Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LGMoses 10-14-07, 07:29 PM	Hello all. 4e is coming and 3.5 is on its way out, but to honor and celebrate it our local game store is going to have blowout game that is going to be an arena type pvp combat game with characters of 13th level. The winner gets a prize equal to merchandise in the store up to a certain amount in value. I would like to honor Greyhawk by playing a character very specific to the setting that everyone will remember. My first big idea was a cleric of Iuz. That would be really cool. Maybe a paladin of Heironeous. Something to put the setting in everyone's mind. The stat build is 18 down and you may use any feat, etc. from any 3.5 dnd book you own. I only own Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane. I could possible get my hands on a couple more complete books or something if absolutely necessary. What builds can you guys suggest for my character to be memorable and to whomp a$$.
Lomiat 10-14-07, 07:40 PM	Hello all. 4e is coming and 3.5 is on its way out, but to honor and celebrate it our local game store is going to have blowout game that is going to be an arena type pvp combat game with characters of 13th level. The winner gets a prize equal to merchandise in the store up to a certain amount in value. I would like to honor Greyhawk by playing a character very specific to the setting that everyone will remember. My first big idea was a cleric of Iuz. That would be really cool. Maybe a paladin of Heironeous. Something to put the setting in everyone's mind. The stat build is 18 down and you may use any feat, etc. from any 3.5 dnd book you own. I only own Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane. I could possible get my hands on a couple more complete books or something if absolutely necessary. What builds can you guys suggest for my character to be memorable and to whomp a$$. If you're looking to abuse the mechanics for the system, I recommend you consider the feats that are Closed to LG. They're generally Closed for a reason. It's important to know, too, how PC wealth and racial modifiers factor into the business. Can you play a grey elf? Or can you not play a PC with a racial modifier to its mental attributes (excepting, of course, the races that have ECL bumps and, therefore, lose caster levels)? At any rate, I'd recommend a straight caster, either divine or arcane, and the Craft Contingent Spell feat.
LGMoses 10-14-07, 07:51 PM	gold is standard for that level from the DM's guide and phb races only I believe. 90,000 gold.
Wraith235 10-14-07, 10:09 PM	90k is Low for 13th lvl .... I know 15th is 200k
Hariman 10-14-07, 11:12 PM	Hello all. 4e is coming and 3.5 is on its way out, but to honor and celebrate it our local game store is going to have blowout game that is going to be an arena type pvp combat game with characters of 13th level. The winner gets a prize equal to merchandise in the store up to a certain amount in value. I would like to honor Greyhawk by playing a character very specific to the setting that everyone will remember. My first big idea was a cleric of Iuz. That would be really cool. Maybe a paladin of Heironeous. Something to put the setting in everyone's mind. The stat build is 18 down and you may use any feat, etc. from any 3.5 dnd book you own. I only own Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane. I could possible get my hands on a couple more complete books or something if absolutely necessary. What builds can you guys suggest for my character to be memorable and to whomp a$$. If there are no restrictions on feats I would take a Human Sorcerer9/Fatespinner4 with: Draconic Heritage Spell Focus (Evocation or Conjuration, they both have good blasting spells if the Spell Compendium is allowed) Empower Spell Practical Metamagic (Empower Spell) Rapid Metamagic. Metamagic School Focus Your first three spells with be Empowered for +0, They'll be your level 6 spells. Alternatively, you could take Quicken spell and Practical Metamagic (Quicken Spell), which would let you toss Quickened/empowered spells for +4. All Day. And empowered spells would only cost +1. But that's a little cheesy, because you take Quicken at a point when a normal character can't use it. Although, I don't think either of those are really "Greyhawk Specific". And a wizard could do almost as well. The wizard would just not get Practical metamagic. Also, Cleric 13 would be a great choice. Nothing like being able to heal yourself.
_metz_ 10-15-07, 07:23 AM	In a Cage Match you should always go a Gnome Sorcerer. Take feats like Spell Focus, Weapon Focus (ray) etc. As for Metamagic, buy some rods!! Additionally, Prep True Seeing and Greater Invis/Blink yourself every time, add a fly spell, and prep a ring of counterspells to get rid of any dispel magics, etc. If you can do whatever you want just make a shadow caster or a fate spinner shadowcraft mage.
Mattastrophic 10-15-07, 12:13 PM	In a PvP environment, Sorcerer is even more subpar than it is normally (Sorry solbergb, copper_wyrmling; I'm just being honest). Do you really need eight Fireballs for a combat that'll probably last two rounds? A Wizard build would be much stronger, especially with the plethora of spells available in all of 3.5. Off the top of my head, an Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil sounds pretty strong, as you're just high enough level for Reactive Warding. Find out what durations of pre-buffs are allowed to you, then stack as many on as you can. Get huge initiative, saves, and AC, bring methods of Quickening spells, then go first and either shut down your opponent or just kill him. -Matt
copperwyrmling 10-15-07, 01:07 PM	In a PvP environment, Sorcerer is even more subpar than it is normally (Sorry solbergb, copper_wyrmling; I'm just being honest). I know the CharOp consensus is sorcerer is subpar, and maybe that's true in the homegames they play - I can't really comment as I don't play in those games. In LG, though, sorc seems just fine - and I'm being honest too, based on my play experience with my two sorcerers in LG and the rather large proportion of my friends who play grey elf wizards. This may of course have something to do with the CharOp people mostly commenting on L20 builds and LG requiring you to play L1-15 ;) - or it may have something to do with the usual way LG games play out (scry-buff-teleport-kill is rarely an option, you normally don't know exactly what you're getting into, time limits are common). Do you really need eight Fireballs for a combat that'll probably last two rounds? No, but if you wanted to fire two ocular spells and a quickened spell in the first round and then a quickened spell and a regular spell in the main round (while your familiar does a quickened and a regular spell each round, using Imbue Familiar With Spell Ability), then it's nice to have a lot of top-tier slots ;) At L13, though, a wizard probably has more L6+7 spells than a sorc has L6 spells - and if you know exactly what you're fighting and have plenty of time to prebuff, then yeah, it's a wizard's game ;) Although that said... I think you may be undervaluing the ability to cast spontaneously (and apply metamagic spontaneously) when fighting against other players who know the usual tricks and will presumably react pretty fast to what you do. A sorc can choose from any of their top-tier options while they have slots left, a wizard needs to tie up precious high-level prepared slots for every quickened spell he wants to cast. A lesser rod of quicken would help but is a fairly big chunk of that 90k. There are MIC items that would help - have a look at Belt of Battle. One that might be funny is sorcerer 6 / ruathar 2 / fatespinner 4 / marshal 1. Add your Cha modifier to initiative, and buy a Belt of Battle if you have the MIC - it should be pretty easy to get your init up to +20 or so (+8 Cha, +5 Dex, +4 improved init, +2 belt of battle). If buff-time is restricted, you could open with sudden maximized split ray enervation, activate belt of battle, then ordinary split ray enervation - that averages 13 neg levels, convenient, no? ;) Of course, it will not work if there are a lot of items out there that give continuous deathward, or if your opponent is a cleric who can make deathward persistent or has time to prebuff with it. Although... wait. ALL books are allowed? Is there a reason not to abuse Ray of Stupidity? A wizard can probably do that better - Ocular Split Ray Empowered Rays of Stupidity, with Arcane Thesis: Ray of Stupidity, plus a Quickened Split Ray of Stupidity... average 27 Int damage I think, and your familiar can weigh in with another Split Ray of Stupidity to take the average to 34. These aren't really Greyhawk-specific builds, but it's probably a good idea to think about what you'd do against this sort of thing ;)
Lomiat 10-15-07, 06:02 PM	Although... wait. ALL books are allowed? Is there a reason not to abuse Ray of Stupidity? A wizard can probably do that better - Ocular Split Ray Empowered Rays of Stupidity, with Arcane Thesis: Ray of Stupidity, plus a Quickened Split Ray of Stupidity... average 27 Int damage I think, and your familiar can weigh in with another Split Ray of Stupidity to take the average to 34. These aren't really Greyhawk-specific builds, but it's probably a good idea to think about what you'd do against this sort of thing ;) I think, according to LGMoses, all books are allowed, but he only owns Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane; that shuts down a lot of his options, including the Belt of Battle (and all other MIC items) as well as some choice spells (Radiant Assault?). Furthermore, is this fight a 1 vs 1 deal each round, or an open-area free-for-all? That drastically impacts what spells and builds become more effective. As for Ray of Stupidity, Occult Slayer 5 gives immunity to Mind-Affecting, completely negating Ray of Stupidity. So does Mind Blank; depending on how buffs work out, that would be a good Crafted Contingent Spell (off a scroll). And, as for sorcerers vs. wizards, the contest gives wizards an edge because it places PCs at an odd level. Higher spell levels trump more spells. Higher spell levels also tend to trump spell spontaneity. The Marshal boost to Initiative could prove rather significant, of course, and it's well worth any PC in such an environment to plan to aim toward as high an Init as possible. For that matter, a "wizard or sorcerer turned Occult Slayer" archer wouldn't be a bad build either, and I'm fond of builds that offer both Evasion and Mettle.
