Holy Scourge Wizard [Archive] - Wizards Community

Holy Scourge Wizard [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TWG_Prometheus
04-09-07, 12:13 AM I was taking a second look at the Holy Scourge PrC recently, and it struck me as being very similar to a Paladin-Mage idea I'd seen once before, and that got my imagination moving. Something like:

High Elf Evoker/Holy Scourge
Str 8
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 16
Wis 14
Cha 8

1 - Wizard 1: Heighten Spell, Scribe Scroll
2 - Wizard 2:
3 - Wizard 3: Craft Wondrous Item
4 - Wizard 4:
5 - Wizard 5: Metamagic School Focus (Evocation)
6 - Wizard 6: Arcane Disciple
7 - Holy Scourge 1:
8 - Holy Scourge 2:
9 - Holy Scourge 3: Chain Spell
10 - Holy Scourge 4:
11 - Holy Scourge 5:

I'm stopping the build at 11 because I really haven't thought past that. Holy Scourge does cost a spell level, but I really like the Righteous Evocation special ability...enough to make me want to play an evoker of some sort which is fairly unusual for me. The Dedicated Arcanist ability, equivalent to 2.5 Spell Penetration feats by the time you reach Holy Scourge 5 is also very attractive. Arcane Disciple was added largely for synergetic flavor with the Holy Scourge class. The selected domain would likely either be Healing or something with Divine Power as a domain spell. I don't have Complete Divine handy, so I put Arcane Disciple at 6th to give me time to reach any weird prereqs I forgot about.

Since I'd see a Holy Scourge as a very straightforward Wizard, I'm thinking the closed schools would be Enchantment and Illusion, but that's up for debate/modification. Evocation and the primary school for whatever Arcane Disciple domain I settle on is the only true must.

A few questions though:
* By my reading, Heighten Spell would increase all level-dependent effects of the spell, and this woud include the damage adjustment of Righteous Evocation. As such, a Magic Missile boosted to a 5th level spell slot by this character at 11th level would give five missiles of 1d4+1, but each individual target hit would take an extra 10 divine damage. Splitting the missiles out to one missile per target would result in a damage of 5 x 1d4+11. Hitting one target with two missiles would give a result of 2d4+12 for that single target. Is this how it would work?
* How exactly does Chain Spell work? Is this one of those funky abilities that only works with spells that have a 'Target:' entry, or would ray spells such as Ray of Enfeeblement work? If it is restricted to 'Target:' entry spells with a range greater than touch (An interpretation I disagree with to the extreme, but I'm trying to avoid/be aware of table variation) what spells would work with it?
* Does Metamagic School Focus do anything at all to Heighten Spell?

Edit: Another question I forgot. For spells like Dragon Breath or Flaming Sphere that last more than one round, does the Righteous Evocation damage get applied just the first time the spell damage triggers, or would each Flaming Sphere damage instance get full Righteous Evocation damage?
magebeast
04-09-07, 10:31 AM * How exactly does Chain Spell work? Is this one of those funky abilities that only works with spells that have a 'Target:' entry, or would ray spells such as Ray of Enfeeblement work? If it is restricted to 'Target:' entry spells with a range greater than touch (An interpretation I disagree with to the extreme, but I'm trying to avoid/be aware of table variation) what spells would work with it?

It's not an "interpretation" it's what the feat says. :rolleyes:

"Any spell that specifies a single target and has a ranger greater than touch can be chained"
Jay_Ibero_911
04-09-07, 11:35 AM * By my reading, Heighten Spell would increase all level-dependent effects of the spell, and this woud include the damage adjustment of Righteous Evocation. As such, a Magic Missile boosted to a 5th level spell slot by this character at 11th level would give five missiles of 1d4+1, but each individual target hit would take an extra 10 divine damage. Splitting the missiles out to one missile per target would result in a damage of 5 x 1d4+11. Hitting one target with two missiles would give a result of 2d4+12 for that single target. Is this how it would work?

Sounds like you got this part right.

* How exactly does Chain Spell work? Is this one of those funky abilities that only works with spells that have a 'Target:' entry, or would ray spells such as Ray of Enfeeblement work? If it is restricted to 'Target:' entry spells with a range greater than touch (An interpretation I disagree with to the extreme, but I'm trying to avoid/be aware of table variation) what spells would work with it?

As magebeast said, the feat is pretty explicit in what you can apply it to.

* Does Metamagic School Focus do anything at all to Heighten Spell?

