Ideas for Druid Cohort? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Ideas for Druid Cohort? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lightblade
02-20-08, 01:30 PM Hi. I've got a 13th level gnomish Bard* that took leadership back at Gencon when he found access to a NG Whisper Gnome cohort. However, I haven't statted her out yet, and now that DDXP is coming, i figure I ought to create the build.

Base Idea: Druid 11: Elite array: Str 10 Dex 8 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 15 Cha 13
After Racial Modifiers and points: Str 8 Dex 10 Con 16 Int 12 Wis 17 Cha 11

Feats: Spell Focus Conjuration, Augment Summoning, Natural Spell?
Perhaps some reserve feats? Storm Bolt is nice, perhaps the Polymorph-based one if Baleful Polymorph is in the Polymorph subschool.
Also I'm thinking about Practiced Spellcaster, solely because inspire greatness will give her 2 HD every combat.

The idea is more of Wildshaper/Summoner and less of a battlecaster, so she'll be wearing an amulet of health and have not-great save DCs.

My main character will soon craft a vest of Legends, and combined with inspirational boost and badge of valor, will be putting out a +5 Inspire Courage. Also, he'll shortly be able to inspire greatness in 3 allies per use (as a move action thanks to Harmonize, while casting other spells melodically). I figured that a cohort that could bring additional combatants to the field (and perhaps her as well) would be a good synergy.

Thoughts? Feat choices?

* Actually, I'm a Bard 7 / Rogue 2 / Druid 1 / Sublime Chord 1 / FoL 2, and planning to grab another 2 levels of FoL on the way out.
JamesMaissen
02-20-08, 02:08 PM Base Idea: Druid 11: Elite array: Str 10 Dex 8 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 15 Cha 13
After Racial Modifiers and points: Str 8 Dex 10 Con 16 Int 12 Wis 17 Cha 11

Feats: Spell Focus Conjuration, Augment Summoning, Natural Spell?
Perhaps some reserve feats? Storm Bolt is nice, perhaps the Polymorph-based one if Baleful Polymorph is in the Polymorph subschool.
Also I'm thinking about Practiced Spellcaster, solely because inspire greatness will give her 2 HD every combat.

I figured that a cohort that could bring additional combatants to the field (and perhaps her as well) would be a good synergy.

I would go with Rapid Spell and Metamagic School Focus: Conjuration. You get to memorize 3 rapid summons without taking the level bump for them.

Also I would get an ioun stone for +2 wis to bump the 20WIS to 22 to get the bonus 6th level spell.

-James
delewobmesid
02-20-08, 02:40 PM James is right about the rapid summoning (you 'need' the speed bump(s) the first round, not the second). that would make the feats
1 spell focus conjuration,
3 augment summoning,
6 rapid summoning,
9 meta magic scholl focus conjuration.
12 practices spell caster or a reserve feat

Load the co-hort up with a best common access they can afford and cut lose (but isn't that co-hort a +1 level adjusted character? making it a 10th lvl druid?)
Lightblade
02-20-08, 02:49 PM James is right about the rapid summoning (you 'need' the speed bump(s) the first round, not the second). that would make the feats
1 spell focus conjuration,
3 augment summoning,
6 rapid summoning,
9 meta magic scholl focus conjuration.
12 practices spell caster or a reserve feat

Load the co-hort up with a best common access they can afford and cut lose (but isn't that co-hort a +1 level adjusted character? making it a 10th lvl druid?)

Whisper Gnomes have a +0 LA, which makes them on the strong end of the race spectrum. Another neat thing I wanted to take advantage of was that their racial silence SLA can be used while wildshaped. Sure, that will put my bardsong into the 5 rounds of lingering for the cohort/animal buddies, but denying an enemy spellcaster verbal components while in the face of a dire lion (dire bear at next level) seems like it will be quite powerful.
copperwyrmling
02-20-08, 04:23 PM I'd probably take Natural Spell as the L12 feat, if you expect her to spend much time in wildshape: I think being able to cast while wildshaped would be more useful than +2 CL when you're inspiring greatness, since summon spells aren't very CL-dependent. Empower Spell might also be something to consider - since you have such good multi-target buffs, using MMSF to cheaply empower 1d3 and 1d4+1 summons might be worthwhile, and all healing spells and Arc of Lightning are also conjuration and work well with Empower.

