Hexblade + Improved Familiar [Archive] - Wizards Community

Hexblade + Improved Familiar [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
budleiser
01-05-07, 07:18 PM Hexblade + Improved Familiar

At level 4 Hex gains the feat "Summon Familiar"

The prerequisites for Improved Familiar are long including pg100 CW
"Ability to acquire new familiar, alignment, caster level, base attack bonus"

Pg 8 CW "Through 3rd level a hexblade has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, his caster level is one-half his Hexblade level."

In order to qualify for Krenshar Familiar Arcane Caster Level is listed as 3.

All of this means Hexblade would have to be level 6 to take and use the feat improved familiar? And when determining the Familiars bonuses such as speak with master, the hexblade would still be at 1/2 hexblade level.

And wont qualify for Hippogriff until Level 14.

Level 4 and up, what Prestige Classes will Hexblade qualify for?
Mommy was an Orc
01-05-07, 07:44 PM All of this means Hexblade would have to be level 6 to take and use the feat improved familiar? And when determining the Familiars bonuses such as speak with master, the hexblade would still be at 1/2 hexblade level.

And wont qualify for Hippogriff until Level 14.

Level 4 and up, what Prestige Classes will Hexblade qualify for?

One thing you can do is get Practiced Spellcaster...
budleiser
01-05-07, 08:29 PM One thing you can do is get Practiced Spellcaster...

That would work. The prerequisites are 4 ranks in spellcraft. Can I take this feat Level 1?

Can I take improved Familiar Level 3 Hexblade, or would I have to wait until Level 6 (The prequisite "can acquire new familiar" comes to mind)
jstorrie
01-05-07, 08:39 PM Expect table variation on whether or not you can take Practiced Spellcaster for classes like Hexblade, Ranger, or Paladin that have no caster level until level four. I believe that you should be able to take the feat (because Hexblade is 'a spellcasting class'), but it just does nothing from levels 1-3 (as you have no caster level to modify).

Hexblade familiars are a bit stronger than you might think, as although the Hexblade's caster level is halved, the familiar's BAB and hit dice are full and d10, respectively. But I wouldn't spend the character's whole career taking feats tailored for that hippogriff. You need to optimize for APL 4-10, too.
kegdrainer
01-05-07, 08:50 PM That would work. The prerequisites are 4 ranks in spellcraft. Can I take this feat Level 1?

Bud, PS is in CA, therefore it can only be taken at 3rd level or higher.
budleiser
01-05-07, 08:52 PM Expect table variation on whether or not you can take Practiced Spellcaster for classes like Hexblade, Ranger, or Paladin that have no caster level until level four.

The prerequisites list Spellcraft 4 and don't mention caster level or spellcasting. However the benefit section says "Your caster level for the chosen spellcasting class increases by 4" Later it does give ranger as an example not even mentioning what level the ranger is. Very lousy wording (as usual for D&D).

I believe that you should be able to take the feat (because Hexblade is 'a spellcasting class'), but it just does nothing from levels 1-3 (as you have no caster level to modify).

I agree and that would work for what I want.

Hexblade familiars are a bit stronger than you might think, as although the Hexblade's caster level is halved, the familiar's BAB and hit dice are full and d10, respectively.

Right, but there are no medium sized familiars without taking improved familiar feat.

But I wouldn't spend the character's whole career taking feats tailored for that hippogriff. You need to optimize for APL 4-10, too.

Hexblade is broken APL4-10 are you kidding? (Im kidding! :P ) What I have in mind will work and be effective. LG mods are too easy anyway (150+ replies and counting on that thread topic)

I just have to make sure the legality of the feats and when I can take them will pass judge and jury inspection. Ahhh the great D&D, a wargame for lawyers disguising it as "roleplaying".
budleiser
01-05-07, 08:57 PM Bud, PS is in CA, therefore it can only be taken at 3rd level or higher.

Can I take Improved Familiar at Hex1 (CW and DMG)

Then take Practiced Spellcaster (CA) at Hex3

So I can get a decent familiar at Hex4!?
jstorrie
01-05-07, 09:16 PM At character level 1 you are restricted to feats from the PHB and certain regional feats from Dragon 315/319. You'd have to take Practised Spellcaster at 3 and Imp Familiar at 6 - take Power Attack and something else at first, I guess.
kegdrainer
01-05-07, 09:22 PM Can I take Improved Familiar at Hex1 (CW and DMG)

Then take Practiced Spellcaster (CA) at Hex3

So I can get a decent familiar at Hex4!?

Remember, if it's in a splat book or races, it is not available until 3rd (Warmage/Draconic feats excepted from CA).

