Holy Scourge [Archive] - Wizards Community

Holy Scourge [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Churcher
01-16-08, 11:15 PM Is it worth it?

I looked at it just briefly and I thought it would be a decent prestige class for a Warmage. If I'm not mistaken, the Rightous Evocation stacks with the Warmage Edge ability. Is it worth it to start adding in more damage over time this way. Granted it's only against Evil creatures, but it can't be reduced by resistance or immunity. Also, I'm wanting to throw out a Fireball with a decent damage bonus. I know my saves won't go up a good amount, and there's no BAB increase worth mentioning, and not enough skills...but hey, that's not my job. My job is obliterating Evil and my magic will accomplish that mission!

No build yet...I don't want to get TOO excited about this one...but expect a build sometime tommorow...
Jay_Ibero_911
01-17-08, 02:45 AM Is it worth it?

I looked at it just briefly and I thought it would be a decent prestige class for a Warmage. If I'm not mistaken, the Rightous Evocation stacks with the Warmage Edge ability. Is it worth it to start adding in more damage over time this way. Granted it's only against Evil creatures, but it can't be reduced by resistance or immunity. Also, I'm wanting to throw out a Fireball with a decent damage bonus. I know my saves won't go up a good amount, and there's no BAB increase worth mentioning, and not enough skills...but hey, that's not my job. My job is obliterating Evil and my magic will accomplish that mission!

No build yet...I don't want to get TOO excited about this one...but expect a build sometime tommorow...

Consecrate Spell
Spell Focus Evocation
Metamagic School Focus (Evocation)
Piercing Evocation

Consecrate Spell makes half the damage divine and gains the good descriptor so it gets the +1 caster level boost from the dedicated spellcaster ability. Piercing Evocation makes 10 points of damage untyped and therefore irrisistable at no cost. Of course Holy Scourge automatically sucks for any caster because you lose a caster level. If you get access to Rainbow Servant you can take at least of level of that to get the good domain for +1 CL to good spells, and you can make any spells good with consecrate spell. So something like:

Warmage 7/Holy Scourge5/Rainbow Servant3 for the Warmage Paladin type

Race:Human
Alignment:Lawful/Neutral Good

STR-10 (2)
DEX-14 (6)
CON-14 (6)
INT-14 (6)
WIS-8 (0)
CHA-15 (8)

Lv1(Warmage)Spell Focus (Evocation), Piercing Evocation
Lv2(Warmage)
Lv3(Warmage)Empower Spell
Lv4(Warmage)+1 CHA
Lv5(Warmage)
Lv6(Warmage)Metamagic School Focus
Lv7(Warmage)
Lv8(Holy Scourge)+1 CHA
Lv9(Holy Scourge)Rapid Metamagic
Lv10(Holy Scourge)
Lv11(Holy Scourge)
Lv12(Holy Scourge)Consecrate Spell, +1 CHA
Lv13(Rainbow Servant)
Lv14(Rainbow Servant)
Lv15(Rainbow Servant)Feat

Perfect build for the flavor...but you lose either one or two caster levels based on interpretation of rainbow servant...Piercing Evocation is great to have right off the bat for ensuring damage regardless of resistances...and you can empower or consecrate 3/day at reduced slot cost, and empower for free once per day.
TWG_Prometheus
01-17-08, 08:59 AM Is it worth it?

In raw mathematical terms, no it isn't worth it. If you like the notion of a Holy Scourge and just want to make one, however, I wouldn't let that stop you. Before the end of the campaign was announced, I was considering making a Wizard/Holy Scourge myself because the idea appealed to me.

You'll be better off than a Warmage that dumped a level into something irrelevant, like a single level of Paladin. You'll be worse off, overall, than if you had just stayed pure Warmage due to the negative impact of losing a caster level on any spells that aren't Evocation. Your Evocation spells will be mostly even or a bit better than if you had just stayed pure Warmage.

You'll also get the nifty bonus against evil creatures with spell resistance that isn't factored in above, but it's not enough to shake the negative impact of being 'down one' for all of your non-Evocation spells.