I was about to suggest swapping the stats around for more Dex (initiative is good), but if she's going to be wildshaped a lot then her natural Str and Dex are irrelevant.
Lightblade
02-20-08, 06:42 PM I feel like she'd be wildshaping in combat after summoning / buffing, so i'm not sure that Natural Spell is all that important. You're probably right that it's more important than the +2 CL, though. Not sure how it racks up against some of the Reserve Feats: the polymorphing one seems quite solid, if baleful polymorph indeed belongs to the Polymorph subschool. With Inspire Courage + Inspire Greatness, the druid should probably be spending its turns tearing foes limb from limb.

As for empower, i'm not convinced that it's worth it for the summons. Since I still lose a level to the metamagic, i'd be getting [1, 3, 4] instead of [2, 3, 4, 5] in the d3 case, which is a net loss. The d4+1 case may fare better, but i dunno if [3, 4, 6, 7] of level n - 1 beats [2 3 4 5] of level n.

For the healing and damage Empower may fare better, but I feel like I'd spend my 3 slots of cheap metamagic all on prepared rapid summons.
boolean
02-20-08, 07:58 PM There's one big problem I can see with this build: how will the other players at the table feel about this character?

A wildshaping, summoning, buffing druid is a pretty complicated character to run. Getting the math right, running the druid's actions _and_ the animal companion's actions _and_ the summoned creatures' actions can take up a lot of table time.

Add in the fact that this is a cohort: It might take you even longer because of a lack of experience with the build (playing a character up from first to tenth teaches you a lot about how to play it quickly and effectively), and, your attention is split by running your primary character as well.

If you mostly play at local game days and home games, I'd recommend you check with your regular players and see what they think. If you mostly play at conventions, I'd pick a different cohort.
Lightblade
02-20-08, 08:22 PM Those are some good points.

I wouldn't be entirely fresh playing such a character. My main was actually a Druid 6 / Bard 2 / X before the druid respec, so the idea of buffing the animal companions / summons with spells and songs is fairly old hat to me. Also, I do miss the higher level druidic abilities somewhat, and a cohort could fill that void.

Figuring out how to do so effectively without taking up too much of the limelight is a reasonable concern. I could limit summons to a single monster per battle, or even only pull them out if things look dicey. Then again, if summoning is a back-up plan my feat selection should probably change to reflect that.

For those of you that have played with Gimbo at one point or another: how would you feel about such a cohort?
copperwyrmling
02-20-08, 08:25 PM As for empower, i'm not convinced that it's worth it for the summons. Since I still lose a level to the metamagic, i'd be getting [1, 3, 4] instead of [2, 3, 4, 5] in the d3 case, which is a net loss. The d4+1 case may fare better, but i dunno if [3, 4, 6, 7] of level n - 1 beats [2 3 4 5] of level n.

*nods* I wasn't sure if it was worth it either, I just threw it in as an idea. I remembered using it in a summoner build I did a while back, but I think that was an alienist, who just wanted as many pseudonatural dire weasels as possible ;) I think your analysis here makes sense.

Fast Wildshape, if you move the 13 from Cha to Dex, maybe? A standard action mid-combat to wildshape is quite significant at high APLs.
Jay_Ibero_911
02-20-08, 08:54 PM *nods* I wasn't sure if it was worth it either, I just threw it in as an idea. I remembered using it in a summoner build I did a while back, but I think that was an alienist, who just wanted as many pseudonatural dire weasels as possible ;) I think your analysis here makes sense.

Fast Wildshape, if you move the 13 from Cha to Dex, maybe? A standard action mid-combat to wildshape is quite significant at high APLs.

Well I'm guessing the cohort would be in wildshape whenever possible...which would be all day when not required by the situation to resume natural form for whatever reason...
Lightblade
02-20-08, 09:09 PM Hmm, yeah it would seem like Fast Wildshape would lose out to Natural Spell.
Okay, let's say i de-emphasized the summoning, and went more with a wildshaping druid with big animal companion [that would both be buffed by bardic music]. What would the feat loadout look for that scenario? Would summoning still be effective if the situation looked grim without the benefit of rapid augmented animals?
Jay_Ibero_911
02-20-08, 09:41 PM Here's an alternative that would be much faster to play but still pretty useful:

Race:Whisper Gnome
Alignment: NG

STR-8 -2
DEX-10 +2
CON-14 +2
INT-13
WIS-15
CHA-12 -2

Lv1(Druid)Track
Lv2(Druid)
Lv3(Druid)Skill Focus (Handle Animal)
Lv4(Druid)+1 WIS
Lv5(Druid)
Lv6(Beastmaster)Natural Spell
Lv7(Nature's Warrior)Earth's Resilience
Lv8(Nature's Warrior)+1 WIS
Lv9(Nature's Warrior)Wild Growth, Feat
Lv10(Warshaper)
Lv11(Warshaper)

