How about this? Dumb? Brilliant? [Archive] - Wizards Community

How about this? Dumb? Brilliant? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Morgen
10-07-06, 02:17 AM Well I found this really nice elf mini somewhere. A lightly armored elf with a shield and a long sword and I thought to myself, "Self, you've never seen and elf fighting with a shield before, have you?" So I tried to build a character to fit the mini very annoyingly. I've got access to a lot of things through a church in the Shield Lands.

I'm trying to essentially build up an elfin knight in my own round about way. I have no idea what I've come up with so I ask you all. What the heck is this?

~Kethavel Selkie~
Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 4/Champion of Corellon Larethian 2/Animal Lord (Catlord) 2/Wildrunner 5+

Swashbuckler 1 - Weapon Finesse (Free), WF: Longsword
Fighter 1 - Dodge
Fighter 2 - Mounted Combat, EWP: Elven Thinblade
Swashbuckler 2
Swashbuckler 3
Fighter 3 - Combat Expertise
Fighter 4 - Weapon Specialization: Longsword
Champion of Col Lar 1 - Ride-by Attack(?)
Champion of Col Lar 2 - Endurance
Animal Lord (Catlord) 1
Animal Lord (Catlord) 2
Wildrunner 1 - Improved Critical: Longsword
Wildrunner 2
Wildrunner 3
Wildrunner 4 - Something (Spirited Charge? Leadership? No Idea.)
Wildrunner 5 - Retirement

I don't have to think about where to put my skill points because they're already all spoken for. Pretty sure I'll need at least a 16 Int. Stats are the hardest part of this it seems. Wish we were 32 point buy....almost.

High Elf -> STR 14, DEX 16, CON 12, INT 16, WIS 8, CHA 8
or
High Elf -> STR 12, DEX 16, CON 12, INT 16, WIS 8, CHA 8
or
Grey Elf -> STR 12, DEX 16, CON 12, INT 16, WIS 8, CHA 12
or
????

With decent gear and stat bumps to dexterity he could have a nicely ridiculous AC fighting defensively. Full BAB, and a good +11 or so to damage on average. Stat bump items offer a lot for different areas, though no power attack might hurt. Thinblade would have a high critical percentage and confirming wouldn't be to terribly hard. Undead and golems would suck, but then when don't they?

Get a bow and a lance and a light warhorse and wonder the world in search of some epic quest, annoying dwarves as he goes? I'm just not even sure if this is crazy enough to work though. Opinions? Ideas? Suggestions?

~~~~~~~~~~~~
-Gabriel
Morgen
10-07-06, 02:42 AM Suppose I should post his attacks and AC just in case no one sees where I'm trying to go. I'm assuming that I don't have anything that's not core access beyond the thinblade.

Elven Thinblade (+1) - +21/+16/+11
Damage would be +2 (STR) +3 (INT) +4 (DEX) +2 (Weapon Specialization) +1 (Magic) for 1d8+12 with a 17-20/x2 crit-range. +4 more with Primal Scream. Though it'd end up being only 1d8+5 against the wrong opponent.

AC would be about 22 normally, 23 with dodge and 25 with the Primal Scream. (Base: 10 +4 (DEX) +5 (chain shirt +1) +3 (heavy steel shield +1))

Fighting Defensively and Expertising could easily get me up to 30-33 AC and obviously this is assuming rather pathetic equipment for a level 15. An AC of 40+ is entirely possible. (+2 mithril breastplate, +2 shield, +2 Ring of Protection, +2 Natural Armor amulet, +1 to +10 Buffed, etc)

Hit points would probably end up being about 109 at level 15 without any buffs. Not too terrible for a 12 con.
Iswald
10-07-06, 03:08 AM Animal Lord throws me for a loop, though there are mechanical reasons to include it and I wouldn't be surprised if you had RP reasons. Otherwise, I'd drop the two levels of Animal Lord, only take two levels of Wildrunner and focus instead of Champion of Corellon Larethian.

I would suggest this:

Grey Elf -> STR 13, DEX 16, CON 12, INT 16, WIS 8, CHA 10

Put your first stat bump into strength and the second two into dex. Where you put your last one at level 16 doesn't matter. This will let you qualify for power attack, though you don't have much room for it. Maybe drop endurance and, hmm... yeah, move something. Or, just take power attack at 9th level. You can take improved weapon familiarity instead of exotic weapon proficiency. This will let you qualify for CoCL (CW pg 155) and you could take two other feats instead of weapon specialization and weapon focus. For instance, improved shield bash and TWF or work in spirited charge.