If you're willing to pay the cost for the flavor of what I consider to be a very cool class, then I'd say go for it. I can't pretend that the class is mathematically sound, however.
MwaO
01-17-08, 10:39 AM Is it worth it?

Holy Scourge is one of those classes that has lots of great flavor, but is incredibly suboptimal.

You're losing a caster level - as a Warmage 7/Holy Scourge 3, you do a 9d6 Fireball + 3 damage. As a Warmage 10, you do a 10d6 Fireball. That's the same average damage and in most cases, the only thing that creates a difference is if the thing is Evil and normally immune to your spell. 3 or 1 hp of damage is not going to make or break a battle. 9d6 of Fireball damage will get through most normal resistance.

But that's not looking at the fact that the Warmage 10 has 5th level spells and can therefore likely Empower that Fireball.

The main strength that Warmage has is that at APL, it likely has significantly more spell choices than any other caster. Going down a level destroys the best capability a Warmage gets. Again, using Warmage 10 as an example, it doesn't get the best possible spells out there - but Arc of Lightning, Cloudkill, Fireburst Greater, Flame Strike, Sculpted Evard's and Empowered Fireball are all decent APL 10 spells. If you're only caster 9, you're down to Evard's and Orbs for your top tier spells.

At 11th, then the normal casters have 6th level spells, so you haven't caught up...
copperwyrmling
01-17-08, 12:36 PM Piercing Evocation makes 10 points of damage untyped and therefore irrisistable at no cost.

I still don't understand why people recommend Piercing Evocation. It only comes into play if the creature's resistances are high enough that you're getting less than 10 damage through normally, and then Piercing Evocation bumps it up to 10 (or less if they saved for half). At mid-high levels, if you do 10 damage with a damage spell, it was a wasted action. Mid-high levels are also where you start to encounter significant energy resistances: I can see Piercing Evocation helping with burning hands / shocking grasp / scorching ray in the baby levels, if you fight energy-resistant monsters then (at APL 2-4 10 damage is still meaningful), but it seems like clear retrain-bait later on.

To illustrate: at CL 6, say I cast fireball for 6d6 -> 21 average fire damage, against a bunch of monsters with fire resistance 10. If they fail their saves, I do 11 damage. If I have Piercing Evocation, I also do 11 damage (10 untyped, 11 fire, the 10 untyped gets through and the fire resist reduces the fire damage down to 1). If they pass their saves, I do 0 damage without Piercing Evocation, and with Piercing Evocation I do 5 damage (5 untyped, 5 fire is negated by resistance -> 5 total). So the effect of the feat is to deal 5 damage to each monster who passes its save. Unless you're fighting lots and LOTS of very weak opponents, this is NOT worth a feat. By CL 9, there's no difference between having piercing evocation and not having it with fireball, vs energy resist 10, regardless of whether they save or not.

If they're immune to fire, I do zero damage without Piercing Evocation, whereas with it I do 10 damage if they fail their saves, 5 damage if they pass. This still isn't a good use of a primary arcanist's standard action beyond about APL 4 (especially if it's a spontaneous caster, since they could've taken Energy Substitution instead with that feat and spontaneously Coldballed the things).

Can someone explain to me why this is considered to be a useful feat?
jstorrie
01-17-08, 02:14 PM It's not a useful feat.

The true power of Holy Scourge is not Righteous Evocation (the +damage ability). It's Devoted Arcanist (add class level to SR checks vs. evil creatures.) This makes it useful for Sorcerors, who don't have to spend spell slots on 'no SR damage spells,' but can just keep using their 'regular evocation damage spell.'

As mentioned above, definitely pair with Metamagic School Focus Evocation and any metamagic feats that are reasonable, plus Rapid Metamagic.
JamesMaissen
01-18-08, 05:04 AM Can someone explain to me why this is considered to be a useful feat?

There are some spells that don't do much damage but are useful.

Wall of fire and flame arrow spring to mind.

I'm not saying it's a great feat, but there could be uses.