Of course it does. If you wanted to heighten a 1st level spell to 2nd level, it would normally be a +1 spell level adjustment. With Metamagic School Focus, it becomes a +0 adjustment, but the spell is still treated as being 2nd level.

Edit: Another question I forgot. For spells like Dragon Breath or Flaming Sphere that last more than one round, does the Righteous Evocation damage get applied just the first time the spell damage triggers, or would each Flaming Sphere damage instance get full Righteous Evocation damage?

This one is a little fuzzy, because some abilities let you do extra damage every round, and some only once per spell, and they usually state which it is in either case. The Warmage Edge ability is similar, but is much more explicit in how it works. But since the Righteous Evocation ability doesn't specifically say it deals the damage every round, I'd say it only applies to the first use...

[Edit] As far as the build you've got so far, pretty solid...though I'd suggest dropping chain spell and arcane disciple for Consecrate Spell and Piercing Evocation. Consecrate Spell fits thematically, as well as synergizing well with the dedicated spellcaster ability to give you +1 caster level because it gives the spell the good descriptor, as well as changing half the damage dealt to divine energy with only a +1 level adjustment, which you can eliminate with Metamagic School Focus. Piercing Evocation lets you turn another 10 points of energy damage into untyped damage for free. So between the two, you could make almost all the damage from your spells unresistable. For example, Lets say you are at wiz6/HS5. Your fireball would normally deal 10d6 fire damage, or 35 average damage. So 17 divine, 18 fire when consecrated, but 10 of that fire damage becomes untyped, so you have 17 divine, 10 untyped, and 8 fire. But then you also deal an extra 6 divine damage from righteous evocations against evil creatures, bringing the total to 23 divine, 10 untyped, and 8 fire. Using just one of your MMSF uses for the day. If you don't take Arcane Disciple, then you can switch your WIS and CHA, so you actually get a bonus on your attack with arcane smite.
jstorrie
04-09-07, 05:07 PM Do you really need 16 Dex? If you went with Human instead, you could have 14 Dex 14 Con, instead, which I think is a much better idea, and an extra skill point. More importantly you'd have a bonus feat, which you could spend on Earth Sense: your character is easily lined up for Earth Spell, which interacts nicely with Metamagic School focus and Heighten Spell (two bonus Heighten levels instead of just one, to really tweak out your magic missile AOEs).

You might also consider taking Argent Savant levels after Holy Scourge levels, as you do fit in (Unbind Force is a wash, so you wouldn't care to go to Argent Savant 5 anyway). Since you're focusing heavily on Magic Missile blasting, the lost spell level isn't too much hurt, especially since you'd already want to take Practiced Spellcaster to keep your damage at peak.

So you could do:
Human
Str 8 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 16 Wis 14 Cha 8
1 Evoker: Earth Sense, Scribe Scroll, Arcane Disciple (War) [nets you Spiritual Weapon (another great force spell!), Magic Vestament, Flame Strike & Divine Power]
2 Evoker
3 Evoker: Craft Wondrous Item
4 Evoker
5 Evoker: Metamagic School Focus: Evocation
6 Evoker: Heighten Spell
7 Holy Scourge
8 Holy Scourge
9 Holy Scourge: Earth Spell
10 Holy Scourge
11 Holy Scourge
12 Argent Savant: Practiced Spellcaster: Evocation
13 Argent Savant
14 Argent Savant
15 Argent Savant: Quicken Spell

Spiritual Weapon is a fair low-level attack spell when your Righteous Evocation and Force Specialization are both kicking in, and it gets free Extend from Argent Savant, so I could see it being fairly useful in some circumstances, especially when Quickened, as a 'fire and forget' sort of thing.
dkay807
04-09-07, 05:17 PM Do you really need 16 Dex? If you went with Human instead, you could have 14 Dex 14 Con, instead, which I think is a much better idea, and an extra skill point. More importantly you'd have a bonus feat, which you could spend on Earth Sense: your character is easily lined up for Earth Spell, which interacts nicely with Metamagic School focus and Heighten Spell (two bonus Heighten levels instead of just one, to really tweak out your magic missile AOEs).

You might also consider taking Argent Savant levels after Holy Scourge levels, as you do fit in (Unbind Force is a wash, so you wouldn't care to go to Argent Savant 5 anyway). Since you're focusing heavily on Magic Missile blasting, the lost spell level isn't too much hurt, especially since you'd already want to take Practiced Spellcaster to keep your damage at peak.

