Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Daverius 02-08-07, 02:34 AM	Hey all, I just wanted to hear people's suggestions and methods on how they buff their armor class. It would be neat to hear from players of casters, and martial class alike. I'll start it off. I play a fighter with combat expertise. I usually go in and attack normal the first round. If the bad guys deal a lot of damage, my next round I combat expertise for full and attack on my first attack and attempt a trip on the second...if the creature is trippable. If things get real nasty, I'll combat expertise for full and pull out my tower shield. I'll even combine expertise with fighting defensively, take a totall -11 on my attack roll (-5 combat expertise, -4 fighting defensivley, -2 towershield) AC 31, touch 18. (+1 full plate+9, dex+1, combat expertise+5, towershield+4, fighting defensively+2) I usually chug a potion of protection of evil. AC: 33 against evil creatures, touch ac of 20. My fighter is level 6.
copper_wyrmling 02-08-07, 02:54 AM	When she's playing "tank" and has had at least one action in combat, my L15 cleric's AC breaks down as follows: 10 (base) + 3 (Dex) + 12 armor (+4 mithral full plate, using Magic Vestment at CL16) + 5 shield (+4 buckler, again using Magic Vestment) + 2 sacred (special helmet from Secrets of Tsojcanth Core Special) + 4 deflection (precast extended shield of faith, or quickened shield of faith in emergencies) + 1 insight (dusty rose ioun stone) + 1 haste (Boots of Speed) =38 If she gets Barkskin from a party member her AC usually goes to 43 (she will offer pearls of power 2 and lesser rods of extend for this purpose, if there's a druid in the party), and if she uses Recitation as a party-buff it goes to 41 normally or 46 with Barkskin. She can fight defensively to buff it further, but that's not really worthwhile for her. At APL 14, AC in the high 30's and low 40's is certainly not unhittable, but it does mean that it's rare for more than half the attacks to hit (sometimes it's much less), and power attacking for a lot tends to lower their damage / round rather than increase it. My L6 dervish takes an approach much more like your fighter, on the unfortunate occasions where he needs to play tank (he's a mobile damage-dealer, not a meatshield, but sometimes he's the best the party has). When not dervish dancing (he only has 1/day at this stage), he tends to run in and draw AoOs, or tumble if we think the bad guys have combat reflexes or some particularly nasty attack. If he moves 40ft in a round, he gets +2 AC, and if he expertises for full and fights defensively he gets another +8. His normal AC is 20 (+6 armor for a +1 mithral breastplate, +3 Dex, and +1 for dervish), so that kicks it up to 30, with touch AC 24. Of course, it also drops his bonus to hit down to +3 before buffs (+4 Strength, +1 weapon, +1 weapon focus, +6 BAB, -4 fighting defensively, -5 expertise), so this is something I generally do when the party is in trouble and the other PCs need time to buff and heal, if I think I can't take the monsters down quickly. My sorcerer has AC 13 and doesn't care, due to rarely being in attack range ;)
gomeztoo 02-08-07, 09:05 AM	Nesalia currently: - +4 Dex - +6 armor (+2 chain shirt) - +3 shield (+1 dancing shield) - +3 natural (Dragon Diciple) - +1 insight (ioun stone) For an AC of 27 at lvl 10. Planning on ring of protection (first +1, then upgrade to +2), concidering amulet of natural armor (but may go for con or wis boost instead). I don't expect to get my AC over 30 without some party buffs such as haste.
jstorrie 02-08-07, 10:58 AM	The plan for my Bladesinger was to have around APL10: + 5 Dex + 7 Armor (+2 mithril breastplate) + 3 Dodge (Bladesinger, from Int) + 3 shield (+2 mithril buckler) with another +5 or so coming from miscellaneous wondrous items, for an expected 33ish. The loss of Alter Self takes away an easy +6, unfortunately.
Rerednaw 02-08-07, 12:01 PM	If you have the skill points, 5 ranks in tumble add another +1 if fighting defensively or +2 if full defensive to AC.
LachlarlanIII 02-08-07, 12:13 PM	In the Eberron campaign I can get a 40+ all-around (standard, touch, and flat-footed) AC all the time. The highest AC I can expect to get in LG as a front-liner before buff spells like Barkskin and Haste is around 35. 10 Base +2 Dex +11/12 Armor - +2/3 Mithral Heavy Plate +6/7 Shield - +2/3 Tower Shield +4/5 Deflection - Ring of Protection 33/36 AC - Total
Munkwunk 02-08-07, 04:34 PM	Well, my 11th level cleric breaks down as follows: 10 +13 armor (+4 heavy plate) +4 shield (+2 animated heavy shield using magic vestment) +1 insight (ioun stone) +1 deflection (ring of protection +1) =29 This is his "walking around" AC. It's not incredible, but it doesn't assume any time spent buffing (short of a single Magic Vestment which essentially lasts all day). When stacking on things like Recitation, Haste, Barkskin, etc. it can obviously go a lot higher, but that's not what I aim for; I like to have a healthy AC without having to spend time buffing. As soon as he gets some money, his ring of protection is getting a healthy increase, and he'll upgrade his armor to +5. I think I'm just going to stick with magic vestment for my sheild since it's a domain spell for him and it'll increase to +3 next level. I've found that a "walking AC" of 29 at APL 10-12 is fairly healthy. It means your opponents will need to swing well to hit you, and if they power attack too much they're not going to deal any damage. Personally, I don't want an AC that's through the roof because, if I'm the one tanking, I need to let the enemies hit me every-so-often or theyll get bored and go for a squishier target, which means I actually have to turn around and spend tiem healing someone. Just for fun, my 11th level barbarian's AC breaks down as follows: 10 +1 Dex -2 rage -2 charge -11 Shock Trooper = -4 (Oh, I can't wait until I pick up Reckless Rage at next level). His "AC" coems more in terms of having a through-the-roof Con score and a lot of HP. Clerics hate him, but he makes a very squishy target and therefore draws a LOT of aggro off of other party members. And a -4 AC isn't anything a properly-timed Potion of Displacement can't deal with.
