Improved Crit vs. Keen/Impacting [Archive] - Wizards Community

Improved Crit vs. Keen/Impacting [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Eric Anondson
04-01-07, 04:07 PM Do folks have a general opinion on whether Improved Critical is superior to Keen/Impacting when designing a character build that eventually will want an improved crit threat?
jstorrie
04-01-07, 05:33 PM It comes entirely down to the proportions of feats and wealth a character has, and how reliant they are on critical hits. If you have many open feat slots (Fighter levels, a build with few prerequisite feats, etc.) then the cost of Improved Critical is likely lower than the cost of Keen. If you have few feat slots, but are less dependant on gear or craft most of your own equipment, the cost of Keen is likely lower than the cost of a feat. And if you absolutely must have that high crit range (Telling Blow or Lightning Mace people, for example) then you generally plan to take Imp Crit and hope that you can find Keen access and retrain out later.
boolean
04-02-07, 12:35 AM Improved Critical has quite a few advantages:

1. It doesn't cost any gold. As mentioned, whether the gold cost is worth more or less than a feat can vary. If a weapon already has +2 or +3 worth of enhancements, keen can cost you 10,000 or 14,000 gp.

2. You don't need to get access to it. No need to worry about finding it on an AR.

3. It applies to all your weapons of the chosen type. Improved Critical (Longsword) applies to your silver longsword, and your cold iron one, and your adamantine one, etc.

4. Improved Critical stacks with magical effects that modify critical hits. Spells like bless weapon specifically don't work with things like keen weapons. They still work with feats like Improved Critical.
LachlarlanIII
04-02-07, 10:35 AM If you're dual wielding the same weapon in both hands, Improved Crit is probably better.
Reylance
04-02-07, 01:32 PM I am a firm believer in the improved critical feat, particularly in conjunction with the sacred scabbard or bless weapon spell. As a front-line fighter, I like to power attack in such a way that my final iterative hits on a (low number of threat range), which guarantees a critical hit when blessed. I wouldn't want keen on my normal weapon, as it's expensive enough to add holy or wounding to your weapon, and I'd prefer to spend a feat than to spend another 14,000 on that weapon (particularly if you could instead add sacred or bane on the weapon if you had the money).

As others have mentioned, improved critical works on all weapons, all materials.
jstorrie
04-02-07, 01:34 PM Some melee builds only get five or six feats, though, and may find a feat more valuable than 14k. Imp Crit isn't 'better' than Keen, but it is more appropriate in most cases.
Eric Anondson
04-02-07, 03:14 PM It's nice to have all these out in one place, I guess each time I contemplate it I usually only have one benefit in mind when I measure keen/impacting vs. Improved Critical.

Something I had in mind was that Improved Critical depends on where you BAB matches with your feat availability. A fighter level and you can get it at level 8, other full BAB classes can get it as soon as level 9, moderate BAB (like clerics and rogues) pushes it off until level 12.

With keen/impacting, you can get it as soon as you you have enough gp. *shrug* Whatever enough is.

Noting that bless weapon has that reminded me of encounters where a character could put holy sword on his weapon... which of course suppressed the keen ability. Anti-magic fields also suppress keen/impacting.
solbergb
04-02-07, 03:31 PM I think most of the above sums it up well. Generally in LG, a feat is easier than the cash to come up with, especially given the golfbag-of-weapons thing, and bless weapon oil is sold in every community, so even noncasters can benefit from the "autocrit evil if threaten" thing that stacks only with improved crit, not with any magical effects that simulate this.

Spells may or may not be easier. Unlike GMW (or spikes in its heyday hour-duration), these spells are only 10 min/level duration and aren't perceived as contributing as much to the party, and generally aren't taken as typical picks unless the caster can use the spell to good effect somehow.
solbergb
04-02-07, 03:34 PM Something I had in mind was that Improved Critical depends on where you BAB matches with your feat availability. A fighter level and you can get it at level 8, other full BAB classes can get it as soon as level 9, moderate BAB (like clerics and rogues) pushes it off until level 12.

With keen/impacting, you can get it as soon as you you have enough gp. *shrug* Whatever enough is.

.