So you could do:
Human
Str 8 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 16 Wis 14 Cha 8
1 Evoker: Earth Sense, Scribe Scroll, Arcane Disciple (War) [nets you Spiritual Weapon (another great force spell!), Magic Vestament, Flame Strike & Divine Power]
2 Evoker
3 Evoker: Craft Wondrous Item
4 Evoker
5 Evoker: Metamagic School Focus: Evocation
6 Evoker: Heighten Spell
7 Holy Scourge
8 Holy Scourge
9 Holy Scourge: Earth Spell
10 Holy Scourge
11 Holy Scourge
12 Argent Savant: Practiced Spellcaster: Evocation
13 Argent Savant
14 Argent Savant
15 Argent Savant: Quicken Spell

Spiritual Weapon is a fair low-level attack spell when your Righteous Evocation and Force Specialization are both kicking in, and it gets free Extend from Argent Savant, so I could see it being fairly useful in some circumstances, especially when Quickened, as a 'fire and forget' sort of thing.

Wow, that's a damn cool idea. Kudos.
Jay_Ibero_911
04-09-07, 05:46 PM Wow, that's a damn cool idea. Kudos.

Alternately...you could do Warmage 6/Holy Scourge5/Argent Savant4....get a whole bunch of extra damage....sucks for feats though...
Mommy was an Orc
04-09-07, 06:01 PM I'm really dubious about Holy Scourge on a couple of levels:
The big one - you're just asking to have your spellcasting nerfed. That Code of Conduct has a lot of problems. Big nasty EL +5 encounter designed to obliterate a party if they don't run as an example or perhaps talk their way through.

The loss of a caster level - as an example, a 6th level Wizard/4th level Holy Scourge and a 10th level Wizard both throw an Empowered Fireball. The Holy Scourge does (9d6)*1.5+3 damage. The Wizard 10 does 10d6*1.5 damage. i.e. the Holy Scourge does 44.25 damage on average, the Wizard 10 does 52.5 damage on average. Yes, that's a momentary weakness for the Holy Scourge, but when your Evocation specialist PrC isn't capable of holding its own against a non-specialist, there's a problem...
TWG_Prometheus
04-09-07, 09:24 PM Argent Savant was already tempting me, but I don't think I'd go for it in the end. The price of dropping a spell level for Holy Scourge is already extremely steep, and Argent Savant just exacerbates the problem. Given that I'd only have four levels left to go after Evoker 6/Holy Scourge 5, though, I'm thinking that Fatespinner looks really nice. Consecrate Spell was a good call too. Making the spells good aligned is already a good idea if you can pull it off, and Evocation normally has some issues with breaking through resistances, so it can only help. Whether I take Piercing Evocation feat would be something I'd figure out as I go.
TWG_Prometheus
04-19-07, 09:18 AM I'm not really a fan of digging up old threads, but I found a new goodie that was relevant enough to this build to justify the post. Blistering Spell is another juicy source of bonus damage that a Holy Scourge could make use of, it falls within the +1 level adjustment that works well with Metamagic School Focus, and it has an added bonus effect of hindering your enemies. Holy Fire is also just cool.

Human Evoker (Enchantment and either Necromancy or Illusion prohibited)
Str 8
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 16
Wis 14
Cha 12

1 - Evoker 1: Scribe Scroll, Practised Spellcaster(Wizard), Arcane Disciple(Myhriss - Healing)
2 - Evoker 2:
3 - Evoker 3: Craft Wondrous Item
4 - Evoker 4:
5 - Evoker 5: Blistering Spell
6 - Evoker 6: Metamagic School Focus(Evocation)
7 - Holy Scourge 1:
8 - Holy Scourge 2:
9 - Holy Scourge 3: 9th level feat
10 - Holy Scourge 4:
11 - Holy Scourge 5:
12 - Fatespinner 1: 12th level feat
13 - Fatespinner 2:
14 - Fatespinner 3:
15 - Fatespinner 4: 15th feat

Practised Spellcaster is a gut-wrenching feat to take given that I'm only planning to drop one caster level through the whole build and may be a level 7 retraining option, but as MwaO pointed out above, the loss of that one caster level is huge for an evocation specialist. Even if you make up for it with another feat or magic item like an Ioun Stone, going higher than your character level in caster levels is far better for an Evoker than just catching up to where your caster level ought to be. An enchanter or summoner probably has more leeway. Arcane Disciple is still largely for flavor, but we've been lacking healing support at the lower levels somewhat in my area, and even an Arcane Disciple can help out with that...it's far better than going into a game with no healer at all at any rate. Evocation Specialist is actually there more to give me enough slots for healing rather than for evocation.