Mattastrophic 02-08-07, 04:48 PM	I had this one scribbled down: 10 Base +6 Dexterity +6 Greater Mage Armor +6 Mithral Buckler +5 +6 Alter Self +5 Dragonskin +4 Ring of Protection +4 +3 +1 Defending Spiked Gauntlet, with Greater Magic Weapon CL12 +1 Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone +1 Boots of Speed +4 Cover behind Phantom Steed with DC 15 Ride check =AC 53 The goal was to have a large AC with no actions spend buffing. If I got to buff, though... +7 (+14 natural, -1 large, -6 Alter Self is eclipsed) Contingent Polymorph (War Troll) (free action) +1 Aerial Alacrity (swift action in round 2) =AC 61 In such a case, I still have a standard action left. My equipment would be kept via Quickened Enlarge Person. I scrapped this idea after realizing that I would need about a hundred thousand gold pieces to attain it. -Matt
dkay807 02-08-07, 04:59 PM	The trick to a high AC is to avoid going past the point of diminishing returns in each type of bonus until you can afford to. Spread it out. Animated Shields and maxed out dex on Mithral FP/BP/Chain Shirt are a must. If you can get more than +6 dex bonus, then Celestial Armor is pretty clutch. Lastly, the use of feats like Combat Expertise is nice, but not at the cost of being unable to attack effectively. Since you can substitute attack for AC with Combat Expertise, find a way to boost your attack, knowing that you can then indirectly boost your AC. I play a 15th level Spellsword: 10 Base +9 Armor (+1 Angelic Death Ward Mithral Fullplate) +3 Shield (+1 Animated Death Ward Mithral Heavy Shield) +3 Dex +1 Insight (Dusty Rose Ioun Stone) +5 Natural (Dragonskin spell - extended with pearls of power - up all day) +5 Deflection (Ring of Protection +5 - yes, that was expensive) +1 Haste (Boots of Speed) =37 Since I always have a +5 Magic Vestment on my armor and shield thanks to the party cleric with a Bead of Karma and a Bard Cohort casting Hymn of Praise in the morning, the modified AC before combat buffs becomes 45. Recitation every combat (and I worshop the same god as my cleric) makes it a 48. Granted that my AC benefits from being high level with enough gold to buy some nice items, but even at lower levels, you can make a lot out of a little by taking in small bonuses here and there and spreading it out. Don't buy a Ring of Protection +3 for 18k when you get a Shield Other cast on you, a Dusty Rose Ioun Stone for 5k and maybe a Dex Bump or Amulet of Natural Armor (I never liked those though - neck Slot is too valuable). Remember - there will always be creatures that WILL hit you. No matter what your AC is. Consider abilities that enable you to avoid being hit or targetted alltogether. Mirror Image helps me a lot when I have fight creatures like Greater Stone Golems or tricked out Giants.
Japangirl 02-08-07, 05:09 PM	My rogue is giving up on AC, at level 14 she has 28 (+5 mithril chain shirt, +3 shield, +6 dex, +1 size, +2 ring, +1 ioun stone) and is basically unmissable by most things. Instead, she is going for items like a Ring of Blinking and Cloak of Minor Displacement to reduce the chance she gets hit by just not being there. She also has Moderate Fort on her armor to reduce the chance of being hit by the PC-killer, crits. Admittedly, rogues are bad tanks, but if your focus is not to be a tank then other defensive items might be more useful than just high AC.
_m_ 02-08-07, 07:41 PM	My rogue is giving up on AC, at level 14 she has 28 (+5 mithril chain shirt, +3 shield, +6 dex, +1 size, +2 ring, +1 ioun stone) and is basically unmissable by most things. Instead, she is going for items like a Ring of Blinking and Cloak of Minor Displacement to reduce the chance she gets hit by just not being there. She also has Moderate Fort on her armor to reduce the chance of being hit by the PC-killer, crits. Admittedly, rogues are bad tanks, but if your focus is not to be a tank then other defensive items might be more useful than just high AC. i use your plan as well :D sure, at lvl 10 alvin has, oh i dunno, low 30's ac i think, with self buffs. but if he really wants to live: mirror image, blink, blur, displacement, invisibility or g/invisibility, fly, dr 10/magic & adamantine, unluck on them. but the real life savers are: a hide of potentially + 106. and flicker: 3 times per day, as an imidate action, begin flickering. which allows a short range (45 feet) dimension door (without the 'no act after landing' clause) as an imidiate action every round for 9 rounds. you try and hit me? i flicker. you shoot at me? i flicker. trap goes off? i flicker. ur 70 feet away and i want to make a touch attack? i flicker and walk. my friend jsut fell off a cliff? i laugh... and then flicker. avoidance is better than ac imo. still, with that in mind, i try not to walk around in anything less than 30 ac. oh btw... what do we do now alter self is gone down the drain?