Now all that said.. don't loose caster levels with a warmage. You need the top level *SLOTS*. Caster level can be fixed, but the slots gone will be what hurts you.

-James

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Churcher 01-16-08, 11:15 PM	Is it worth it? I looked at it just briefly and I thought it would be a decent prestige class for a Warmage. If I'm not mistaken, the Rightous Evocation stacks with the Warmage Edge ability. Is it worth it to start adding in more damage over time this way. Granted it's only against Evil creatures, but it can't be reduced by resistance or immunity. Also, I'm wanting to throw out a Fireball with a decent damage bonus. I know my saves won't go up a good amount, and there's no BAB increase worth mentioning, and not enough skills...but hey, that's not my job. My job is obliterating Evil and my magic will accomplish that mission! No build yet...I don't want to get TOO excited about this one...but expect a build sometime tommorow...
Jay_Ibero_911 01-17-08, 02:45 AM	Is it worth it? I looked at it just briefly and I thought it would be a decent prestige class for a Warmage. If I'm not mistaken, the Rightous Evocation stacks with the Warmage Edge ability. Is it worth it to start adding in more damage over time this way. Granted it's only against Evil creatures, but it can't be reduced by resistance or immunity. Also, I'm wanting to throw out a Fireball with a decent damage bonus. I know my saves won't go up a good amount, and there's no BAB increase worth mentioning, and not enough skills...but hey, that's not my job. My job is obliterating Evil and my magic will accomplish that mission! No build yet...I don't want to get TOO excited about this one...but expect a build sometime tommorow... Consecrate Spell Spell Focus Evocation Metamagic School Focus (Evocation) Piercing Evocation Consecrate Spell makes half the damage divine and gains the good descriptor so it gets the +1 caster level boost from the dedicated spellcaster ability. Piercing Evocation makes 10 points of damage untyped and therefore irrisistable at no cost. Of course Holy Scourge automatically sucks for any caster because you lose a caster level. If you get access to Rainbow Servant you can take at least of level of that to get the good domain for +1 CL to good spells, and you can make any spells good with consecrate spell. So something like: Warmage 7/Holy Scourge5/Rainbow Servant3 for the Warmage Paladin type Race:Human Alignment:Lawful/Neutral Good STR-10 (2) DEX-14 (6) CON-14 (6) INT-14 (6) WIS-8 (0) CHA-15 (8) Lv1(Warmage)Spell Focus (Evocation), Piercing Evocation Lv2(Warmage) Lv3(Warmage)Empower Spell Lv4(Warmage)+1 CHA Lv5(Warmage) Lv6(Warmage)Metamagic School Focus Lv7(Warmage) Lv8(Holy Scourge)+1 CHA Lv9(Holy Scourge)Rapid Metamagic Lv10(Holy Scourge) Lv11(Holy Scourge) Lv12(Holy Scourge)Consecrate Spell, +1 CHA Lv13(Rainbow Servant) Lv14(Rainbow Servant) Lv15(Rainbow Servant)Feat Perfect build for the flavor...but you lose either one or two caster levels based on interpretation of rainbow servant...Piercing Evocation is great to have right off the bat for ensuring damage regardless of resistances...and you can empower or consecrate 3/day at reduced slot cost, and empower for free once per day.
TWG_Prometheus 01-17-08, 08:59 AM	Is it worth it? In raw mathematical terms, no it isn't worth it. If you like the notion of a Holy Scourge and just want to make one, however, I wouldn't let that stop you. Before the end of the campaign was announced, I was considering making a Wizard/Holy Scourge myself because the idea appealed to me. You'll be better off than a Warmage that dumped a level into something irrelevant, like a single level of Paladin. You'll be worse off, overall, than if you had just stayed pure Warmage due to the negative impact of losing a caster level on any spells that aren't Evocation. Your Evocation spells will be mostly even or a bit better than if you had just stayed pure Warmage. You'll also get the nifty bonus against evil creatures with spell resistance that isn't factored in above, but it's not enough to shake the negative impact of being 'down one' for all of your non-Evocation spells. If you're willing to pay the cost for the flavor of what I consider to be a very cool class, then I'd say go for it. I can't pretend that the class is mathematically sound, however.