Example high point of the build: At level 7, its casting a 3rd level spell Fireball with Blistering Spell using one of the daily Metamagic School Focus charges for 7d6+9 damage (Equivalent nearly to an Empowered Fireball at that caster level, but only as a 3rd spell instead of a MMSF 4th) and an additional penalty if the enemies fail their saves.

Any thoughts on what happens if you apply Blistering Spell to a spell that doesn't natively force a saving throw? There's a secondary effect of the metamagic feat that suggests they should be making a saving throw, but doesn't specify what that ought to be. (I'd assume either no saving throw or a Reflex save)

The build is going to be a little weak in the saving throw DC department unfortunately, but Fatespinner could help it out late in the build.

The 9th, 12th and 15th level feats are just hard calls to make: Spell Focus & Greater Spell Focus, Consecrate Spell, Elven Spell Lore, and Minor Shapeshift all have strong arguments for selection.
Sieylianna
04-19-07, 12:58 PM I really don't like practiced spellcaster for a single level. Personally, I'd pick up spell focus and greater spell focus and try to increase your DC's. If people are less likely to make their saves, it will offset being down one die.

Fatespinner 1 doesn't do much for you, so you're looking at fatespinner 2 and level 13 before it's going to help your DCs.

Ed
TWG_Prometheus
04-20-07, 09:41 AM I really don't like practiced spellcaster for a single level. Personally, I'd pick up spell focus and greater spell focus and try to increase your DC's. If people are less likely to make their saves, it will offset being down one die.

Fatespinner 1 doesn't do much for you, so you're looking at fatespinner 2 and level 13 before it's going to help your DCs.

Ed

Ran some numbers on this yesterday to figure out the impact of each feat, and the level 7 Fireball I was quoting above actually had an expected damage about 6-8% higher with Practised Spellcaster than with Spell Focus. Spell Focus would get become better than Practised Spellcaster at boosting Evocation spell damage as the caster levels got higher though of course.

What Practised Spellcaster really does for you that Spell Focus can't, though, is boost all non-evocation spells. Half a point more strength penalty on Ray of Enfeeblement, +1 on a Dispel Magic check, breaking spell resistance with anything, adding one more target to a party buff spell like Haste and extending its effect for one more round. Resist Energy 20 at level 7 instead of level 8 and Resist 30 at level 11 instead of level 12. One caster level matters.

I don't particularly like having Practised Spellcaster in a build to make up for just one caster level, but even when it's just for one, the feat pays off. It's just that good. Who knows, maybe I'll end up deciding to opt for Argent Savant after all if the caster levels are already being covered. Practised Spellcaster at level 1 also doesn't stop me from taking Spell Focus feats later on when the base spell damage is higher and needs more protection from those dirty Reflex saves.

As far as whether the Holy Scourge I'm toying with should take that or another feat, it's kind of a toss up. The argument against it is still present even with all I said above.
Jay_Ibero_911
04-20-07, 12:03 PM Race:Human
Alignment:Any Good
Evoker(Enchantment+???)

STR-10 (2)
DEX-14 (6)
CON-14 (6)
INT-17 (13)
WIS-9 (1)
CHA-8 (0)

Lv1(Wizard)Scribe Scroll, Empower Spell, Metamagic School Focus
Lv2(Wizard)
Lv3(Wizard)Craft Wondrous Item
Lv4(Wizard)+1 INT
Lv5(Wizard)Piercing Evocation
Lv6(Holy Scourge)Consecrate Spell
Lv7(Holy Scourge)
Lv8(Holy Scourge)+1 INT
Lv9(Holy Scourge)Skill Focus (Knowledge Religion)
Lv10(Holy Scourge)
Lv11(Loremaster)Bonus Feat
Lv12(Divine Oracle)Feat, +1 INT
Lv13(Divine Oracle)
Lv14(Loremaster)
Lv15(Loremaster)Feat