Preferred form would be brown bear, and with the morphic body ability it has the same stats as the dire bear, though 2 less natural armor. Lion/Tiger are options as well if you prefer pounce. He has DR 3/-, Fast Healing 1, immunity to crits and stunning, and can bring along a 10 HD rhino for a companion, which is still pretty solid at APL 12. If you have access to natural bond, then the rhino is even better. You could swap beastmaster for one more druid level to get 4th level spells if you prefer. Just to provide a sharp contrast to a summoning route.
JamesMaissen
02-20-08, 11:40 PM I feel like she'd be wildshaping in combat after summoning / buffing, so i'm not sure that Natural Spell is all that important.

You don't want to wildshape in combat with the silly new wildshape rules. Rather be wildshaped all day.

As the character is a cohort this actually makes them have less of a footprint than normal cohorts which is fine.

Meanwhile anytime you are running a summoner you have to have things lined up. Since you will have a bard at the table as well you should also line up the buffs you can expect them to have.

Back in 3.0 I ran a cleric with the animal domain (which gave me an animal companion) who also had leadership giving him a druid cohort. They both brought in 4 non-class animals each. I was a traveling circus and on rare occasions summoned on top of everything. Yet I'll tell you that I ran them more swiftly than some archers, fighters or wizards that I've played with due to figuring out what to do with them each round before my turn came up and having all their stats laid out for easy reference.

-James
Lightblade
02-21-08, 12:04 AM Hmm, that's an interesting build, but I think I'll stick with Druid 11. I feel like I'd want the flexibility to say "Oh geez, we've got no cleric, time to prep all healing spells." Or perhaps be a little weak on the arcane and prep more of the blasting. She's a cohort, so she'll only come in at not a full table, so there could be a gap somewhere. Summoning will therefore be a "we're screwed" contingency, and not the default plan.

With that in mind, i think I'll end up with the following feats:
Focus:Conjuration, Augment Summoning, Natural Spell, Minor Shapeshift.
My plan is to shape as a Dire Lion, moving to Dire Bear at 12th.
I can have a Dire Lion as my animal companion, which gains evasion at 12th.

Two last questions:
1) Ideas for a feat at 12th level?
3) Thoughts on a PrC for 13th level? I don't *need* one, but i don't get saves or bab anyway, and thousand faces is garbage. Only thing I'd get out of druid is spells (can get from PrC) and the ability to take a Dire Bear companion.
Jay_Ibero_911
02-21-08, 01:30 AM Hmm, that's an interesting build, but I think I'll stick with Druid 11. I feel like I'd want the flexibility to say "Oh geez, we've got no cleric, time to prep all healing spells." Or perhaps be a little weak on the arcane and prep more of the blasting. She's a cohort, so she'll only come in at not a full table, so there could be a gap somewhere. Summoning will therefore be a "we're screwed" contingency, and not the default plan.

With that in mind, i think I'll end up with the following feats:
Focus:Conjuration, Augment Summoning, Natural Spell, Minor Shapeshift.
My plan is to shape as a Dire Lion, moving to Dire Bear at 12th.
I can have a Dire Lion as my animal companion, which gains evasion at 12th.

Two last questions:
1) Ideas for a feat at 12th level?
3) Thoughts on a PrC for 13th level? I don't *need* one, but i don't get saves or bab anyway, and thousand faces is garbage. Only thing I'd get out of druid is spells (can get from PrC) and the ability to take a Dire Bear companion.

Might not be what you had in mind....but you could go another completely different route and make him a shadowcraft mage...lots of versatility there, plus the tricks to cast spells of a level higher than you normally get.

Also, with the druid, if you take anything but druid or nature's warrior at 12th, you won't be able to take dire bear form. If you are worried about gap filling...then maybe you should give him spontaneous healer to better fill the healer role. I don't see how summoning will save you from a "we're screwed" situation, especially if you are not optomized for it. Summons are pretty weak, especially when under APL which the cohort will probably be most of the time.