MwaO 01-17-08, 10:39 AM	Is it worth it? Holy Scourge is one of those classes that has lots of great flavor, but is incredibly suboptimal. You're losing a caster level - as a Warmage 7/Holy Scourge 3, you do a 9d6 Fireball + 3 damage. As a Warmage 10, you do a 10d6 Fireball. That's the same average damage and in most cases, the only thing that creates a difference is if the thing is Evil and normally immune to your spell. 3 or 1 hp of damage is not going to make or break a battle. 9d6 of Fireball damage will get through most normal resistance. But that's not looking at the fact that the Warmage 10 has 5th level spells and can therefore likely Empower that Fireball. The main strength that Warmage has is that at APL, it likely has significantly more spell choices than any other caster. Going down a level destroys the best capability a Warmage gets. Again, using Warmage 10 as an example, it doesn't get the best possible spells out there - but Arc of Lightning, Cloudkill, Fireburst Greater, Flame Strike, Sculpted Evard's and Empowered Fireball are all decent APL 10 spells. If you're only caster 9, you're down to Evard's and Orbs for your top tier spells. At 11th, then the normal casters have 6th level spells, so you haven't caught up...
copperwyrmling 01-17-08, 12:36 PM	Piercing Evocation makes 10 points of damage untyped and therefore irrisistable at no cost. I still don't understand why people recommend Piercing Evocation. It only comes into play if the creature's resistances are high enough that you're getting less than 10 damage through normally, and then Piercing Evocation bumps it up to 10 (or less if they saved for half). At mid-high levels, if you do 10 damage with a damage spell, it was a wasted action. Mid-high levels are also where you start to encounter significant energy resistances: I can see Piercing Evocation helping with burning hands / shocking grasp / scorching ray in the baby levels, if you fight energy-resistant monsters then (at APL 2-4 10 damage is still meaningful), but it seems like clear retrain-bait later on. To illustrate: at CL 6, say I cast fireball for 6d6 -> 21 average fire damage, against a bunch of monsters with fire resistance 10. If they fail their saves, I do 11 damage. If I have Piercing Evocation, I also do 11 damage (10 untyped, 11 fire, the 10 untyped gets through and the fire resist reduces the fire damage down to 1). If they pass their saves, I do 0 damage without Piercing Evocation, and with Piercing Evocation I do 5 damage (5 untyped, 5 fire is negated by resistance -> 5 total). So the effect of the feat is to deal 5 damage to each monster who passes its save. Unless you're fighting lots and LOTS of very weak opponents, this is NOT worth a feat. By CL 9, there's no difference between having piercing evocation and not having it with fireball, vs energy resist 10, regardless of whether they save or not. If they're immune to fire, I do zero damage without Piercing Evocation, whereas with it I do 10 damage if they fail their saves, 5 damage if they pass. This still isn't a good use of a primary arcanist's standard action beyond about APL 4 (especially if it's a spontaneous caster, since they could've taken Energy Substitution instead with that feat and spontaneously Coldballed the things). Can someone explain to me why this is considered to be a useful feat?
jstorrie 01-17-08, 02:14 PM	It's not a useful feat. The true power of Holy Scourge is not Righteous Evocation (the +damage ability). It's Devoted Arcanist (add class level to SR checks vs. evil creatures.) This makes it useful for Sorcerors, who don't have to spend spell slots on 'no SR damage spells,' but can just keep using their 'regular evocation damage spell.' As mentioned above, definitely pair with Metamagic School Focus Evocation and any metamagic feats that are reasonable, plus Rapid Metamagic.
JamesMaissen 01-18-08, 05:04 AM	Can someone explain to me why this is considered to be a useful feat? There are some spells that don't do much damage but are useful. Wall of fire and flame arrow spring to mind. I'm not saying it's a great feat, but there could be uses. Now all that said.. don't loose caster levels with a warmage. You need the top level SLOTS. Caster level can be fixed, but the slots gone will be what hurts you. -James