Here's my take on a holy scourge build...with metamagic school focus and empower spell, at 4th level you chuck 6d4 empowered burning hands, 5th level 6d6 empowered scorching ray or 7.5d4 empowered burning hands, 7th level a 12d6+2 consecrated empowered scorching ray, and 8th level a 12d6+3 Consecrated Empowered Fireball or Lightning Bolt, and 10th level you can do a 15d6+6 Consecrated Empowered Fireball or Lightning Bolt. Consecrate making half the damage divine, and piercing evocation making another 10 points unresistable. With Holy Scourge you get +1 to caster level on good spells, and consecrate spell makes them good, so it reduces the need for practiced spellcaster while providing other damage benefits as well. Not sure what to do with the last feats though...
redgamer
04-20-07, 04:29 PM If I remeber correctly you can only apply metamagic school focus once per spell. This to me suggests taking multiple metamagic feats if at least partially redundent.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TWG_Prometheus 04-09-07, 12:13 AM	I was taking a second look at the Holy Scourge PrC recently, and it struck me as being very similar to a Paladin-Mage idea I'd seen once before, and that got my imagination moving. Something like: High Elf Evoker/Holy Scourge Str 8 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 16 Wis 14 Cha 8 1 - Wizard 1: Heighten Spell, Scribe Scroll 2 - Wizard 2: 3 - Wizard 3: Craft Wondrous Item 4 - Wizard 4: 5 - Wizard 5: Metamagic School Focus (Evocation) 6 - Wizard 6: Arcane Disciple 7 - Holy Scourge 1: 8 - Holy Scourge 2: 9 - Holy Scourge 3: Chain Spell 10 - Holy Scourge 4: 11 - Holy Scourge 5: I'm stopping the build at 11 because I really haven't thought past that. Holy Scourge does cost a spell level, but I really like the Righteous Evocation special ability...enough to make me want to play an evoker of some sort which is fairly unusual for me. The Dedicated Arcanist ability, equivalent to 2.5 Spell Penetration feats by the time you reach Holy Scourge 5 is also very attractive. Arcane Disciple was added largely for synergetic flavor with the Holy Scourge class. The selected domain would likely either be Healing or something with Divine Power as a domain spell. I don't have Complete Divine handy, so I put Arcane Disciple at 6th to give me time to reach any weird prereqs I forgot about. Since I'd see a Holy Scourge as a very straightforward Wizard, I'm thinking the closed schools would be Enchantment and Illusion, but that's up for debate/modification. Evocation and the primary school for whatever Arcane Disciple domain I settle on is the only true must. A few questions though: * By my reading, Heighten Spell would increase all level-dependent effects of the spell, and this woud include the damage adjustment of Righteous Evocation. As such, a Magic Missile boosted to a 5th level spell slot by this character at 11th level would give five missiles of 1d4+1, but each individual target hit would take an extra 10 divine damage. Splitting the missiles out to one missile per target would result in a damage of 5 x 1d4+11. Hitting one target with two missiles would give a result of 2d4+12 for that single target. Is this how it would work? * How exactly does Chain Spell work? Is this one of those funky abilities that only works with spells that have a 'Target:' entry, or would ray spells such as Ray of Enfeeblement work? If it is restricted to 'Target:' entry spells with a range greater than touch (An interpretation I disagree with to the extreme, but I'm trying to avoid/be aware of table variation) what spells would work with it? * Does Metamagic School Focus do anything at all to Heighten Spell? Edit: Another question I forgot. For spells like Dragon Breath or Flaming Sphere that last more than one round, does the Righteous Evocation damage get applied just the first time the spell damage triggers, or would each Flaming Sphere damage instance get full Righteous Evocation damage?
magebeast 04-09-07, 10:31 AM	* How exactly does Chain Spell work? Is this one of those funky abilities that only works with spells that have a 'Target:' entry, or would ray spells such as Ray of Enfeeblement work? If it is restricted to 'Target:' entry spells with a range greater than touch (An interpretation I disagree with to the extreme, but I'm trying to avoid/be aware of table variation) what spells would work with it? It's not an "interpretation" it's what the feat says. :rolleyes: "Any spell that specifies a single target and has a ranger greater than touch can be chained"