For maximum versatility...I'd recommend both Spontaneous Healer and a reserve feat, so he can do a decent job blasting or healing regardless of what he actually has prepared. Either Storm Bolt or Fiery Burst depending on your preference. I'm fond of extend spell as well to get some of those buffs to last the day. Maybe ignore wildshape and use a phantom stag for a mount for high mobility while commanding your animal companion. Minor Shapeshift is nice too...instantly replenishable temp HP never hurt.
Lightblade
02-21-08, 08:58 AM In my mind, the Courage +5 and Greatness will make under-APL summons still quite formidable, but maybe that's not entirely true. I suppose I could prep an Animal Growth to hit the companion, my own Drd 1 companion, some summons, and whatever i pull out of my tier 2 Bag of Tricks. That's sort of the desperation act i'm envisioning.

As for the shadowcraft mage; two of the people I play with have shadowcraft mages, no need to get in on that myself. Although, wait a second... might be worthwhile to end up a Druid 12 / Shadowcraft Mage 1. I'd need to sink a mostly useless feat and some cross-class skills, but i'd get my 7th level spell, and a 15% miss chance, too. Hmm...

The Spontaneous Healer is a good suggestion, and i've been looking at Storm Bolk a bit as well. Thanks!
JamesMaissen
02-21-08, 11:38 AM The Spontaneous Healer is a good suggestion, and i've been looking at Storm Bolk a bit as well. Thanks!

Spontaneous Healer shouldn't be all that needed. Pearl 1s and lesser vigor should handle downtime healing. In combat healing shouldn't be much of an issue at your level. Things below a heal are things to cast in extremis.

Be aware on Storm Bolt that it's errata'd to give a save for half. You should be able to do better than that when you are that close to combat.

Again I suggest that you go with Rapid Spell then pick up MMSF: conjuration at your next level.

-James
Jay_Ibero_911
02-21-08, 02:20 PM In my mind, the Courage +5 and Greatness will make under-APL summons still quite formidable, but maybe that's not entirely true. I suppose I could prep an Animal Growth to hit the companion, my own Drd 1 companion, some summons, and whatever i pull out of my tier 2 Bag of Tricks. That's sort of the desperation act i'm envisioning.

As for the shadowcraft mage; two of the people I play with have shadowcraft mages, no need to get in on that myself. Although, wait a second... might be worthwhile to end up a Druid 12 / Shadowcraft Mage 1. I'd need to sink a mostly useless feat and some cross-class skills, but i'd get my 7th level spell, and a 15% miss chance, too. Hmm...

The Spontaneous Healer is a good suggestion, and i've been looking at Storm Bolk a bit as well. Thanks!

You can't use animal growth on your druid companion because wild shape doesn't change his type to animal. I never noticed that shadowcraft mage isn't arcane only...that's funky. Though your druid still wouldn't qualify because there are no druid shadow spells. Also, your desperation scenario would take several rounds to pull off...summoning then animal growth for the druid, and bag of trick then bard song for you....so that's 2 rounds neither of you is doing anything. If you can afford to do that, then it's not a desperate situation. THough the summons would be able to act.
Lightblade
02-21-08, 02:43 PM You can't use animal growth on your druid companion because wild shape doesn't change his type to animal. I never noticed that shadowcraft mage isn't arcane only...that's funky. Though your druid still wouldn't qualify because there are no druid shadow spells. Also, your desperation scenario would take several rounds to pull off...summoning then animal growth for the druid, and bag of trick then bard song for you....so that's 2 rounds neither of you is doing anything. If you can afford to do that, then it's not a desperate situation. THough the summons would be able to act.

Never said I tried to hit the cohort, just her companion.

Darn, on first reading i thought i only needed illusions, which there are a couple. (I thought Phantom Stag was one based on the name, but apparently it's a conjuration).

The bardsong is something that i'm doing anyway. I've always assumed that new allies coming in hear the Inspire Courage Bardsong and get the benefit as long as i'm still playing it (and haven't switched songs to Inspire Greatness or something).
Jay_Ibero_911
02-21-08, 03:36 PM Never said I tried to hit the cohort, just her companion.

Darn, on first reading i thought i only needed illusions, which there are a couple. (I thought Phantom Stag was one based on the name, but apparently it's a conjuration).

The bardsong is something that i'm doing anyway. I've always assumed that new allies coming in hear the Inspire Courage Bardsong and get the benefit as long as i'm still playing it (and haven't switched songs to Inspire Greatness or something).

I could prep an Animal Growth to hit the companion, my own Drd 1 companion, some summons, and whatever i pull out of my tier 2 Bag of Tricks.

