Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Redfist 04-27-07, 01:22 PM	1. What spells do you commonly sculpt? 2. What spells do you commonly quicken? 3. Which feat above have you found more valuable? Do you regret taking either? Basically - I'm on the fence wrt. retraining and am looking for some anecdotal evidence to sway me. I just hit 13th level and currently have empower and sculpt. I'm tempted to either swap out sculpt or improved init for quicken or possibly even split-ray.
Timlagor 04-27-07, 01:33 PM	1) glitterdust. Tentacles is a definitely possibility in the near fututre. 2) None yet but Grease then Glitterdust/Sculpted Grease then maybe Haste look likely in due course. RoE is definitely on the cards too. 3) Sculpt.. but I'm only 11th so far. I definitely get the impression that Sculpt is losing it's edge. I'd think Quicken gets considerably better as you get up to Quickening 3rd level spells... of course Rod could sub for either. I would definitely keep Improved Init if I were you.
Redfist 04-27-07, 01:38 PM	I've been finding that I've prepped a lot of sculpted spells but haven't frequently needed them. I prep a sculpted and regular glitterdust and the regular one is fine for me 95% of the time. My current leaning is to swap sculpt for quicken although doing split-ray enervation sounds fun. As far as rods go, I've had horrible luck. With this PC, all I ever see are lsr extend, lsr silent and lsr empower (once).
copper_wyrmling 04-27-07, 02:15 PM	Well, this isn't for a high-level wizard, but my L12 sorcerer primarily uses Sculpt on Evard's Black Tentacles and Glitterdust. She's occasionally used it to sculpt Fireball to avoid collateral damage. It's the least useful of her metamagics at the moment (others are empower and split ray).
Mattastrophic 04-27-07, 02:29 PM	Think about it like this... how often do you see yourself Sculpting as opposed to how often do you see yourself Quickening? An example: my guy, he's got both a Rod of Lesser Sculpt and a Rod of Lesser Quicken. The Rod of Lesser Sculpt, he uses it on average 0 times/day. The Rod of Lesser Quicken, he almost always empties it every day. -Matt
Redfist 04-27-07, 02:30 PM	I wish I could buy your lsr Quicken rod. lol
dkay807 04-27-07, 02:31 PM	1. What spells do you commonly sculpt? 2. What spells do you commonly quicken? 3. Which feat above have you found more valuable? Do you regret taking either? Basically - I'm on the fence wrt. retraining and am looking for some anecdotal evidence to sway me. I just hit 13th level and currently have empower and sculpt. I'm tempted to either swap out sculpt or improved init for quicken or possibly even split-ray. From my experience, I have found Quicken to be a far less useful tool for wizards than for clerics. I'm going to generalize here and if anyone plays a wizard or cleric that does not follow my generalization, please don't be offended: Wizards typically fill the utility role in a party. Wizards are clutch in situations where everyone needs a mass fly, or the big baddie needs to be put in the penalty box (forecage) or the party needs some serious battlefield control, etc. A wizard is at his most effective when dropping the right spell at the right time - NOT dumping quickened low-level spells for added punch. For that reason, I would say that Sculpt is far more valuable than Quicken. While I don't use Sculpt personally, it is simply because I have a specialized wizard with hardcore feat requirements, but have found many situations in which it could have been useful. I have never had the desire to Quicken anything. Clerics often have many buffs that are extremely helpful in combat and more often than not, the party cleric is at his most useful when buffing the party. Quicken helps you unload those buffs faster - or let's you buff the party and save someone's ass with a quickened resurgence or some such thing.
Redfist 04-27-07, 04:23 PM	Instead of levelling into Fatespinner3, maybe I'll just level into Loremaster3 instead and grab an additional feat. That way I can retrain sculpt into quicken and take split-ray as my loremaster3 feat and experiment. If I somehow miss sculpt, I can retain it back at 14th.
Mommy was an Orc 04-27-07, 05:26 PM	A wizard is at his most effective when dropping the right spell at the right time - NOT dumping quickened low-level spells for added punch. For that reason, I would say that Sculpt is far more valuable than Quicken. The advantage of Quicken is not to add a little more punch - it is to make your top-tier spell harder to get out of or avoid. This is especially true if you can pull it off with a Lesser Rod of Quicken Spell on a 1st-3rd level spell rather than burn a high level feat slot. Examples: Quicken True Strike + Ray of Sudden Maximized Death Quickened Save or Be Conditioned + Battlefield Control Spell. This is especially true for a Rod of Lesser Quicken. Evard's followed up with Quickened Stinking Cloud or Slow. Just Evard's alone can be nasty, but when the Halfling Rogue with the superhigh Escape Artist can't take a full-round action to escape - that's it, he's taking damage for the rest of the combat. Metamagic Focus Rapid Summon Monster X + Quickened Haste on as many BDFs on the party as you can and the Summon'd Monster(s). Etc...