I tend not to consider special purpose enchantments that cost a minimum of 6k upgrade until the APL10-12 range, and they're more typical in the 14+ range. Most of the LG career, if you are upgrading a weapon, you are usually looking for general purpose (more damage vs most opponents), DR defeating (sacred, holy) or a way to do different kind of damage (merciful, or elemental damage vs swarms). Buying "bane" weapons and other special purpose things is a luxury for the endgame.
solbergb
04-02-07, 03:35 PM Some melee builds only get five or six feats, though, and may find a feat more valuable than 14k. Imp Crit isn't 'better' than Keen, but it is more appropriate in most cases.

But is it better than any other use of that 14k? That's the thing. There are tons of good enchantments for weapons that do more than give you something one in 10 swings.
DonShard
04-02-07, 04:56 PM But is it better than any other use of that 14k? That's the thing. There are tons of good enchantments for weapons that do more than give you something one in 10 swings.

It is important to note that it's not the probability OR the effect independently that should be considered, but rather the combination thereof.

In other words, even if there's only a 10% chance of doing extra damage, if it's a LOT of extra damage, it's may be worth it.

That being said, I'm generally in favor of Imp Crit as opposed to Keen.
GreatSiron
04-02-07, 06:00 PM I tend not to consider special purpose enchantments that cost a minimum of 6k upgrade until the APL10-12 range, and they're more typical in the 14+ range. Most of the LG career, if you are upgrading a weapon, you are usually looking for general purpose (more damage vs most opponents), DR defeating (sacred, holy) or a way to do different kind of damage (merciful, or elemental damage vs swarms). Buying "bane" weapons and other special purpose things is a luxury for the endgame.

What about wounding? I plan on getting that on my rogue mutt once I get enough cash. I can go combat expertise and still be a serious threat. (May not hit often, but when I do, I get his attention):D

Should I hold that off until the APL 10-12 range? (Am 7th now)
Eric Anondson
04-02-07, 06:19 PM What about wounding? I plan on getting that on my rogue mutt once I get enough cash. I can go combat expertise and still be a serious threat. (May not hit often, but when I do, I get his attention):D

Should I hold that off until the APL 10-12 range? (Am 7th now)I'm of the opinion that if wounding is in your scheme, get it as soon as your access and your available gp align.
Eric Anondson
04-02-07, 06:33 PM Here is a bit of a follow up to my OP.

Say you have a 9th level character with moderate BAB (a Brb1/Clr8 gives BAB +7 to be precise). This character is swinging around a x4 crit threat weapon with a burst special ability.

Would it be better to get a level of fighter to grab Improved Critical at level 10, or to just wait to level 12.

For getting it sooner: get the 19-20 crit threat two levels earlier.

For getting it later: means getting an extra caster level, at higher APLs getting that higher level spell is nice
JamesMaissen
04-02-07, 07:41 PM Here is a bit of a follow up to my OP.

Say you have a 9th level character with moderate BAB (a Brb1/Clr8 gives BAB +7 to be precise). This character is swinging around a x4 crit threat weapon with a burst special ability.

Would it be better to get a level of fighter to grab Improved Critical at level 10, or to just wait to level 12.

For getting it sooner: get the 19-20 crit threat two levels earlier.

For getting it later: means getting an extra caster level, at higher APLs getting that higher level spell is nice

What would you take otherwise, if not the level in fighter?

That will put into better perspective how much you are paying for it now.

Now ask yourself at 12th level how will the two possibilities compare?

That will put into better perspective how much you will continue to pay for it later.

-James
Eric Anondson
04-02-07, 08:07 PM If I don't take fighter at 10th, I'll continue with cleric until the end. Which at 10th level would give me cleric 9 and 5th level spells (fire and destruction domains). Taking fighter would push 5th level spells until 11th level. Being a frontline melee type, fire shield would be quite fun.

If the character took fighter I was looking at using the 12th level feat for maybe Brutal Strike or Craft Arms and Armor or Craft Wondrous Item.
Mommy was an Orc
04-02-07, 08:20 PM While it doesn't apply to this character, remember a lot of characters are going to be thinking strongly about MWM and RWM and may not have a free feat available for Improved Crit.

You'd be surprised how fast MWM destroys all your spare feats...
copper_wyrmling
04-02-07, 08:51 PM While it doesn't apply to this character, remember a lot of characters are going to be thinking strongly about MWM and RWM and may not have a free feat available for Improved Crit.