Mattastrophic 10-15-07, 07:18 PM	Is there a reason not to abuse Ray of Stupidity? Ray Deflection. Or a badass touch AC. Maybe some tricks with Ethereal Jaunt, too. As for sorcerer options... if you take a look at the numbers in the Sorcerer's spells known list, it's smaller than the Wizard's spells/day list. In this case, at 13th, it's 9/5/5/4/3/2/1 vs. 4/4/4/4/4/3/2/1. Add on bonus spells, specialization (or Elf Wizard1), and Pearls of Power (might be N/A depending on OP's scenario), and Alacritous Cogitation, and the Wizard has more possibilities at any given time than a sorcerer does. In this particular case, the Wizard gets 7th level spells, too, where the Sorcerer doesn't. And that means Limited Wish, for ultimate versatility. Even moreso when combined with Alacritous Cogitation. As for metamagic... just use rods. Sorcerers have to spend full-round actions using them, which means without Quick Draw, they're only really able to use one rod, the one they're currently holding, as it takes more than a full-round action to draw a desired rod and cast a spell with it. Also, the Wizard can substitute for a lot of equipment with spells. Thus, in a game where PCs are limited on equipment, Wizards easily break that limit. Sorcerers just don't have the spells known to keep up. To be honest, if the OP doesn't have tons of books, he should keep it simple, though. To optimize a spellcaster, you need to look through a ton of books. -Matt
copperwyrmling 10-15-07, 08:55 PM	Ray Deflection. Or a badass touch AC. Maybe some tricks with Ethereal Jaunt, too. You need to get them up first, and you can only have one contingency up at once usually - but yeah, ray deflection would be annoying. A lot depends on prebuff time. As for sorcerer options... if you take a look at the numbers in the Sorcerer's spells known list, it's smaller than the Wizard's spells/day list. In this case, at 13th, it's 9/5/5/4/3/2/1 vs. 4/4/4/4/4/3/2/1. Add on bonus spells, specialization (or Elf Wizard1), and Pearls of Power (might be N/A depending on OP's scenario), and Alacritous Cogitation, and the Wizard has more possibilities at any given time than a sorcerer does. I think that's the sorc's L12 spells-known list actually (it's 9/5/5/4/4/3/2 at L13) - but I'm not arguing the point, you haven't counted the wizard's extra spells from Int and they'll easily compensate (like I said above, at L13 a wizard also probably has more L6+7 spell slots than a sorc has L6 spell slots). The bigger issue is that (a) you're not taking metamagic into account (it vastly expands a sorcerer's effective spells known) and (b) a sorc isn't restricted to casting each of those spells once/day. If you expect the encounter to end with the first L7 spell, though, then yeah, wizard is definitely superior :P I did say in my post that I thought this contest probably favored a wizard - I'm not actually arguing that point ;) Sorcerer has some interesting options like using marshal to add to initiative, but if you have prebuff time, know in advance roughly what you're facing (similarly built PCs), and you're at an odd level, those are all very nice for a wizard and not so much for a sorc. In this particular case, the Wizard gets 7th level spells, too, where the Sorcerer doesn't. And that means Limited Wish, for ultimate versatility. Even moreso when combined with Alacritous Cogitation. Limited Wish depends on starting XP: if they're right at the start of L13 they can't use it. As for metamagic... just use rods. Sorcerers have to spend full-round actions using them, My sorcerer doesn't :P I was kind of assuming that the OP's initial list of books was not a hard cap - even if it is, it's good to think about what other people can bring to the contest, so he can think about counters. Full metamagic rods can be quite expensive when you're limited to 90k, for either wizards or sorcs, although the times/day limit is probably immaterial in this case. Belts of Battle are better ;) To be honest, if the OP doesn't have tons of books, he should keep it simple, though. To optimize a spellcaster, you need to look through a ton of books. Agreed. The latter part of my post was more about what his opponents might do to him. I'm thinking some way to be immune to mind-affecting might be a really good idea.
Hariman 10-15-07, 09:08 PM	Ray Deflection. Or a badass touch AC. Maybe some tricks with Ethereal Jaunt, too. As for sorcerer options... if you take a look at the numbers in the Sorcerer's spells known list, it's smaller than the Wizard's spells/day list. In this case, at 13th, it's 9/5/5/4/3/2/1 vs. 4/4/4/4/4/3/2/1. Add on bonus spells, specialization (or Elf Wizard1), and Pearls of Power (might be N/A depending on OP's scenario), and Alacritous Cogitation, and the Wizard has more possibilities at any given time than a sorcerer does. In this particular case, the Wizard gets 7th level spells, too, where the Sorcerer doesn't. And that means Limited Wish, for ultimate versatility. Even moreso when combined with Alacritous Cogitation. As for metamagic... just use rods. Sorcerers have to spend full-round actions using them, which means without Quick Draw, they're only really able to use one rod, the one they're currently holding, as it takes more than a full-round action to draw a desired rod and cast a spell with it. Also, the Wizard can substitute for a lot of equipment with spells. Thus, in a game where PCs are limited on equipment, Wizards easily break that limit. Sorcerers just don't have the spells known to keep up. To be honest, if the OP doesn't have tons of books, he should keep it simple, though. To optimize a spellcaster, you need to look through a ton of books. -Matt But there are still good options for a sorcerer with only complete Arcane and Complete Warrior. Fatespinner on a sorcerer is one of those "of course" options. And if you're not going to get the level 7 spells anyway, then taking that last level of fatespinner is that much better. -10 to one save is huge in any sort of PC v PC combat. You really only need one attack spell per level. Less if you use metamagic enhanced spells to fill the holes. Plus, with +3 quicken, you can bomb targeted dispel magics each round. Another alternative is a Hexblade4/Barbarian1/Fighter4/Dragon Disciple4. You lose only 1 BAB, gain +4 STR, can take both Weapon Focus and Specialization. (And weapon mastery if you can borrow a PHB2.) Take a reach weapon, outfit the character with choice weapons and armor and Power attack for fun and success. And buy a potion of remove blindness just in case.
copperwyrmling 10-15-07, 09:13 PM	As for Ray of Stupidity, Occult Slayer 5 gives immunity to Mind-Affecting, completely negating Ray of Stupidity. So does Mind Blank; depending on how buffs work out, that would be a good Crafted Contingent Spell (off a scroll). *nods* I thought of Mind Blank, but it doesn't kick in as a regular buff until L15. A scroll is probably a good idea for any caster though, and Occult Slayer might be a good plan for a BDF - it's not like you're especially concerned about your party members being unable to give you beneficial spells. Ray Deflection would just be nice generally: there are a lot of vicious no-save ray spells out there. And, as for sorcerers vs. wizards, the contest gives wizards an edge because it places PCs at an odd level. Higher spell levels trump more spells. Higher spell levels also tend to trump spell spontaneity. You'd be amazed - I played Az in White Plume at L13 with MD and Bas' L13 grey elf wizards, and the L7 spells didn't actually make much difference. Nor did she feel outshone ;) (They Forcecaged one monster, which was cool - but it was mostly a way to make the GM call the combat so we could move on, since the monster in question was a melee type stuck in Freezing Fog and enfeebled. I think most of the other L7 spells turned into Limited Wishes.) But I'm not trying to dispute that full-caster wizard is probably better than full-caster sorcerer if you can prebuff, you know roughly what you're facing (in this case, enemies with 13 class levels from - presumably - LA+0 races), and you expect the fight to last a couple of rounds at most. I think we're in agreement here ;)
copperwyrmling 10-15-07, 09:27 PM	Fatespinner on a sorcerer is one of those "of course" options. And if you're not going to get the level 7 spells anyway, then taking that last level of fatespinner is that much better. -10 to one save is huge in any sort of PC v PC combat. Hmmm, true, and it would work, because everyone in this fight has 13 HD (except bards with Inspire Greatness). That's another interesting point - stuff that works only on creatures of your HD or less will become much scarier. It's a pity there's a reasonable chance your opponent will be the same alignment as you ;)
solbergb 10-15-07, 09:49 PM	Yeah. My bizzaro TK sorcerer Olivia is currently kicking rear and taking names in Demonweb. I doubt very much the final encounter in chapter one would have gone as well without her strange spell mix and likewise the drow have really not known what to make of her in any encounter (one CR18 encounter we chose to fight head on in particular - they had the right tools to shut her down but tried stuff that would have worked on a normal wizard, cleric or sorcerer first....and didn't have the spells to try again once it was clear what they should have done because they're mostly prep casters heh....and some were dead) And yeah, she doesn't have to spend extra time either. Expect your modern sorcerer at level 13 to have rapid metamagic and quicken spell. Expect her in a cage match to have any DMG level 1-8 spell that might be useful and has access to on a scroll too. Olivia has NEVER felt inferior to a wizard she's adventured with, not even the ones that outlevel her. She on the other hand has caused a few jaws to drop with her solutions to problems. They aren't always how a "normal" arcane would do it. Sometimes very different. She did APL8 "endgame" at level 4 with three other arcane and was a strong contributor due largely to her unusual spell mix. Ditto when she did City of Brass APL 14 with a full L15 wizard when she was level 11. SHE wasn't the one burning L7 and L8 scrolls just to keep up :) But I'm not trying to dispute that full-caster wizard is probably better than full-caster sorcerer if you can prebuff, you know roughly what you're facing (in this case, enemies with 13 class levels from - presumably - LA+0 races), and you expect the fight to last a couple of rounds at most. I think we're in agreement here ;) Olivia'd only do well in a cage match vs opponents who don't know her. A wizard prepared for her stuff would win. I'm not sure how a sorc designed for this kind of combat would do, but you can burn spell slots really fast with quicken spell in that level range and most things a wiz can do, a sorc can do with purchase of scrolls, if access to everything is open.