Sieylianna 04-27-07, 05:36 PM	From the perspective of my retired wizard. Sculpt - none. Quicken - Haste, magic missile, shield, true strike, evards. Sculpt has its uses, but I never thought it was worth the complexity. You need to prepare the spell ahead of time and then look for an opportunity to use it where you need sculpt or you're using a higher level slot than needed. Ed
dkay807 04-27-07, 05:51 PM	From the perspective of my retired wizard. Sculpt - none. Quicken - Haste, magic missile, shield, true strike, evards. Sculpt has its uses, but I never thought it was worth the complexity. You need to prepare the spell ahead of time and then look for an opportunity to use it where you need sculpt or you're using a higher level slot than needed. Ed Quickened Haste - Everyone has Boots of Speed that needs Haste by the time you're playing APL 12-14 Quickened Magic Missile - 18 extra damage for a 5th level slot? Waste of a slot Quickened Shield - Why bother casting Shield on yourself? You'll be hit on a '2" anyway Quickened True Strike - I suppose there's a little value here, but not much - casters rarely miss with ranged touch attacks Quickened Evard's - Nifty but not worth an 8th level spell slot IMO.
Drezden 04-27-07, 06:07 PM	I largely agree with Dave's post below. The only spells that my 15th level Archmage has ever quickened are: 1. Quicken True Strike - have used a lot - I'm also a diviner, so it fits right into my 5th level divination slot. Less useful at the highest level since I generally only miss on a "1" anyway. Although some high touch AC targets are still around. 2. Quicken Enlarge Person - used a few times at lower level, when playing up with a big tank. Not useful at higher levels, since with extend rods and PoP1s, I can keep Enlarge Person up for hours and hours anyway. 3. Quicken Scorching Ray - have used effectively a decent number of times, depending on party composition and APL. I also have an Empower (reg.) rod and Mastery of Energy so doing an extra 63 pts. of damage of any energy type is a little more valuable than just 42 pts. of fire damage. This is mainly to take out the caster that is barely standing after first spell of the round (or previous assault). That is it. If you can buy a Quicken rod, get that over taking the feat. I don't think I would take Sculpt Spell at high level though. Split Ray, arcane mastery and some of the sudden feats (Maximize being the best) are all good choices. Some of the newer feats are also worth taking a look at. Daren From my experience, I have found Quicken to be a far less useful tool for wizards than for clerics. I'm going to generalize here and if anyone plays a wizard or cleric that does not follow my generalization, please don't be offended: Wizards typically fill the utility role in a party. Wizards are clutch in situations where everyone needs a mass fly, or the big baddie needs to be put in the penalty box (forecage) or the party needs some serious battlefield control, etc. A wizard is at his most effective when dropping the right spell at the right time - NOT dumping quickened low-level spells for added punch. For that reason, I would say that Sculpt is far more valuable than Quicken. While I don't use Scult personally, it is simply because I have a specialized wizard with hardcore feat requirements, but have found many situations in which is could have been useful. I have never had the desire to Quicken anything. Clerics often have many buffs that are extremely helpful in combat and more often than not, the party cleric is at his most useful when buffing the party. Quicken helps you unload those buffs faster - or let's you buff the party and save someone's ass with a quickened resurgence or some such thing.
dkay807 04-27-07, 06:50 PM	I wouldn't take sculpt either, but hey, to each his own ;) Unless of course I could sculpt whirling blade... sadface.
Mommy was an Orc 04-27-07, 06:53 PM	I think something being left unsaid here is whether or not your wizard is specialized or not. Specialist wizards should see a lot more benefit from Quicken spell than Generalists(and diviners) do - combats should still usually take the same amount of time, regardless of if the character is a generalist or specialist. That leaves the Specialist with 1-4 extra spells that he's not expecting to cast in a given day - those spells can very easily be Quickened. Which is something of a problem for the Diviner - his extra spells tend to be the kind that don't really lend themselves to being Quickened as they won't enhance his primary spell.
Redfist 04-27-07, 06:53 PM	Unfortunately, I need to make the decisions WITHOUT the benefit of counting on access. My current plan is to drop sculpt in favor of quicken and the level into Loremaster 3 giving me an extra feat of Split-ray. If I get good rod access, I can retrain later to accomodate.
UMiskatonic 04-27-07, 07:32 PM	I don't know, I'm not sure I would take either of those feats. As a high level wizard, I get the most use out of Empower Spell, followed closely by carfting feats. I personally like Craft Wondrous, but I've seen Craft Wand put to excellent use as well. If you want to be a ray/orb guy, you can generally hit with touch attacks 90% of the time by 15th level. I think I'd rather have a teleport or wall of force over a quickened true strike most of the time.
clik_ml 04-27-07, 08:47 PM	I've oft been tempted by the allure of cone-sculpted antimagic fields as a high level wizard (and sharing with familiar for extra hilarity), but that's about the only spell I really wanted the feat for.
