Human Chain Fighter.. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Human Chain Fighter.. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
soonerpat
06-27-07, 10:40 AM Last year my wife started a character and wanted something simple to play, so we whipped out a human chain fighter built for tripping. She doesn't play often and just made level 2 last night... what do you recommend for the new bonus fighter feat?

Here's the stats:

S: 16, I: 14, D: 14, C:14, W: 8, C: 8

First feats: Exotic weapon - Spiked chain, Combat expertise, Improved trip.

We're thinking combat expertise to threaten things entering instead of leaving squares, and to give her 3 AoO's per round with that 10' reach chain..

Thoughts?
bitznarf
06-27-07, 10:43 AM Either Power Attack or Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain), aiming for Exotic Weapon Master. At this level you are pretty much better off hitting the bad guy rather than doing something like disarming him (if you take Improved Disarm) as knocking the guy out effectively disarms him anyway, lol.
Efekjek
06-27-07, 01:29 PM We're thinking combat expertise to threaten things entering instead of leaving squares, and to give her 3 AoO's per round with that 10' reach chain..

Thoughts?

You're thinkin Combat Reflexes. As a lvl 6 spiked chainer myself, I can tell you it comes in handy. I once had three bat swarms charge me and all die from AOOs. It's also fun for whipping the crap out of somebody who thinks you're flat-footed.

I also think power attack will be good as you will have low damage but high BAB.

Weapon focus is good, too, cuz EWM flurry is good.
JamesMaissen
06-27-07, 04:06 PM Last year my wife started a character and wanted something simple to play, so we whipped out a human chain fighter built for tripping. She doesn't play often and just made level 2 last night... what do you recommend for the new bonus fighter feat?

I suggest that you sit down and plan the character out for many levels to come. The character doesn't have to progress this way, but having a roadmap will GREATLY help you should nothing change during the actually time you are leveling.

I would suggest that you consider the following feats:

Power Attack: You have a two-handed weapon and at times will want to hurt someone with it. You don't have a shield because of this, so atleast do damage and you'll be taking it.

Combat Reflexes: Anyone with a reach weapon should desire this. Also it lets you take AOOs while flatfooted. It's invaluable. Just recall that when you are enlarged (and you will want to be enlarged) you won't get quite as many AOOs as your DEX will be lower.

Weapon Focus: Besides benefits in and of itself, it qualifies you for Exotic Weaponmaster. You will want two levels of this PrC. First for the 'Flurry of Strikes' stunt that lets you get an extra attack for -2 on all attacks. This is the most powerful stunt on it's list and a must. The second is the one that lets you take AOOs against those with cover. Enemies will NOT be expecting you to be able to do this and will get a nasty surprise from you when it comes up. It's not as amazing as getting flurry, but it's worth a level in the class that you've already paid admission to enter. If you desire a third level there is one that gives a bonus on trip attempts (though at this point the save bumps will help assuage that cost).

Extra Rage: Assuming you take a Barbarian level at 3rd, figure this as coming with it (kinda like Combat Reflexes goes with the reach weapon).

ShockTrooper/Combat Brute: These are tactical feats from the Complete Warrior. They require Improved Sunder and Improved Bullrush but are good thug-like feats. Consider them. If you don't like one of the prereqs for them then consider it as paying two feat slots for each (and you could retrain into the prereq when you get the next feat slot available for the 'payoff' feat). It's pricey to get, but have advantages (as well as costs).

Improved Disarm: A very nice feat that when it comes up can control a combat. Unlike Improved Trip the die swing on this is likely not as much, so when it comes up favorable it's the closest to a sure thing as you get (also there's not a chance of reversing with the feat unlike with tripping).

Weapon Specialization/Melee Weapon Mastery(piercing): Historically Specialization was not the best feat for a high strength build, but with Melee Weapon Mastery backing it up it becomes useful and general purpose.

Quickdraw: A very nice luxury feat. It opens up possibilities and smoothes out corners.

I would suggest the following build (roughly):

Fighter1 EWP: Spiked Chain, Combat Expertiese, Improved Trip
Fighter2 Combat Reflexes (or Power Attack)
Barbarian1 Extra Rage
Fighter3 (Ref/Will save bump)
Fighter4 Power Attack (or Combat Reflexes)
Barbarian2 (Uncanny Dodge) Weapon Focus: Spiked Chain
EWM1 (Flurry of Strikes)
Fighter5 (nothing)
Fighter6 Weapon Spec: Spiked Chain, MWM: Piercing
EWM2 (AOOs through cover)

Now if you don't value Uncanny Dodge (and thus Barbarian2) all that highly, then take Fighter5 there and bump the other levels down accordingly. Also note that MWM: Piercing will apply to those armor spikes that you are wearing (and you are wearing them, right?). Likewise you could do away with barbarian altogether bumping the Fighter levels down if you don't care for Rage (it will get in the way of Combat Expertiese, but not Improved Trip).