Mattastrophic 10-16-07, 12:13 AM	But there are still good options for a[n arcanist] with only complete Arcane and Complete Warrior. Not enough to win a PvP tournament, though. -Matt
_metz_ 10-16-07, 12:22 AM	In a PvP environment, Sorcerer is even more subpar than it is normally (Sorry solbergb, copper_wyrmling; I'm just being honest). Do you really need eight Fireballs for a combat that'll probably last two rounds? -Matt A lot of Cage Matches I have seen don't allow the replenishing of resources between rounds. Otherwise Wizards will _always_ win. In which Case a specialist Gnomish Fatespinner/ShadowCraft Mage with School Focuses up the yahoo would win every fight. Or a Red wizard who buys 9th level Scrolls and Power Word: Kills/Timestops or something at the start of each combat.
Hariman 10-16-07, 06:41 PM	Hmmm, true, and it would work, because everyone in this fight has 13 HD (except bards with Inspire Greatness). That's another interesting point - stuff that works only on creatures of your HD or less will become much scarier. It's a pity there's a reasonable chance your opponent will be the same alignment as you ;) I hadn't even considered that. Yeah. My bizzaro TK sorcerer Olivia is currently kicking rear and taking names in Demonweb. <snip> Olivia'd only do well in a cage match vs opponents who don't know her. A wizard prepared for her stuff would win. I'm not sure how a sorc designed for this kind of combat would do, but you can burn spell slots really fast with quicken spell in that level range and most things a wiz can do, a sorc can do with purchase of scrolls, if access to everything is open. Could we get a peek at this mysterious spell list? It sounds like you've planned it out really well to cover a lot of bases. A lot of Cage Matches I have seen don't allow the replenishing of resources between rounds. Otherwise Wizards will _always_ win. In which Case a specialist Gnomish Fatespinner/ShadowCraft Mage with School Focuses up the yahoo would win every fight. Or a Red wizard who buys 9th level Scrolls and Power Word: Kills/Timestops or something at the start of each combat. Actually, I think winning Initiative is another very important thing. (All spellcasters with the ability to cast it would likely have nerveskitter.) But, yeah, if you're allowed to walk in to the arena with a dozen buffs up the only defense the opponent has is Reciprocal Gyre. That also does heavily favors prepared casters. The arcane duel rules in Complete Arcane only allow a few rounds for buffing, and then the fight is on.
solbergb 10-16-07, 07:56 PM	I hadn't even considered that. Could we get a peek at this mysterious spell list? It sounds like you've planned it out really well to cover a lot of bases. Its a mix of metamagic and spells, and way off topic but I can give the gist of it. It wasn't all planned out, some came in due to events in game that changed her direction. All of the noncantrip spells and many of the cantrip spells can be traced to a handful of "Vetha" spells (a weird Rhenee prestige class) with changes in targeting, area, etc, although explaining all of it is inappropriate in a thread where it's irrelevant. The spells are sometimes decompositions of those spells or extrapolations. She's very tightly themed. What use I make of the odd result is what makes her unique. But maybe you can get something out of the raw list. enjoy: L1 Enlarge spell, eschew materials read magic, prestidigitation, open/close, mage hand; unseen servant, tenser's disk L2 dancing lights (she was trying for magic missile the "evoker" way. She then did it right next level) wand of enlarge person L3 sculpt spell magic missile L4 mending, false life (there was a wild magic incident...never mind) L5 grease, swift fly L6 chain spell shadow binding (complete arcane version) message wand of detect secret doors L7 feather fall, gust of wind, arcane sight L8 conversion shifted shadow binding to servant horde light, evards tentacles L9 leadership (support bard) whirling blade, greater magic weapon, ottiluke's sphere wand of glitterdust L10 ghost sound, telekenesis L11 levitate, phantom steed, solid fog, wall of force dragon mask, dimension stride boots L12 retrain leadership for quicken spell, rapid metamagic analyze dwoemer swap ottiluke's sphere for mass unseen servant ============== the following is projected, she's level 12 now ============== L13 retrain swift fly and servant horde for swim and greater mage armor minor creation (or accellerated aviation), overland flight, disintegrate L14 limited wish L15 (unsure of feat, have several options) fabricate or major creation? greater dispel control weather
copperwyrmling 10-17-07, 01:09 AM	Actually, I think winning Initiative is another very important thing. (All spellcasters with the ability to cast it would likely have nerveskitter.) The problem with Nerveskitter is that it's Immediate - so it eats your swift action for the next round (i.e. no quickened spell, swift spell, activate belt of battle, etc). That's a fairly hefty penalty when you're playing a caster. The cleric version, Sign, is nicer (it triggers automatically, requiring no action, although it's only +4) - it might even be worth Limited Wishing for if you're really desperate for initiative.
copperwyrmling 10-17-07, 01:11 AM	L13 retrain swift fly and servant horde for swim and greater mage armor minor creation (or accellerated aviation), overland flight, disintegrate Why are you doing Greater Mage Armor, out of interest? It doesn't really seem like the mechanics suit Olivia (she of the AC 12 at APL 14 ;) ), although I know it's in-theme.
solbergb 10-17-07, 02:04 AM	Well, you see....Olivia got access to +0 ACP 0% spell failure +6 armor class armor for a while, and right about the time she bought her crimson dragonhide bracers that kept her from being bothered by hot weather had a side effect of providing +1 nat armor...and the bad guys also had +2 dex gloves and +1 rings and she swapped those for her gloves of arrow snaring and pretty soon she actually had enough armor class to get missed by "minion fire". And that's proved helpful. The armor also has been helpful in reinforcing her "I'm an alpha drow female" disguise...enough that they don't seem to notice that she is speaking Oerth Common until she guesses wrong on some Kn Local or Nobility thing she should really know. I figure after an adaptable's time wearing armor, Olivia'll be able to fake it with her hat of disguise better in future. And actualy ottiluke's sphere was an attempt to do "greater magic weapon" on a human that didn't come out right..... So while she can't afford the armor (it has other stuff that makes it even more expensive), she can actually afford greater mage armor and she's had several levels to figure out what she did wrong with ottiluke's sphere so in character she really should have got it right by now. (the extra hitpoint thing that GMW does to weapons she can't do except on herself and her familiar. Creatures change too much and the spell needs constant adjustment to do ablative healing. But she can add the hardness sheath at 13 without locking them in a bubble) Plus she actually is stretching to fill her last 4th level slot, so moving servant horde to mass unseen servant (moving it from L3 to L4 slot) isn't a big hardship. Going from AC12 to AC23 while spending only about 4k on pure armor class items and another 9k on items that serve purposes other than Ac but also provide AC isn't a bad exchange for one spell known. She can do battle interactives without worrying much about mooks firing arrows at her, with recitation etc it can even get high enough that mid-tier monsters miss some. Getting AC20 vs incorporeal touch is also nice (shadows are very dangerous to her) Finally, she's begrudging her swift action to fly these days, so that'll be fixed with overland flight, freeing a L2 slot to allow her to move underwater. Both spells are actually a variation of phantom steed, made "attended" so area damage spells don't destroy the mobility....but "swim" still requires the user to not be too encumbered and to actually make swimming motions for it to work well, just as phantom steed requires some ride skill to get the most out of it. If she needs to move faster and isnt' on a steed, she can violent thrust herself, if she needs to hover, she can cast quicken levitate (or precast levitate). So yeah...mostly greater mage armor is because for a while she had cheap armor and got used to it. She also really couldn't handle the weight, except that she's in a bizzare party where all of the fighters are light enough to be hurled across the battlefield accompanied by enchanted size large bolts, and the party medic/support insists on holding more of her oversized bolts to cast "align weapon" on them on demand....so she's wearing armor instead of lugging ammo for her tk.... In addition, her wand of mage armor is burning out at a ferocious rate since one of our light fighters has some monk levels. At the rate it's going it will last about till she hits level 13. She won't be shy about passing the spell out for animal companions and monks and such, or when incorporeals threaten. It's funny how adventures mess with your plans. But I guess when you get all the drow in the multiverses after you, you want some better passive defenses. Oddly enough greater mage armor was on the shortlist for my last L3 slot at one point, but the infamous Frost Elemental encounter warped my level 11 spell selection, plus Olivia needed strategic party movement options since she doens't do teleport so phantom steeds really did help that. The unparallelled tactical mobility they provide make me wonder why it wasn't even in my plan for years...I really had no idea how great it would be till I had the spell. Even if I did need two cross-class skill ranks to not fall off the steeds when hit and to guide with knees. The greater mage armor isn't as weird as the mithril sword she's packing now. That 20% off a mithril sword favor wasn't one I ever expected to use. Turns out saving two pounds is worth it to her now....and she's proficient with longswords so.... I agree on the nerveskitter comment. The swift action is important. Chain nerveskitter is one thing, and my arcane archer likes it fine (but often drops it on a spellcaster instead of himself, depends on the situation). I'm not sure I'd care for it on Olivia, even if it was in theme, which it is not.
