How did you learn Commune? [Archive] - Wizards Community

How did you learn Commune? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Fakegoatee
09-18-07, 08:32 AM My Wizard is about to start taking Divine Oracle levels, and so I've been asking Customer Service for some rules clarifications. First, I asked if a Wizard/Divine Oracle could add Augury, Divination, or Commune to his book for free when he leveled. They said no. A wizard/divine oracle who wants those spells has to find or buy a divine scroll and copy it into his spellbook.

I didn't like that, so I thought of this workaround. The Arcance Disciple feat lets you learn divine domain spells "as normal for your class." But here's the catch: to cast them you have to have a Wisdom of at least 10 + spell level. So, a pure wizard with Arcane Disciple feat could learn Divination as normal and cast it if he has a Wis of at least 13.

So, I asked Customer Service this: Suppose a wizard/divine oracle has the Arcane Disciple (Oracle domain) feat and has a Wisdom of 10. There are then 2 ways Divination could get into his spell book -- being copied from a scroll or for free when he levels. Does how the spell got into his book make a difference to whether or not he can cast it?

Their answer in full: "The wizard needs 13 Wisdom to cast Divination."

That struck me as a non sequitur, so I've asked whether it applies regardless of how the wizard got the spell into his book and regardless of whether he has the Arcane Disciple feat.

While I wait, I thought I'd ask the community:

1. How did YOUR Wiz/DO learn Commune, since you can't take it as a level-up spell and scrolls of it aren't open? Were you lucky enough to get access by finding a scroll?

2. What's your Wiz/DO's Wisdom score?

3. Are Commune and Augury worth buying a periapt of wisdom to cast?

4. Do you think the PHB p. 179, "To prepare a divine spell, a character must have a Wisdom score of 10 + the spell's level," applies to spells Wizards and Sorcerers cast due to Prestige Class domains? The "Extra Domains" rules on p. 20 of CD don't mention this requirement.
Lomiat
09-18-07, 09:02 AM An arcane Divine Oracle casts the Oracle domain spells as arcane spells, and they are thus based off the Divine Oracle's INT or CHA score, not WIS.

Frankly, I'm surprised Customer Service told you that the Divine Oracle couldn't write the spells into the spellbook when your PC leveled. I'd first get a second opinion from your Triad or the Cirle or somebody else; that just doesn't make sense to me.

My Divine Oracle actually bought the scrolls (Augury, Divination, and Commune), but scrolls of Commune are difficult to find as they're not Open access. I had to burn a favor for that one. In the long run, though, it's been well worth burning the favor.
Eagle Prince
09-18-07, 10:38 AM Would it be possible to play with another Divine Oracle wizard and copy the spells from their spellbook? That might be the easiest way, assuming you could find such a person.
Mattastrophic
09-18-07, 11:54 AM 1. How did YOUR Wiz/DO learn Commune, since you can't take it as a level-up spell and scrolls of it aren't open? Were you lucky enough to get access by finding a scroll?

2. What's your Wiz/DO's Wisdom score?

3. Are Commune and Augury worth buying a periapt of wisdom to cast?

4. Do you think the PHB p. 179, "To prepare a divine spell, a character must have a Wisdom score of 10 + the spell's level," applies to spells Wizards and Sorcerers cast due to Prestige Class domains? The "Extra Domains" rules on p. 20 of CD don't mention this requirement.

1. I took 'em when I levelled. CS is wrong on this one. They're on your spell list, which means they're fair game.

2. Seven.

3. Nope. Amulet of Health +6 > Periapt.

4. It does not, because they're not divine spells, they're arcane spells for you.

-Matt
jstorrie
09-18-07, 01:32 PM Can't you get potions of Owl's Wisdom for when you need to Augur/Commune?

As far as I know, the arcane/divine scroll thing is obsolete 3.0 crunch. If it's on your spell list, you can use a scroll of it.
magebeast
09-18-07, 04:18 PM Can't you get potions of Owl's Wisdom for when you need to Augur/Commune?

As far as I know, the arcane/divine scroll thing is obsolete 3.0 crunch. If it's on your spell list, you can use a scroll of it.