You'd be surprised how fast MWM destroys all your spare feats...

Yeah ;) I kicked myself, just a little, when I saw MWM - my dervish prebuild changed from ranger 1 / fighter 4 to ranger 1 / barbarian 2 / fighter 2 at the 595 conversion, because I decided the +10ft movement and option for rage outweighed the extra feat. I'm still not sure if I really regret that decision: the extra movement has been VERY useful, and I recently played a game where we fought seven combats in one day, so having rage as well as dervish dance did help. For a high-Str power-attacking falchion-wielder with other flat damage bonuses (who has access to a sacred scabbard: have you seen what happened to the scabbard in the MIC? :eek:), at mid-high levels I suspect Imp Crit starts to become comparable to Weapon Spec + Melee Weapon Mastery anyway, when fighting crittable opponents.
solbergb
04-02-07, 10:45 PM melee weapon mastery is on the other end of "how often will it come up".

As in "all the time". Like weapon focus/weapon spec. In the end, it's +10 damage a swing if you power attack away all the to-hit advantage and use a 2H weapon. Although amortized over the 3 feats it costs, you might call it more like +6 damage (+2 for first feat, +2 for second feat, +6 for melee ewapon mastery)

Improved crit by contrast works somewhat less than 5-15% of the time (because of noncrittable monsters and failing to confirm), so your crits had better add enough damage to make up for that. IMHO, on most characters imp crit is more on the level of weapon focus and maybe not even that good, because it is so errattic and doesn't usually do 20x as much damage as just getting another +1 to hit would.

If you have the other stuff though, then it starts looking better. I might still take it at L15 for my arcane archer, as he's pretty much out of feats then and it adds good flavor (like getting "keen edge" as well as "GMW" on his arrows without needing spells). There is no way though, that my monk would want it, partly because of the crit range of his flurryable weapons being sucky, but also because of all the many, many feats competing for his attention (including the weapon mastery tree if he made it to L18, but even in LG, there are things like power attack, deadly defense, improved natural attack competing for his short term choices, other attractive feats like acrobatic attack, versitile unarmed strike that add damage or dr penetration in specific situations etc).
Gwumph
04-03-07, 12:01 AM So What about if your weapon has a crit range 18-20

I wield 2 eagle claws and am heading for the Dervish PrC.

Now we all know a Dervish is a feat hungry PrC.

So I have to balance 16,000 gp (2 +1/keen eagle claws)

at level 10 (have earned roughly 40,000gp) with my 2 remaining feats.

I have to do one or the other since I will be making a minimum of 5 attacks per full attack.

Good question would be how often have people seen access to keen upgrade??
Eric Anondson
04-03-07, 12:11 AM Good question would be how often have people seen access to keen upgrade??I've seen it so often that I don't it worry about access for it. On the other hand, I have only seen access to impacting one time since I started in year 2. Maybe it will show up more now that it is in the MIC.
copper_wyrmling
04-03-07, 12:22 AM I've seen it so often that I don't it worry about access for it. On the other hand, I have only seen access to impacting one time since I started in year 2. Maybe it will show up more now that it is in the MIC.