Some folks like outcast champion. If your character was a half-elf, you could work that into your build. Requires no feats, but you do need some skills.
Mommy was an Orc
10-07-06, 03:00 PM I'd likely ignore Swashbuckler. 3 levels of it are rarely worthwhile unless you have major Int synergy elsewhere. Which you don't.

Try making the character a Wood Elf and put 3 levels of Ranger there instead - start with a 17 Str, 16 Dex, 12 Con, 13 Int, 8 Wis, 8 Cha and level Strength. It really solves all your problems and you even do more damage, makes you much more useful to the party as a whole(suddenly all those ranks in Survival mean you're a decent tracker as an example), and you can put Wildrunner in at levels 6 and 7 for more immediate impact at levels 7 and 9. i.e. you're using that +6 Dex, +2 Str for +4 additional damage with your longsword at level 9 instead of waiting for level 13.

I'd also try to get Mounted Combat moved up to 1st or 2nd level and put Power Attack in there.
Morgen
10-07-06, 10:57 PM Actually since I was trying to make a finessed base fighter-knight instead of a power attacking strength based melee character I went with Swashbuckler. Ranger lowers my overall HP, which is important with a 12 con. I don't see an elven knight being all strength; I mostly want finesse and grace.

Catlord is pretty much so I have survival enough to get into wildrunner. I was pondering a level of ranger somewhere in all of that but it wasn't adding up right without giving an XP penalty.

STR 13, DEX 16, CON 12, INT 16, WIS 8, CHA 10 sounds like the best array for my stats though, very nice with the stat bump to strength at 4th.

This would all be easier if they'd let me make a Knight from the PHB2 of course. Maybe moving Mounted Combat up a little might help too. Hmm...
paigeoliver
10-07-06, 11:45 PM An XP penalty is not a bad thing. It is really more of an advantage, since it makes you better equipped than other characters of your level, which can be important when trying to play a character like a DEX fighter, since those seldom work as well in play as big dumb fighters do.
Mommy was an Orc
10-08-06, 12:09 AM Actually since I was trying to make a finessed base fighter-knight instead of a power attacking strength based melee character I went with Swashbuckler. Ranger lowers my overall HP, which is important with a 12 con. I don't see an elven knight being all strength; I mostly want finesse and grace.

Ranger lowers your hit points, having a 17 Str and TWF means opponents fall a lot faster. Dead opponents mean you take less damage. Having a better to-hit chance means you can use Combat Expertise more often.

The biggest mistake I see players make is that they fall in love with a mechanic and assume they're falling in love with the concept. You want to be a finesse fighter - that doesn't mean you have to have Weapon Finesse or low Strength to be a Finesse fighter - having the extra feat from not having to take Weapon Finesse puts Elusive Target well into the realm of possibility around 9th or so - a very, very, very finesse fighter feat.

Power Attack is there, not because I expect you to constantly use it, but there are instances where you're going to be attacking something that has a relatively low AC, DR 5/-, and is immune to critical hits(aka Elementals, a variety of Undead, Plants, etc...). It is okay for the party Rogue to go helpless, but when the party tank can't do any damage, the aftermath of the game isn't going to be pretty.

STR 13, DEX 16, CON 12, INT 16, WIS 8, CHA 10 sounds like the best array for my stats though, very nice with the stat bump to strength at 4th.

You're going to have a similar AC to most tanks, but your hit points and damage will be much worse. This is not a good thing.
Morgen
10-08-06, 12:57 AM Well I was attempting to make a character fit a mini. I had no intentions on even making a tank or a two-weapon fighter. Just get this loner character out of my head and onto some paper.

I didn't even think of Elusive Target though, hmmm..
Mommy was an Orc
10-08-06, 10:17 AM Well I was attempting to make a character fit a mini. I had no intentions on even making a tank or a two-weapon fighter. Just get this loner character out of my head and onto some paper.

I didn't even think of Elusive Target though, hmmm..

Change TWF to Rapid Shot. Or just ignore the extra feat altogether and wear armor that doesn't let you use it. You're still better off being the guy who can occasionally choose to do damage via THF when necessary.

Also, think about the possibility of Improved Shield Bash with TWF - you're a tricky fighter who knows how to use all his equipment well.

I'm not saying you should be the tank - but as you're spending all your skill points cross-classing for Wildrunner, you don't really serve a purpose to a party other than the guy who hopes not to get hit when you don't get finesse damage(which is always during levels 1-4...) Also, note, at 9th-12th level, my build is likely doing the same 'finesse' damage that your build is, but with an additional +6 or so Strength and free bite from WIldrunner.