The build's nothing spectacular, but it has the basics down. Salt to taste.

-James
boogahwoof
07-02-07, 07:59 PM Well I have posted this before on other chain fighting lines, but i do believe going 3 levels of knight if you are a chain fighter is the way to go. Oncwe you get to 3rd level knight you get the Bullwark of Defence if anyone starts thier move in your threatened area (pretty big for a spiked chainer esp if enlarged) they are in hampered terrain, no 5 foot steps, so any movement they make draws a AO for you. So you can be more of a battlefield controler, its just a idea but it seems to be a very good use, in our group we have a knight that ises a spiked chain in this way to very effective uses
clannagh
07-02-07, 09:06 PM You're thinkin Combat Reflexes. As a lvl 6 spiked chainer myself, I can tell you it comes in handy. I once had three bat swarms charge me and all die from AOOs. It's also fun for whipping the crap out of somebody who thinks you're flat-footed.

I also think power attack will be good as you will have low damage but high BAB.

Weapon focus is good, too, cuz EWM flurry is good.

actually he is probably thinking "hold the line" thats the one that threatens if you enter a square on a charge

another good one that goes well with combat reflexes is deft opportunist for +4 on all attacks of opportunity
_metz_
07-03-07, 12:10 AM You're thinkin Combat Reflexes. As a lvl 6 spiked chainer myself, I can tell you it comes in handy. I once had three bat swarms charge me and all die from AOOs. It's also fun for whipping the crap out of somebody who thinks you're flat-footed.

I also think power attack will be good as you will have low damage but high BAB.

Weapon focus is good, too, cuz EWM flurry is good.

Then your DM didn't know his monsters.

Bat Swarm:

'Immune to weapon damage'.

It may have been cool, but it was illegal.

On another note, EWM Flurry is too good to NOT take, and as Weapon focus is a really useful feat in any case, I would take it.

Power Attack is a must. The Reason Spiked chains are so good is that they are two handed for that purpose. (and finessable, but I don't think that is a concern here). Get Power Attack by level 5 if I were you.

Weapon Spec. and Melee Weapon Mastery are good ideas as well. Fighter 14 EWM1 is perfectly viable.
ThaiGQ
07-03-07, 01:40 PM On another note, EWM Flurry is too good to NOT take, and as Weapon focus is a really useful feat in any case, I would take it.

Power Attack is a must. The Reason Spiked chains are so good is that they are two handed for that purpose. (and finessable, but I don't think that is a concern here). Get Power Attack by level 5 if I were you.

Weapon Spec. and Melee Weapon Mastery are good ideas as well. Fighter 14 EWM1 is perfectly viable.

I agree with Metz on pretty much everything here...but I'd probably go at least 2 levels of EWM for the Flurry of Strikes AND Exotic Reach. If nothing else, it should simplify things for your wife so she doesn't have to worry whether she can take AoOs on creatures with cover or not. In fact, you could just max out EWM and take Trip Attack as your last trick for +2 to trip.

Boogahwoof's idea for Knight 3 is also really good. The Bulwark of Defense sounds like a really solid idea with a spiked chain (I haven't tried it yet myself) but I've thought about a build that went something like: Fighter4/Knight3/EWM3/Occult Slayer5 (just to screw over spellcasters :devil:)
Iswald
07-09-07, 12:31 AM Well I have posted this before on other chain fighting lines, but i do believe going 3 levels of knight if you are a chain fighter is the way to go. Oncwe you get to 3rd level knight you get the Bullwark of Defence if anyone starts thier move in your threatened area (pretty big for a spiked chainer esp if enlarged) they are in hampered terrain, no 5 foot steps, so any movement they make draws a AO for you. So you can be more of a battlefield controler, its just a idea but it seems to be a very good use, in our group we have a knight that ises a spiked chain in this way to very effective uses

I also think knight would be a good place to start a chain fighter. In the builds that people have been proposing recently, though, I haven't been seeing any levels of knight. Is this from lack of knowledge or does it simply not work well in LG?