I'm pretty sure my dervish has never seen access: he'd have to burn one of his "any weapon enhancement below X value from the DMG" favors, if he wanted it. I don't remember seeing it with my other PCs, but my sorcerer doesn't use weapons and my cleric fights with a staff, so I might have gotten access and not remembered it.
jstorrie
04-03-07, 04:27 AM A Rogue1/Ftr1/Swash 1-2/Rogue2-3/Ftr2-4/Swash3-8 Daring Outlaw is the sort of build that'd prefer Imp Crit - one that has plenty of feats to spend, Telling Blow and MWM already. Most builds won't have as much use for it, though. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that unless you have Telling Blow or a really attractive crit range (18-20 or x4) you should avoid Imp Crit and Keen.
boogahwoof
04-04-07, 12:38 AM I'll say this, I have had a 12th level character loose his total +5 (keen +3 adam frost greatsword) sundered. At a time when I had just spent all my money on something else, so I say the feat is better, cause my backup sword would at least have still had the keen quality. Plus another note I am from the Yeomanry, and we havent seen impact on any AR's. So i favor the heat if you have the open one to get it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Eric Anondson 04-01-07, 04:07 PM	Do folks have a general opinion on whether Improved Critical is superior to Keen/Impacting when designing a character build that eventually will want an improved crit threat?
jstorrie 04-01-07, 05:33 PM	It comes entirely down to the proportions of feats and wealth a character has, and how reliant they are on critical hits. If you have many open feat slots (Fighter levels, a build with few prerequisite feats, etc.) then the cost of Improved Critical is likely lower than the cost of Keen. If you have few feat slots, but are less dependant on gear or craft most of your own equipment, the cost of Keen is likely lower than the cost of a feat. And if you absolutely must have that high crit range (Telling Blow or Lightning Mace people, for example) then you generally plan to take Imp Crit and hope that you can find Keen access and retrain out later.
boolean 04-02-07, 12:35 AM	Improved Critical has quite a few advantages: 1. It doesn't cost any gold. As mentioned, whether the gold cost is worth more or less than a feat can vary. If a weapon already has +2 or +3 worth of enhancements, keen can cost you 10,000 or 14,000 gp. 2. You don't need to get access to it. No need to worry about finding it on an AR. 3. It applies to all your weapons of the chosen type. Improved Critical (Longsword) applies to your silver longsword, and your cold iron one, and your adamantine one, etc. 4. Improved Critical stacks with magical effects that modify critical hits. Spells like bless weapon specifically don't work with things like keen weapons. They still work with feats like Improved Critical.
LachlarlanIII 04-02-07, 10:35 AM	If you're dual wielding the same weapon in both hands, Improved Crit is probably better.
Reylance 04-02-07, 01:32 PM	I am a firm believer in the improved critical feat, particularly in conjunction with the sacred scabbard or bless weapon spell. As a front-line fighter, I like to power attack in such a way that my final iterative hits on a (low number of threat range), which guarantees a critical hit when blessed. I wouldn't want keen on my normal weapon, as it's expensive enough to add holy or wounding to your weapon, and I'd prefer to spend a feat than to spend another 14,000 on that weapon (particularly if you could instead add sacred or bane on the weapon if you had the money). As others have mentioned, improved critical works on all weapons, all materials.
jstorrie 04-02-07, 01:34 PM	Some melee builds only get five or six feats, though, and may find a feat more valuable than 14k. Imp Crit isn't 'better' than Keen, but it is more appropriate in most cases.
Eric Anondson 04-02-07, 03:14 PM	It's nice to have all these out in one place, I guess each time I contemplate it I usually only have one benefit in mind when I measure keen/impacting vs. Improved Critical. Something I had in mind was that Improved Critical depends on where you BAB matches with your feat availability. A fighter level and you can get it at level 8, other full BAB classes can get it as soon as level 9, moderate BAB (like clerics and rogues) pushes it off until level 12. With keen/impacting, you can get it as soon as you you have enough gp. shrug Whatever enough is. Noting that bless weapon has that reminded me of encounters where a character could put holy sword on his weapon... which of course suppressed the keen ability. Anti-magic fields also suppress keen/impacting.
solbergb 04-02-07, 03:31 PM	I think most of the above sums it up well. Generally in LG, a feat is easier than the cash to come up with, especially given the golfbag-of-weapons thing, and bless weapon oil is sold in every community, so even noncasters can benefit from the "autocrit evil if threaten" thing that stacks only with improved crit, not with any magical effects that simulate this. Spells may or may not be easier. Unlike GMW (or spikes in its heyday hour-duration), these spells are only 10 min/level duration and aren't perceived as contributing as much to the party, and generally aren't taken as typical picks unless the caster can use the spell to good effect somehow.