CrystalBlue 02-08-07, 10:09 PM	Alvin really needs to stop having such high hide checks. :P You make us rangers and rogues look bad m.
dkay807 02-08-07, 10:19 PM	and flicker: 3 times per day, as an imidate action, begin flickering. which allows a short range (45 feet) dimension door (without the 'no act after landing' clause) as an imidiate action every round for 9 rounds. you try and hit me? i flicker. you shoot at me? i flicker. trap goes off? i flicker. ur 70 feet away and i want to make a touch attack? i flicker and walk. my friend jsut fell off a cliff? i laugh... and then flicker. What source is this flicker ability from? I've never heard of it.
_m_ 02-11-07, 09:53 PM	What source is this flicker ability from? I've never heard of it. Noone's heard of it. It's from tome of magic. almost no1 gets to use that book, it was core spec access :D and i cant HELP having such a high hide. it was an accident.
clannagh 02-11-07, 11:53 PM	oh btw... what do we do now alter self is gone down the drain? you either get a high level druid to barkskin you for the same natural armor more or less as you had in trog or lizzie form or you drop from 39 AC to 33 .. how sad :)
Rerednaw 02-13-07, 09:51 AM	... +9 Armor (+1 Angelic Death Ward Mithral Fullplate) +3 Shield (+1 Animated Death Ward Mithral Heavy Shield) +5 Natural (Dragonskin spell - extended with pearls of power - up all day) Since I always have a +5 Magic Vestment on my armor and I like this combo. However (don't have my books handy) aren't the +1 armor, +1 shield, +5 Dragonskin, and +5 Magic Vestment all enhancement bonuses?
jstorrie 02-13-07, 10:41 AM	Enhancement bonuses to armor become armor bonuses; enhancement bonuses to shields become shield bonuses. So those all stack.
Alpha_Nerd 02-13-07, 11:16 AM	Lets see, I haven't calculated out the AC of my Halfling Outrider yet. 10 - Base +1 - Size +2 - Dex +12 - +5 Wildwood Full Plate +6 - +5 Darkwood Buckler (lost when charging as I'll be 2-handing the lance) +5 Ring of Protection +4 Halfling Outrider AC: 40 at level 14-15 with my shield and boat tons of magic. Not too bad, although that's not too realistic of a number as my Halfling wont be reaching 15th for a while.
LachlarlanIII 02-13-07, 11:37 AM	High AC "Armor Lord" that I worked out ages ago. 10 Base +2 Dex +16 Armor - +4 Mithral Mountain Plate, Heavy Armor Optimization, GHAO +8 Shield - +4 Tower Shield 36 AC before Deflection, Dodge and other such bonuses. HAO and GHAO work on Mithral Mountain Plate because Mountain Plate remains Heavy Armor even when made of Mithral. Take 9 levels of Knight and you don't have to worry about the speed penalty either. With AC this high, Knight levels also help a character tank. Can't really call him a Tank without something to force enemies to attack his huge AC after all.
Rerednaw 02-13-07, 12:25 PM	Enhancement bonuses to armor become armor bonuses; enhancement bonuses to shields become shield bonuses. So those all stack. Spiffy!
Eric Anondson 02-13-07, 03:48 PM	I'm starting out an experimental straight fighter. By 15th level, 10: Base +9: Armor (mithral full plate +1) +3: Dex +1: Insight (dusty rose Ioun stone) +2: Deflection (ring of protection +2) +1: Haste (boots of speed) +1: Natural Armor (amulet of natural armor) ------ So 27 to start with. I'm going pretty conservative on these items and their AC value. Likely I will get higher enhancements to armor, the ring and amulet. However this character will go with Combat Expertise, Improved Combat Expertise, and Quick Staff weapon style feat. For fun, if he were to go full Improved Combat Expertise at 15th level with his quarterstaff, we'd have: 27 + 45 dodge AC = 72 AC Nifty.
LachlarlanIII 02-13-07, 03:55 PM	For fun, if he were to go full Improved Combat Expertise at 15th level with his quarterstaff, we'd have: 27 + 45 dodge AC = 72 AC Nifty. Does Quick Staff triple your dodge bonus to AC? Improved Combat Expertise would only get you +15. How did you get the other 30?
Eric Anondson 02-13-07, 03:59 PM	Does Quick Staff triple your dodge bonus to AC? Improved Combat Expertise would only get you +15. How did you get the other 30?When using Combat Expertise, Quick Staff allows you to convert 1 point of BAB for 3 points of dodge AC. From Complete Warror.
Crazy Boro 02-13-07, 04:09 PM	When using Combat Expertise, Quick Staff allows you to convert 1 point of BAB for 3 points of dodge AC. From Complete Warror. Actually, it says that when using combat expertise, you gain a dodge bonus 2 points higher than the penalty you take on attack rolls. So a +17 with improved combat expertise for 15.
