Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Llewelyn 04-16-07, 01:29 PM	I've recently been working on a new character who's a monk that's going to end up a DD. The problem is due to those requirements my stat spread is something like: Str 14 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 14 Cha 10 With the first bump at 4 going into Charisma to let me cast level 1 spells.(Hello, Shield and Enlarge) The problem is that this leaves me stuck at 13 AC at first level, and I likely won't be getting enough money for AC-boosting equipment until at least level 2. For reference the class progression I'm looking at is: Monk 2, Fighter 2, Sorcerer 1, then on to DD. Initial feats are Improved Grapple and Stunning Fist. Race(due to concept) has to be an elf variant, or half-elf. Right now I have her statted as a half-elf, since even with the stat shifting for the other available elves the stats end up about the same. Is this survivable until I can afford def-boosting stuff? Am I going to be in for a world of pain? Is there any way to boost the AC higher before items without compromising my later Flurry/Claw/Claw/Bite routine's effectiveness? Should I perhaps try Dex 14/Con 12? (I WILL be taking Improved Toughness as my Fighter 2 bonus feat either way.) I'm too used to playing Dex Fighters when it comes to melee to objectively tell if the AC is too low or not.
trollbill 04-16-07, 01:38 PM	Potions of Mage Armor are your friend. If you plan on grappling a lot, your AC doesn't matter as much in a grapple. Strength becomes more important.
Ralis 04-16-07, 01:53 PM	I hate to say it, but I don't see this as a good build at all. Not much more I can say and this is only my opinion
Mommy was an Orc 04-16-07, 04:41 PM	I think one of the things to look at are your needs and your wants. You need a high str/dex/con to be effective in melee. You need a 12 Charisma to cast spells from being a Sorcerer. You don't actually really need a high Wisdom or for that matter Intelligence. If you go Wood Elf, you could have the following stats: Str 17, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 12 You have +3 to AC from stats, just as your current build. But now you're someone with an 18 Str at 4th level. Which means when you're holding a Guisarme, you should expect to wallop people with your Combat Reflexes. You do lose a skill point per level, but you have enough to get into DD at 6th. I also wouldn't pick Shield/Enlarge Person - those are spells that have a lot of use in the short term, but you're not going to have time to cast both of them in a single combat usually. I'd go for Fist of Stone(add +3 to your grapple checks...) and either Critical Strike or Blades of Flame. Wands of Enlarge Person are now only 750 gp and open access in any case...scrolls of Shield are 25 gp and easy enough to cast.
Llewelyn 04-16-07, 04:45 PM	Full details currently: Half-elf Str 14 Dex 12 Con 14 Wis 14 Int 12 Cha 10 1 Monk: Improved Grapple, Stunning Fist 2 Monk: Combat Reflexes, Evasion 3 Fighter: Versatile Unarmed Strike(PHB2), Power Attack 4 Fighter: Improved Toughness(CW), Cha +1 5 Sorcerer: Spells(Shield, Enlarge Person) 6 DD: Practiced Spellcaster(Sorc)(CAr), AC+1 7 DD: Str+2, Claw/Claw/Bite 8 DD: Breath(2d8) 9 DD: Multiattack, Str+2, AC+2 10 DD: Blindsense 30ft 11 DD: Con+2 12 DD: Improved Natural Attack(Claws or Unarmed Strike), Breath(4d8), AC+3 13 DD: Int+2 14 DD: Wings 15 DD: Improved Multiattack, Half-dragon template I'll listen to any advice, but the core concept is a elven(or half-elven) monk DD, using the flurry/claw/claw/bite routine. It has to go all the way to full half-dragon by level 15 too. So, within those constraints, what can I do to improve the build? Sorcerer is the best "flavor" fit I've seen for meeting the DD reqs, as DD's representing awakening her latent draconic blood. *edit* Eep, Ninja'd! Well, one question from the previous post so far is with 10 Int, how do I learn Draconic? I don't get it as Automatic, which means I'd need a +1 Int to get it as a bonus language. Or should I toss 2 skill points away to learn it? ALso, why 12 Charisma... I'll only ever be casting level 1 spells, unless it's to avoid wasting a point somewhere on an odd number? (And get the bump to the skills)