Negative. Wands are that way, scrolls are not. But somewhere in the complete divine, I believe, it mentions that if there is no arcane version of a spell, an arcane caster who gains access to a divine spell can use a divine scroll to scribe it.
Mommy was an Orc
09-18-07, 05:14 PM 1. I took 'em when I levelled. CS is wrong on this one. They're on your spell list, which means they're fair game.

Actually, it is clear cut that you can't do that...Extra Domains specifies that you need to use a scroll if you have a spellbook.

If she is a spellcaster who keeps a spellbook as a wizard does, then she must find or purchase a scroll of that spell and pay the usual price to scribe the spell into her spellbook. In cases where the spell is only divine the wizard may scribe a divine scroll into his book.
Fakegoatee
09-18-07, 06:11 PM Can't you get potions of Owl's Wisdom for when you need to Augur/Commune?

The duration on Owl's Wisdom is shorter than the casting time for Commune, so I don't think that would work. That's why I'm thinking I'd need a periapt, if I need Wisdom to cast those spells.
dkay807
09-18-07, 08:14 PM I scribed it from another Divine Oracle's spellbook. Whether or not he picked it up legally isn't really my concern.
Timlagor
09-19-07, 10:35 AM Clearly your mistake was in asking WotC CS :)

I think Mommy is being overly strict in his reading. It does say "must" but it looks to me like a clear case of the writer not thinking of all the options.

I wouldn't consider stopping a DO from getting the spell into their spellbook by any of the usual methods.
Mommy was an Orc
09-19-07, 11:22 AM I think Mommy is being overly strict in his reading. It does say "must" but it looks to me like a clear case of the writer not thinking of all the options.

Wait a minute, aren't we talking about the best editing job in WotC history? Complete Divine, right?

...

I think that's the only possible reading, but I'd say the writer likely didn't think things through and the edit supreme team missed it. But CustServ is not at fault here - they did give the OP a proper reading of the rules as written.

Of course, if my 'Favored Soul of Pelor' Beguiler ever makes it to 10th, he's going to use Unseen Seer 2 to pick Commune as a spell known.
awroe
09-20-07, 04:19 PM I think that's the only possible reading, but I'd say the writer likely didn't think things through and the edit supreme team missed it. But CustServ is not at fault here - they did give the OP a proper reading of the rules as written.

Perhaps it is trying to say that the caster must scribe it into their spellbook rather than having it granted by their deity like a divine caster, rather than restricting them from gaining access the ususal way.
Fakegoatee
09-20-07, 06:44 PM Just an update on my conversation with CS.

They're now telling me that the Arcane Disciple (Oracle domain) feat means that a divine oracle needs 13 Wisdom to cast Divination, even if she got the spell by copying it from a scroll.

I thought it was logically impossible for Customer Service to be wrong about the rules, but now I'm starting to wonder. A divine oracle WITHOUT Arcane Disciple could copy and cast Divination regardless of her Wisdom. It makes no sense that taking the feat (and not using its provision to learn the spell "as normal for her class") would make it harder for her to cast the spell.

These rules are a mess. The best interpretation seems to be that a Div. Or. with Arc. Disc. should be able to cast Augury, Divination, and Commune copied from scrolls no matter her Wisdom, but need high Wis to cast them if she got them from leveling up (because then they're gained through the feat rather than the PrC).

But that interpretation has an easy loophole any Wiz with CWI and 9 Wis could exploit.

0. Use Arcane Disc. to get one of these spells.
1. Craft a periapt of Wisdom.
2. Scribe a scroll of the spell you want to cast.
3. Copy the scroll you scribed back into your book.
4. Sell your periapt.
5. Cast the spell anyway.

It costs some XP to do this, but it would probably be worth it.

The CS interpretation makes this impossible, but it also makes it very hard for arcane divine oracles in LG to get commune legally.
Nutation
09-20-07, 07:09 PM Just an update on my conversation with CS.

They're now telling me that the Arcane Disciple (Oracle domain) feat means that a divine oracle needs 13 Wisdom to cast Divination, even if she got the spell by copying it from a scroll.

You or they are confused. Arcane Disciple and divine oracle are unrelated ways of giving an arcane caster access to otherwise divine spells.

The Arcane Disciple feat specifies that wisdom is used for casting. A divine oracle gains access to the Oracle domain as a class ability and uses normal casting rules for the class (subject to the rules in CD about gaining a new domain).