ZX670 02-13-07, 04:10 PM	With the new LGCS, if you can get the money, high dex characters will be better off going this route: 10 Base +8 bracers of armor +7 shield bonus (+5 Heavy Shield, animated would be even better) +3 enhancement bonus to armor (padded armor with Magic Vestment +3, the armor bonus won't stack, but the enhancement bonus will) +7 Dex (thinking of my main character here) +3 natural (self cast barkskin, can go higher with a druid, I'm just a ranger) +5 deflection (+5 ring of prot) +1 insight (ioun stone) for a total of 44 with 1 mid-fight buff (assuming a rod of extend on the Magic Vestment) Of course, like I said, this will be some serious cash, but can be done. I think the total would be 64k for the bracers, 25k and change for the shield, 50k for the ring, and 5k for the stone.
Rerednaw 02-13-07, 04:11 PM	When using Combat Expertise, Quick Staff allows you to convert 1 point of BAB for 3 points of dodge AC. From Complete Warror. I didn't know that...I thought the bonus was total BAB penalty +2 not 3 for 1. i.e. -5 BAB = 5+2 = 7 Dodge bonus to AC. If it is 3 for 1...wow.
Eric Anondson 02-13-07, 04:16 PM	I think Crazy Boro has it right. That was a wild misreading on my part! :gah:
Rawveggie 02-13-07, 04:18 PM	Noobs all. I have one word for you: Deepwarden. It is a core PrC and allows you to apply your Con modifier to your AC instead of your Dex. Constitution raises while Raging (which means Greater Raging and Reckless Raging). Make sure to get ranks in Tumble to get the dodge bonus and a lot of the other things that have been mentioned in this thread. Deepwarden's rock for high AC. You also have the added bonus that your hit points are raising with your AC. Some friend's and I made a non-LG build character that had AC of 62 and almost 700 hp at level 21. I know that is higher then LG allows, but the concept was strong. -Raw
ZX670 02-13-07, 04:20 PM	Noobs all. I have one word for you: Deepwarden. It is a core PrC and allows you to apply your Con modifier to your AC instead of your Dex. Constitution raises while Raging (which means Greater Raging and Reckless Raging). Make sure to get ranks in Tumble to get the dodge bonus and a lot of the other things that have been mentioned in this thread. Without a lot of help, a high Con still won't help too much if you're wearing armor in that case. The errata (or FAQ or LGCS, can't remember) explicitly states that your Con bonus to AC can't exceed the Max Dex bonus of the armor you are currently in.
Daverius 02-13-07, 05:17 PM	It is a core PrC and allows you to apply your Con modifier to your AC instead of your Dex. Constitution raises while Raging (which means Greater Raging and Reckless Raging). Make sure to get ranks in Tumble to get the dodge bonus and a lot of the other things that have been mentioned in this thread. Greater raging + reckless raging will give you a +8 con bonus, which will grant you a +4 AC bonus...however reckless rage + greater rage will grant you a -4 penalty to AC...so they cancel out. Lots of hitpoints though.
Rawveggie 02-13-07, 05:28 PM	Without a lot of help, a high Con still won't help too much if you're wearing armor in that case. The errata (or FAQ or LGCS, can't remember) explicitly states that your Con bonus to AC can't exceed the Max Dex bonus of the armor you are currently in. Good point. Though unless you are going for an armorless build, armor normally restricts Dex bonus. I figure that gaining the ability to rage, which only requires in levels of Barbarian, which has HP anyway, would be a good thing. Technically it's not "costing" anything. -Raw
Rawveggie 02-13-07, 05:29 PM	Greater raging + reckless raging will give you a +8 con bonus, which will grant you a +4 AC bonus...however reckless rage + greater rage will grant you a -4 penalty to AC...so they cancel out. I just realized that. Drop the Reckless Rage and you're coming out 1 AC ahead. Though the extra dmg and hps should help most tanks. -Raw
clannagh 02-13-07, 05:30 PM	you can always add a monks belt for another +1 AC
LachlarlanIII 02-13-07, 05:33 PM	you can always add a monks belt for another +1 AC And give up a Str belt. ;)
ZX670 02-13-07, 05:37 PM	Good point. Though unless you are going for an armorless build, armor normally restricts Dex bonus. I figure that gaining the ability to rage, which only requires in levels of Barbarian, which has HP anyway, would be a good thing. Technically it's not "costing" anything. -Raw Yeah, for a non-dex fighter, it is definitely a route to consider. Only problem is that you almost need to go either Fighter or Ranger to obtain the minimal use feats to go into it at an early level. As with my armorless Dex AC build above, it could easily be done with Con on a Deepwarden.
clannagh 02-13-07, 05:39 PM	And give up a Str belt. ;) well there are strength bracers about on AR's I never said it was SENSIBLE :) ... but if you were trying to build the theoretically highest possible AC LG legal character a monk's belt will probably slip in there as useful.