Answering your question, Nope, since a hexblade does not get a familiar until 4th, it can not take that feat until after 4th level, since the requirement is to have the ability to acquire a familiar.

As for trying to boost it using PS, I would rule against it as a DM. If you had taken levels in another class (like fighter) it would help for those levels and only those levels. Example, if you took Hex 4/Ftr4 (or whatever), you could use it and have a CL of 6. (only CL4 for the hex 8)

As for interacting with the familiar, you would need input from someone else. I am not about to spend 100 gp for something that can cause me to lose 100 or 200 xp a level and not be able to summon a new one for a year and a day. Not worth it.

OK, now, what are you really trying to do there Bud?
budleiser
01-05-07, 09:31 PM At character level 1 you are restricted to feats from the PHB and certain regional feats from Dragon 315/319. You'd have to take Practised Spellcaster at 3 and Imp Familiar at 6 - take Power Attack and something else at first, I guess.

Bah. I just can't make the character work before level 6. In which case practiced spell caster is not necessary unless you wan't Hippogriff sooner.
budleiser
01-05-07, 09:37 PM Remember, if it's in a splat book or races, it is not available until 3rd (Warmage/Draconic feats excepted from CA).

Answering your question, Nope, since a hexblade does not get a familiar until 4th, it can not take that feat until after 4th level, since the requirement is to have the ability to acquire a familiar.

I kept thinking that myself.

As for trying to boost it using PS, I would rule against it as a DM. If you had taken levels in another class (like fighter) it would help for those levels and only those levels. Example, if you took Hex 4/Ftr4 (or whatever), you could use it and have a CL of 6. (only CL4 for the hex 8)

???

As for interacting with the familiar, you would need input from someone else. I am not about to spend 100 gp for something that can cause me to lose 100 or 200 xp a level and not be able to summon a new one for a year and a day. Not worth it.

OK, now, what are you really trying to do there Bud?

Are you kidding? Losing XP is great! Well worth the 100gp investment. I CAN do what I want to do. It's just 2 levels slower than I wanted it to. Which is making it lose it's appeal.
kegdrainer
01-05-07, 10:19 PM ???

Checking the FAQ, they both say that the bonus is applied to be the most beneifical as possible.

However. that is strange:confused: , since the feat is used for the Wild Mage PC and boosts the CL, then I guess it can be used for the same class. I have seen it appilied to multiclass characters. (MT comes to mind) and not the same class.

I will have to disagree with the ruling on PS and Wild mage. I feel that it should be applied to other classes, like the example they use for the Cleric/Wizard and not the same one. (If they had used a hexblade or other class that gets spells at a later levels, then it might have cleared things up.)

I guess if it causes your CL to get reduced, then PS is allowed. But, since the normal CL for the Hexblade is 1/2 CL at 4+, I would say no, unless something causes you to reduce your normal CL for the class, like taking other classes.

Something to look into. You might need more info from someone that plays a hexblade. Try the Character Optimization board to see what they think.

(Makes me wonder how many pure Rangers and Paladins have taken the feat and how it has been treated.)
budleiser
01-05-07, 10:29 PM Checking the FAQ, they both say that the bonus is applied to be the most beneifical as possible.

However. that is strange:confused: , since the feat is used for the Wild Mage PC and boosts the CL, then I guess it can be used for the same class. I have seen it appilied to multiclass characters. (MT comes to mind) and not the same class.

I will have to disagree with the ruling on PS and Wild mage. I feel that it should be applied to other classes, like the example they use for the Cleric/Wizard and not the same one. (If they had used a hexblade or other class that gets spells at a later levels, then it might have cleared things up.)

I guess if it causes your CL to get reduced, then PS is allowed. But, since the normal CL for the Hexblade is 1/2 CL at 4+, I would say no, unless something causes you to reduce your normal CL for the class, like taking other classes.

Something to look into. You might need more info from someone that plays a hexblade. Try the Character Optimization board to see what they think.

(Makes me wonder how many pure Rangers and Paladins have taken the feat and how it has been treated.)

I think your dead wrong on this one. (Please don't hit me) I think this AND multiclassing is exactly they made it. They already gave an example of ranger. Its not a question IF its beneficial and works from everyone elses take. Its a question on WHEN can you take it.

Your CL would be 1/2Hex+4 straight up. So if your Hex4 it would be 2+4. Hex6 3+4.

It doesn't give you more spells, new spells, or anything else. And most spells DC are 10 + Spell Level + Stat modifier. So increasing CL doesn't help with most spell DC's.

Now I'm not perfect I could be wrong.