Timlagor 10-17-07, 08:08 AM	Wonder if Hummingbirds are allowed... (combine with Elf Wizard for +8Init) I'd think MIC and Spell Compendium are essential to have a decent chance in this thing ..but then you want those anyway if you're going to keep playing 3.5. Hey..can you make a Gestalt character? :D
Mattastrophic 10-17-07, 10:14 AM	Nerveskitter is quite useful... it's targetted; just let your familiar cast it for you! Off the top of my head: +5-6 Dex +4 Heroics (Improved Init) +5 Nerveskitter +5 Warning weapon (if not, use Combat Readiness from DotU) +2 Eager weapon +4 Unicorn Heart (7th-level spell; can use Roaring armor for +4 instead) =+25-26 If you can afford it, a Luckstone will add another +1. But more importantly, score yourself a reroll or two, like a Mantle of Second Chances or a Luck Blade. And yes, +8 from Elf Wizard3 and a Hummingbird would be quite awesome, but that's quite unlikely. You can also walk around Polymorphed into a form with high Dexterity, depending on whether prebuffing with min/lvl spells is allowed. As for Sign, ideally I'd want to take a Ring of Spell Storing and let a cleric put it in there for me to use, but that's N/A for this scenario. Now, for AC, favoring the use of spells over items: 10 base +8 Greater Luminous Armor (BoED, also imposes a -4 penalty on melee attacks against you) +6 Mithral Buckler +5 +5 Dex (w/ Cat's Grace/Gloves on) +14 Polymorph (War Troll) +5 Dragonskin +3 Defending Gauntlet w/ Greater Magic Weapon (+4 at 16th CL) -1 size +1 Boots of Speed +1 Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone And I'm sure there are more bumps out there. Cast Scintillating Scales to turn that +19 natural armor bonus into Deflection, for touch AC, leaving you with AC 52, touch 38, with a -4 to attack you in melee. But honestly, we don't know enough of the rules to continue. We also don't know your judge's stance on a whole ton of rules issues. -Matt
Mattastrophic 10-17-07, 10:30 AM	But, yeah, if you're allowed to walk in to the arena with a dozen buffs up the only defense the opponent has is Reciprocal Gyre. That also does heavily favors prepared casters. Actually, Reciporcal Gyre is one of the worst possible choices in a pre-buff scenario, because any prebuffed 13th-level wizard is bringing Spell Turning. That reminds me... wearing a Caster's Glove (to prevent disarming/sundering) with a Rod of Absorption stored in it would be a VERY good idea, even though it's a large amount of your cash. Now you're immune to targetted spells and rays. Then, if you can, take Divine Oracle and hopefully prebuff with Starmantle, meaning that if you can make a DC 15 Reflex save (not hard), now you're immune to weapons, and you'll evade out of non-targetted AoE spells. Also, bring an Eternal Wand of Joyful Noise with you, and have your familiar use it. That way you can't be Silenced. Then add on Freedom Armor, so you can't be grappled. Next would probably be finding an easy way to get out of fear effects, since we don't have Heroes' Feast. What's left? -Matt
solbergb 10-17-07, 12:01 PM	Nerveskitter is quite useful... it's targetted; just let your familiar cast it for you! That would require imbue familiar with spell ability, which is banned.... ah.....but not of course in a cage match. never mind. Yeah, that's a pretty good idea.
copperwyrmling 10-17-07, 06:05 PM	Apologies for thread derailment, but we really need more details about the contest before we can work on a build, so for the moment, I'm just going to chatter about sorcerers :P The armor also has been helpful in reinforcing her "I'm an alpha drow female" disguise...enough that they don't seem to notice that she is speaking Oerth Common until she guesses wrong on some Kn Local or Nobility thing she should really know. I want to see Olivia's alpha drow female impersonation now :evillaugh Maybe I'll get a chance when we do Rise of the Spider Queen :) Plus she actually is stretching to fill her last 4th level slot, so moving servant horde to mass unseen servant (moving it from L3 to L4 slot) isn't a big hardship. Ah. L4 is Azrien's level of "I wish I had ten spells known" ;) (I'm actually contemplating Extra Spell as a L15 feat...) Going from AC12 to AC23 while spending only about 4k on pure armor class items and another 9k on items that serve purposes other than Ac but also provide AC isn't a bad exchange for one spell known. She can do battle interactives without worrying much about mooks firing arrows at her, with recitation etc it can even get high enough that mid-tier monsters miss some. Getting AC20 vs incorporeal touch is also nice (shadows are very dangerous to her) I imagine it's especially nice if Demonweb is anything like Red Hand - lots and lots of mooks. I'm seriously considering boosting Min's passive defences at L7, due to a couple of very scary experiences she's had (you know what I'm talking about, as you were GMing both times ;) ). Mage Armor + False Life + (Extended) Dragonskin would kick her AC up to respectable at APL 6-8 (23 with dragonskin, 24 when hasted), and False Life and buying a +2 Con amulet would put her average HP at 61ish counting temporaries. If she pays 2k for a ring of prot she'd be at AC 20 normally, 24 when dragonskinned, 25 when hasted - and her incorporeal touch AC would be up to 18, or 19 when hasted, which would be nice, as she's Str 6 shadowbait. Az would never have put so much effort into defence - she's always relied on winning the mobility contest and/or taking the bad guys down fast - but Min has a different (more pragmatic) personality, and has various abilities that make her want to be fairly close to the frontline ;) She's survived so far, but she's come close enough to dying that I think she would want to do something about it. Finally, she's begrudging her swift action to fly these days, so that'll be fixed with overland flight, freeing a L2 slot to allow her to move underwater. Both spells are actually a variation of phantom steed, made "attended" so area damage spells don't destroy the mobility....but "swim" still requires the user to not be too encumbered and to actually make swimming motions for it to work well, just as phantom steed requires some ride skill to get the most out of it. If she needs to move faster and isnt' on a steed, she can violent thrust herself, if she needs to hover, she can cast quicken levitate (or precast levitate). Swim is a useful spell. I might have prioritized it higher for Az if she plays water mods - for some reason, the water mods that don't indicate it in the blurb all seem to gravitate irresistibly to either my dervish (who, y'know, has five class levels devoted to doing cool stuff with slashing weapons) or Min, who is small with Str 6 and has learned several times already how bad that is when you're in a storm at sea ;) How's Quicken + Rapid Metamagic working out for you? The unparallelled tactical mobility they provide make me wonder why it wasn't even in my plan for years...I really had no idea how great it would be till I had the spell. Even if I did need two cross-class skill ranks to not fall off the steeds when hit and to guide with knees. Agreed. Phantom Steed is Az's favorite L3 spell by a long shot, and she has teleport and mass fly... She's still relying on not rolling a 1 when damaged on a steed, but I don't think she's ever actually BEEN damaged on a steed, she's never in range. Failing your guide with knees check just means you need to use one hand to hang on: not a big deal unless you're using metamagic rods.
solbergb 10-17-07, 07:27 PM	How's Quicken + Rapid Metamagic working out for you? I have to be careful not to burn out all my high level slots, especially when playing adaptables/2 rounders but it's really, really nice. So far I've quickened: open/close dancing lights message ghost sound magic missile (stripping mirror images) grease enlarged grease sculpted grease whirling blade I expect false life and gust of wind to be quickened any time now. These spells face stiff competition with guided shot, feather fall, swift fly, activating my dragon mask for see invisible and activating triple weapon capsule retainers when doing whirling blade. There's a reason I want to shuffle swift fly out and just be able to fly whenever I feel like it with overland flight, even though it's inferior in speed and maneuverability. Regarding swim, it just doesn't make sense for Olivia to lose most of her mobility options underwater. I was even contemplating Cloak of The Sea as a L6 spell, but it got squeezed out by analyze dwoemer. (I've been hosed by super-lethal magical traps more often than by being under water). Swim can also be quickened and chained (as it is not "touch" - range medium actually), which is nice. the rapid metamagic is pretty nice too, all by itself. Move actions back = more mayhem for my servant horde or ability to pull stuff out of haversack etc.