Mommy was an Orc 04-16-07, 05:27 PM	Eep, Ninja'd! Well, one question from the previous post so far is with 10 Int, how do I learn Draconic? I don't get it as Automatic, which means I'd need a +1 Int to get it as a bonus language. Or should I toss 2 skill points away to learn it? ALso, why 12 Charisma... I'll only ever be casting level 1 spells, unless it's to avoid wasting a point somewhere on an odd number? (And get the bump to the skills) Toss the 2 skill points onto a language. 12 Charisma means you get a bonus 1st level spell - you want all the critical strikes/blades of flames/fist of stones you can get. And it adds +1 to all the Charisma skills. Can't hurt. Not to mention, you don't particularly need Practiced Spellcaster for those spells - the only reason I'd get PS is if you also pick up CWI to craft stat items with scrolls of Bull's Strength, etc... I don't think Versatile Unarmed Strike is a very good feat for you or for that matter Improved Toughness - your problem is that you're not going to be a Monk, you're a grappler with Monk levels.
solbergb 04-16-07, 05:48 PM	I have a lot of low armor class characters. However they tend to have these things in common. 1. Good saves and high mobility (ie, decent non-AC defenses) 2. Strong offense - either in the form of abilities that limit incoming attacks (grapple and trip in low levels, or battlefield control spells) or just the ability to put a lot of hurt in hitpoint damage on enemies for their APL. This character has the first, but not the second. You can't stand in battle long enough to chip away with the damage you do (I have high AC moderate damage characters too, they work, but differently) and you can't destroy your enemy easily, and your strength is too low for the monk tactical feats to work as well as they did for my monk (who was con 14, 12 AC level 1-4, ac13 at level 5-9, con 16 at level 8+, ac14 from level 10-12 and ac15/con18 in levels 13-14). That said, you can help yourself a lot by spending for the mage armor scrolls/potions you need to get a quick boost to AC in the low levels, even when no friendly arcane is around. After APL6 or so, if there is an arcane at the table, you'll get mage armor. Around about APL10+, sometimes even greater mage armor. If you DO spend precious gold on AC, don't spend it on bracers of defense. If you spend your feats on defense you may find yourself with anemic offense. As a general rule, even with low AC monks are pretty durable and can get themselves out of anything they get into without needing rescue. Spending feats on offense is usually more helpful, as the class itself does very little by itself to help in that arena.
Llewelyn 04-16-07, 08:30 PM	Looking at this with the wood elf statblock above, a few more questions come to mind. I'd presumably drop the Stunning Fist and take Improved Grapple as the bonus feat, with that Wisdom. Dropping the Versatile and Practiced(which I was mostly grabbing for increased duration) gives me 3 open feat slots. Earth's Embrace - I could take this at first level. Is the +4 to hit me worth the extra damage, especially with my AC? Clever Wrestling - Mostly defensive but I haven't seen many grappling-oriented feats. Worth it to help in escaping? Close Quarters Combat - see Clever Wrestling. Dodge/Mobility - Would help my AC when moving around but I'm planning on bumping Tumble anyways... *edit* Just remembered this would also give me access to Elusive Target. Potentially fun, yes? Weapon Focus - WF(Grapple) would help with grappling a little, but not with the natural attacks or unarmed strike.. and WF(unarmed strike) would only boost the strike, not the natural attacks later or the grapple. Deadly Defense - Seems like a variable Power Attack that gives an AC boost. Wouldn't be able to use it while grappling, but in regular combat would it help more than Power Attack? Imp Toughness - I still really want to keep the HP buffer (especially with only a 12 Con) from what I've heard, and being stuck with the AC I am. I might swap this and Power Attack in the order I take them, depending. Armor - At this point all I'd lose for using armor would be the flurry. If I'm going to be attacking within a grapple, I'll be taking a -4 to my attacks already(if I'm reading Grapple right), before the flurry penalty if I try to flurry. Once I get to the fighter levels and beyond, would it be more worth it to wear (spiked) armor of some sort, rather than flurry? Higher APL grappling - How hard does this tend to be? I haven't heard good things, which is why I was looking at focusing more on damage at the higher end. And any other feats I've overlooked that could be useful?