It doesn't really matter here though. It would if I could improved familiar at Hex1.
kegdrainer
01-05-07, 10:53 PM As Jstorrie says, "Expect table variation"

Until I see more info (like in the FAQ), thats the way I look at it. However, since I tend to run the low level stuff, it is not likely going to be a problem. Take a look to see what you can find.

For the moment, I will go with PS only working in those cases when the CL is reduced by an outside source (like Wild Magic, other classes) and not due to the class itself. (Ranger, Paladin, Hexblade.) If there is an outside source that reduces the CL, it will be applied as benefical as possible.
jstorrie
01-05-07, 11:29 PM You're adding rules complexity where it isn't, kegdrainer. If your caster level is lower than your character level, Practised Spellcaster works.
UMiskatonic
01-05-07, 11:51 PM Well, I've seen rangers take practiced spellcaster, and add 4 to their caster level, I don't see why it wouldn't work for a hexblade. Arguing over intent is a waste of time. If it says 'add up to +4 to your caster level, then that's what it does.' 2 + 4 = 6, last I checked.

Since you'll have to take Practiced Spellcaster and Improved Familiar at 3 and 6, you might as well take 1 and your human/fighter feats on things like mounted combat and power attack.

At APLs 2 and 4, a heavy warhorse with barding is a very respectable battle platform. At higher levels, not so much, but you'll have the familiar by then. It's not as if the choice is special familiar or walk. It's normal mount, or cooler mount.

I think you could be a very respectable cavalryman with this build. I might lead with hex 4/ftr 2 to get a fort save and two more feats.
Iswald
01-06-07, 02:59 AM If you intend to multiclass at some point, consider taking obtain familiar. With obtain familiar, a third level hexblade is treated as a third level sorcerer with respect to his familiar. Normally, a fourth level hexblade is only treated as a first level sorcerer. Hex 3/fighter 2/arcane x/EK y so that you can fit in enough feats for both a good familiar/mount and the feats to make use of it in combat.
ranagrande
01-06-07, 05:28 AM Also note that the earliest you can get a hippogriff is level 8, since it requires a base attack bonus of +7.
haferka
01-06-07, 05:39 PM There is a feat.. i think in complete mage (which might be showing up in the lgcs).. which lets you count all levels of an arcane class towards your familiar abilities...