solbergb 04-02-07, 03:34 PM	Something I had in mind was that Improved Critical depends on where you BAB matches with your feat availability. A fighter level and you can get it at level 8, other full BAB classes can get it as soon as level 9, moderate BAB (like clerics and rogues) pushes it off until level 12. With keen/impacting, you can get it as soon as you you have enough gp. shrug Whatever enough is. . I tend not to consider special purpose enchantments that cost a minimum of 6k upgrade until the APL10-12 range, and they're more typical in the 14+ range. Most of the LG career, if you are upgrading a weapon, you are usually looking for general purpose (more damage vs most opponents), DR defeating (sacred, holy) or a way to do different kind of damage (merciful, or elemental damage vs swarms). Buying "bane" weapons and other special purpose things is a luxury for the endgame.
solbergb 04-02-07, 03:35 PM	Some melee builds only get five or six feats, though, and may find a feat more valuable than 14k. Imp Crit isn't 'better' than Keen, but it is more appropriate in most cases. But is it better than any other use of that 14k? That's the thing. There are tons of good enchantments for weapons that do more than give you something one in 10 swings.
DonShard 04-02-07, 04:56 PM	But is it better than any other use of that 14k? That's the thing. There are tons of good enchantments for weapons that do more than give you something one in 10 swings. It is important to note that it's not the probability OR the effect independently that should be considered, but rather the combination thereof. In other words, even if there's only a 10% chance of doing extra damage, if it's a LOT of extra damage, it's may be worth it. That being said, I'm generally in favor of Imp Crit as opposed to Keen.
GreatSiron 04-02-07, 06:00 PM	I tend not to consider special purpose enchantments that cost a minimum of 6k upgrade until the APL10-12 range, and they're more typical in the 14+ range. Most of the LG career, if you are upgrading a weapon, you are usually looking for general purpose (more damage vs most opponents), DR defeating (sacred, holy) or a way to do different kind of damage (merciful, or elemental damage vs swarms). Buying "bane" weapons and other special purpose things is a luxury for the endgame. What about wounding? I plan on getting that on my rogue mutt once I get enough cash. I can go combat expertise and still be a serious threat. (May not hit often, but when I do, I get his attention):D Should I hold that off until the APL 10-12 range? (Am 7th now)
Eric Anondson 04-02-07, 06:19 PM	What about wounding? I plan on getting that on my rogue mutt once I get enough cash. I can go combat expertise and still be a serious threat. (May not hit often, but when I do, I get his attention):D Should I hold that off until the APL 10-12 range? (Am 7th now)I'm of the opinion that if wounding is in your scheme, get it as soon as your access and your available gp align.
Eric Anondson 04-02-07, 06:33 PM	Here is a bit of a follow up to my OP. Say you have a 9th level character with moderate BAB (a Brb1/Clr8 gives BAB +7 to be precise). This character is swinging around a x4 crit threat weapon with a burst special ability. Would it be better to get a level of fighter to grab Improved Critical at level 10, or to just wait to level 12. For getting it sooner: get the 19-20 crit threat two levels earlier. For getting it later: means getting an extra caster level, at higher APLs getting that higher level spell is nice
JamesMaissen 04-02-07, 07:41 PM	Here is a bit of a follow up to my OP. Say you have a 9th level character with moderate BAB (a Brb1/Clr8 gives BAB +7 to be precise). This character is swinging around a x4 crit threat weapon with a burst special ability. Would it be better to get a level of fighter to grab Improved Critical at level 10, or to just wait to level 12. For getting it sooner: get the 19-20 crit threat two levels earlier. For getting it later: means getting an extra caster level, at higher APLs getting that higher level spell is nice What would you take otherwise, if not the level in fighter? That will put into better perspective how much you are paying for it now. Now ask yourself at 12th level how will the two possibilities compare? That will put into better perspective how much you will continue to pay for it later. -James
Eric Anondson 04-02-07, 08:07 PM	If I don't take fighter at 10th, I'll continue with cleric until the end. Which at 10th level would give me cleric 9 and 5th level spells (fire and destruction domains). Taking fighter would push 5th level spells until 11th level. Being a frontline melee type, fire shield would be quite fun. If the character took fighter I was looking at using the 12th level feat for maybe Brutal Strike or Craft Arms and Armor or Craft Wondrous Item.