Mommy was an Orc
10-08-06, 01:58 PM Here's a build that seems to work with you're thinking about, but goes in the direction I'm talking about:

Wood Elf
Str 17, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 8

1: Ranger 1: Mounted Combat
2: Fighter 1: WF: Longsword
3: Fighter 2: Combat Expertise, Power Attack
4: Ranger 2: Rapid Shot: Str 18
5: Ranger 3
6: Wildrunner 1: Dodge
7: Wildrunner 2
8: Champion of Corellon 1: Mobility: Str 19
9: Champion of Corellon 2: Elusive Target
10: Fighter 3
11: Fighter 4: Weapon Specialization
12: CoC 3: Improved Crit: Longsword: Str 20
13: CoC 4: ?
14: Wildrunner 3
15: Wildrunner 4: ?
Morgen
10-09-06, 02:30 AM Well that certainly would be a very effective build. Never thought about going wildrunner first for some reason. I was simply trying to tack on the extra skill points and weapon damage to get a fair amount of use out of everything right away and have some decent synergy with diplomacy and the like.

I’ll have to give it a try.
Reylance
10-09-06, 04:34 PM My similar build:

Grey Elf, S12 D16 C12 I16 W10 C10
Classes, Rgr1, Sws1, Rgr2, Sws2-3, Rgr3, Wildrunner1-2, Ftr1, ChampionOfCorellon1-2, Wildrunner3+
Feats: EWP Thinblade, Weapon Finesse, TWF, Mounted Combat, Dodge, Endurance, Combat Expertise, Improved Critical, Mobility, Improved TWF, Greater TWF
clik_ml
10-09-06, 11:06 PM Wood Elf
Str 17, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 8

The two odd stats of str 17 and int 13 baffle me.

You could just go Str 18 and Int 12, reap the benefits of 18 strength for the first 3 levels, swap dodge and combat expertise in the build and you are good to go.

This means you can get your +4 strength bow right out of the gates and you get your super two-handed damage as well (the extra +1 attack/+2 damage will make a big difference at low APL).

I'm definitely with Mommy on prioritizing strength over intelligence especially to the point of ignoring swashbuckler. Trying to get int to damage is usually a trap. It requires a wider spread of abilities than simply relying upon strength, and most every swashbuckler who uses int to damage does so at the expense of strength... which is a big mistake, mechanically.

A swashbuckler's weapon finesse and canny strike are band-aids that try to cover for their weakness, but are never quite as good as the real-deal high strength. Reylance's build above tries to make up for it by utilizing the fact that bonus damage is made more effective by TWFing, but at the low-mid APLs (8 and under) that fighter's damage output is going to be very light, comparable to a support character. That's a long wait to come into one's own to start dealing some real damage.

Using a shield however (as you seem wont to do, Gabriel) will definitely cut down hard on the damage output for a modest gain in AC.
Iswald
10-09-06, 11:15 PM The two odd stats of str 17 and int 13 baffle me.

You could just go Str 18 and Int 12, reap the benefits of 18 strength for the first 3 levels, swap dodge and combat expertise in the build and you are good to go.

To get the 18, you'll have to drop some other stat besides int. Dex is the only thing you can take points from. In this case, the 17 isn't so bad since you don't need to have more than 13 int. The end result is better as well since you still get to 20 str and 13 int, but your dex is 16 instead of only 14.
clik_ml
10-10-06, 12:32 AM To get the 18, you'll have to drop some other stat besides int. Dex is the only thing you can take points from. In this case, the 17 isn't so bad since you don't need to have more than 13 int. The end result is better as well since you still get to 20 str and 13 int, but your dex is 16 instead of only 14.

Not on a wood elf (as indicated by Mommy). The strength and int both have base costs of 8 points, i.e. 15 in each stat prior to racial mods (+2str,+2dex,-2con,-2int for a wood elf).
clik_ml
10-10-06, 01:43 AM Here's my attempt at a sword and shield using lightly armored elf.

Wood Elf
16/16/12/12/8/12
bumps int/dex/dex

2 Rgr/2 Ftr/1 Rgr/2Wildrunner/8 ChampCorellon
Feats
1)ImprovedShieldBash
2R)TWF
3)WFocus(longsword)
3F)Dodge
4F)CombatExpertise
5)Endurance
6)MountedCombat
8CoC)-
9)ImpTWF
12)GreaterTWF
etc.