There is no reason why a divine oracle would take the Arcane Disciple feat for the Oracle domain. It is redundant and more restricted than the class ability. (Only the class ability grants the domain ability.)

So when you write
The best interpretation seems to be that a Div. Or. with Arc. Disc...
you are describing a situation that should not occur.
Fakegoatee
09-21-07, 11:37 AM There is no reason why a divine oracle would take the Arcane Disciple feat for the Oracle domain. It is redundant and more restricted than the class ability. (Only the class ability grants the domain ability.)

There is one reason. A Div. Or. WITHOUT Arc. Disc. can only learn certain domain spells by copying them from scroll, not for free on level-up. A character with Arc. Disc. can learn the spells for free on level-up. Scrolls of Commune being expensive and NONC, a Div. Or. who wants to learn Commune might consider using Arc. Disc. to do it.

Arcane Disciple and divine oracle are unrelated ways of giving an arcane caster access to otherwise divine spells.

The Arcane Disciple feat specifies that wisdom is used for casting. A divine oracle gains access to the Oracle domain as a class ability and uses normal casting rules for the class (subject to the rules in CD about gaining a new domain).

This I agree with. I asked Cust. Serv. whether a Div. Oracle with low wisdom would lose the ability to cast domain spells if she takes the Arcane Disciple feat, though, and they said yes, much to my surprise.

Apparently, their view is that the text of the feat rules takes precedence over the "Extra Domains" rules. Knowing that, I'll probably just buy scrolls of Augury and Divination and cross my fingers for a scroll of Commune someday. It looks like the easy learning advantage of Arcane Disciple isn't so great after all.