Hariman 10-17-07, 09:16 PM	I have to be careful not to burn out all my high level slots, especially when playing adaptables/2 rounders but it's really, really nice. So far I've quickened: open/close dancing lights message ghost sound magic missile (stripping mirror images) grease enlarged grease sculpted grease whirling blade I expect false life and gust of wind to be quickened any time now. These spells face stiff competition with guided shot, feather fall, swift fly, activating my dragon mask for see invisible and activating triple weapon capsule retainers when doing whirling blade. There's a reason I want to shuffle swift fly out and just be able to fly whenever I feel like it with overland flight, even though it's inferior in speed and maneuverability. Regarding swim, it just doesn't make sense for Olivia to lose most of her mobility options underwater. I was even contemplating Cloak of The Sea as a L6 spell, but it got squeezed out by analyze dwoemer. (I've been hosed by super-lethal magical traps more often than by being under water). Swim can also be quickened and chained (as it is not "touch" - range medium actually), which is nice. the rapid metamagic is pretty nice too, all by itself. Move actions back = more mayhem for my servant horde or ability to pull stuff out of haversack etc. Hmm. Makes my level 4 sorcerer's spell list of various cantrips, Glitterdust, Magic Missile, Burning hands, and Grease seem tame. (I know, it lacks variety. But all of the spells are useful, and taking burning hands was to protect from swarms.) You're lucky. According to my local DMs, Magic Missile doesn't pop mirror images. But oddly enough, swarms do. The justifications were "magic missile doesn't have an attack roll, thus it doesn't make the images pop" and "swarm damage represents many individual attacks" What weapon do you use for Whirling Blade? And how does servant horde apply to battle and other situations? (Beyond the obvious fetching and heavy lifting.)
copperwyrmling 10-18-07, 02:26 AM	Hmm. Makes my level 4 sorcerer's spell list of various cantrips, Glitterdust, Magic Missile, Burning hands, and Grease seem tame. (I know, it lacks variety. But all of the spells are useful, and taking burning hands was to protect from swarms.) It doesn't sound too bad - area damage, single-target damage, battlefield control, debuff. You'll get more versatility as you level. I think at L4 Azrien had Scorching Ray, Magic Missile, Color Spray and Mage Armor (and yeah, she hated swarms with a passion). My sorcerers' spell lists: Azrien (L14): Limited Wish, Disintegrate, Freezing Fog, Teleport, Mass Fly, Spiritwall, Enervation, Orb of Force, Evard's Black Tentacles, Assay Spell Resistance, Tongues, Greater Magic Weapon, Anticipate Teleportation, Phantom Steed, Glitterdust, See Invisibility, False Life, Rainbow Beam, Scorching Ray, Magic Missile, Feather Fall, Guided Shot, Friendly Face, Ray of Enfeeblement, + cantrips (some of these could still change - she levelled on her last AR, hasn't played since, and I marked TUs off for a spell retrain) Relevant feats: Rapid Metamagic, Empower Spell, Split Ray, Sculpt Spell, Quicken Spell Relevant items: runestaff of fire (burning hands, fireball, wall of fire each up to 3x/day by burning spell slots, can apply metamagic as normal) Min (L6): Haste, Glitterdust, Swift Fly, Grease, Silent Image, Color Spray, Magic Missile, + cantrips (she has spell focus illusion and is a gnome, and still gets some mileage out of Color Spray, although it'll probably go at L8) Relevant feats: Draconic Heritage (Copper), Draconic Breath, Spell Focus (Illusion) You're lucky. According to my local DMs, Magic Missile doesn't pop mirror images. Show them the FAQ, p78 in my version (09142007). There are a bunch of entries on Mirror Image and I think they make it pretty clear that MMs pop the images.
solbergb 10-18-07, 11:28 AM	Hmm. Makes my level 4 sorcerer's spell list of various cantrips, Glitterdust, Magic Missile, Burning hands, and Grease seem tame. (I know, it lacks variety. But all of the spells are useful, and taking burning hands was to protect from swarms.) You're lucky. According to my local DMs, Magic Missile doesn't pop mirror images. But oddly enough, swarms do. Your local DM needs to read the FAQ. It is binding in LG, and explicitly says mirror images are popped by magic missiles. This ruling has been out there almost as long as 3.5 has been around. There is no "luck" involved. Just a GM who is up on the rules of the LG campaign. Although I have played with one LG GM who said "I don't care what the FAQ says, I think it is stupid". He was a good enough GM otherwise it didn't matter. I just chased the mirror imaged "named NPC" that we weren't supposed to be fighting around with evards until he ran out of grapple defenses and teleported away.
Mattastrophic 10-18-07, 11:37 AM	Area-of-effect spells are good for getting around Mirror Image. Just ignore them, basically. The last two guys I ran into with Mirror Image, I just ran up to them and hit them with a Greater Fireburst. -Matt
solbergb 10-18-07, 11:37 AM	Hmm. " What weapon do you use for Whirling Blade? And how does servant horde apply to battle and other situations? (Beyond the obvious fetching and heavy lifting.) I used an adamantine sickle for a long time, as whirling blade was "magic missile for golems" (or other high SR targets) most of the time. Mostly since level 12 and my ruathar level I use a mithril longsword...it does a bit more damage and is flashier. Both weapons get the benefit of GMW and are equipped with triple weapon capsule retainers (ghostblight, quickfrost, quickspark on one, quicksilver, quickfrost, quickspark on teh other). Servant horde does action replacement. You use "direct the spell" move action to order them to do things. With enough servants, you can do things like light up the smokesticks you've equipped everyone in the party with for a nonmagical smokescreen, stabilize anyone down with the potions of CLW you issued to people who don't carry them, re-arm a disarmed PC, arm somebody in position for full attack with no weapon out, stand up the archer who got tripped so he can full attack, etc. A bunch of them can move people or bodies or even some terrain around. They're also pretty good for opening and closing/barring doors. The spell description for "mass unseen servant" talks about mages using it to serve an entire party, etc so it seems you can do moderately complex cooperative actions. I try not to do something I can't describe in a few words though. A move action isn't very long even for a mental visualization of what you want. In a recent fight, for example, the servants were summoned and ordered to carry the two dwarves toward me and shut the door behind them. In later rounds, when I couldn't direct them, one of the dwarves (unconscous, so always willing) kept moving toward wherever Oliva ended up, as I didn't have time to redirect the servants. I used it a lot more in the levels before I had TK and phantom steed. These days I am so mobile that the servants are usually only around if I cast them in combat, which tends to limit their use. There is some table variation around what can be done, but generally at any table I can find uses for them. The big restrictions are the 15' movement speed and the short range leash and the requirement for any manipulation of a creature or attended object to be "willing" (go out of range or do any kind of teleport type action and they all pop. You can't use the spell to help a confused or dominated friend...etc). Most tables I've played with since I got the spell restrict them to ground movement only (can't swim, can't fly, etc), but not all tables. Some let them fly, some let them move on watery or greased surfaces. The spell doesn't say exactly how they move.
solbergb 10-18-07, 11:41 AM	>Area-of-effect spells are good for getting around Mirror Image. Just ignore them, basically. Well, in this case the party had a big wad of direct damage ready to deal on the bad guy if the images were gone, and it needed my standard action to set up. So it was nice to clear them away. (I'd cleared half away in the prior turn as an afterthought while doing something else. Had I needed to clear all 7 images away in one round...whirling blade)
solbergb 10-18-07, 11:45 AM	Hmm. Makes my level 4 sorcerer's spell list of various cantrips, Glitterdust, Magic Missile, Burning hands, and Grease seem tame. (I know, it lacks variety. But all of the spells are useful, and taking burning hands was to protect from swarms.) Well, your spells are all offense, but they are at least all different offense. Hopefully your cantrips will provide some utility spells. Olivia was an unusual character in that her early focus was utility spells, with barely enough offense to help out in fights. Level 1-2 she mostly used scrolls of cheap L1 spells in combat and used her spell slots for out of combat utility. It was actually a pretty effective strategy. Levels 3-4, she just plinked with magic missile nearly every round, plus used some L1 scrolls for variety. She had a round over round damage output very similar to most archers she played with. Her abiltiy to do tenser disk and unseen servant any time she wanted, even at very low levels had all kinds of fun applications for helping the party, even in combat. (yes, putting the barbarain on a disk and swift-flying him over the sewer water to engage the enemy or putting the blind dwarf melee on the disk and directing him where to swing IS offensive spellcasting with tenser's disk....) After level 2, no party Olivia was in ever really had to worry about "balance"type challenges. After level 5, nasty liquid surfaces were generally something she could help everyone avoid too. Be aware that grease is a very helpful grapple defense. Consider scrolls or wand of enlarge....Olivia over her career has burned out a whole wand of enlarge person. (she casts it less now, so is content with a couple-three scrolls of it). As you get higher tier slots, you'll want to shift the lower tier spells into stuff that fills buffing, utility, divination, mobility - anything but raw attack spells, as most of the time (barring a nearly dead enemy) you won't accomplish anything meaningful with a low level attack spell. Grease and glitterdust are exceptions, they retain utility at higher levels - grease mostly to make enemies flatfooted, glitterdust mostly to reveal the unseen.
copperwyrmling 10-18-07, 04:18 PM	anything but raw attack spells, as most of the time (barring a nearly dead enemy) you won't accomplish anything meaningful with a low level attack spell. That's no longer true if you're stacking a lot of metamagic on the low-level spell. Several of Az's L1-2 spells are in that category, and while Globes of Invulnerability cause problems, I've run into 1-2 of those in three and a half years of play. (Burke seemed to like Az's 99pt metamagicked scorching ray in Drowning By Numbers ;), and while my empowered split rays of enfeeblement seem to always end up being redundant in games I play with your group, on other APL 14 tables they've been extremely useful.) But yes, if you want to use low-level spells for meaningful offence you need to plan them in conjunction with your metamagic.