Jay_Ibero_911 04-09-07, 11:35 AM	* By my reading, Heighten Spell would increase all level-dependent effects of the spell, and this woud include the damage adjustment of Righteous Evocation. As such, a Magic Missile boosted to a 5th level spell slot by this character at 11th level would give five missiles of 1d4+1, but each individual target hit would take an extra 10 divine damage. Splitting the missiles out to one missile per target would result in a damage of 5 x 1d4+11. Hitting one target with two missiles would give a result of 2d4+12 for that single target. Is this how it would work? Sounds like you got this part right. * How exactly does Chain Spell work? Is this one of those funky abilities that only works with spells that have a 'Target:' entry, or would ray spells such as Ray of Enfeeblement work? If it is restricted to 'Target:' entry spells with a range greater than touch (An interpretation I disagree with to the extreme, but I'm trying to avoid/be aware of table variation) what spells would work with it? As magebeast said, the feat is pretty explicit in what you can apply it to. * Does Metamagic School Focus do anything at all to Heighten Spell? Of course it does. If you wanted to heighten a 1st level spell to 2nd level, it would normally be a +1 spell level adjustment. With Metamagic School Focus, it becomes a +0 adjustment, but the spell is still treated as being 2nd level. Edit: Another question I forgot. For spells like Dragon Breath or Flaming Sphere that last more than one round, does the Righteous Evocation damage get applied just the first time the spell damage triggers, or would each Flaming Sphere damage instance get full Righteous Evocation damage? This one is a little fuzzy, because some abilities let you do extra damage every round, and some only once per spell, and they usually state which it is in either case. The Warmage Edge ability is similar, but is much more explicit in how it works. But since the Righteous Evocation ability doesn't specifically say it deals the damage every round, I'd say it only applies to the first use... [Edit] As far as the build you've got so far, pretty solid...though I'd suggest dropping chain spell and arcane disciple for Consecrate Spell and Piercing Evocation. Consecrate Spell fits thematically, as well as synergizing well with the dedicated spellcaster ability to give you +1 caster level because it gives the spell the good descriptor, as well as changing half the damage dealt to divine energy with only a +1 level adjustment, which you can eliminate with Metamagic School Focus. Piercing Evocation lets you turn another 10 points of energy damage into untyped damage for free. So between the two, you could make almost all the damage from your spells unresistable. For example, Lets say you are at wiz6/HS5. Your fireball would normally deal 10d6 fire damage, or 35 average damage. So 17 divine, 18 fire when consecrated, but 10 of that fire damage becomes untyped, so you have 17 divine, 10 untyped, and 8 fire. But then you also deal an extra 6 divine damage from righteous evocations against evil creatures, bringing the total to 23 divine, 10 untyped, and 8 fire. Using just one of your MMSF uses for the day. If you don't take Arcane Disciple, then you can switch your WIS and CHA, so you actually get a bonus on your attack with arcane smite.
jstorrie 04-09-07, 05:07 PM	Do you really need 16 Dex? If you went with Human instead, you could have 14 Dex 14 Con, instead, which I think is a much better idea, and an extra skill point. More importantly you'd have a bonus feat, which you could spend on Earth Sense: your character is easily lined up for Earth Spell, which interacts nicely with Metamagic School focus and Heighten Spell (two bonus Heighten levels instead of just one, to really tweak out your magic missile AOEs). You might also consider taking Argent Savant levels after Holy Scourge levels, as you do fit in (Unbind Force is a wash, so you wouldn't care to go to Argent Savant 5 anyway). Since you're focusing heavily on Magic Missile blasting, the lost spell level isn't too much hurt, especially since you'd already want to take Practiced Spellcaster to keep your damage at peak. So you could do: Human Str 8 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 16 Wis 14 Cha 8 1 Evoker: Earth Sense, Scribe Scroll, Arcane Disciple (War) [nets you Spiritual Weapon (another great force spell!), Magic Vestament, Flame Strike & Divine Power] 2 Evoker 3 Evoker: Craft Wondrous Item 4 Evoker 5 Evoker: Metamagic School Focus: Evocation 6 Evoker: Heighten Spell 7 Holy Scourge 8 Holy Scourge 9 Holy Scourge: Earth Spell 10 Holy Scourge 11 Holy Scourge 12 Argent Savant: Practiced Spellcaster: Evocation 13 Argent Savant 14 Argent Savant 15 Argent Savant: Quicken Spell Spiritual Weapon is a fair low-level attack spell when your Righteous Evocation and Force Specialization are both kicking in, and it gets free Extend from Argent Savant, so I could see it being fairly useful in some circumstances, especially when Quickened, as a 'fire and forget' sort of thing.