Theory behind this one being that I want to make use of the bonus damage and not be totally hampered by use of a shield (it really is a pain to make good use of it). It could be tweaked (mostly to the slight delay of prestige classes) to allow barbarian rage, or oversized TWF+power attack, but this is the meat and potatoes version.
Timlagor
10-10-06, 07:26 AM My advice for this would be to dump CoCL altogether.

There are two ways to make CoCL work: TWF (2level) or Heavy Armour (lots)
If you don't like either of those then you really should avoid all those annoying requirements.

Look and Bladesinger or Duellist instead -damage will drop but you can at least cork effectively.
Timlagor
10-10-06, 07:40 AM I've dug out the build I made when I was thinking about this a while back.
Caveat: I had Dervish in there because I'd failed to notice the Frenzy/Dance issue and I just chopped it so I may have messed something else up in the process.

Grey Elf
Str 12 6
Dex 17 8
Con 12 6
Int 16 6
Wis 9 0
Cha 10 2
All bumps to Dex. 10 Cha for the 3 Screams, Grey Elves are just better than normal Elves ;)
Lots of skill points to keep Survival, Stealth and Acrobatics high.

1 Ranger 1 Dodge (Track)
2 Ranger 2 (TWF)
3 Swashbuckler1 Combat Expertise(Weapon Finesse)
4 Swashbuckler2
5 Swashbuckler3 (Int to damage)
6 Fighter 1 [WF(Longsword)] + OTWF <temporary 20% xp penalty>
7 Fighter2 Mounted Combat <no xp penalty>
8 CoCL1 [Elusive Target/Imp Combat Expertise]
9 CoCL2 ITWF (Dex to damage)
10 Ranger3 (Endurance)
11 Wild Runner1 Power Attack (belt/guantlets)
12 Wild Runner2 GTWF (Primal Scream)

Wield Twin Longswords.
You can put Dervish back in (at level 7, delaying everything else and losing OTWF for Mobility) to use Scimitars.

In LG I'd probably take Mounted Combat early to use a Heavy Warhorse without affecting the APL at low levels. It does suffer a lot against crit-immune critters before 11th though so I decided the Wood Elf without Swashbuckler was too much more effective in the end [and then played a Cleric in the campaign it was for]
Timlagor
10-10-06, 07:50 AM The one place Swashbuckler 3 is nice is on Dex-based Rogue-Fighters ...with a decent Intelligence -ok that's pretty specific

Such characters will often dip Fighter and want Finesse anyway -dip Swash instead (and maybe take Fighter 2 anyway for another Feat) and the next 2 levels of swashbuckler give up only 1d6 and a few skill points in exchange for Intuitive Strike and an HP or two. Int 14 for 2 damage even when not flanking is as good as the 1d6 and you can always put on a hearband.

Clearly such a character makes a significant portion of their contribution through skills as they have all the Rogue combat problems.

This sort of thing is probably better in a campaign where the DM can bear your weaknesses in mind.
Mommy was an Orc
10-10-06, 09:35 AM The two odd stats of str 17 and int 13 baffle me.

You could just go Str 18 and Int 12, reap the benefits of 18 strength for the first 3 levels, swap dodge and combat expertise in the build and you are good to go.

This means you can get your +4 strength bow right out of the gates and you get your super two-handed damage as well (the extra +1 attack/+2 damage will make a big difference at low APL).

The reason behind str 17/int 13 is an odd one, but it involves being(in my view) superior at levels 4-5 with Combat Expertise over Dodge. When playing up, Combat Expertise allows the low Con melee character take on the role of battlefield cork if they have a high strength.

Nothing is quite as bad as playing up with a low Con melee character.

Pick up some trip weapons, put +4-5 onto AC, and then try to make Trip attacks. The loss of the +4/free attack hurts, but at APL 4 and 6, a lot of opponents are sufficiently vulnerable to this. Until 4th level, the character doesn't have Rapid Shot in any case, so hurling Javelins should be sufficient most of the time.

I generally find APL 4-6 more worrisome than APL 2 - at APL 2, redoing a character isn't that big of a deal. At APL 4-6, I've invested enough into a character that they're meaningful, but at the same time there's often not enough cash for a raise dead.

And low Con melee characters need raise dead more than most...
Morgen
10-10-06, 03:25 PM Well there are needed feats that require 13 int and having a 17 str is way cheaper then starting with a 20.

Though I was trying to make something a little less generic and all that then the high strength wood-elf with some kind of great sword. I attempting to shy away from the BDF mold. It's nice to be able to do something outside of combat other then maybe some tracking.

Suppose if we're just going with strength I could make a Half-orc Barbarian 7/Bear Warrior 5/Warshaper 3.....