It would seem that delay potion would be particularly useful for this kind of PC, quaffing a potion of enlarge well before expected encounters and becoming large as a swift action. Even if you plan on a chain fighting gish, this may work out, 5 levels of wizard so you have scribe scroll and then brew potion as your bonus feat. The main problem is getting all the extra feats in when you need quite a few just to use your chain effectively.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
soonerpat 06-27-07, 10:40 AM	Last year my wife started a character and wanted something simple to play, so we whipped out a human chain fighter built for tripping. She doesn't play often and just made level 2 last night... what do you recommend for the new bonus fighter feat? Here's the stats: S: 16, I: 14, D: 14, C:14, W: 8, C: 8 First feats: Exotic weapon - Spiked chain, Combat expertise, Improved trip. We're thinking combat expertise to threaten things entering instead of leaving squares, and to give her 3 AoO's per round with that 10' reach chain.. Thoughts?
bitznarf 06-27-07, 10:43 AM	Either Power Attack or Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain), aiming for Exotic Weapon Master. At this level you are pretty much better off hitting the bad guy rather than doing something like disarming him (if you take Improved Disarm) as knocking the guy out effectively disarms him anyway, lol.
Efekjek 06-27-07, 01:29 PM	We're thinking combat expertise to threaten things entering instead of leaving squares, and to give her 3 AoO's per round with that 10' reach chain.. Thoughts? You're thinkin Combat Reflexes. As a lvl 6 spiked chainer myself, I can tell you it comes in handy. I once had three bat swarms charge me and all die from AOOs. It's also fun for whipping the crap out of somebody who thinks you're flat-footed. I also think power attack will be good as you will have low damage but high BAB. Weapon focus is good, too, cuz EWM flurry is good.
JamesMaissen 06-27-07, 04:06 PM	Last year my wife started a character and wanted something simple to play, so we whipped out a human chain fighter built for tripping. She doesn't play often and just made level 2 last night... what do you recommend for the new bonus fighter feat? I suggest that you sit down and plan the character out for many levels to come. The character doesn't have to progress this way, but having a roadmap will GREATLY help you should nothing change during the actually time you are leveling. I would suggest that you consider the following feats: Power Attack: You have a two-handed weapon and at times will want to hurt someone with it. You don't have a shield because of this, so atleast do damage and you'll be taking it. Combat Reflexes: Anyone with a reach weapon should desire this. Also it lets you take AOOs while flatfooted. It's invaluable. Just recall that when you are enlarged (and you will want to be enlarged) you won't get quite as many AOOs as your DEX will be lower. Weapon Focus: Besides benefits in and of itself, it qualifies you for Exotic Weaponmaster. You will want two levels of this PrC. First for the 'Flurry of Strikes' stunt that lets you get an extra attack for -2 on all attacks. This is the most powerful stunt on it's list and a must. The second is the one that lets you take AOOs against those with cover. Enemies will NOT be expecting you to be able to do this and will get a nasty surprise from you when it comes up. It's not as amazing as getting flurry, but it's worth a level in the class that you've already paid admission to enter. If you desire a third level there is one that gives a bonus on trip attempts (though at this point the save bumps will help assuage that cost). Extra Rage: Assuming you take a Barbarian level at 3rd, figure this as coming with it (kinda like Combat Reflexes goes with the reach weapon). ShockTrooper/Combat Brute: These are tactical feats from the Complete Warrior. They require Improved Sunder and Improved Bullrush but are good thug-like feats. Consider them. If you don't like one of the prereqs for them then consider it as paying two feat slots for each (and you could retrain into the prereq when you get the next feat slot available for the 'payoff' feat). It's pricey to get, but have advantages (as well as costs). Improved Disarm: A very nice feat that when it comes up can control a combat. Unlike Improved Trip the die swing on this is likely not as much, so when it comes up favorable it's the closest to a sure thing as you get (also there's not a chance of reversing with the feat unlike with tripping). Weapon Specialization/Melee Weapon Mastery(piercing): Historically Specialization was not the best feat for a high strength build, but with Melee Weapon Mastery backing it up it becomes useful and general purpose. Quickdraw: A very nice luxury feat. It opens up possibilities and smoothes out corners. I would suggest the following build (roughly): Fighter1 EWP: Spiked Chain, Combat Expertiese, Improved Trip Fighter2 Combat Reflexes (or Power Attack) Barbarian1 Extra Rage Fighter3 (Ref/Will save bump) Fighter4 Power Attack (or Combat Reflexes) Barbarian2 (Uncanny Dodge) Weapon Focus: Spiked Chain EWM1 (Flurry of Strikes) Fighter5 (nothing) Fighter6 Weapon Spec: Spiked Chain, MWM: Piercing EWM2 (AOOs through cover) Now if you don't value Uncanny Dodge (and thus Barbarian2) all that highly, then take Fighter5 there and bump the other levels down accordingly. Also note that MWM: Piercing will apply to those armor spikes that you are wearing (and you are wearing them, right?). Likewise you could do away with barbarian altogether bumping the Fighter levels down if you don't care for Rage (it will get in the way of Combat Expertiese, but not Improved Trip). The build's nothing spectacular, but it has the basics down. Salt to taste. -James