dkay807 04-09-07, 05:17 PM	Do you really need 16 Dex? If you went with Human instead, you could have 14 Dex 14 Con, instead, which I think is a much better idea, and an extra skill point. More importantly you'd have a bonus feat, which you could spend on Earth Sense: your character is easily lined up for Earth Spell, which interacts nicely with Metamagic School focus and Heighten Spell (two bonus Heighten levels instead of just one, to really tweak out your magic missile AOEs). You might also consider taking Argent Savant levels after Holy Scourge levels, as you do fit in (Unbind Force is a wash, so you wouldn't care to go to Argent Savant 5 anyway). Since you're focusing heavily on Magic Missile blasting, the lost spell level isn't too much hurt, especially since you'd already want to take Practiced Spellcaster to keep your damage at peak. So you could do: Human Str 8 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 16 Wis 14 Cha 8 1 Evoker: Earth Sense, Scribe Scroll, Arcane Disciple (War) [nets you Spiritual Weapon (another great force spell!), Magic Vestament, Flame Strike & Divine Power] 2 Evoker 3 Evoker: Craft Wondrous Item 4 Evoker 5 Evoker: Metamagic School Focus: Evocation 6 Evoker: Heighten Spell 7 Holy Scourge 8 Holy Scourge 9 Holy Scourge: Earth Spell 10 Holy Scourge 11 Holy Scourge 12 Argent Savant: Practiced Spellcaster: Evocation 13 Argent Savant 14 Argent Savant 15 Argent Savant: Quicken Spell Spiritual Weapon is a fair low-level attack spell when your Righteous Evocation and Force Specialization are both kicking in, and it gets free Extend from Argent Savant, so I could see it being fairly useful in some circumstances, especially when Quickened, as a 'fire and forget' sort of thing. Wow, that's a damn cool idea. Kudos.
Jay_Ibero_911 04-09-07, 05:46 PM	Wow, that's a damn cool idea. Kudos. Alternately...you could do Warmage 6/Holy Scourge5/Argent Savant4....get a whole bunch of extra damage....sucks for feats though...
Mommy was an Orc 04-09-07, 06:01 PM	I'm really dubious about Holy Scourge on a couple of levels: The big one - you're just asking to have your spellcasting nerfed. That Code of Conduct has a lot of problems. Big nasty EL +5 encounter designed to obliterate a party if they don't run as an example or perhaps talk their way through. The loss of a caster level - as an example, a 6th level Wizard/4th level Holy Scourge and a 10th level Wizard both throw an Empowered Fireball. The Holy Scourge does (9d6)1.5+3 damage. The Wizard 10 does 10d61.5 damage. i.e. the Holy Scourge does 44.25 damage on average, the Wizard 10 does 52.5 damage on average. Yes, that's a momentary weakness for the Holy Scourge, but when your Evocation specialist PrC isn't capable of holding its own against a non-specialist, there's a problem...
TWG_Prometheus 04-09-07, 09:24 PM	Argent Savant was already tempting me, but I don't think I'd go for it in the end. The price of dropping a spell level for Holy Scourge is already extremely steep, and Argent Savant just exacerbates the problem. Given that I'd only have four levels left to go after Evoker 6/Holy Scourge 5, though, I'm thinking that Fatespinner looks really nice. Consecrate Spell was a good call too. Making the spells good aligned is already a good idea if you can pull it off, and Evocation normally has some issues with breaking through resistances, so it can only help. Whether I take Piercing Evocation feat would be something I'd figure out as I go.
TWG_Prometheus 04-19-07, 09:18 AM	I'm not really a fan of digging up old threads, but I found a new goodie that was relevant enough to this build to justify the post. Blistering Spell is another juicy source of bonus damage that a Holy Scourge could make use of, it falls within the +1 level adjustment that works well with Metamagic School Focus, and it has an added bonus effect of hindering your enemies. Holy Fire is also just cool. Human Evoker (Enchantment and either Necromancy or Illusion prohibited) Str 8 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 16 Wis 14 Cha 12 1 - Evoker 1: Scribe Scroll, Practised Spellcaster(Wizard), Arcane Disciple(Myhriss - Healing) 2 - Evoker 2: 3 - Evoker 3: Craft Wondrous Item 4 - Evoker 4: 5 - Evoker 5: Blistering Spell 6 - Evoker 6: Metamagic School Focus(Evocation) 7 - Holy Scourge 1: 8 - Holy Scourge 2: 9 - Holy Scourge 3: 9th level feat 10 - Holy Scourge 4: 11 - Holy Scourge 5: 12 - Fatespinner 1: 12th level feat 13 - Fatespinner 2: 14 - Fatespinner 3: 15 - Fatespinner 4: 15th feat Practised Spellcaster is a gut-wrenching feat to take given that I'm only planning to drop one caster level through the whole build and may be a level 7 retraining option, but as MwaO pointed out above, the loss of that one caster level is huge for an evocation specialist. Even if you make up for it with another feat or magic item like an Ioun Stone, going higher than your character level in caster levels is far better for an Evoker than just catching up to where your caster level ought to be. An enchanter or summoner probably has more leeway. Arcane Disciple is still largely for flavor, but we've been lacking healing support at the lower levels somewhat in my area, and even an Arcane Disciple can help out with that...it's far better than