Ah...when you said "my own Drd 1 companion" I thought you just left off the 1 for the druid 11 cohort...didn't realize you had your own animal companion. As far as the bard song issue while I have no opinion one way or the other, I know a few people who would argue that it only affects those in the area at the beginning of the song. With summoning it is kind of all or nothing however, so if you are dead set on summoning, go all the way with spell focus/augment summoning/rapid spell/metamagic school focus.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lightblade 02-20-08, 01:30 PM	Hi. I've got a 13th level gnomish Bard* that took leadership back at Gencon when he found access to a NG Whisper Gnome cohort. However, I haven't statted her out yet, and now that DDXP is coming, i figure I ought to create the build. Base Idea: Druid 11: Elite array: Str 10 Dex 8 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 15 Cha 13 After Racial Modifiers and points: Str 8 Dex 10 Con 16 Int 12 Wis 17 Cha 11 Feats: Spell Focus Conjuration, Augment Summoning, Natural Spell? Perhaps some reserve feats? Storm Bolt is nice, perhaps the Polymorph-based one if Baleful Polymorph is in the Polymorph subschool. Also I'm thinking about Practiced Spellcaster, solely because inspire greatness will give her 2 HD every combat. The idea is more of Wildshaper/Summoner and less of a battlecaster, so she'll be wearing an amulet of health and have not-great save DCs. My main character will soon craft a vest of Legends, and combined with inspirational boost and badge of valor, will be putting out a +5 Inspire Courage. Also, he'll shortly be able to inspire greatness in 3 allies per use (as a move action thanks to Harmonize, while casting other spells melodically). I figured that a cohort that could bring additional combatants to the field (and perhaps her as well) would be a good synergy. Thoughts? Feat choices? * Actually, I'm a Bard 7 / Rogue 2 / Druid 1 / Sublime Chord 1 / FoL 2, and planning to grab another 2 levels of FoL on the way out.
JamesMaissen 02-20-08, 02:08 PM	Base Idea: Druid 11: Elite array: Str 10 Dex 8 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 15 Cha 13 After Racial Modifiers and points: Str 8 Dex 10 Con 16 Int 12 Wis 17 Cha 11 Feats: Spell Focus Conjuration, Augment Summoning, Natural Spell? Perhaps some reserve feats? Storm Bolt is nice, perhaps the Polymorph-based one if Baleful Polymorph is in the Polymorph subschool. Also I'm thinking about Practiced Spellcaster, solely because inspire greatness will give her 2 HD every combat. I figured that a cohort that could bring additional combatants to the field (and perhaps her as well) would be a good synergy. I would go with Rapid Spell and Metamagic School Focus: Conjuration. You get to memorize 3 rapid summons without taking the level bump for them. Also I would get an ioun stone for +2 wis to bump the 20WIS to 22 to get the bonus 6th level spell. -James
delewobmesid 02-20-08, 02:40 PM	James is right about the rapid summoning (you 'need' the speed bump(s) the first round, not the second). that would make the feats 1 spell focus conjuration, 3 augment summoning, 6 rapid summoning, 9 meta magic scholl focus conjuration. 12 practices spell caster or a reserve feat Load the co-hort up with a best common access they can afford and cut lose (but isn't that co-hort a +1 level adjusted character? making it a 10th lvl druid?)
Lightblade 02-20-08, 02:49 PM	James is right about the rapid summoning (you 'need' the speed bump(s) the first round, not the second). that would make the feats 1 spell focus conjuration, 3 augment summoning, 6 rapid summoning, 9 meta magic scholl focus conjuration. 12 practices spell caster or a reserve feat Load the co-hort up with a best common access they can afford and cut lose (but isn't that co-hort a +1 level adjusted character? making it a 10th lvl druid?) Whisper Gnomes have a +0 LA, which makes them on the strong end of the race spectrum. Another neat thing I wanted to take advantage of was that their racial silence SLA can be used while wildshaped. Sure, that will put my bardsong into the 5 rounds of lingering for the cohort/animal buddies, but denying an enemy spellcaster verbal components while in the face of a dire lion (dire bear at next level) seems like it will be quite powerful.
copperwyrmling 02-20-08, 04:23 PM	I'd probably take Natural Spell as the L12 feat, if you expect her to spend much time in wildshape: I think being able to cast while wildshaped would be more useful than +2 CL when you're inspiring greatness, since summon spells aren't very CL-dependent. Empower Spell might also be something to consider - since you have such good multi-target buffs, using MMSF to cheaply empower 1d3 and 1d4+1 summons might be worthwhile, and all healing spells and Arc of Lightning are also conjuration and work well with Empower. I was about to suggest swapping the stats around for more Dex (initiative is good), but if she's going to be wildshaped a lot then her natural Str and Dex are irrelevant.