not sure how this would interact with an arcane class that already grants a limited form of this.. but... i would expect to at least count your full Hexblade level towards your CL for improved familiar.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
budleiser 01-05-07, 07:18 PM	Hexblade + Improved Familiar At level 4 Hex gains the feat "Summon Familiar" The prerequisites for Improved Familiar are long including pg100 CW "Ability to acquire new familiar, alignment, caster level, base attack bonus" Pg 8 CW "Through 3rd level a hexblade has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, his caster level is one-half his Hexblade level." In order to qualify for Krenshar Familiar Arcane Caster Level is listed as 3. All of this means Hexblade would have to be level 6 to take and use the feat improved familiar? And when determining the Familiars bonuses such as speak with master, the hexblade would still be at 1/2 hexblade level. And wont qualify for Hippogriff until Level 14. Level 4 and up, what Prestige Classes will Hexblade qualify for?
Mommy was an Orc 01-05-07, 07:44 PM	All of this means Hexblade would have to be level 6 to take and use the feat improved familiar? And when determining the Familiars bonuses such as speak with master, the hexblade would still be at 1/2 hexblade level. And wont qualify for Hippogriff until Level 14. Level 4 and up, what Prestige Classes will Hexblade qualify for? One thing you can do is get Practiced Spellcaster...
budleiser 01-05-07, 08:29 PM	One thing you can do is get Practiced Spellcaster... That would work. The prerequisites are 4 ranks in spellcraft. Can I take this feat Level 1? Can I take improved Familiar Level 3 Hexblade, or would I have to wait until Level 6 (The prequisite "can acquire new familiar" comes to mind)
jstorrie 01-05-07, 08:39 PM	Expect table variation on whether or not you can take Practiced Spellcaster for classes like Hexblade, Ranger, or Paladin that have no caster level until level four. I believe that you should be able to take the feat (because Hexblade is 'a spellcasting class'), but it just does nothing from levels 1-3 (as you have no caster level to modify). Hexblade familiars are a bit stronger than you might think, as although the Hexblade's caster level is halved, the familiar's BAB and hit dice are full and d10, respectively. But I wouldn't spend the character's whole career taking feats tailored for that hippogriff. You need to optimize for APL 4-10, too.
kegdrainer 01-05-07, 08:50 PM	That would work. The prerequisites are 4 ranks in spellcraft. Can I take this feat Level 1? Bud, PS is in CA, therefore it can only be taken at 3rd level or higher.
budleiser 01-05-07, 08:52 PM	Expect table variation on whether or not you can take Practiced Spellcaster for classes like Hexblade, Ranger, or Paladin that have no caster level until level four. The prerequisites list Spellcraft 4 and don't mention caster level or spellcasting. However the benefit section says "Your caster level for the chosen spellcasting class increases by 4" Later it does give ranger as an example not even mentioning what level the ranger is. Very lousy wording (as usual for D&D). I believe that you should be able to take the feat (because Hexblade is 'a spellcasting class'), but it just does nothing from levels 1-3 (as you have no caster level to modify). I agree and that would work for what I want. Hexblade familiars are a bit stronger than you might think, as although the Hexblade's caster level is halved, the familiar's BAB and hit dice are full and d10, respectively. Right, but there are no medium sized familiars without taking improved familiar feat. But I wouldn't spend the character's whole career taking feats tailored for that hippogriff. You need to optimize for APL 4-10, too. Hexblade is broken APL4-10 are you kidding? (Im kidding! :P ) What I have in mind will work and be effective. LG mods are too easy anyway (150+ replies and counting on that thread topic) I just have to make sure the legality of the feats and when I can take them will pass judge and jury inspection. Ahhh the great D&D, a wargame for lawyers disguising it as "roleplaying".
budleiser 01-05-07, 08:57 PM	Bud, PS is in CA, therefore it can only be taken at 3rd level or higher. Can I take Improved Familiar at Hex1 (CW and DMG) Then take Practiced Spellcaster (CA) at Hex3 So I can get a decent familiar at Hex4!?
jstorrie 01-05-07, 09:16 PM	At character level 1 you are restricted to feats from the PHB and certain regional feats from Dragon 315/319. You'd have to take Practised Spellcaster at 3 and Imp Familiar at 6 - take Power Attack and something else at first, I guess.
kegdrainer 01-05-07, 09:22 PM	Can I take Improved Familiar at Hex1 (CW and DMG) Then take Practiced Spellcaster (CA) at Hex3 So I can get a decent familiar at Hex4!? Remember, if it's in a splat book or races, it is not available until 3rd (Warmage/Draconic feats excepted from CA). Answering your question, Nope, since a hexblade does not get a familiar until 4th, it can not take that feat until after 4th level, since the requirement is to have the ability to acquire a familiar. As for trying to boost it using PS, I would rule against it as a DM. If you had taken levels in another class (like fighter) it would help for those levels and only those levels. Example, if you took Hex 4/Ftr4 (or whatever), you could use it and have a CL of 6. (only CL4 for the hex 8) As for interacting with the familiar, you would need input from someone else. I am not about to spend 100 gp for something that can cause me to lose 100 or 200 xp a level and not be able to summon a new one for a year and a day. Not worth it. OK, now, what are you really trying to do there Bud?
budleiser 01-05-07, 09:31 PM	At character level 1 you are restricted to feats from the PHB and certain regional feats from Dragon 315/319. You'd have to take Practised Spellcaster at 3 and Imp Familiar at 6 - take Power Attack and something else at first, I guess. Bah. I just can't make the character work before level 6. In which case practiced spell caster is not necessary unless you wan't Hippogriff sooner.