King Kashue 04-17-07, 12:33 AM	You need a 12 Charisma to cast spells from being a Sorcerer. 10+spell level = 11. Though 12 will get you 4 spells per day instead of three. And another nice Sorc spell is Master's Touch, for those times you can't grapple. At least with master's touch you can whip out some crazy exotic weapon and go to town :D Edit: Doh, you covered the ability score issue...
King Kashue 04-17-07, 12:53 AM	Looking at this with the wood elf statblock above, a few more questions come to mind. This is coming from grappler experience with my Bear Warrior and thinking on what you're talking about from a primary grappler perspective. I'd presumably drop the Stunning Fist and take Improved Grapple as the bonus feat, with that Wisdom. Yes, Imp Grapple is obviously essential... Dropping the Versatile and Practiced(which I was mostly grabbing for increased duration) gives me 3 open feat slots. Yes again, both useless to you... Earth's Embrace - I could take this at first level. Is the +4 to hit me worth the extra damage, especially with my AC? Not great, it's only 6.5 extra damage (no str bonus), and only when you pin. A feat is not worth 6.5 damage per round. Clever Wrestling - Mostly defensive but I haven't seen many grappling-oriented feats. Worth it to help in escaping? Worthless ten times over. I had to take it to get Reaping Mauler (which I needed to get Imp Grapple with a 10 Dex) but it's crap. If it was on all grapple checks, it'd be a nice little feat. Close Quarters Combat - see Clever Wrestling. Worthless again. Your character is looking to get into grapples, not prevent them. Dodge/Mobility - Would help my AC when moving around but I'm planning on bumping Tumble anyways... *edit* Just remembered this would also give me access to Elusive Target. Potentially fun, yes? Again, this isn't a grappler feat. Mobility is useful primary to let you use the "Missed Me" campaign card (Seriously, both my whirlwinder and my grappler have mobility and that's the best thing about it) Weapon Focus - WF(Grapple) would help with grappling a little, but not with the natural attacks or unarmed strike.. and WF(unarmed strike) would only boost the strike, not the natural attacks later or the grapple. Only if you don't have other things to choose. The point is always nice though, 5% better chance on the grapple. Deadly Defense - Seems like a variable Power Attack that gives an AC boost. Wouldn't be able to use it while grappling, but in regular combat would it help more than Power Attack? Again, you've got to decide what you're doing featwise, like Elusive target and close-quarters fighting, taking a feat "for the times I don't get to fight the way I want" is counter-intuitive. Imp Toughness - I still really want to keep the HP buffer (especially with only a 12 Con) from what I've heard, and being stuck with the AC I am. I might swap this and Power Attack in the order I take them, depending. You can never have too many hit points, always a solid choice. Armor - At this point all I'd lose for using armor would be the flurry. If I'm going to be attacking within a grapple, I'll be taking a -4 to my attacks already(if I'm reading Grapple right), before the flurry penalty if I try to flurry. Once I get to the fighter levels and beyond, would it be more worth it to wear (spiked) armor of some sort, rather than flurry? Generally, in a grapple, the tactic is to establish and then maintain the pin, since being pinned is such a huge disadvantage. Since you're a monk, and monks are dodgy, you can actually include grapple checks as part of a flurry (per the FAQ), so to my mind, you're looking at a "six one way, half a dozen the other" sort of thing... Higher APL grappling - How hard does this tend to be? I haven't heard good things, which is why I was looking at focusing more on damage at the higher end. It can be rather hard... To give you an idea, my Bear Warrior is 12th, has a +31 grapple check, and he lost two grapples yesterday. :D First of all, you can't grapple anything two or more sizes larger than you, so Huge and Larger are out (without an Enlarge Person). Second, there are monsters that make bad things happen when you grapple (Barbed Devils, etc.) third, there are things that grappling just isn't a good idea on (Constructs, oozes, etc). That said, it's an incredibly effective tactic when you can use it, and the build you're looking at is still useful when you can't grapple. Using an exotic two handed weapon (say, great falchion) with master's touch, you're doing something like 2d6+14, with the 18-20 crit range, power attacking to add say 6, and getting your secondary bite on top of your sequence...That's a solid fighter in any fight you can't grapple...