Lightblade 02-20-08, 06:42 PM	I feel like she'd be wildshaping in combat after summoning / buffing, so i'm not sure that Natural Spell is all that important. You're probably right that it's more important than the +2 CL, though. Not sure how it racks up against some of the Reserve Feats: the polymorphing one seems quite solid, if baleful polymorph indeed belongs to the Polymorph subschool. With Inspire Courage + Inspire Greatness, the druid should probably be spending its turns tearing foes limb from limb. As for empower, i'm not convinced that it's worth it for the summons. Since I still lose a level to the metamagic, i'd be getting [1, 3, 4] instead of [2, 3, 4, 5] in the d3 case, which is a net loss. The d4+1 case may fare better, but i dunno if [3, 4, 6, 7] of level n - 1 beats [2 3 4 5] of level n. For the healing and damage Empower may fare better, but I feel like I'd spend my 3 slots of cheap metamagic all on prepared rapid summons.
boolean 02-20-08, 07:58 PM	There's one big problem I can see with this build: how will the other players at the table feel about this character? A wildshaping, summoning, buffing druid is a pretty complicated character to run. Getting the math right, running the druid's actions _and_ the animal companion's actions _and_ the summoned creatures' actions can take up a lot of table time. Add in the fact that this is a cohort: It might take you even longer because of a lack of experience with the build (playing a character up from first to tenth teaches you a lot about how to play it quickly and effectively), and, your attention is split by running your primary character as well. If you mostly play at local game days and home games, I'd recommend you check with your regular players and see what they think. If you mostly play at conventions, I'd pick a different cohort.
Lightblade 02-20-08, 08:22 PM	Those are some good points. I wouldn't be entirely fresh playing such a character. My main was actually a Druid 6 / Bard 2 / X before the druid respec, so the idea of buffing the animal companions / summons with spells and songs is fairly old hat to me. Also, I do miss the higher level druidic abilities somewhat, and a cohort could fill that void. Figuring out how to do so effectively without taking up too much of the limelight is a reasonable concern. I could limit summons to a single monster per battle, or even only pull them out if things look dicey. Then again, if summoning is a back-up plan my feat selection should probably change to reflect that. For those of you that have played with Gimbo at one point or another: how would you feel about such a cohort?
copperwyrmling 02-20-08, 08:25 PM	As for empower, i'm not convinced that it's worth it for the summons. Since I still lose a level to the metamagic, i'd be getting [1, 3, 4] instead of [2, 3, 4, 5] in the d3 case, which is a net loss. The d4+1 case may fare better, but i dunno if [3, 4, 6, 7] of level n - 1 beats [2 3 4 5] of level n. nods I wasn't sure if it was worth it either, I just threw it in as an idea. I remembered using it in a summoner build I did a while back, but I think that was an alienist, who just wanted as many pseudonatural dire weasels as possible ;) I think your analysis here makes sense. Fast Wildshape, if you move the 13 from Cha to Dex, maybe? A standard action mid-combat to wildshape is quite significant at high APLs.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-20-08, 08:54 PM	nods I wasn't sure if it was worth it either, I just threw it in as an idea. I remembered using it in a summoner build I did a while back, but I think that was an alienist, who just wanted as many pseudonatural dire weasels as possible ;) I think your analysis here makes sense. Fast Wildshape, if you move the 13 from Cha to Dex, maybe? A standard action mid-combat to wildshape is quite significant at high APLs. Well I'm guessing the cohort would be in wildshape whenever possible...which would be all day when not required by the situation to resume natural form for whatever reason...
Lightblade 02-20-08, 09:09 PM	Hmm, yeah it would seem like Fast Wildshape would lose out to Natural Spell. Okay, let's say i de-emphasized the summoning, and went more with a wildshaping druid with big animal companion [that would both be buffed by bardic music]. What would the feat loadout look for that scenario? Would summoning still be effective if the situation looked grim without the benefit of rapid augmented animals?