Bear Rage=STR 40 at 15th.

Bear Rage>Ancient Red Dragon

No sneak attacks, critting. Larger damage for claws and bite, More HP from con bonus, Reach, etc.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Morgen 10-07-06, 02:17 AM	Well I found this really nice elf mini somewhere. A lightly armored elf with a shield and a long sword and I thought to myself, "Self, you've never seen and elf fighting with a shield before, have you?" So I tried to build a character to fit the mini very annoyingly. I've got access to a lot of things through a church in the Shield Lands. I'm trying to essentially build up an elfin knight in my own round about way. I have no idea what I've come up with so I ask you all. What the heck is this? ~Kethavel Selkie~ Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 4/Champion of Corellon Larethian 2/Animal Lord (Catlord) 2/Wildrunner 5+ Swashbuckler 1 - Weapon Finesse (Free), WF: Longsword Fighter 1 - Dodge Fighter 2 - Mounted Combat, EWP: Elven Thinblade Swashbuckler 2 Swashbuckler 3 Fighter 3 - Combat Expertise Fighter 4 - Weapon Specialization: Longsword Champion of Col Lar 1 - Ride-by Attack(?) Champion of Col Lar 2 - Endurance Animal Lord (Catlord) 1 Animal Lord (Catlord) 2 Wildrunner 1 - Improved Critical: Longsword Wildrunner 2 Wildrunner 3 Wildrunner 4 - Something (Spirited Charge? Leadership? No Idea.) Wildrunner 5 - Retirement I don't have to think about where to put my skill points because they're already all spoken for. Pretty sure I'll need at least a 16 Int. Stats are the hardest part of this it seems. Wish we were 32 point buy....almost. High Elf -> STR 14, DEX 16, CON 12, INT 16, WIS 8, CHA 8 or High Elf -> STR 12, DEX 16, CON 12, INT 16, WIS 8, CHA 8 or Grey Elf -> STR 12, DEX 16, CON 12, INT 16, WIS 8, CHA 12 or ???? With decent gear and stat bumps to dexterity he could have a nicely ridiculous AC fighting defensively. Full BAB, and a good +11 or so to damage on average. Stat bump items offer a lot for different areas, though no power attack might hurt. Thinblade would have a high critical percentage and confirming wouldn't be to terribly hard. Undead and golems would suck, but then when don't they? Get a bow and a lance and a light warhorse and wonder the world in search of some epic quest, annoying dwarves as he goes? I'm just not even sure if this is crazy enough to work though. Opinions? Ideas? Suggestions? ~~~~~~~~~~~~ -Gabriel
Morgen 10-07-06, 02:42 AM	Suppose I should post his attacks and AC just in case no one sees where I'm trying to go. I'm assuming that I don't have anything that's not core access beyond the thinblade. Elven Thinblade (+1) - +21/+16/+11 Damage would be +2 (STR) +3 (INT) +4 (DEX) +2 (Weapon Specialization) +1 (Magic) for 1d8+12 with a 17-20/x2 crit-range. +4 more with Primal Scream. Though it'd end up being only 1d8+5 against the wrong opponent. AC would be about 22 normally, 23 with dodge and 25 with the Primal Scream. (Base: 10 +4 (DEX) +5 (chain shirt +1) +3 (heavy steel shield +1)) Fighting Defensively and Expertising could easily get me up to 30-33 AC and obviously this is assuming rather pathetic equipment for a level 15. An AC of 40+ is entirely possible. (+2 mithril breastplate, +2 shield, +2 Ring of Protection, +2 Natural Armor amulet, +1 to +10 Buffed, etc) Hit points would probably end up being about 109 at level 15 without any buffs. Not too terrible for a 12 con.
Iswald 10-07-06, 03:08 AM	Animal Lord throws me for a loop, though there are mechanical reasons to include it and I wouldn't be surprised if you had RP reasons. Otherwise, I'd drop the two levels of Animal Lord, only take two levels of Wildrunner and focus instead of Champion of Corellon Larethian. I would suggest this: Grey Elf -> STR 13, DEX 16, CON 12, INT 16, WIS 8, CHA 10 Put your first stat bump into strength and the second two into dex. Where you put your last one at level 16 doesn't matter. This will let you qualify for power attack, though you don't have much room for it. Maybe drop endurance and, hmm... yeah, move something. Or, just take power attack at 9th level. You can take improved weapon familiarity instead of exotic weapon proficiency. This will let you qualify for CoCL (CW pg 155) and you could take two other feats instead of weapon specialization and weapon focus. For instance, improved shield bash and TWF or work in spirited charge. Some folks like outcast champion. If your character was a half-elf, you could work that into your build. Requires no feats, but you do need some skills.