Mattastrophic 10-18-07, 05:10 PM	Myself, I still use Lesser Orbs and Ray of Enfeeblement all the time. I like to prep an Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement in a 3rd slot, so it can either be Quickened or Maximized depending on the situation and on which rod I'm willing to use. 1st-level spells also conserve resources, letting me use offensive spells even on easy combats, without draining my more important spells. When the combat's over, I'll just reload them all with Pearls I, leaving my stronger spells for more worthy matters. -Matt
copperwyrmling 10-18-07, 05:23 PM	Myself, I still use Lesser Orbs and Ray of Enfeeblement all the time. I like to prep an Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement in a 3rd slot, so it can either be Quickened or Maximized depending on the situation and on which rod I'm willing to use. 1st-level spells also conserve resources, letting me use offensive spells even on easy combats, without draining my more important spells. When the combat's over, I'll just reload them all with Pearls I, leaving my stronger spells for more worthy matters. Yeah... you play a prep-caster. When you play a high-level sorcerer, resource conservation is mostly for other people ;) (at least up to the point where you get Quicken - Azrien nearly burned out her top two tiers of spells in White Plume due to being Quicken-happy) I don't think I've used a slot lower than L4 on direct offence since getting Quicken - before then, she would use L3 slots for sculpted glitterdust (now she'll use a L7 slot for quickened sculpted glitterdust instead: actions are more important than spell slots). LG usually has at most three combats/day: it's almost impossible to burn through all a sorcerer's high-level slots unless you're using two high-level slots every round, and unlike for a prep-caster, using spells doesn't reduce your remaining options until you've used ALL your top-tier slots.
solbergb 10-18-07, 07:42 PM	But yes, if you want to use low-level spells for meaningful offence you need to plan them in conjunction with your metamagic. My point was low level attack spells IN LOW LEVEL ATTACK SLOTS, don't get much use except on crippled enemies. Of course they are still effective with metamagic. But you need some other way to burn those low level slots - usually this is with buffs, swift action spells or utility magic.
solbergb 10-18-07, 07:44 PM	LG usually has at most three combats/day: it's almost impossible to burn through all a sorcerer's high-level slots unless you're using two high-level slots every round, and unlike for a prep-caster, using spells doesn't reduce your remaining options until you've used ALL your top-tier slots. Even in demonweb pits, I exited two "very long days" with a few top tier spell slots....enough to fight one really hard battle still. I tend toward an even burn of spell slots with Olivia. I just use different tiers of slots for different things. If I see a tier with a lot of slots left, I tend to prioritize spells I can cast from there if multiple options exist. When I run out (which does happen but it is very rare) I tend to run out very suddenly, all at once.
copperwyrmling 10-18-07, 08:41 PM	My point was low level attack spells IN LOW LEVEL ATTACK SLOTS, don't get much use except on crippled enemies. Of course they are still effective with metamagic. But you need some other way to burn those low level slots - usually this is with buffs, swift action spells or utility magic. Very true. I just wanted to clarify - I was pretty sure I knew what you meant but I wasn't sure if it'd be clear to someone playing a low-level sorc. Even in demonweb pits, I exited two "very long days" with a few top tier spell slots....enough to fight one really hard battle still. I tend toward an even burn of spell slots with Olivia. I just use different tiers of slots for different things. If I see a tier with a lot of slots left, I tend to prioritize spells I can cast from there if multiple options exist. When I run out (which does happen but it is very rare) I tend to run out very suddenly, all at once. Azrien tends to burn out all her L3 slots and about half her L1,2,4 slots on long-lasting spells, keeping the top two tiers free for in-combat use (the leftover L1-2 spells are for guided shot, feather fall, etc). In White Plume - which was my first game with Quicken, and was also a Core Special with double ELs - she burned through all her L6 slots, all her L4s, and I think all but two of her L5s. A lot of that was experimenting with Quicken to see what she could do, though ;) (stuff like "I cast my main spell, cast quickened invis, fly away" to get out of the reach-monsters' full attack area after the tanks ran away and left her standing out the front, rather than spending her whole action getting to a safe position with teleport) In the next game I played with Quicken, which was a regular LG mod, she used it with abandon and still didn't come close to running out.
Mattastrophic 10-19-07, 12:55 PM	Yeah... you play a prep-caster. When you play a high-level sorcerer, resource conservation is mostly for other people ;) 95% of the time it ends up being superficial conservation, though, because I have an uncanny ability to overestimate Living Greyhawk modules. I think "this can't be the main fight," and then the mod ends. Ah well. But in reality, even with three encounters in one day, I can at most expect to cast maybe... eleven spells in combat, three of them out of a Quicken Rod, then the random Guided Shot or Distract Assailant? It's mostly a practice of not burning the, say, Disintegrate in the Random Thug Attack, so when the Spell Turret shows up I can zap it. Leaving some slots empty also lets me make prep decisions with more information. (Ex: "That last fight required the Mass Fly, I think I'll memorize another...") Then Alacritous Cogitation gives the wizard ultimate spontaneity, as he has a whole book of spells to choose from on the fly. ("You know, I really could use a Ghost Trap right about now...") -Matt
solbergb 10-19-07, 02:11 PM	To Matt's point....I tend to play all my characters in LG, be they prep casters, spont casters, people with x/day abilities in a "use it or lose it" mode. Ie, I'd rather blow my x/day abilities on an early encounter than wait for the mythical "final encounter". Works really well in the mods where you get one encounter/day. Works pretty well in the "long day" modules too, as a quicker defeat of an early encounter means more team resources for later encounters AND often more roleplay time. Plus in some mods, the obligatory thug encounter IS the hard encoutner. Even in adaptables I tend to burn resources fast, although some encounters are so easy that x/day abilities aren't used or casters use low level 'mopup' spells. The bigger difference between prep caster and spont caster is that it isn't so much "I'll burn 12 spells a day" but you don't know WHICH 12 spells you'll need, or whether you'll need some more than once so you prep more. You "save" that empowered fireball because while it would help here, you don't really NEED it to win. With a spont caster, he can burn his 12 spells in combat and still have all the same options he had before he burnt any. He'll just fire off that empowered fireball and not worry about the next fight as long as he doesn't burn his last 5+ spell slot.
Mattastrophic 10-19-07, 03:47 PM	To Matt's point....I tend to play all my characters in LG, be they prep casters, spont casters, people with x/day abilities in a "use it or lose it" mode. I'm getting better at it, though. I was raised on East Coast battle interactives, so my definition of skilled resource management was built on seven encounters/day, but I'm slowly becoming more willing to throw a random Arc Lightning or Freezing Fog, especially now that I'm at the APLs where encounters can be decided in one spell. It also makes me feel much better about burning through several castings of Nerveskitter and Combat Readiness, as these are encounters where Quickened spells would only lead to the other players not getting to kill anything. A couple of Pearls I later and I'm only down one spell after it's over, on top of spending renewable resources to ensure I go first and thus win the situation before the bad guys can kill us. The bigger difference between prep caster and spont caster is that it isn't so much "I'll burn 12 spells a day" but you don't know WHICH 12 spells you'll need, or whether you'll need some more than once so you prep more. And that, I submit, is the beauty of playing a Wizard over a Sorcerer: When I finish the module after finding myself perfectly armed with the right tool for every situation that came up. It's not necessarily knowing about which twelve you'll need, but about knowing that you've prepared the correct twelve in your daily arsenal. When I prepare correctly, I don't need a spell twice. Sorcerers can't do that; their toolbox is too small. Sorcerers are generalists who don't have that daily test of skill. They can't modify their daily spell list based on party composition or scenario. They DEFINITELY can't leave slots open and fill them on the fly. Thus, they can't succeed at having just the right spells for the scenario and so they can't prove much more effective when all is said and done. ("So what if you have seventeen different varieties of Fireball; they're all the wrong spell!") A Wizard may have less spells/day (well, not by much, after specialization, grey elf Int boost, Pearls, etc), but those each of those spells mean so much more. Where the Sorcerer might have a lot of degenerate, all-purpose spells, the Wizard can prepare the right one for the job, and thus only needs one. And then, any desired spontaneity is covered by Pearls, wands, scrolls, staves, metamagic rods, and Alacritous Cogitation, because accidents do happen. Where a Wizard can spend cash (or a feat, with AlacCog) and be an uber-Sorcerer, a Sorcerer does not have the option to be an uber-Wizard. On top of the Wizard being able to do everything the Sorcerer can and more, Sorcerers get fewer feats, they have no +Cha race, they can't use Pearls*, they have to buy scrolls to use Craft Wondrous effectively, they're more reliant on metamagic (which consumes more feats), they have to spend an additional feat to use Quicken Spell and metamagic rods effectively, and they get so few skills compared to the high-Int Wizard. But anyways, with LG and 3.5 ending, a discussion like this is impractical, unless someone really is reading this and kicking around creating a brand-new arcanist and playing it all the way to 15 in one year. My caster is also suboptimized, so I guess I can't put my money where my mouth is, either, ha. -Matt *Yes, Mementos Magica do exist. Pearls let a Wizard fill a Sorcerer's role, casting the same spell several times a day, while Sorcerers would need unslotted, stackable items that grant more spells known to do the opposite.
MwaO 10-19-07, 05:20 PM	*Yes, Mementos Magica do exist. Pearls let a Wizard fill a Sorcerer's role, casting the same spell several times a day, while Sorcerers would need unslotted, stackable items that grant more spells known to do the opposite. You mean Runestaffs? Haven't seen one yet, but they're likely out there somewhere. I think each of them has their challenges. A Sorcerer is more difficult to build well, because if you make a couple of bad choices, you're stuck with it for a while. Where a Wizard is a lot more forgiving. On the other hand, there are combats where you want to cast the exact same spell 3 times in a row and the Wizard, at best, has to pull out a Pearl to get it back, and the Sorcerer just keeps firing away.