EDIT: I looked back through my ARs. I've got a favor I can use to get a scroll of Commune, so I've got nothing to worry about -- except gold.
kjenks
09-22-07, 10:20 PM My level 15 sorceress casts Commune whenever she wants -- with a Limited Wish. It's fun to have a 1 round casting time instead of 10 minutes, but I've never taken advantage of that short casting time to use it in combat.
Maesto
09-23-07, 02:28 PM I picked up the funny spells from a meta-org library effect, which specifically stated it had the domain spells available as well.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fakegoatee 09-18-07, 08:32 AM	My Wizard is about to start taking Divine Oracle levels, and so I've been asking Customer Service for some rules clarifications. First, I asked if a Wizard/Divine Oracle could add Augury, Divination, or Commune to his book for free when he leveled. They said no. A wizard/divine oracle who wants those spells has to find or buy a divine scroll and copy it into his spellbook. I didn't like that, so I thought of this workaround. The Arcance Disciple feat lets you learn divine domain spells "as normal for your class." But here's the catch: to cast them you have to have a Wisdom of at least 10 + spell level. So, a pure wizard with Arcane Disciple feat could learn Divination as normal and cast it if he has a Wis of at least 13. So, I asked Customer Service this: Suppose a wizard/divine oracle has the Arcane Disciple (Oracle domain) feat and has a Wisdom of 10. There are then 2 ways Divination could get into his spell book -- being copied from a scroll or for free when he levels. Does how the spell got into his book make a difference to whether or not he can cast it? Their answer in full: "The wizard needs 13 Wisdom to cast Divination." That struck me as a non sequitur, so I've asked whether it applies regardless of how the wizard got the spell into his book and regardless of whether he has the Arcane Disciple feat. While I wait, I thought I'd ask the community: 1. How did YOUR Wiz/DO learn Commune, since you can't take it as a level-up spell and scrolls of it aren't open? Were you lucky enough to get access by finding a scroll? 2. What's your Wiz/DO's Wisdom score? 3. Are Commune and Augury worth buying a periapt of wisdom to cast? 4. Do you think the PHB p. 179, "To prepare a divine spell, a character must have a Wisdom score of 10 + the spell's level," applies to spells Wizards and Sorcerers cast due to Prestige Class domains? The "Extra Domains" rules on p. 20 of CD don't mention this requirement.
Lomiat 09-18-07, 09:02 AM	An arcane Divine Oracle casts the Oracle domain spells as arcane spells, and they are thus based off the Divine Oracle's INT or CHA score, not WIS. Frankly, I'm surprised Customer Service told you that the Divine Oracle couldn't write the spells into the spellbook when your PC leveled. I'd first get a second opinion from your Triad or the Cirle or somebody else; that just doesn't make sense to me. My Divine Oracle actually bought the scrolls (Augury, Divination, and Commune), but scrolls of Commune are difficult to find as they're not Open access. I had to burn a favor for that one. In the long run, though, it's been well worth burning the favor.
Eagle Prince 09-18-07, 10:38 AM	Would it be possible to play with another Divine Oracle wizard and copy the spells from their spellbook? That might be the easiest way, assuming you could find such a person.
Mattastrophic 09-18-07, 11:54 AM	1. How did YOUR Wiz/DO learn Commune, since you can't take it as a level-up spell and scrolls of it aren't open? Were you lucky enough to get access by finding a scroll? 2. What's your Wiz/DO's Wisdom score? 3. Are Commune and Augury worth buying a periapt of wisdom to cast? 4. Do you think the PHB p. 179, "To prepare a divine spell, a character must have a Wisdom score of 10 + the spell's level," applies to spells Wizards and Sorcerers cast due to Prestige Class domains? The "Extra Domains" rules on p. 20 of CD don't mention this requirement. 1. I took 'em when I levelled. CS is wrong on this one. They're on your spell list, which means they're fair game. 2. Seven. 3. Nope. Amulet of Health +6 > Periapt. 4. It does not, because they're not divine spells, they're arcane spells for you. -Matt
jstorrie 09-18-07, 01:32 PM	Can't you get potions of Owl's Wisdom for when you need to Augur/Commune? As far as I know, the arcane/divine scroll thing is obsolete 3.0 crunch. If it's on your spell list, you can use a scroll of it.
magebeast 09-18-07, 04:18 PM	Can't you get potions of Owl's Wisdom for when you need to Augur/Commune? As far as I know, the arcane/divine scroll thing is obsolete 3.0 crunch. If it's on your spell list, you can use a scroll of it. Negative. Wands are that way, scrolls are not. But somewhere in the complete divine, I believe, it mentions that if there is no arcane version of a spell, an arcane caster who gains access to a divine spell can use a divine scroll to scribe it.
Mommy was an Orc 09-18-07, 05:14 PM	1. I took 'em when I levelled. CS is wrong on this one. They're on your spell list, which means they're fair game. Actually, it is clear cut that you can't do that...Extra Domains specifies that you need to use a scroll if you have a spellbook. If she is a spellcaster who keeps a spellbook as a wizard does, then she must find or purchase a scroll of that spell and pay the usual price to scribe the spell into her spellbook. In cases where the spell is only divine the wizard may scribe a divine scroll into his book.
Fakegoatee 09-18-07, 06:11 PM	Can't you get potions of Owl's Wisdom for when you need to Augur/Commune? The duration on Owl's Wisdom is shorter than the casting time for Commune, so I don't think that would work. That's why I'm thinking I'd need a periapt, if I need Wisdom to cast those spells.
dkay807 09-18-07, 08:14 PM	I scribed it from another Divine Oracle's spellbook. Whether or not he picked it up legally isn't really my concern.