haferka 04-17-07, 01:21 AM	There was a Feat published in the newest Dragon Magazine.. Beast Strike.. or something like that.. Try to get a SM for access... Basicly.. add your claw & Unarmed Strike damage together for Unarmed Strikes... Not the best feat.. but better than Improved natrual Attack... As a side benifit.. that makes your unarmed strikes deal bludgeoning & slashing damage... although that is not spelled out in the feat description...
King Kashue 04-17-07, 01:40 AM	As a side benifit.. that makes your unarmed strikes deal bludgeoning & slashing damage... although that is not spelled out in the feat description... Claws already do piercing and slashing, so why would it only add the slashing portion? :confused:
haferka 04-17-07, 07:21 AM	Claws already do piercing and slashing, so why would it only add the slashing portion? :confused: My bad.. you are correct.. it would deal bludgeoning/piercing and slashing... I think thats MUCH better than the VERSATILE strike feat that lets you choose a single form of damage...
LachlarlanIII 04-17-07, 10:48 AM	Why not Beguiler instead of Sorcerer? You could dump Charisma if you took Beguiler instead.
Mommy was an Orc 04-17-07, 11:06 AM	Why not Beguiler instead of Sorcerer? You could dump Charisma if you took Beguiler instead. With the exception of Mage Armor, 1st level Beguiler spells aren't all that useful long-term. Even that one isn't that great.
Llewelyn 04-17-07, 03:22 PM	Beast Strike sounds neat... how exactly do SMs work? Are they solo or is it still a normal party mod? (assuming I was able to get one for it) And what are the chances for it getting put in a future regular book(and allowed) do you think? As it'll be a while before I could take it anyways... Second, would EWP in the scorpion claws item from Sandstorm that gives boosts to grapple(I don't have access to my books at the moment) be a worthwhile feat investment? I would lose the extra grapple check from flurrying though since I don't think it's a special monk weapon. I would train out of it later perhaps too, once I get Master's Touch.
haferka 04-18-07, 12:19 AM	Beast Strike sounds neat... how exactly do SMs work? Are they solo or is it still a normal party mod? (assuming I was able to get one for it) And what are the chances for it getting put in a future regular book(and allowed) do you think? As it'll be a while before I could take it anyways... Second, would EWP in the scorpion claws item from Sandstorm that gives boosts to grapple(I don't have access to my books at the moment) be a worthwhile feat investment? I would lose the extra grapple check from flurrying though since I don't think it's a special monk weapon. I would train out of it later perhaps too, once I get Master's Touch. SM is something you have to contact your local Triad about.. they will tell you if your access request is acceptable.. and what to do next.. but I would get a "ingame" plot hook ready that way it makes it easier for them to justify handing out this feat/spell/class etc.. Example: I want the PH2 Alt class ability (Shapeshift).. so I make the character a member of the local druid metaorg that is know for spending AS MUCH TIME AS POSSIBLE in animal form. I want the Races of Dragon Alt Class abilty (Dragonhusk) & Dragon Disciple(Green)... so I loose plot hook from a failed or successfull mod in the recent past.. like a "Love Letter" that never quite made it to its intended recipient... but that "Person" hires me & some others to go find out whats holding it up and get it for her. I could even tie this into the Druids.. since they opperate in the same geographic location of "her" and want to keep "her" happy. Perhaps the druids & "her" will reward the party with some of these nice skills. The point.. dont try to create to many details (i probly did above).. just give the triad a reasonable justifiable source of knowledge for you to gain the new abilities you are trying to get access to. BTW.. so far.. the only SM i have played.. was for purely RP reasons.. and the triad threw some nice access at me just becouse I didnt ask for anything... :) (Satyr cohort, couple limited spells, etc...) Also.. There exists a Feat (Unorthodox Flurry) from Dragon Compendium.. which allows you to declare another weapon (any 1 weapon) as a monk weapon.. so you can flurry with it. (but that would be yet another SM).