LachlarlanIII 02-13-07, 05:46 PM	A long while back a friend and I came up with a build that had an AC so high even a god might have trouble hitting them if they didn't auto-hit. It was around 70, 74 against giants, and not LG legal at all :D It was posted on the old BK website for a while.... I wish someone had saved that. :(
Rawveggie 02-13-07, 06:05 PM	Oh, I just realized that with my Deepwarden build, you could go Bear Warrior 5th and become a Brown bear for a +8 bonus to your con. The downside, of course, is that your armor will meld into your form and become useless. Hmm, I'll have to keep working on this in order to get it to be viable. -Raw
ZX670 02-13-07, 06:37 PM	With the new LGCS, if you can get the money, high dex characters will be better off going this route: 10 Base +8 bracers of armor +7 shield bonus (+5 Heavy Shield, animated would be even better) +3 enhancement bonus to armor (padded armor with Magic Vestment +3, the armor bonus won't stack, but the enhancement bonus will) +7 Dex (thinking of my main character here) +3 natural (self cast barkskin, can go higher with a druid, I'm just a ranger) +5 deflection (+5 ring of prot) +1 insight (ioun stone) Wow, you guys talking about the monk's belt made me think about adding a level of Monk in here for a +4 AC bonus from Wis (this is off of my current build on my ranger), and with a Monk's Belt, that would be another +1, so the AC would be 49. 46 Self Buffed and 43 standing.
Alpha_Nerd 02-13-07, 06:44 PM	Druid 5/Deepwarden 2/Nature's Warrior 5/Monk 1/Warshaper 2. Buy a 16 CON and 18 WIS, bump CON at every level. Get a +5 Wild Tower Shield and +5 Wild Dragonhide Fullplate, +2 Wisdom Ioun Stone, +6 Amulet of Health (You put the last 2 on after you wild shape. Shift into a Dire Boar 10 base 14 From Fullplate 9 From Tower Shield 5 From Wisdom 10 From Constitution (17+ 3 stat bumps + 6 amulet + 4 warshaper = 30) (I've been told inherent bonuses stay with you through wild shape, if not bump wisdom for almost same effect) 5 from Nature's Warrior 6 from Dire Boar 5 from Barkskin 5 from Shield of Faith (need a cleric buddy) -1 size For a Grand Total of: AC 68... Oh god! What have I done?
ZX670 02-13-07, 06:59 PM	Druid 5/Deepwarden 2/Nature's Warrior 5/Monk 1/Warshaper 2. Buy a 16 CON and 18 WIS, bump CON at every level. Get a +5 Wild Tower Shield and +5 Wild Dragonhide Fullplate, +2 Wisdom Ioun Stone, +6 Amulet of Health (You put the last 2 on after you wild shape. Shift into a Dire Boar 10 base 14 From Fullplate 9 From Tower Shield 5 From Wisdom 10 From Constitution (17+ 3 stat bumps + 6 amulet + 4 warshaper = 30) (I've been told inherent bonuses stay with you through wild shape, if not bump wisdom for almost same effect) 5 from Nature's Warrior 6 from Dire Boar 5 from Barkskin 5 from Shield of Faith (need a cleric buddy) -1 size Caster level wouldn't be high enough for a +5 barkskin, you wouldn't get your Wis bonus to AC as, with Wild armor on, even when Wildshaped you would effectively be wearing armor, and the Max Dex bonus on Dragonhide Fullplate is +1, so all that Con would only yield you 1 AC. So subtract 16 (assuming taking Practiced Spellcaster for druid caster level) for a 52.
Alpha_Nerd 02-13-07, 07:03 PM	It says in the wild definition that you "preserve the armor bonus" It is essentially like you are wearing bracers of armor +14. hmm, I did the Math wrong. You only get an 11th level caster which gives you Barkskin +4.
ZX670 02-13-07, 07:07 PM	It says in the wild definition that you "preserve the armor bonus" It is essentially like you are wearing bracers of armor +14. hmm, I did the Math wrong. You only get an 11th level caster which gives you Barkskin +4. I'm sure there's something somewhere that says you consider Wild armor when Wildshaped as wearing armor. Perhaps not, though. And how did you get +11? A 5 druid with Practiced Spellcaster would be 9, the ioun stone would be 10. What else you got in there?
Crazy Boro 02-13-07, 07:11 PM	And how did you get +11? A 5 druid with Practiced Spellcaster would be 9, the ioun stone would be 10. What else you got in there? Nature's Warrior gives +1 spellcasting at 2nd and 4th levels.
ZX670 02-13-07, 07:17 PM	Nature's Warrior gives +1 spellcasting at 2nd and 4th levels. There ya go. I haven't looked at that PrC in forever :(
Alpha_Nerd 02-13-07, 07:19 PM	oh, with the ioun stone you hit 12th. Nature's warrior adds 2 druid levels. And yes, I know it's stupid, but by the word of the rules the only part of the armor you preserve is the bonus, so you're considered unarmored. I'm not sure about shields though, as wild armor says "armor bonus" and shields are a "shield Bonus"
ZX670 02-13-07, 07:21 PM	Unfortunately, my druid has never had access to Wild in all his 10 levels so I've never actually looked at it that close. You may well be right.