going into a game with no healer at all at any rate. Evocation Specialist is actually there more to give me enough slots for healing rather than for evocation. Example high point of the build: At level 7, its casting a 3rd level spell Fireball with Blistering Spell using one of the daily Metamagic School Focus charges for 7d6+9 damage (Equivalent nearly to an Empowered Fireball at that caster level, but only as a 3rd spell instead of a MMSF 4th) and an additional penalty if the enemies fail their saves. Any thoughts on what happens if you apply Blistering Spell to a spell that doesn't natively force a saving throw? There's a secondary effect of the metamagic feat that suggests they should be making a saving throw, but doesn't specify what that ought to be. (I'd assume either no saving throw or a Reflex save) The build is going to be a little weak in the saving throw DC department unfortunately, but Fatespinner could help it out late in the build. The 9th, 12th and 15th level feats are just hard calls to make: Spell Focus & Greater Spell Focus, Consecrate Spell, Elven Spell Lore, and Minor Shapeshift all have strong arguments for selection.
Sieylianna 04-19-07, 12:58 PM	I really don't like practiced spellcaster for a single level. Personally, I'd pick up spell focus and greater spell focus and try to increase your DC's. If people are less likely to make their saves, it will offset being down one die. Fatespinner 1 doesn't do much for you, so you're looking at fatespinner 2 and level 13 before it's going to help your DCs. Ed
TWG_Prometheus 04-20-07, 09:41 AM	I really don't like practiced spellcaster for a single level. Personally, I'd pick up spell focus and greater spell focus and try to increase your DC's. If people are less likely to make their saves, it will offset being down one die. Fatespinner 1 doesn't do much for you, so you're looking at fatespinner 2 and level 13 before it's going to help your DCs. Ed Ran some numbers on this yesterday to figure out the impact of each feat, and the level 7 Fireball I was quoting above actually had an expected damage about 6-8% higher with Practised Spellcaster than with Spell Focus. Spell Focus would get become better than Practised Spellcaster at boosting Evocation spell damage as the caster levels got higher though of course. What Practised Spellcaster really does for you that Spell Focus can't, though, is boost all non-evocation spells. Half a point more strength penalty on Ray of Enfeeblement, +1 on a Dispel Magic check, breaking spell resistance with anything, adding one more target to a party buff spell like Haste and extending its effect for one more round. Resist Energy 20 at level 7 instead of level 8 and Resist 30 at level 11 instead of level 12. One caster level matters. I don't particularly like having Practised Spellcaster in a build to make up for just one caster level, but even when it's just for one, the feat pays off. It's just that good. Who knows, maybe I'll end up deciding to opt for Argent Savant after all if the caster levels are already being covered. Practised Spellcaster at level 1 also doesn't stop me from taking Spell Focus feats later on when the base spell damage is higher and needs more protection from those dirty Reflex saves. As far as whether the Holy Scourge I'm toying with should take that or another feat, it's kind of a toss up. The argument against it is still present even with all I said above.
Jay_Ibero_911 04-20-07, 12:03 PM	Race:Human Alignment:Any Good Evoker(Enchantment+???) STR-10 (2) DEX-14 (6) CON-14 (6) INT-17 (13) WIS-9 (1) CHA-8 (0) Lv1(Wizard)Scribe Scroll, Empower Spell, Metamagic School Focus Lv2(Wizard) Lv3(Wizard)Craft Wondrous Item Lv4(Wizard)+1 INT Lv5(Wizard)Piercing Evocation Lv6(Holy Scourge)Consecrate Spell Lv7(Holy Scourge) Lv8(Holy Scourge)+1 INT Lv9(Holy Scourge)Skill Focus (Knowledge Religion) Lv10(Holy Scourge) Lv11(Loremaster)Bonus Feat Lv12(Divine Oracle)Feat, +1 INT Lv13(Divine Oracle) Lv14(Loremaster) Lv15(Loremaster)Feat Here's my take on a holy scourge build...with metamagic school focus and empower spell, at 4th level you chuck 6d4 empowered burning hands, 5th level 6d6 empowered scorching ray or 7.5d4 empowered burning hands, 7th level a 12d6+2 consecrated empowered scorching ray, and 8th level a 12d6+3 Consecrated Empowered Fireball or Lightning Bolt, and 10th level you can do a 15d6+6 Consecrated Empowered Fireball or Lightning Bolt. Consecrate making half the damage divine, and piercing evocation making another 10 points unresistable. With Holy Scourge you get +1 to caster level on good spells, and consecrate spell makes them good, so it reduces the need for practiced spellcaster while providing other damage benefits as well. Not sure what to do with the last feats though...
redgamer 04-20-07, 04:29 PM	If I remeber correctly you can only apply metamagic school focus once per spell. This to me suggests taking multiple metamagic feats if at least partially redundent.