Mommy was an Orc 10-07-06, 03:00 PM	I'd likely ignore Swashbuckler. 3 levels of it are rarely worthwhile unless you have major Int synergy elsewhere. Which you don't. Try making the character a Wood Elf and put 3 levels of Ranger there instead - start with a 17 Str, 16 Dex, 12 Con, 13 Int, 8 Wis, 8 Cha and level Strength. It really solves all your problems and you even do more damage, makes you much more useful to the party as a whole(suddenly all those ranks in Survival mean you're a decent tracker as an example), and you can put Wildrunner in at levels 6 and 7 for more immediate impact at levels 7 and 9. i.e. you're using that +6 Dex, +2 Str for +4 additional damage with your longsword at level 9 instead of waiting for level 13. I'd also try to get Mounted Combat moved up to 1st or 2nd level and put Power Attack in there.
Morgen 10-07-06, 10:57 PM	Actually since I was trying to make a finessed base fighter-knight instead of a power attacking strength based melee character I went with Swashbuckler. Ranger lowers my overall HP, which is important with a 12 con. I don't see an elven knight being all strength; I mostly want finesse and grace. Catlord is pretty much so I have survival enough to get into wildrunner. I was pondering a level of ranger somewhere in all of that but it wasn't adding up right without giving an XP penalty. STR 13, DEX 16, CON 12, INT 16, WIS 8, CHA 10 sounds like the best array for my stats though, very nice with the stat bump to strength at 4th. This would all be easier if they'd let me make a Knight from the PHB2 of course. Maybe moving Mounted Combat up a little might help too. Hmm...
paigeoliver 10-07-06, 11:45 PM	An XP penalty is not a bad thing. It is really more of an advantage, since it makes you better equipped than other characters of your level, which can be important when trying to play a character like a DEX fighter, since those seldom work as well in play as big dumb fighters do.
Mommy was an Orc 10-08-06, 12:09 AM	Actually since I was trying to make a finessed base fighter-knight instead of a power attacking strength based melee character I went with Swashbuckler. Ranger lowers my overall HP, which is important with a 12 con. I don't see an elven knight being all strength; I mostly want finesse and grace. Ranger lowers your hit points, having a 17 Str and TWF means opponents fall a lot faster. Dead opponents mean you take less damage. Having a better to-hit chance means you can use Combat Expertise more often. The biggest mistake I see players make is that they fall in love with a mechanic and assume they're falling in love with the concept. You want to be a finesse fighter - that doesn't mean you have to have Weapon Finesse or low Strength to be a Finesse fighter - having the extra feat from not having to take Weapon Finesse puts Elusive Target well into the realm of possibility around 9th or so - a very, very, very finesse fighter feat. Power Attack is there, not because I expect you to constantly use it, but there are instances where you're going to be attacking something that has a relatively low AC, DR 5/-, and is immune to critical hits(aka Elementals, a variety of Undead, Plants, etc...). It is okay for the party Rogue to go helpless, but when the party tank can't do any damage, the aftermath of the game isn't going to be pretty. STR 13, DEX 16, CON 12, INT 16, WIS 8, CHA 10 sounds like the best array for my stats though, very nice with the stat bump to strength at 4th. You're going to have a similar AC to most tanks, but your hit points and damage will be much worse. This is not a good thing.
Morgen 10-08-06, 12:57 AM	Well I was attempting to make a character fit a mini. I had no intentions on even making a tank or a two-weapon fighter. Just get this loner character out of my head and onto some paper. I didn't even think of Elusive Target though, hmmm..
Mommy was an Orc 10-08-06, 10:17 AM	Well I was attempting to make a character fit a mini. I had no intentions on even making a tank or a two-weapon fighter. Just get this loner character out of my head and onto some paper. I didn't even think of Elusive Target though, hmmm.. Change TWF to Rapid Shot. Or just ignore the extra feat altogether and wear armor that doesn't let you use it. You're still better off being the guy who can occasionally choose to do damage via THF when necessary. Also, think about the possibility of Improved Shield Bash with TWF - you're a tricky fighter who knows how to use all his equipment well. I'm not saying you should be the tank - but as you're spending all your skill points cross-classing for Wildrunner, you don't really serve a purpose to a party other than the guy who hopes not to get hit when you don't get finesse damage(which is always during levels 1-4...) Also, note, at 9th-12th level, my build is likely doing the same 'finesse' damage that your build is, but with an additional +6 or so Strength and free bite from WIldrunner.