Mattastrophic 10-19-07, 06:19 PM	You mean Runestaffs? Haven't seen one yet, but they're likely out there somewhere. Fair enough, though not an ideal solution. On the other hand, there are combats where you want to cast the exact same spell 3 times in a row and the Wizard, at best, has to pull out a Pearl to get it back, and the Sorcerer just keeps firing away. That's the thing... a wizard, played well, doesn't have to cast the exact same spell three times in a row. And if he does, well, he either prepares it multiple times, like I sometimes do with Alter Fortune, or can make multiple spells fit the situation, like in my own case Arc Lightning (no-SR, funky areas) vs. Fireball (Lesser Maximizable, Lesser Quickenable sphere) vs. Greater Fireburst (raw damage) vs. Scorching Ray (Lesser Maximizable, Lesser Quickenable surgical strike) vs. Lightning Bolt (Lesser Maximizable, Lesser Quickenable line) vs. Orb of Fire (no-SR, save vs. dazed), or in the case of movement control, Wall of Force (pure awesome) vs. Freezing Fog (slower to get out of) vs. Refusal (hold in place) vs. Bands of Steel (Lesser Quickenable, hold in place) vs. Ray of Ice (Lesser Quickenable, hold in place) vs. Freezing Glance (Will save, hold in place). But with the right spells prepped, I never need the exact same spell three times in a row. And with the right spells prepped, combat's most often over before round three, many times decided on round one. -Matt
solbergb 10-19-07, 06:36 PM	I see a lot of wizards on the boards make those claims, but in game a wizard with perfect spell selection is as rare as the sorcerer whose selection is so narrow he's only got one option or none. It happens, but it's rare. I could be egotistical and say it would happen more often if I was the wizard, but my experience playing my cleric, my druid and my 3.0 illusionist is that it just ain't so. Most of the time I have the spells I THOUGHT would be best, but situations aren't what I expected so they're just "pretty good" spells rather than "the best" spell. Ie...not that different from the sorcerer situation, but with the extra worry about WHEN to spend the spell. Sorcerers of course have the everyday challenge of figuring out how to adapt their spells known to every situation. Much as wizards hate to admit it, there are rather a lot of situations where being able to cast a buff on every party member...or twice...is useful, or a situation where multiple castings of a utility spell can do things very unexpected, or situations where simply casting short duration spells every possible situation where they *might* come up out of combat really changes things. Wizards can't do that, at least not with spells they don't have a bag full of pearls for. They often do have really good spells, but they're a lot more careful with them. Copper Wyrmling has a tendency with both her sorcs to cast haste and/or fly pre-emptively, at the slightest hint that a combat may be coming. My own sorcerer has used arcane sight cast whenever I have the slightest idea it might come in handy to devastating effect. She also kept utility buffs running all day as early as level 3. Both of our sorcerers also used swift action spells much sooner than wizards generally do (swift fly especially) A well played sorcerer will generally cast 2x as many spells in a day as a prep caster (and still have the same options in one more fight as he had at the beginning of the day). There is a power in that. There aren't any "wasted" slots. There is no concept of "saving" a spell for later. Quantity can have a quality all of its own. It also means you only need to be really smart away from the table,when picking spells and metamagic. Many prep casters fall far short of potential due to inability to pick the right spells at the table (or as quite often happens, the "generic spell mix" they start with is the one they have to use for the full adventure....the adventure starts and ends on the same day)
Mattastrophic 10-19-07, 06:56 PM	I see a lot of wizards on the boards make those claims, but in game a wizard with perfect spell selection is as rare as the sorcerer whose selection is so narrow he's only got one option or none. I think this is where we hit the "let's call it even" part. Personally, I happen to enjoy aspiring to perfect spell selection; it's beautiful to see a well-crafted daily prep come together. The Wizard presents a much more engaging mental exercise to me. Though, with Alacritous Cogitation, a Wizard constantly has his perfect spell prepared. -Matt
MwaO 10-19-07, 07:55 PM	But with the right spells prepped, I never need the exact same spell three times in a row. And with the right spells prepped, combat's most often over before round three, many times decided on round one. With the right spells known and metamagic feats, the same thing happens. A Sorcerer might need to cast the exact same spell three times in a row, but on the other hand, I've known a lot of Wizards to overthink their spell selection and/or come up short for the 2nd or 3rd combat. That rarely happens with Sorcerers.
Mattastrophic 10-19-07, 08:24 PM	With the right spells known and metamagic feats, the same thing happens. A Sorcerer might need to cast the exact same spell three times in a row, but on the other hand, I've known a lot of Wizards to overthink their spell selection and/or come up short for the 2nd or 3rd combat. That rarely happens with Sorcerers. So in a roundabout way, you're saying that it takes a certain practiced skill for a Wizard to not come up short for the second or third combat. The fact that such a skill is required does not make the Sorcerer superior. That would be like saying that Chess is inferior to Checkers solely because Chess requires more practice to become proficient. -Matt
magebeast 10-19-07, 11:58 PM	So in a roundabout way, you're saying that it takes a certain practiced skill for a Wizard to not come up short for the second or third combat. The fact that such a skill is required does not make the Sorcerer superior. That would be like saying that Chess is inferior to Checkers solely because Chess requires more practice to become proficient. -Matt I think it's probably more like comparing Risk to Chess or something. Related, but really different things to be good at.
MwaO 10-20-07, 12:23 AM	So in a roundabout way, you're saying that it takes a certain practiced skill for a Wizard to not come up short for the second or third combat. The fact that such a skill is required does not make the Sorcerer superior.. Yes, it does, at least in this facet - that Wizards have to use resource management and Sorcerers don't usually is a big advantage for a Sorcerer. Even the best played Wizards are going to find themselves stuck without a top-tier spell to cast at some point. Using a very expensive rod to stretch your low level spells is an example. The Sorcerer simply doesn't care if the combat is easy or not - just throw the best spell for the job.
magebeast 10-20-07, 02:14 AM	Yes, it does, at least in this facet - that Wizards have to use resource management and Sorcerers don't usually is a big advantage for a Sorcerer. Even the best played Wizards are going to find themselves stuck without a top-tier spell to cast at some point. Using a very expensive rod to stretch your low level spells is an example. The Sorcerer simply doesn't care if the combat is easy or not - just throw the best spell for the job. All the talk on these forums is really, really making me ready for Red Hand to be over. We have the final combat remaining, and after that I can play some cores where conserving my resources doesn't matter so much. The fact that I'm slightly underlevel doesn't help, nor does our bizarre table composition. In any case I'm looking forward to burning my spells any which way.
copperwyrmling 10-20-07, 02:19 AM	All the talk on these forums is really, really making me ready for Red Hand to be over. We have the final combat remaining, and after that I can play some cores where conserving my resources doesn't matter so much. The fact that I'm slightly underlevel doesn't help, nor does our bizarre table composition. In any case I'm looking forward to burning my spells any which way. Oh, believe me, it's wonderful - and not just for spellcasters, but for anyone with times/day abilities. I played a dervish through Red Hand, and he reached L10 (i.e. three dervish dances / day) just after finishing it. Suddenly I could dervish dance in every combat, rather than two fights out of seven or eight. Such a nice change :)
_metz_ 10-20-07, 02:36 AM	Oh, believe me, it's wonderful - and not just for spellcasters, but for anyone with times/day abilities. I played a dervish through Red Hand, and he reached L10 (i.e. three dervish dances / day) just after finishing it. Suddenly I could dervish dance in every combat, rather than two fights out of seven or eight. Such a nice change :) I am really looking forward to playing Red Hand now I have the TUs to do it. On the sorcerers vs Wizards, I think a Sorcerer is really good in LG, because a well built sorcerer can handle most situations, several times a day. LG mods can't be contingent on being able to cast that one spell, and as such the use of the wizard is somewhat reduced. Also Wizards get less opportunity to abuse scroll making so much... Plus Haste/Mass Fly for all three encounters in the one day can be EXTREMELY useful...
magebeast 10-20-07, 02:51 AM	Plus Haste/Mass Fly for all three encounters in the one day can be EXTREMELY useful... Hmm. I should probably look into picking up haste now that I'm almost done sharing a table with two wizards and two clerics, and a spring attacker who wouldn't benefit from the extra attack.