bhale187 02-13-07, 07:27 PM	Oh, I just realized that with my Deepwarden build, you could go Bear Warrior 5th and become a Brown bear for a +8 bonus to your con. The downside, of course, is that your armor will meld into your form and become useless. Hmm, I'll have to keep working on this in order to get it to be viable. -Raw I would rather go the 'opposite' route on the bear warrior, take karmic strike and drop your ac, let them get a hit on you, but you get a free AoO on them. Mix it with 2 levels of warshaper and you get immune to crits, damage as if one size larger (huge at 5 bear warrior) along with +20 STR, +2 dex, and +12 CON.........Nasty bugger.
clannagh 02-13-07, 07:40 PM	Druid 5/Deepwarden 2/Nature's Warrior 5/Monk 1/Warshaper 2. Buy a 16 CON and 18 WIS, bump CON at every level. Get a +5 Wild Tower Shield and +5 Wild Dragonhide Fullplate, +2 Wisdom Ioun Stone, +6 Amulet of Health (You put the last 2 on after you wild shape. Shift into a Dire Boar 10 base 14 From Fullplate 9 From Tower Shield 5 From Wisdom 10 From Constitution (17+ 3 stat bumps + 6 amulet + 4 warshaper = 30) (I've been told inherent bonuses stay with you through wild shape, if not bump wisdom for almost same effect) 5 from Nature's Warrior 6 from Dire Boar 5 from Barkskin 5 from Shield of Faith (need a cleric buddy) -1 size For a Grand Total of: AC 68... Oh god! What have I done? I think there is an issue with the tower shield, full plate and the 10 from CON as deepwarden CON is limited by armor penalties same as DEX is. Nevertheless assuming the rest of the figures had been correct you could make that 71 by having an AC ioun stone as well as the wisdom one, by taking the feat that adds one to any heavy armor AC and wearing a monks belt. Also .. I see no reason why an ioun stone needs to be removed while wildshaping .. its not "worn" it just whizzes around you like an annoying house fly.
clannagh 02-13-07, 07:44 PM	Wow, you guys talking about the monk's belt made me think about adding a level of Monk in here for a +4 AC bonus from Wis (this is off of my current build on my ranger), and with a Monk's Belt, that would be another +1, so the AC would be 49. 46 Self Buffed and 43 standing. That trick works really well for sorcerors (or sorceror spellswords) as they can take Ascetic Mage and add there sorceror and monk levels together for AC bonus.
JJeff 02-13-07, 09:57 PM	Enhancement bonuses to armor become armor bonuses; enhancement bonuses to shields become shield bonuses. So those all stack. Not exactally, stack, it's more like Overlap. But it works. You Magic vestment (CL20) a normal shield - becomes +5 shield You Magic vestment (CL20) a +1 shield - Still becomes +5 shield..
rockondon 02-13-07, 11:55 PM	I'm pretty sure you can't recieve the monk's wisdom bonus to AC while benefitting from armor or shield bonuses.
clannagh 02-14-07, 12:17 AM	I'm pretty sure you can't recieve the monk's wisdom bonus to AC while benefitting from armor or shield bonuses. thats a very good point .. you have to be unarmored
Alpha_Nerd 02-14-07, 09:59 AM	For all intents and purposes you are unarmored. However, the Wild enchantment lets you preserve your armor bonus. This means though if you had +1 Light Fortification Wild Dragonhide Fullplate and you Wild Shaped, you would not keep the benefit of Light Fortification as you are not wearing the armor, you are simply preserving the Armor Bonus. Think of it like Bracers of Armor. It's a way to get an armor bonus without considered Armored.
ZX670 02-14-07, 11:00 AM	For all intents and purposes you are unarmored. However, the Wild enchantment lets you preserve your armor bonus. This means though if you had +1 Light Fortification Wild Dragonhide Fullplate and you Wild Shaped, you would not keep the benefit of Light Fortification as you are not wearing the armor, you are simply preserving the Armor Bonus. Think of it like Bracers of Armor. It's a way to get an armor bonus without considered Armored. I wasn't able to look this up last night, but if you are correct, that's an idea for a really good build you have there. Minus the monk Wis bonus to AC someone mentioned above. Still, if that's the case with the monk's AC bonus, I think the Max Dex bonus would apply too. Still, I don't know how this is handled as I've never run into it, so it could be either way.
Alpha_Nerd 02-14-07, 12:10 PM	It is my opinion that I can get the Monk Wisdom bonus to my AC, and until I hear an authoritative "no" I will rule it that way and hope that my DM rules it that way. The only part of the AC in that build that I'm not sure about is the Tower Shield. The Wild enhancement says it can preserve the armor bonus, but shield don't have an armor bonus, they have a shield bonus, although there would be no reason to put wild on a shield and I've seen access to wild shields, so I assume it works. Also, I know multiple size increases do not stack, but if I Wild Shape into a large creature, can I reduce animal myself to counteract it? EDIT: Here's my feat selection by the way 1 Endurance 3 Power Attack 6 Improved Bullrush 9 Shock Trooper 12 Practiced Spellcaster 15 Improved Natural Attack I figure if I get a 70 AC, I can Heedless charge for 12 and not worry about it too much.