solbergb 04-18-07, 11:53 AM	most of that feat advice is good. Earth Embrace is also a terrible LG feat because nobody can agree on what exactly it does, and under what conditions it applies. Ask 6 folks, you'll get 6 answers. Close quarters combat is a good feat at level 6 or 9 - there WILL be scary grapplemonsters that are much MUCH better than any PC can be at grappling and you WILL want a way to fend them off. My monk's only death that wasn't due to PC infighting/treachery was caused by a grapplemonster he couldn't escape from (and when he came back from the dead and leveled up again, he took close quarters combat. And Burke is a pretty good grappler, but even optomized to "good" he needed about another 15 points of grapple check at level 9 to stay mobile, and the best optomizations would have only given him about +5 more than he had. CQC can close that gap and more, depending on how hard you hit. Most huge monsters, especially if it is the only enemy, are ungrappleable, even enlarged, after level 8 or so. The 4 hit die/cr advancement and +8 to grapple check when they advance a size category is too big for you to catch up. But even at APL14, Burke uses his grapple on something in a useful way most every adventure, and his grapple check is only +26 (barring weird edge situations with "master's touch" spell and scorpion claws and time to reshuffle everything to use them)
Timlagor 04-18-07, 12:17 PM	I'd expect them to refuse you an SM for a Dragon Mag Feat ..but it shouldn't hurt to ask.
King Kashue 04-18-07, 12:18 PM	But even at APL14, Burke uses his grapple on something in a useful way most every adventure, and his grapple check is only +26 WTB [Grapple check], PST...:P
Llewelyn 04-18-07, 03:02 PM	Yeah, as I said it's gonna be a while anyways since I won't have the claws until 7th level, and won't be able to take any feats until 9th, so I'm going to wait and see on Beast Strike, though it sounds great. Another thought I had to help tide me over between levels 3 to 7? 9? in addition to grapple is taking Hold the Line at 3 and using a reach weapon... my unarmed strike from the monk levels means I wouldn't need Short Haft. Are there any reach weapons that also count as monk weapons for flurry? And Open access, of course.
Llewelyn 04-18-07, 10:20 PM	Another possible stat block idea that just came to mind: Wood Elf Str 16, Dex 16, Con 11, Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 11 I put my first bump in Con, so I only lose out on 3 HP overall(if I survive that long), but I also lose 2 Str(and that 18 at level 4). On the other hand, it opens up Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and any other Expertise-related feats I might want. Would the enhanced options be worth the tradeoff of +1 Str (and temporarily Con) bonuses? I'd also lose a bonus spell from Charisma and the slight boost to the Charisma skills, but I'd get more skill points so I consider that a wash.
