting him effectively 7 levels behind the curve with silent/still means you're operating at the same level as a familiar does, while taking up a 10th level slot in the party. Do develop this thought a bit more... In general, the split class casters are hard to play in Living Greyhawk. Here are the usual challenges you'll be facing: Playing "down" (you are ~2 levels higher than party average) ECL +0-1 Playing "at APL" (you're at about the party average) ECL+2-3 Playing "up" (you are ~2 levels lower than party average) ECL +4-5 If you can't contribute when playing up, it limits the opportunities for play (or worse, you play and either die or feel useless, which sucks). If you aren't at the expected power level of an "iconic" character (ie, the PHB example guys, like Tordek and Jozan), you will feel like you are playing up when only playing average, and feel like playing average only when you play down. You never get to feel like the "strong guy". That also sucks, but not as much as not being able to contribute at all. Now consider a mystic theurge. At level 6, he's casting level 2 spells. When he plays down, he's about what you expect for a APL4 table. When playing at APL, though, he's not bringing the expected level of power. Instead he's providing more options, but weaker options. A decent player can make this work and still contribute well to the party. When playing up....his peers are casting 4th level spells, while he's dinking around with level 2 spells. It takes exceptional tactical vision to make a full contribution when you've tied both hands behind your back like that. Some can do it. Most though, tend to just not play up with their theurges. What you propose with a single-class wizard is kind of like being a theurge. Wanting to be in gaseous form all the time, you not only are down 2 spell levels on most spells, but you're unable to communicate (barring an audible illusion, telepathy or similar stuff) and you're vulnerable to lots of stuff that nobody is used to defending against. Plus you've stripped yourself of equipment, kind of like Vow of Poverty without any actual benefits. You COULD probably make it work, if you are very good at getting the most out of the advantages and picking spells and actions that leverage the party strengths. Even an above average player though, is going to struggle with this build a lot of the time. Doing both theurge and gaseous form is pretty much - too weak to matter. No amount of player skill is going to make casting a very small number of level 1 spells at APL8 worthwhile. There isn't anything wrong with gaseous form as an occasional thing....generally a scouting trick, combined with invisibility and maybe some sensory stuff like arcane sight or see invisible. But it isn't where you want to be while in combat. An much easier way to make a shapeshifting tank would be master of many forms, or even straight druid or bear warrior. You can't do the gaseous stuff, but you'll be a lot tougher, and contribute a lot more offensively. A dwarf horizon walker is also just fine. Nothing fancy, but capable of contributing at least the normal amount to the party.
Iswald 10-02-06, 10:55 PM	A dwarf horizon walker is also just fine. Nothing fancy, but capable of contributing at least the normal amount to the party. But, you probably wouldn't want to tack a level of horizon walker onto a spellcaster (if I understand the OP correctly).
Rerednaw 10-04-06, 01:23 PM	I'm a veteran of D&D but this will be a first in joining a RPGA game at a convention. Of the talk of builds, is the starting level 1st always or does it vary which would allow an actual build to be applied and started? I am prepping a Dwarf with one level in Horizon Walker (Dungeons). ... First welcome! I've only been in RPGA myself for a few months. And yes, everyone starts at first level. (I've heard of other RPGA that will have higher power options and starting levels above first. Living Greyhawk though is limited to first level. ) The LGCS everyone is referring to can be found here on the wizards site (http://www.wizards.com/rpga/downloads/LGCS_596.zip) It has updates for the current year. You can also buy the Living Greyhawk book separately, but I have not needed it so far. Details about Living Greyhawk can be found here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=lg/welcome) But the basic basics: 28 point buy. You can only use the PHB races and classes (a few exceptions which are listed in your Meta-Region and in the LGCS). Nothing non-core (spells, feats, classes, etc.) until level 3 and even then the list is limited. Maximum starting gold, only allowed to purchase from equipment lists in the PHB. No magic items at start. (Well maybe an everburning torch if you think it's worth it.) Some non-PHB options: Warmage Marshall Hexblade Scout Swashbuckler Favored Soul Gray Elf Wood Elf Mountain Dwarf Tallfellow Halfling Deep (Stout) Halfling Have fun!