Jay_Ibero_911 02-20-08, 09:41 PM	Here's an alternative that would be much faster to play but still pretty useful: Race:Whisper Gnome Alignment: NG STR-8 -2 DEX-10 +2 CON-14 +2 INT-13 WIS-15 CHA-12 -2 Lv1(Druid)Track Lv2(Druid) Lv3(Druid)Skill Focus (Handle Animal) Lv4(Druid)+1 WIS Lv5(Druid) Lv6(Beastmaster)Natural Spell Lv7(Nature's Warrior)Earth's Resilience Lv8(Nature's Warrior)+1 WIS Lv9(Nature's Warrior)Wild Growth, Feat Lv10(Warshaper) Lv11(Warshaper) Preferred form would be brown bear, and with the morphic body ability it has the same stats as the dire bear, though 2 less natural armor. Lion/Tiger are options as well if you prefer pounce. He has DR 3/-, Fast Healing 1, immunity to crits and stunning, and can bring along a 10 HD rhino for a companion, which is still pretty solid at APL 12. If you have access to natural bond, then the rhino is even better. You could swap beastmaster for one more druid level to get 4th level spells if you prefer. Just to provide a sharp contrast to a summoning route.
JamesMaissen 02-20-08, 11:40 PM	I feel like she'd be wildshaping in combat after summoning / buffing, so i'm not sure that Natural Spell is all that important. You don't want to wildshape in combat with the silly new wildshape rules. Rather be wildshaped all day. As the character is a cohort this actually makes them have less of a footprint than normal cohorts which is fine. Meanwhile anytime you are running a summoner you have to have things lined up. Since you will have a bard at the table as well you should also line up the buffs you can expect them to have. Back in 3.0 I ran a cleric with the animal domain (which gave me an animal companion) who also had leadership giving him a druid cohort. They both brought in 4 non-class animals each. I was a traveling circus and on rare occasions summoned on top of everything. Yet I'll tell you that I ran them more swiftly than some archers, fighters or wizards that I've played with due to figuring out what to do with them each round before my turn came up and having all their stats laid out for easy reference. -James
Lightblade 02-21-08, 12:04 AM	Hmm, that's an interesting build, but I think I'll stick with Druid 11. I feel like I'd want the flexibility to say "Oh geez, we've got no cleric, time to prep all healing spells." Or perhaps be a little weak on the arcane and prep more of the blasting. She's a cohort, so she'll only come in at not a full table, so there could be a gap somewhere. Summoning will therefore be a "we're screwed" contingency, and not the default plan. With that in mind, i think I'll end up with the following feats: Focus:Conjuration, Augment Summoning, Natural Spell, Minor Shapeshift. My plan is to shape as a Dire Lion, moving to Dire Bear at 12th. I can have a Dire Lion as my animal companion, which gains evasion at 12th. Two last questions: 1) Ideas for a feat at 12th level? 3) Thoughts on a PrC for 13th level? I don't need one, but i don't get saves or bab anyway, and thousand faces is garbage. Only thing I'd get out of druid is spells (can get from PrC) and the ability to take a Dire Bear companion.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-21-08, 01:30 AM	Hmm, that's an interesting build, but I think I'll stick with Druid 11. I feel like I'd want the flexibility to say "Oh geez, we've got no cleric, time to prep all healing spells." Or perhaps be a little weak on the arcane and prep more of the blasting. She's a cohort, so she'll only come in at not a full table, so there could be a gap somewhere. Summoning will therefore be a "we're screwed" contingency, and not the default plan. With that in mind, i think I'll end up with the following feats: Focus:Conjuration, Augment Summoning, Natural Spell, Minor Shapeshift. My plan is to shape as a Dire Lion, moving to Dire Bear at 12th. I can have a Dire Lion as my animal companion, which gains evasion at 12th. Two last questions: 1) Ideas for a feat at 12th level? 3) Thoughts on a PrC for 13th level? I don't need one, but i don't get saves or bab anyway, and thousand faces is garbage. Only thing I'd get out of druid is spells (can get from PrC) and the ability to take a Dire Bear companion. Might not be what you had in mind....but you could go another completely different route and make him a shadowcraft mage...lots of versatility there, plus the tricks to cast spells of a level higher than you normally get. Also, with the druid, if you take anything but druid or nature's warrior at 12th, you won't be able to take dire bear form. If you are worried about gap filling...then maybe you should give him spontaneous healer to better fill the healer role. I don't see how summoning will save you from a "we're screwed" situation, especially if you are not optomized for it. Summons are pretty weak, especially when under APL which the cohort will probably be most of the time. For maximum versatility...I'd recommend both Spontaneous Healer and a reserve feat, so he can do a decent job blasting or healing regardless of what he actually has prepared. Either Storm Bolt or Fiery Burst depending on your preference. I'm fond of extend spell as well to get some of those buffs to last the day. Maybe ignore wildshape and use a phantom stag for a mount for high mobility while commanding your animal companion. Minor Shapeshift is nice too...instantly replenishable temp HP never hurt.