Mommy was an Orc 04-02-07, 08:20 PM	While it doesn't apply to this character, remember a lot of characters are going to be thinking strongly about MWM and RWM and may not have a free feat available for Improved Crit. You'd be surprised how fast MWM destroys all your spare feats...
copper_wyrmling 04-02-07, 08:51 PM	While it doesn't apply to this character, remember a lot of characters are going to be thinking strongly about MWM and RWM and may not have a free feat available for Improved Crit. You'd be surprised how fast MWM destroys all your spare feats... Yeah ;) I kicked myself, just a little, when I saw MWM - my dervish prebuild changed from ranger 1 / fighter 4 to ranger 1 / barbarian 2 / fighter 2 at the 595 conversion, because I decided the +10ft movement and option for rage outweighed the extra feat. I'm still not sure if I really regret that decision: the extra movement has been VERY useful, and I recently played a game where we fought seven combats in one day, so having rage as well as dervish dance did help. For a high-Str power-attacking falchion-wielder with other flat damage bonuses (who has access to a sacred scabbard: have you seen what happened to the scabbard in the MIC? :eek:), at mid-high levels I suspect Imp Crit starts to become comparable to Weapon Spec + Melee Weapon Mastery anyway, when fighting crittable opponents.
solbergb 04-02-07, 10:45 PM	melee weapon mastery is on the other end of "how often will it come up". As in "all the time". Like weapon focus/weapon spec. In the end, it's +10 damage a swing if you power attack away all the to-hit advantage and use a 2H weapon. Although amortized over the 3 feats it costs, you might call it more like +6 damage (+2 for first feat, +2 for second feat, +6 for melee ewapon mastery) Improved crit by contrast works somewhat less than 5-15% of the time (because of noncrittable monsters and failing to confirm), so your crits had better add enough damage to make up for that. IMHO, on most characters imp crit is more on the level of weapon focus and maybe not even that good, because it is so errattic and doesn't usually do 20x as much damage as just getting another +1 to hit would. If you have the other stuff though, then it starts looking better. I might still take it at L15 for my arcane archer, as he's pretty much out of feats then and it adds good flavor (like getting "keen edge" as well as "GMW" on his arrows without needing spells). There is no way though, that my monk would want it, partly because of the crit range of his flurryable weapons being sucky, but also because of all the many, many feats competing for his attention (including the weapon mastery tree if he made it to L18, but even in LG, there are things like power attack, deadly defense, improved natural attack competing for his short term choices, other attractive feats like acrobatic attack, versitile unarmed strike that add damage or dr penetration in specific situations etc).
Gwumph 04-03-07, 12:01 AM	So What about if your weapon has a crit range 18-20 I wield 2 eagle claws and am heading for the Dervish PrC. Now we all know a Dervish is a feat hungry PrC. So I have to balance 16,000 gp (2 +1/keen eagle claws) at level 10 (have earned roughly 40,000gp) with my 2 remaining feats. I have to do one or the other since I will be making a minimum of 5 attacks per full attack. Good question would be how often have people seen access to keen upgrade??
Eric Anondson 04-03-07, 12:11 AM	Good question would be how often have people seen access to keen upgrade??I've seen it so often that I don't it worry about access for it. On the other hand, I have only seen access to impacting one time since I started in year 2. Maybe it will show up more now that it is in the MIC.
copper_wyrmling 04-03-07, 12:22 AM	I've seen it so often that I don't it worry about access for it. On the other hand, I have only seen access to impacting one time since I started in year 2. Maybe it will show up more now that it is in the MIC. I'm pretty sure my dervish has never seen access: he'd have to burn one of his "any weapon enhancement below X value from the DMG" favors, if he wanted it. I don't remember seeing it with my other PCs, but my sorcerer doesn't use weapons and my cleric fights with a staff, so I might have gotten access and not remembered it.
jstorrie 04-03-07, 04:27 AM	A Rogue1/Ftr1/Swash 1-2/Rogue2-3/Ftr2-4/Swash3-8 Daring Outlaw is the sort of build that'd prefer Imp Crit - one that has plenty of feats to spend, Telling Blow and MWM already. Most builds won't have as much use for it, though. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that unless you have Telling Blow or a really attractive crit range (18-20 or x4) you should avoid Imp Crit and Keen.
boogahwoof 04-04-07, 12:38 AM	I'll say this, I have had a 12th level character loose his total +5 (keen +3 adam frost greatsword) sundered. At a time when I had just spent all my money on something else, so I say the feat is better, cause my backup sword would at least have still had the keen quality. Plus another note I am from the Yeomanry, and we havent seen impact on any AR's. So i favor the heat if you have the open one to get it.