LachlarlanIII 02-14-07, 12:49 PM	How about: Dwarf Str 10, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 6 1: Monk 1 - Dodge 2: Monk 2 3: Monk 3 - Mobility 4: Monk 4 - Dex 16 5: Monk 5 6: Monk 6 - Weapon Finesse 7: Monk 7 8: Monk 8 - Dex 17 9: Duelist 1 - Endurance 10: Duelist 2 11: Duelist 3 12: Duelist 4 - Toughness 13: Duelist 5 14: Dwarven Defender 1 15: Dwarven Defender 2 - Combat Expertise Base 10 Stat Bonuses +8 Dexterity (Includes +6 Gloves, Reduce Person Spell) +5 Intelligence (Includes +6 Headband) +5 Wisdom (Includes +6 Periapt) Class Features +2 Monk AC Bonus (Includes Level Boost from Monk's Belt) +1 Dodge - Dwarven Defender AC Bonus +4 Dodge - Defensive Stance from Dwarven Defender Feats +1 Dodge - Dodge Feat +5 Dodge - Combat Expertise Feat Items +1 Insight - Dusty Rose Ioun Stone +8 Armor - Bracers of Armor +8 +5 Deflection - Ring of Protection +5 Spells +5 Natural - Barkskin Spell from Vibrant Purple Ioun Stone +4 Shield - Shield Spell from Vibrant Purple Ioun Stone +3 Luck - Recitation Spell +1 Size - Reduce Person Spell Total 68 AC, 72 vs Giants. Very expensive set-up though. This is a very close LG legal approximation to the build I was talking about earlier.
bhale187 02-14-07, 03:49 PM	take a look at this *click* (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=791608)
Eric_Pittsburgh 03-12-07, 03:08 PM	With the new LGCS, if you can get the money, high dex characters will be better off going this route: 10 Base +8 bracers of armor +7 shield bonus (+5 Heavy Shield, animated would be even better) +3 enhancement bonus to armor (padded armor with Magic Vestment +3, the armor bonus won't stack, but the enhancement bonus will) +7 Dex (thinking of my main character here) +3 natural (self cast barkskin, can go higher with a druid, I'm just a ranger) +5 deflection (+5 ring of prot) +1 insight (ioun stone) for a total of 44 with 1 mid-fight buff (assuming a rod of extend on the Magic Vestment) Of course, like I said, this will be some serious cash, but can be done. I think the total would be 64k for the bracers, 25k and change for the shield, 50k for the ring, and 5k for the stone. Um, no. The Padded Armor +3 would then have an Armor Bonus of +4. The enhancement bonus on armor goes to that piece of armor, not directly to your AC. Now Padded Armor +1 with Heavy Fortification or Death Ward would still apply it's special ability. Eric Pittsburgh
Alpha_Nerd 03-12-07, 03:41 PM	Just realized my Druid build is illegal :( You need BAB 5 for Deepwarden and 4 for Nature's warrior so the optimal build would be Druid 6/Warshaper 2/Deepwarden 2/Nature's Warrior 5. Your AC is still ridiculously high, but no Wisdom to AC :(
Lomiat 03-12-07, 04:37 PM	I've been rethinking my Red Hand of Doom PC a bit since the Alter Self errata drastically changed his build. However, if I can get some key access at some point between now and 12th level, he could end up with AC 40+ by 12th. Arcane Trickster/Unseen Seer Base 10 DEX +8 Greater Mage Armor +6 +5 Mithril Buckler +6 Dragonskin +5 Ring of Protection +3 Boots of Speed +1 Combat Expertise +5 AC 44 Could also go for Nightstalker's Transformation to gain a +3 Luck bonus and bump AC up to 47 (Touch 30, Flat-footed 33). I probably *won't* build him this way, but it's now nagging at me as a possibility.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-12-07, 04:52 PM	Just realized my Druid build is illegal :( You need BAB 5 for Deepwarden and 4 for Nature's warrior so the optimal build would be Druid 6/Warshaper 2/Deepwarden 2/Nature's Warrior 5. Your AC is still ridiculously high, but no Wisdom to AC :( could drop one level of nature's warrior for monk. Lose one nature's armament and 1 ac from armor of croc, but gain wis to AC....
AOSOL 03-13-07, 10:35 AM	I'm a power dex build so it goes alittle something like this: 10 base 13 dex (while in elven rage and yes I have a +5 manual) 8 armor (3rd pearl of power to be greater mage armored from my force mage) 1 ioun stone (must own) 3 deflection 5 shield 1-15 dodge 1-4 common spells 42-59 AC so my AC bounces like a bunny in combat
Timlagor 03-13-07, 04:44 PM	AOSOL: where's the Dodge coming from?
dkay807 03-13-07, 06:20 PM	I'm a power dex build so it goes alittle something like this: 10 base 13 dex (while in elven rage and yes I have a +5 manual) 8 armor (3rd pearl of power to be greater mage armored from my force mage) 1 ioun stone (must own) 3 deflection 5 shield 1-15 dodge 1-4 common spells 42-59 AC so my AC bounces like a bunny in combat This smells like... poo to me. A +5 manual in LG? I doubt it.
Mattastrophic 03-13-07, 08:44 PM	This smells like... poo to me. A +5 manual in LG? I doubt it. I can testify that yes, it is possible. -Matt
Jay_Ibero_911 03-13-07, 08:51 PM	I can testify that yes, it is possible. -Matt POssible maybe....but the +5 manual costs just over half of what a PC will earn by the time he hits 16th level on average...barring any of those crazy discount favors...