Mommy was an Orc 10-08-06, 01:58 PM	Here's a build that seems to work with you're thinking about, but goes in the direction I'm talking about: Wood Elf Str 17, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 8 1: Ranger 1: Mounted Combat 2: Fighter 1: WF: Longsword 3: Fighter 2: Combat Expertise, Power Attack 4: Ranger 2: Rapid Shot: Str 18 5: Ranger 3 6: Wildrunner 1: Dodge 7: Wildrunner 2 8: Champion of Corellon 1: Mobility: Str 19 9: Champion of Corellon 2: Elusive Target 10: Fighter 3 11: Fighter 4: Weapon Specialization 12: CoC 3: Improved Crit: Longsword: Str 20 13: CoC 4: ? 14: Wildrunner 3 15: Wildrunner 4: ?
Morgen 10-09-06, 02:30 AM	Well that certainly would be a very effective build. Never thought about going wildrunner first for some reason. I was simply trying to tack on the extra skill points and weapon damage to get a fair amount of use out of everything right away and have some decent synergy with diplomacy and the like. I’ll have to give it a try.
Reylance 10-09-06, 04:34 PM	My similar build: Grey Elf, S12 D16 C12 I16 W10 C10 Classes, Rgr1, Sws1, Rgr2, Sws2-3, Rgr3, Wildrunner1-2, Ftr1, ChampionOfCorellon1-2, Wildrunner3+ Feats: EWP Thinblade, Weapon Finesse, TWF, Mounted Combat, Dodge, Endurance, Combat Expertise, Improved Critical, Mobility, Improved TWF, Greater TWF
clik_ml 10-09-06, 11:06 PM	Wood Elf Str 17, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 8 The two odd stats of str 17 and int 13 baffle me. You could just go Str 18 and Int 12, reap the benefits of 18 strength for the first 3 levels, swap dodge and combat expertise in the build and you are good to go. This means you can get your +4 strength bow right out of the gates and you get your super two-handed damage as well (the extra +1 attack/+2 damage will make a big difference at low APL). I'm definitely with Mommy on prioritizing strength over intelligence especially to the point of ignoring swashbuckler. Trying to get int to damage is usually a trap. It requires a wider spread of abilities than simply relying upon strength, and most every swashbuckler who uses int to damage does so at the expense of strength... which is a big mistake, mechanically. A swashbuckler's weapon finesse and canny strike are band-aids that try to cover for their weakness, but are never quite as good as the real-deal high strength. Reylance's build above tries to make up for it by utilizing the fact that bonus damage is made more effective by TWFing, but at the low-mid APLs (8 and under) that fighter's damage output is going to be very light, comparable to a support character. That's a long wait to come into one's own to start dealing some real damage. Using a shield however (as you seem wont to do, Gabriel) will definitely cut down hard on the damage output for a modest gain in AC.
Iswald 10-09-06, 11:15 PM	The two odd stats of str 17 and int 13 baffle me. You could just go Str 18 and Int 12, reap the benefits of 18 strength for the first 3 levels, swap dodge and combat expertise in the build and you are good to go. To get the 18, you'll have to drop some other stat besides int. Dex is the only thing you can take points from. In this case, the 17 isn't so bad since you don't need to have more than 13 int. The end result is better as well since you still get to 20 str and 13 int, but your dex is 16 instead of only 14.
clik_ml 10-10-06, 12:32 AM	To get the 18, you'll have to drop some other stat besides int. Dex is the only thing you can take points from. In this case, the 17 isn't so bad since you don't need to have more than 13 int. The end result is better as well since you still get to 20 str and 13 int, but your dex is 16 instead of only 14. Not on a wood elf (as indicated by Mommy). The strength and int both have base costs of 8 points, i.e. 15 in each stat prior to racial mods (+2str,+2dex,-2con,-2int for a wood elf).
clik_ml 10-10-06, 01:43 AM	Here's my attempt at a sword and shield using lightly armored elf. Wood Elf 16/16/12/12/8/12 bumps int/dex/dex 2 Rgr/2 Ftr/1 Rgr/2Wildrunner/8 ChampCorellon Feats 1)ImprovedShieldBash 2R)TWF 3)WFocus(longsword) 3F)Dodge 4F)CombatExpertise 5)Endurance 6)MountedCombat 8CoC)- 9)ImpTWF 12)GreaterTWF etc. Theory behind this one being that I want to make use of the bonus damage and not be totally hampered by use of a shield (it really is a pain to make good use of it). It could be tweaked (mostly to the slight delay of prestige classes) to allow barbarian rage, or oversized TWF+power attack, but this is the meat and potatoes version.