Maesto 10-20-07, 02:52 AM	Mmm... ok, I've read enough of this, it's time to wade in. I come up on the wizard side of the fence, although I can certainly appreciate the sorceror's point of view. Every now and again, the wizard will prepare exactly the spells that they need. I put a fair bit of thought into the preparation for Shadows of a Dread Spiral (APL 14 with a 15th level wizard), and the combats turned out very nicely - every combat was decided after a single spell (with the exception of the dragon at the end - that one took a few spells to get under control. Damn, shadow dragons suck on the plane of shadow!). The same didn't work quite so well for City of Brass at APL 14; for once, I just wanted three forcecages. Also, a party with 4 rogues is not ideal when you cast your one spell that decides the combat, but lack the fighters to mop up for you. The combats I hate the most as a wizard are against strange creatures that require the same spell over and over again, preferably metamagiked. E.g, will'o'whisps and guecubu (strangely enough, both just want magic missile or orb of force, and man I hate the latter of those two). I think that a lot of wizards fall into the trap of always preparing the same spell list (and I'm in that boat too); then we just become second rate sorcerors. Furthermore, wizards don't usually put as much thought into the versatility of spells as sorcerors do - we just think of preparing a different spell that does what we want it to, not bending the original spell to emulate it. However, unless the party wizard is holding all of the "get out of jail" cards (anybody who put a lot of thought into preparation for playing 'Lost But Not Forgotten' understands what I mean by this), which he shouldn't be doing unless he's the sole high level caster for the party, he should always be able to contribute meaningfully in some manner. The other thing I think wizards need to realise is that they're always going to be outdamaged by sorcerors. If you try to compete in the damage field, you're going to pull up short, simply because all that you ever want to do is cast the same spells over and over again. The power of playing a wizard is the larger spell selection - you should be able to use that to contribute more than just damage. This leads me to the other kind of combat that annoys me as a wizard - 8 of the same critter, all with x hundred hitpoints each. Sure, you're almost guaranteed to disable one a round, possibly two if you're lucky, but at some point, you just want to output some raw damage and get it over and done with. The other nifty feature of the sorceror is the ability to buff all day long. Often the entire party. Eventually the wizard can catch up through use of pearls, but it's a hard (and expensive) task. I think I'll grant this one to the sorcerors; it is highly taxing on a wizard to phantom steed everybody, to GMW everybody, to have see invis going all day, to have heroism going all day, to mage armour everybody, and so on. I think the wizard's counter to this is in their ability to run some of the long-term buffs that would eat up a precious high level spell-known for a sorceror, but only eat up a single high level spell slot for the wizard. Such spells include: overland flight, detect scrying, anticipate teleportation (normal or greater), Rary's mnemonic enhancer, and contingency (as well as control weather, if you like messing with boxed text). At level 13+, energy immunity can work wonders also (I've always found fire to be best, strangely enough). I also recommend grabbing rods of extend - about three lesser and one normal works well (assuming you find access). Some long term buffs only need preparation every other day then. With judicious timing, your extended heroism spell will last three hours, your extended see invisibility will last three hours, and that's really all the time you need them to be running for, most of the time. If you waste your heroism on a combat that doesn't eventuate, then meh - you weren't going to cast it in combat anyway. See invis not quite so cool, you may need that later, but you were going to pearl that back anyway, right? Using open slots, Rary's mnemonic enhancer, and lesser extend rods, you can usually single-handedly phantom steed the entire party overnight by burning slots over two days if you decide that you really need to. If you see a rod of lesser chain spell - grab it. Think - chained nerveskitter (if you get access), chained GMW, chained delay death (destiny domain cleric), chained grease/shatter/binding winds/keen/weapon of impact/phantasmal assailants... all fun fun fun =) Finally, I think that the joy of playing a wizard is what you can do with them out of combat. How many combat spells do you _need_ to get through a module? When you're not preparing for the absolute worst, combat wise, you can select a really fun array of other spells, which can interact either really well or really badly with the module ;-) Ok, I think that's enough of my rant. Overall, I can appreciate what a sorceror can output, and at times, I believe that a sorceror will easily outpace a wizard. However, I think a wizard who thinks out their spell selection based on the party's capabilities should be able to contribute equally (if not more) effectively to the party, albeit in a different manner, under the caveat that at times, they will simply be outshone, and there's nothing you can do about it. P.S. I have no experience with alacritous cogitation - is it all it's cracked up to be?
JamesMaissen 10-20-07, 04:06 AM	On the sorcerers vs Wizards, I think a Sorcerer is really good in LG, because a well built sorcerer can handle most situations, several times a day. Also Wizards get less opportunity to abuse scroll making so much... Thought I'd throw in my 2 cents as I think that LG distorts the wizard-sorcerer balance equation. First I think that Wizards and Sorcerers are different creatures. People tend to try to play one like the other and that's as doomed to failure as thinking a Sublime Cord is a Sorcerer. Just because they all share the same spell list doesn't make them close to one another. If you confuse yourself into playing one like the other then you won't be getting it's full strength. Second I think that in a living campaign a sorcerer suffers from random party mixes more than a wizard. A wizard, with a decent spell book, can adapt his spell selection to a completely new party without great loss. A sorcerer's strength of reacting to the immediate situation is curtailed here because they cannot adapt their spells known to a drastically different party. This hinders choices of spells known that could otherwise be tailored to a more static group of characters. Finally on scrolls, I see LG's system of being limited to the DMG random treasure table on scrolls as a slap against sorcerers. Likewise the gold resource management against high end consumables adds in here. In a more open environment a sorcerer could augment spells known (which start being real painful at the high levels) with high end utility scrolls. But sorcerers do have some advantages in LG over wizards. They can spam see invisibility and similar spells to make up for LG's ban on permanency. Though the same is problematic with xp costing spells because LG's arbitrary limitation on that. -James
solbergb 10-22-07, 12:01 PM	I think it distorts the relationship too, but generally in favor of sorcerers. Although, if the sorc picks the same spells as wizards do, the random party composition can hurt them if multiple sorcs show up (although sometimes, 6 fireballs cast in 2 rounds solves a lot of prolbems) things that favor sorcs in LG: 1. Most encounters are reactive, and many happen without time to reshuffle spells 2. Some of the strengths of wizards to control the timing of encounters (divinations, strategic movement, extradimensional sleeping spaces) are squeezed out by the structure of the modules and the time pressure of the gaming slots 3. The wizard will rarely have time to truly adapt his spell mix to the party composition at the beginning of the slot. He won't really know what anyone does or how effective they are until the first combat happens (and maybe not then, if it goes fast). This is very much unlike a home campaing. 4. Ready availability of L1-4 scrolls plugs most holes in a sorcerer's spell mix, especially when combined with limited encounters before restocking is possible. Things that favor wizards in LG compared to home campaign 1. 3 encounters per day max, and often only 1-2 2. crafting downtime on demand 3. the sorc can't pick spells known to complement a known party mix, being assured that somebod else will plug a hole. 4. crafting actually gets you ahead of the gold/level curve instead of GM just readjusting for whatever you made. this helps pay for spellbooks etc. I agree they're about equal. I think wizards are harder to play at the table and sorcerers require a more careful "build" at levelup time. Other than that, I've seen little to choose from with either at the table. Both can do the arcane caster role, but they do it differently.
Hariman 10-22-07, 08:54 PM	But anyways, with LG and 3.5 ending, a discussion like this is impractical, unless someone really is reading this and kicking around creating a brand-new arcanist and playing it all the way to 15 in one year. My caster is also suboptimized, so I guess I can't put my money where my mouth is, either, ha. It's possible. Greyhawk Ruins, Red Hand of Doom or Barrow of the Forgotten King, a few regionals or cores, and then the higher level Greyhawk Adventure. A LOT of people have mentioned that: "Sorcerers will have that one exact spell many times when it is needed, wizards usually don't." I have direct experience with this. My sorcerer literally carried a mod with burning hands. (The tanks pitched in, but burning hands was crucial.) My rogue wizard, who was two levels higher at the time, probably wouldn't have even prepped Burning hands ONCE. My wizard couldn't have met the 4 to 5 times in one day needed in that mod. BUT, my sorcerer can't even cast most of the spells on my wizard's list. He can't prepare his spells and loses his move action if he uses a metamagic feat. Heck, I'm giving my sorcerer Infernal Sorcerer Howl just to add an extra attack option. My wizard will get metamagic school focus so he can make his conjurations stronger via metamagic. I have seen a sorcerer from my area make more than one mod a cake walk for the party. And I have seen wizards do the same. I play a wizard who might be just as well off as a sorcerer, as he used to rely on a very small selection of spells. I'm trying to expand his spells prepped list, as I've had the worst luck with Ranged Touch Attacks lately. On a side note: Alacritous Cogitation is for those moments when you say "Oh, I have the PERFECT spell for that but it's not prepped." Spells like that include Remove Blindness, Forcecage, Dispel Magic, Protection From Evil, Mass Resist Energy, a spell that a creature is weak against, (an Ice Spell for a Fire subtype creature) an other such spells. If you don't have one of those moments, then Alacritous Cogitation wastes a move action when you cast your last high level spell. But if you NEED a certain spell, then Alacritous Cogitation is worth far more than a move action.
copperwyrmling 10-22-07, 10:11 PM	I have direct experience with this. My sorcerer literally carried a mod with burning hands. Swarms? I hate swarms :mad: He can't prepare his spells and loses his move action if he uses a metamagic feat. When you can, take Rapid Metamagic. Best Sorcerer Feat EVAR ;) Mass Resist Energy This one is Closed sadly :weep:
Hariman 10-23-07, 04:13 AM	Swarms? I hate swarms :mad: When you can, take Rapid Metamagic. Best Sorcerer Feat EVAR ;) This one is Closed sadly :weep: 1: No, it wasn't swarms. Burning hands was just the spell needed to counter what was hindering us. (Active mod, avoiding spoilers.) Also, the damage output was good enough that it took more than one enemy out. (or at least softened them up.) 2: Of course. Quicken + Rapid Metamagic = Killer. I'll be playing a beguiler who I might give Quicken Spell, Rapid Metamagic AND Practical Metamagic Quicken. (A sorcerer with +3 Quickened spells.) If I can get him to a high enough level. 3: I second the :weep:, but I'm sure you get the idea.