boogahwoof 07-02-07, 07:59 PM	Well I have posted this before on other chain fighting lines, but i do believe going 3 levels of knight if you are a chain fighter is the way to go. Oncwe you get to 3rd level knight you get the Bullwark of Defence if anyone starts thier move in your threatened area (pretty big for a spiked chainer esp if enlarged) they are in hampered terrain, no 5 foot steps, so any movement they make draws a AO for you. So you can be more of a battlefield controler, its just a idea but it seems to be a very good use, in our group we have a knight that ises a spiked chain in this way to very effective uses
clannagh 07-02-07, 09:06 PM	You're thinkin Combat Reflexes. As a lvl 6 spiked chainer myself, I can tell you it comes in handy. I once had three bat swarms charge me and all die from AOOs. It's also fun for whipping the crap out of somebody who thinks you're flat-footed. I also think power attack will be good as you will have low damage but high BAB. Weapon focus is good, too, cuz EWM flurry is good. actually he is probably thinking "hold the line" thats the one that threatens if you enter a square on a charge another good one that goes well with combat reflexes is deft opportunist for +4 on all attacks of opportunity
_metz_ 07-03-07, 12:10 AM	You're thinkin Combat Reflexes. As a lvl 6 spiked chainer myself, I can tell you it comes in handy. I once had three bat swarms charge me and all die from AOOs. It's also fun for whipping the crap out of somebody who thinks you're flat-footed. I also think power attack will be good as you will have low damage but high BAB. Weapon focus is good, too, cuz EWM flurry is good. Then your DM didn't know his monsters. Bat Swarm: 'Immune to weapon damage'. It may have been cool, but it was illegal. On another note, EWM Flurry is too good to NOT take, and as Weapon focus is a really useful feat in any case, I would take it. Power Attack is a must. The Reason Spiked chains are so good is that they are two handed for that purpose. (and finessable, but I don't think that is a concern here). Get Power Attack by level 5 if I were you. Weapon Spec. and Melee Weapon Mastery are good ideas as well. Fighter 14 EWM1 is perfectly viable.
ThaiGQ 07-03-07, 01:40 PM	On another note, EWM Flurry is too good to NOT take, and as Weapon focus is a really useful feat in any case, I would take it. Power Attack is a must. The Reason Spiked chains are so good is that they are two handed for that purpose. (and finessable, but I don't think that is a concern here). Get Power Attack by level 5 if I were you. Weapon Spec. and Melee Weapon Mastery are good ideas as well. Fighter 14 EWM1 is perfectly viable. I agree with Metz on pretty much everything here...but I'd probably go at least 2 levels of EWM for the Flurry of Strikes AND Exotic Reach. If nothing else, it should simplify things for your wife so she doesn't have to worry whether she can take AoOs on creatures with cover or not. In fact, you could just max out EWM and take Trip Attack as your last trick for +2 to trip. Boogahwoof's idea for Knight 3 is also really good. The Bulwark of Defense sounds like a really solid idea with a spiked chain (I haven't tried it yet myself) but I've thought about a build that went something like: Fighter4/Knight3/EWM3/Occult Slayer5 (just to screw over spellcasters :devil:)
Iswald 07-09-07, 12:31 AM	Well I have posted this before on other chain fighting lines, but i do believe going 3 levels of knight if you are a chain fighter is the way to go. Oncwe you get to 3rd level knight you get the Bullwark of Defence if anyone starts thier move in your threatened area (pretty big for a spiked chainer esp if enlarged) they are in hampered terrain, no 5 foot steps, so any movement they make draws a AO for you. So you can be more of a battlefield controler, its just a idea but it seems to be a very good use, in our group we have a knight that ises a spiked chain in this way to very effective uses I also think knight would be a good place to start a chain fighter. In the builds that people have been proposing recently, though, I haven't been seeing any levels of knight. Is this from lack of knowledge or does it simply not work well in LG? It would seem that delay potion would be particularly useful for this kind of PC, quaffing a potion of enlarge well before expected encounters and becoming large as a swift action. Even if you plan on a chain fighting gish, this may work out, 5 levels of wizard so you have scribe scroll and then brew potion as your bonus feat. The main problem is getting all the extra feats in when you need quite a few just to use your chain effectively.