Timlagor 10-10-06, 07:26 AM	My advice for this would be to dump CoCL altogether. There are two ways to make CoCL work: TWF (2level) or Heavy Armour (lots) If you don't like either of those then you really should avoid all those annoying requirements. Look and Bladesinger or Duellist instead -damage will drop but you can at least cork effectively.
Timlagor 10-10-06, 07:40 AM	I've dug out the build I made when I was thinking about this a while back. Caveat: I had Dervish in there because I'd failed to notice the Frenzy/Dance issue and I just chopped it so I may have messed something else up in the process. Grey Elf Str 12 6 Dex 17 8 Con 12 6 Int 16 6 Wis 9 0 Cha 10 2 All bumps to Dex. 10 Cha for the 3 Screams, Grey Elves are just better than normal Elves ;) Lots of skill points to keep Survival, Stealth and Acrobatics high. 1 Ranger 1 Dodge (Track) 2 Ranger 2 (TWF) 3 Swashbuckler1 Combat Expertise(Weapon Finesse) 4 Swashbuckler2 5 Swashbuckler3 (Int to damage) 6 Fighter 1 [WF(Longsword)] + OTWF <temporary 20% xp penalty> 7 Fighter2 Mounted Combat <no xp penalty> 8 CoCL1 [Elusive Target/Imp Combat Expertise] 9 CoCL2 ITWF (Dex to damage) 10 Ranger3 (Endurance) 11 Wild Runner1 Power Attack (belt/guantlets) 12 Wild Runner2 GTWF (Primal Scream) Wield Twin Longswords. You can put Dervish back in (at level 7, delaying everything else and losing OTWF for Mobility) to use Scimitars. In LG I'd probably take Mounted Combat early to use a Heavy Warhorse without affecting the APL at low levels. It does suffer a lot against crit-immune critters before 11th though so I decided the Wood Elf without Swashbuckler was too much more effective in the end [and then played a Cleric in the campaign it was for]
Timlagor 10-10-06, 07:50 AM	The one place Swashbuckler 3 is nice is on Dex-based Rogue-Fighters ...with a decent Intelligence -ok that's pretty specific Such characters will often dip Fighter and want Finesse anyway -dip Swash instead (and maybe take Fighter 2 anyway for another Feat) and the next 2 levels of swashbuckler give up only 1d6 and a few skill points in exchange for Intuitive Strike and an HP or two. Int 14 for 2 damage even when not flanking is as good as the 1d6 and you can always put on a hearband. Clearly such a character makes a significant portion of their contribution through skills as they have all the Rogue combat problems. This sort of thing is probably better in a campaign where the DM can bear your weaknesses in mind.
Mommy was an Orc 10-10-06, 09:35 AM	The two odd stats of str 17 and int 13 baffle me. You could just go Str 18 and Int 12, reap the benefits of 18 strength for the first 3 levels, swap dodge and combat expertise in the build and you are good to go. This means you can get your +4 strength bow right out of the gates and you get your super two-handed damage as well (the extra +1 attack/+2 damage will make a big difference at low APL). The reason behind str 17/int 13 is an odd one, but it involves being(in my view) superior at levels 4-5 with Combat Expertise over Dodge. When playing up, Combat Expertise allows the low Con melee character take on the role of battlefield cork if they have a high strength. Nothing is quite as bad as playing up with a low Con melee character. Pick up some trip weapons, put +4-5 onto AC, and then try to make Trip attacks. The loss of the +4/free attack hurts, but at APL 4 and 6, a lot of opponents are sufficiently vulnerable to this. Until 4th level, the character doesn't have Rapid Shot in any case, so hurling Javelins should be sufficient most of the time. I generally find APL 4-6 more worrisome than APL 2 - at APL 2, redoing a character isn't that big of a deal. At APL 4-6, I've invested enough into a character that they're meaningful, but at the same time there's often not enough cash for a raise dead. And low Con melee characters need raise dead more than most...
Morgen 10-10-06, 03:25 PM	Well there are needed feats that require 13 int and having a 17 str is way cheaper then starting with a 20. Though I was trying to make something a little less generic and all that then the high strength wood-elf with some kind of great sword. I attempting to shy away from the BDF mold. It's nice to be able to do something outside of combat other then maybe some tracking. Suppose if we're just going with strength I could make a Half-orc Barbarian 7/Bear Warrior 5/Warshaper 3..... Bear Rage=STR 40 at 15th. Bear Rage>Ancient Red Dragon No sneak attacks, critting. Larger damage for claws and bite, More HP from con bonus, Reach, etc.