Lightblade 02-21-08, 08:58 AM	In my mind, the Courage +5 and Greatness will make under-APL summons still quite formidable, but maybe that's not entirely true. I suppose I could prep an Animal Growth to hit the companion, my own Drd 1 companion, some summons, and whatever i pull out of my tier 2 Bag of Tricks. That's sort of the desperation act i'm envisioning. As for the shadowcraft mage; two of the people I play with have shadowcraft mages, no need to get in on that myself. Although, wait a second... might be worthwhile to end up a Druid 12 / Shadowcraft Mage 1. I'd need to sink a mostly useless feat and some cross-class skills, but i'd get my 7th level spell, and a 15% miss chance, too. Hmm... The Spontaneous Healer is a good suggestion, and i've been looking at Storm Bolk a bit as well. Thanks!
JamesMaissen 02-21-08, 11:38 AM	The Spontaneous Healer is a good suggestion, and i've been looking at Storm Bolk a bit as well. Thanks! Spontaneous Healer shouldn't be all that needed. Pearl 1s and lesser vigor should handle downtime healing. In combat healing shouldn't be much of an issue at your level. Things below a heal are things to cast in extremis. Be aware on Storm Bolt that it's errata'd to give a save for half. You should be able to do better than that when you are that close to combat. Again I suggest that you go with Rapid Spell then pick up MMSF: conjuration at your next level. -James
Jay_Ibero_911 02-21-08, 02:20 PM	In my mind, the Courage +5 and Greatness will make under-APL summons still quite formidable, but maybe that's not entirely true. I suppose I could prep an Animal Growth to hit the companion, my own Drd 1 companion, some summons, and whatever i pull out of my tier 2 Bag of Tricks. That's sort of the desperation act i'm envisioning. As for the shadowcraft mage; two of the people I play with have shadowcraft mages, no need to get in on that myself. Although, wait a second... might be worthwhile to end up a Druid 12 / Shadowcraft Mage 1. I'd need to sink a mostly useless feat and some cross-class skills, but i'd get my 7th level spell, and a 15% miss chance, too. Hmm... The Spontaneous Healer is a good suggestion, and i've been looking at Storm Bolk a bit as well. Thanks! You can't use animal growth on your druid companion because wild shape doesn't change his type to animal. I never noticed that shadowcraft mage isn't arcane only...that's funky. Though your druid still wouldn't qualify because there are no druid shadow spells. Also, your desperation scenario would take several rounds to pull off...summoning then animal growth for the druid, and bag of trick then bard song for you....so that's 2 rounds neither of you is doing anything. If you can afford to do that, then it's not a desperate situation. THough the summons would be able to act.
Lightblade 02-21-08, 02:43 PM	You can't use animal growth on your druid companion because wild shape doesn't change his type to animal. I never noticed that shadowcraft mage isn't arcane only...that's funky. Though your druid still wouldn't qualify because there are no druid shadow spells. Also, your desperation scenario would take several rounds to pull off...summoning then animal growth for the druid, and bag of trick then bard song for you....so that's 2 rounds neither of you is doing anything. If you can afford to do that, then it's not a desperate situation. THough the summons would be able to act. Never said I tried to hit the cohort, just her companion. Darn, on first reading i thought i only needed illusions, which there are a couple. (I thought Phantom Stag was one based on the name, but apparently it's a conjuration). The bardsong is something that i'm doing anyway. I've always assumed that new allies coming in hear the Inspire Courage Bardsong and get the benefit as long as i'm still playing it (and haven't switched songs to Inspire Greatness or something).
Jay_Ibero_911 02-21-08, 03:36 PM	Never said I tried to hit the cohort, just her companion. Darn, on first reading i thought i only needed illusions, which there are a couple. (I thought Phantom Stag was one based on the name, but apparently it's a conjuration). The bardsong is something that i'm doing anyway. I've always assumed that new allies coming in hear the Inspire Courage Bardsong and get the benefit as long as i'm still playing it (and haven't switched songs to Inspire Greatness or something). I could prep an Animal Growth to hit the companion, my own Drd 1 companion, some summons, and whatever i pull out of my tier 2 Bag of Tricks. Ah...when you said "my own Drd 1 companion" I thought you just left off the 1 for the druid 11 cohort...didn't realize you had your own animal companion. As far as the bard song issue while I have no opinion one way or the other, I know a few people who would argue that it only affects those in the area at the beginning of the song. With summoning it is kind of all or nothing however, so if you are dead set on summoning, go all the way with spell focus/augment summoning/rapid spell/metamagic school focus.