Dempster 03-13-07, 09:53 PM	I currently have a halfling cleric 5 + 9 (Full plate +1) + 4 ( Heavy steel shield +2) + 1 ( Ring pro +1) +1 ( Dex) + 1 ( Amulet nat armor +1) +1 ( size ) AC 27 at 5th level is pretty awsome. With a haste and a Shield of faith I am at AC 29 and am very hard to hit. Now that you can craft aromor and shields up to (+5) I plan to take craft magical arms and armor at 6th level and spend some cash to seriously armor up.
Timlagor 03-14-07, 08:12 PM	Could someone please explain where the 15 Dodge Bonus is coming from?
Lomiat 03-14-07, 08:15 PM	Could someone please explain where the 15 Dodge Bonus is coming from? Combat Expertise and Improved Combat Expertise. Sacrifice up to 15 to hit for up to 15 Dodge bonus to AC.
JamesMaissen 03-14-07, 08:18 PM	I've been rethinking my Red Hand of Doom PC a bit since the Alter Self errata drastically changed his build. However, if I can get some key access at some point between now and 12th level, he could end up with AC 40+ by 12th. Arcane Trickster/Unseen Seer Base 10 DEX +8 Greater Mage Armor +6 +5 Mithril Buckler +6 Dragonskin +5 Ring of Protection +3 Boots of Speed +1 Combat Expertise +5 AC 44 Why not fight defensively on top of that for another +2 (+3 with 5 ranks in tumble)? -James
clannagh 03-14-07, 09:26 PM	I'm a power dex build so it goes alittle something like this: 10 base 13 dex (while in elven rage and yes I have a +5 manual) 8 armor (3rd pearl of power to be greater mage armored from my force mage) 1 ioun stone (must own) 3 deflection 5 shield 1-15 dodge 1-4 common spells 42-59 AC so my AC bounces like a bunny in combat i thought greater mage armor was +6 ?? not to matter ... pretty good considering your not using natural armor or fighting defensively (+3 with 5 tumble ranks)
Eric Anondson 03-14-07, 09:49 PM	i thought greater mage armor was +6 ??It is, but I think AOSOL was refering to an (at least) 11th-level cohort argent savant casting greater mage armor... which would bump it to an AC +8 value.
Maesto 03-15-07, 12:22 AM	The best I saw was 102 whilst fighting defensively at level 20 with LG legal options, but it was level 20. You can get a whole lot of stuff stacking up in a variety of ways. Start with size small, and get as many stats adding to your AC as you possibly can. Dex is a given, a monk's belt gives you a +1 + wis, and duellist levels gave you silliness. Combat expertise + imp combat expertise, plus fighting defensively, plus... etc. Duellist 7 was the important point, from memory. It turned out that armour actually hindered your efforts; greater mage armour or +8 bracers were much better.
Gelth 03-21-07, 02:27 PM	My actual current build of a straight-class Dwarven Fighter looks like this at 10th level (some decisions are the way they are because of lack of access, for example to Rings of Protection higher than +1. Expect that to change.) Base: 10 Armor Bonus +12 (+2 Full Plate with Heavy Armor Optimization and Improved Heavy Armor Optimization) Shield Bonus +6 (+2 Tower Shield) Dex Modifier +1 Deflection Bonus +1 (Ring of Protection) Optional or circumstantial bonuses: Fighting Defensively +2 Full Defense +4 Taking cover behind tower shield +infinite (I've only ever used this to stand up while threatened) Combat Expertise +5 Dodge +1 (or +4 with Titan Fighting against anything Large+) Mobility +4 Racial versus Giants +4 So, I start at 30 and go up, sometimes way up if I get buffs. It's rare that I actually use the bonuses that require me to take a penalty to hit, as I'm already getting a -2 from the shield, which is essentially a heavy shield that adds Combat Expertise for 2 at all times, but allows the cover option. I can pretty easily break AC 40 against most opponents without outside help. The build isn't perfect by any means, but it is an actual organic LG build that I've built up over time with little planning. Retraining will allow me to tweak a few things, which is nice. --Penn, Ket Triad
jstorrie 03-21-07, 04:55 PM	If you don't mind the lack of +4/+6 Constitution, and can get access to a Belt of Dwarvenkind, you can wear an Amulet of Natural armor for a cheap boost. Some of the 'Cloak of the...' wondrous items offer natural armor bonuses, too.
AOSOL 03-22-07, 11:29 AM	Could someone please explain where the 15 Dodge Bonus is coming from? That comes from Improved combat expertise. I sack my BAB of 14 and the dodge feat. dodge bonus stack. improved combat expertise: +14 dodge dodge feat: +1 dodge dodge bonus stack A bonus to Armor Class (and sometimes Reflex saves) resulting from physical skill at avoiding blows and other ill effects. Dodge bonuses are never granted by spells or magic items. Any situation or effect (except wearing armor) that negates a character's Dexterity bonus also negates any dodge bonuses the character may have (for instance, you lose any dodge bonuses to AC when you're flat-footed). Dodge bonuses stack with all other bonuses to AC, even other dodge bonuses. Dodge bonuses apply against touch attacks. Source: PHB No excuses, play like a champion.