budleiser 01-05-07, 09:37 PM	Remember, if it's in a splat book or races, it is not available until 3rd (Warmage/Draconic feats excepted from CA). Answering your question, Nope, since a hexblade does not get a familiar until 4th, it can not take that feat until after 4th level, since the requirement is to have the ability to acquire a familiar. I kept thinking that myself. As for trying to boost it using PS, I would rule against it as a DM. If you had taken levels in another class (like fighter) it would help for those levels and only those levels. Example, if you took Hex 4/Ftr4 (or whatever), you could use it and have a CL of 6. (only CL4 for the hex 8) ??? As for interacting with the familiar, you would need input from someone else. I am not about to spend 100 gp for something that can cause me to lose 100 or 200 xp a level and not be able to summon a new one for a year and a day. Not worth it. OK, now, what are you really trying to do there Bud? Are you kidding? Losing XP is great! Well worth the 100gp investment. I CAN do what I want to do. It's just 2 levels slower than I wanted it to. Which is making it lose it's appeal.
kegdrainer 01-05-07, 10:19 PM	??? Checking the FAQ, they both say that the bonus is applied to be the most beneifical as possible. However. that is strange:confused: , since the feat is used for the Wild Mage PC and boosts the CL, then I guess it can be used for the same class. I have seen it appilied to multiclass characters. (MT comes to mind) and not the same class. I will have to disagree with the ruling on PS and Wild mage. I feel that it should be applied to other classes, like the example they use for the Cleric/Wizard and not the same one. (If they had used a hexblade or other class that gets spells at a later levels, then it might have cleared things up.) I guess if it causes your CL to get reduced, then PS is allowed. But, since the normal CL for the Hexblade is 1/2 CL at 4+, I would say no, unless something causes you to reduce your normal CL for the class, like taking other classes. Something to look into. You might need more info from someone that plays a hexblade. Try the Character Optimization board to see what they think. (Makes me wonder how many pure Rangers and Paladins have taken the feat and how it has been treated.)
budleiser 01-05-07, 10:29 PM	Checking the FAQ, they both say that the bonus is applied to be the most beneifical as possible. However. that is strange:confused: , since the feat is used for the Wild Mage PC and boosts the CL, then I guess it can be used for the same class. I have seen it appilied to multiclass characters. (MT comes to mind) and not the same class. I will have to disagree with the ruling on PS and Wild mage. I feel that it should be applied to other classes, like the example they use for the Cleric/Wizard and not the same one. (If they had used a hexblade or other class that gets spells at a later levels, then it might have cleared things up.) I guess if it causes your CL to get reduced, then PS is allowed. But, since the normal CL for the Hexblade is 1/2 CL at 4+, I would say no, unless something causes you to reduce your normal CL for the class, like taking other classes. Something to look into. You might need more info from someone that plays a hexblade. Try the Character Optimization board to see what they think. (Makes me wonder how many pure Rangers and Paladins have taken the feat and how it has been treated.) I think your dead wrong on this one. (Please don't hit me) I think this AND multiclassing is exactly they made it. They already gave an example of ranger. Its not a question IF its beneficial and works from everyone elses take. Its a question on WHEN can you take it. Your CL would be 1/2Hex+4 straight up. So if your Hex4 it would be 2+4. Hex6 3+4. It doesn't give you more spells, new spells, or anything else. And most spells DC are 10 + Spell Level + Stat modifier. So increasing CL doesn't help with most spell DC's. Now I'm not perfect I could be wrong. It doesn't really matter here though. It would if I could improved familiar at Hex1.
kegdrainer 01-05-07, 10:53 PM	As Jstorrie says, "Expect table variation" Until I see more info (like in the FAQ), thats the way I look at it. However, since I tend to run the low level stuff, it is not likely going to be a problem. Take a look to see what you can find. For the moment, I will go with PS only working in those cases when the CL is reduced by an outside source (like Wild Magic, other classes) and not due to the class itself. (Ranger, Paladin, Hexblade.) If there is an outside source that reduces the CL, it will be applied as benefical as possible.
jstorrie 01-05-07, 11:29 PM	You're adding rules complexity where it isn't, kegdrainer. If your caster level is lower than your character level, Practised Spellcaster works.
UMiskatonic 01-05-07, 11:51 PM	Well, I've seen rangers take practiced spellcaster, and add 4 to their caster level, I don't see why it wouldn't work for a hexblade. Arguing over intent is a waste of time. If it says 'add up to +4 to your caster level, then that's what it does.' 2 + 4 = 6, last I checked. Since you'll have to take Practiced Spellcaster and Improved Familiar at 3 and 6, you might as well take 1 and your human/fighter feats on things like mounted combat and power attack. At APLs 2 and 4, a heavy warhorse with barding is a very respectable battle platform. At higher levels, not so much, but you'll have the familiar by then. It's not as if the choice is special familiar or walk. It's normal mount, or cooler mount. I think you could be a very respectable cavalryman with this build. I might lead with hex 4/ftr 2 to get a fort save and two more feats.
Iswald 01-06-07, 02:59 AM	If you intend to multiclass at some point, consider taking obtain familiar. With obtain familiar, a third level hexblade is treated as a third level sorcerer with respect to his familiar. Normally, a fourth level hexblade is only treated as a first level sorcerer. Hex 3/fighter 2/arcane x/EK y so that you can fit in enough feats for both a good familiar/mount and the feats to make use of it in combat.
ranagrande 01-06-07, 05:28 AM	Also note that the earliest you can get a hippogriff is level 8, since it requires a base attack bonus of +7.
haferka 01-06-07, 05:39 PM	There is a feat.. i think in complete mage (which might be showing up in the lgcs).. which lets you count all levels of an arcane class towards your familiar abilities... not sure how this would interact with an arcane class that already grants a limited form of this.. but... i would expect to at least count your full Hexblade level towards your CL for improved familiar.