Timlagor 09-19-07, 10:35 AM	Clearly your mistake was in asking WotC CS :) I think Mommy is being overly strict in his reading. It does say "must" but it looks to me like a clear case of the writer not thinking of all the options. I wouldn't consider stopping a DO from getting the spell into their spellbook by any of the usual methods.
Mommy was an Orc 09-19-07, 11:22 AM	I think Mommy is being overly strict in his reading. It does say "must" but it looks to me like a clear case of the writer not thinking of all the options. Wait a minute, aren't we talking about the best editing job in WotC history? Complete Divine, right? ... I think that's the only possible reading, but I'd say the writer likely didn't think things through and the edit supreme team missed it. But CustServ is not at fault here - they did give the OP a proper reading of the rules as written. Of course, if my 'Favored Soul of Pelor' Beguiler ever makes it to 10th, he's going to use Unseen Seer 2 to pick Commune as a spell known.
awroe 09-20-07, 04:19 PM	I think that's the only possible reading, but I'd say the writer likely didn't think things through and the edit supreme team missed it. But CustServ is not at fault here - they did give the OP a proper reading of the rules as written. Perhaps it is trying to say that the caster must scribe it into their spellbook rather than having it granted by their deity like a divine caster, rather than restricting them from gaining access the ususal way.
Fakegoatee 09-20-07, 06:44 PM	Just an update on my conversation with CS. They're now telling me that the Arcane Disciple (Oracle domain) feat means that a divine oracle needs 13 Wisdom to cast Divination, even if she got the spell by copying it from a scroll. I thought it was logically impossible for Customer Service to be wrong about the rules, but now I'm starting to wonder. A divine oracle WITHOUT Arcane Disciple could copy and cast Divination regardless of her Wisdom. It makes no sense that taking the feat (and not using its provision to learn the spell "as normal for her class") would make it harder for her to cast the spell. These rules are a mess. The best interpretation seems to be that a Div. Or. with Arc. Disc. should be able to cast Augury, Divination, and Commune copied from scrolls no matter her Wisdom, but need high Wis to cast them if she got them from leveling up (because then they're gained through the feat rather than the PrC). But that interpretation has an easy loophole any Wiz with CWI and 9 Wis could exploit. 0. Use Arcane Disc. to get one of these spells. 1. Craft a periapt of Wisdom. 2. Scribe a scroll of the spell you want to cast. 3. Copy the scroll you scribed back into your book. 4. Sell your periapt. 5. Cast the spell anyway. It costs some XP to do this, but it would probably be worth it. The CS interpretation makes this impossible, but it also makes it very hard for arcane divine oracles in LG to get commune legally.
Nutation 09-20-07, 07:09 PM	Just an update on my conversation with CS. They're now telling me that the Arcane Disciple (Oracle domain) feat means that a divine oracle needs 13 Wisdom to cast Divination, even if she got the spell by copying it from a scroll. You or they are confused. Arcane Disciple and divine oracle are unrelated ways of giving an arcane caster access to otherwise divine spells. The Arcane Disciple feat specifies that wisdom is used for casting. A divine oracle gains access to the Oracle domain as a class ability and uses normal casting rules for the class (subject to the rules in CD about gaining a new domain). There is no reason why a divine oracle would take the Arcane Disciple feat for the Oracle domain. It is redundant and more restricted than the class ability. (Only the class ability grants the domain ability.) So when you write The best interpretation seems to be that a Div. Or. with Arc. Disc... you are describing a situation that should not occur.
Fakegoatee 09-21-07, 11:37 AM	There is no reason why a divine oracle would take the Arcane Disciple feat for the Oracle domain. It is redundant and more restricted than the class ability. (Only the class ability grants the domain ability.) There is one reason. A Div. Or. WITHOUT Arc. Disc. can only learn certain domain spells by copying them from scroll, not for free on level-up. A character with Arc. Disc. can learn the spells for free on level-up. Scrolls of Commune being expensive and NONC, a Div. Or. who wants to learn Commune might consider using Arc. Disc. to do it. Arcane Disciple and divine oracle are unrelated ways of giving an arcane caster access to otherwise divine spells. The Arcane Disciple feat specifies that wisdom is used for casting. A divine oracle gains access to the Oracle domain as a class ability and uses normal casting rules for the class (subject to the rules in CD about gaining a new domain). This I agree with. I asked Cust. Serv. whether a Div. Oracle with low wisdom would lose the ability to cast domain spells if she takes the Arcane Disciple feat, though, and they said yes, much to my surprise. Apparently, their view is that the text of the feat rules takes precedence over the "Extra Domains" rules. Knowing that, I'll probably just buy scrolls of Augury and Divination and cross my fingers for a scroll of Commune someday. It looks like the easy learning advantage of Arcane Disciple isn't so great after all. EDIT: I looked back through my ARs. I've got a favor I can use to get a scroll of Commune, so I've got nothing to worry about -- except gold.
kjenks 09-22-07, 10:20 PM	My level 15 sorceress casts Commune whenever she wants -- with a Limited Wish. It's fun to have a 1 round casting time instead of 10 minutes, but I've never taken advantage of that short casting time to use it in combat.
Maesto 09-23-07, 02:28 PM	I picked up the funny spells from a meta-org library effect, which specifically stated it had the domain spells available as well.