Mommy was an Orc 04-18-07, 10:37 PM	Another possible stat block idea that just came to mind: Wood Elf Str 16, Dex 16, Con 11, Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 11 I put my first bump in Con, so I only lose out on 3 HP overall(if I survive that long), but I also lose 2 Str(and that 18 at level 4). On the other hand, it opens up Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and any other Expertise-related feats I might want. Would the enhanced options be worth the tradeoff of +1 Str (and temporarily Con) bonuses? I'd also lose a bonus spell from Charisma and the slight boost to the Charisma skills, but I'd get more skill points so I consider that a wash. Most important rule of stat bumps - if you're paying 2 points for stats for some reason, you don't want to advance a stat that you would have only paid 1 for. i.e. lower your Int to 12, raise both your Con/Cha to 12 each, then level Int to 13 at 4th...
Llewelyn 04-18-07, 11:03 PM	Most important rule of stat bumps - if you're paying 2 points for stats for some reason, you don't want to advance a stat that you would have only paid 1 for. i.e. lower your Int to 12, raise both your Con/Cha to 12 each, then level Int to 13 at 4th... It delays my access to Improved Trip by a few levels, but otherwise seems to work. The build now looks like: Wood Elf Str 16, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 12 1 Monk: Improved Grapple, Power Attack 2 Monk: Combat Reflexes, Evasion 3 Fighter: Weapon Focus(Grapple), Improved Toughness 4 Fighter: Combat Expertise, Int +1 5 Sorcerer: Spells(Master's Touch(?), Fists of Stone) 6 DD: Improved Trip, AC+1 7 DD: Str+2, Claw/Claw/Bite 8 DD: Breath(2d8) 9 DD: Multiattack, Str+2, AC+2 10 DD: Blindsense 30ft 11 DD: Con+2 12 DD: Improved Natural Attack(Claws or Unarmed Strike), Breath(4d8), AC+3 13 DD: Int+2 14 DD: Wings 15 DD: Improved Multiattack, Half-dragon template And in a grapple I should be able to Flurry-grapple-check, then use the claw-claw-bite after as secondary attacks, correct? (Albeit at a -4 additional) As grapple checks replace attack rolls... I looked at the FAQ but didn't see anything about that specific issue, and I know there's ones like rake which work only when grappled.
JamesMaissen 04-19-07, 12:12 AM	And in a grapple I should be able to Flurry-grapple-check, then use the claw-claw-bite after as secondary attacks, correct? (Albeit at a -4 additional) As grapple checks replace attack rolls... I looked at the FAQ but didn't see anything about that specific issue, and I know there's ones like rake which work only when grappled. No. You cannot use a natural attack routine in a grapple. You can use one natural attack as well as rake attacks (if you started your round in a grapple, or if you pounced). You could outside of a grapple elect to flurry and make grapple *attacks* deciding not to move in to maintain the grapple and then make your secondary natural attacks (which would be at a -5 additional penalty, not -4). -James
Llewelyn 04-19-07, 12:38 AM	Sorry if my questions seem stupid, but I want to make sure I know what I'm doing with the character ending up a grappler, since i haven't done any grappling before. No. You cannot use a natural attack routine in a grapple. You can use one natural attack as well as rake attacks (if you started your round in a grapple, or if you pounced). You could outside of a grapple elect to flurry and make grapple *attacks* deciding not to move in to maintain the grapple and then make your secondary natural attacks (which would be at a -5 additional penalty, not -4). -James The -4 was referring to the "Making an attack" option in a grapple, not the -5 (or -2 with multiattack) penalty, which I was automatically assuming would be there. You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks. And mixing that option with the option to simply make opposed grappling checks to do damage. Looking at Rake's description though with what you said and that in mind, it looks like I wouldn't be able to do, say, two grapple checks monk-style and a secondary bite, as if I could do that I'd be able to do a full routine technically. Probably another stupid question: when you use a flurry and such, penalties such as the -2 from it, or the -(1-5) from power attack are applied towards the grapple check, correct? And before this drifts too far off-topic from a character thread, does the build above look feasable and useful in a party? (with the possible caveat of maybe trading the improved nat attack for something else later if I find something I want more)