Sieylianna 04-27-07, 09:05 PM	Quickened Haste - Everyone has Boots of Speed that needs Haste by the time you're playing APL 12-14 Quickened Magic Missile - 18 extra damage for a 5th level slot? Waste of a slot Quickened Shield - Why bother casting Shield on yourself? You'll be hit on a '2" anyway Quickened True Strike - I suppose there's a little value here, but not much - casters rarely miss with ranged touch attacks Quickened Evard's - Nifty but not worth an 8th level spell slot IMO. Access must be a lot different in your region. In my wizard's 18 levels, I only ran into two PCs with boots of speed. Quckened haste meant she could help the rest of the party and still cast an offensive spell. I found quickened magic missiles to be good for finishing off badly wounded foes as well as dispatching the advanced templated incorporeals that authors love to toss at high level parties. Quickened evards combined with cloudkill is unpleasant. With a +12 init modifier, a large number of fights lasted one action. Ed
Mattastrophic 04-27-07, 10:02 PM	I'll often use: -Quickened Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement -Quickened Bands of Steel -Quickened Slow -Quickened True Strike -Quickened Scorching Ray -Quickened Benign Transposition -Quickened Mirror Image -Quickened See Invisibility -Quickened Glitterdust But with a Rod, I can decide on-site, though. -Matt has no time for Quickened Haste these days.
just_be_glad_now 04-27-07, 10:09 PM	Quicken: Benign Transposition, Grease, Glitterdust, Haste, Slow. Sculpt: Grease, Glitterdust, Any fog-related spell, Evards, Antimagic Field. Probably these have all been mentioned, but that is all I use these feats for. It's plenty. The only other metafeat my Wiz15 has is Rapid. Bonus use: Sculpt: Control Weather. Nothing says "You've annoyed the wrong mage" to someone quite like having 'em wake up in the morning to discover a hurricane, hailstorm or blizzard pounding the house for hours or days, while leaving the rest of the neighborhood untouched. That bad boy can be cast from 2 miles away. Another interesting possiblity for a wake up call is the 120 ft line of tornado "Gee I wonder which way it will go..." Brayden Glad
dkay807 04-27-07, 10:38 PM	I'll often use: -Quickened Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement -Quickened Bands of Steel -Quickened Slow -Quickened True Strike -Quickened Scorching Ray -Quickened Benign Transposition -Quickened Mirror Image -Quickened See Invisibility -Quickened Glitterdust But with a Rod, I can decide on-site, though. -Matt has no time for Quickened Haste these days. Yes, that reminds me. I had wanted to point out that Quicken Spell is FAR more useful for a "Gish" (where does that term come from anyway) than a full arcane caster. My spellsword makes common use of quickened true strike, quickened benign transposition and quickened whirling blade.
Reylance 04-29-07, 01:05 AM	My high level wizard (enchanter, Quicken Spell, Energy Substitution Acid) occasionally prepares quickened Glitterdust and Shield (not that useful). My mid level wizard (diviner, Sculpt Spell, Transdimensional Spell) has sculpted Glitterdust and Evard's. Transdimensional Spell is occasionally used for Web, Fireball, and Evard's if the module makes me think incorporeal undead are coming. The feat is also good for scribing scrolls and for Right Scroll for the Job. My high level gish, now HL retired with more spellcasting levels, recently used quickened Arms of Plenty (more attacks) and quickened Greater Slide (to move into position).
JamesMaissen 04-29-07, 02:43 AM	That leaves the Specialist with 1-4 extra spells that he's not expecting to cast in a given day - those spells can very easily be Quickened. Which is something of a problem for the Diviner - his extra spells tend to be the kind that don't really lend themselves to being Quickened as they won't enhance his primary spell. I would think that Diviners would not have much problem slotting a Divination spell each level. I'm not a big fan of specialization for a wizard, but Divinations are wonderful, powerful and only grow with level. The shorter your fights the quicker you need to learn what you are fighting. -James
Mommy was an Orc 04-29-07, 12:27 PM	I would think that Diviners would not have much problem slotting a Divination spell each level. I'm not a big fan of specialization for a wizard, but Divinations are wonderful, powerful and only grow with level. Divination spells aren't generally spells you want to cast in combat, you cast them in combat because you have no choice. The other schools all add spells you want to cast in combat in more generalized situations. Abjuration as an example - I might not need to cast Greater Dispel Magic in every combat at 15th level, but if I take it as my 6th level slot, odds are I can figure out some use for it in combat and hinder the opponent somehow. That's an additional spell to use in combat. The same isn't true for True Seeing or any of the other 6th level Divination spells. Nor do any of the 2nd level Divination spells really lend themselves to be Quickened - they either have a very high duration, take too long to cast, or don't really serve much purpose in combat. Every additional spell that the specialist expects to be able to cast in combat is potentially a spell that can be Quickened - assuming that a generalist doesn't expect to run out of high level combat spells in a mod.
Drezden 04-29-07, 01:30 PM	A few things: Divination has some very good spells to cast in combat. True seeing is a huge difference maker - it can single handedly make a hard combat easy. IME, it is much more important the Greater Dispel Magic. In LG, most really buffed BBG have Ring of Counterspells (Greater Dispel Magic) and your odds on dispelling spells from the BBG are generally under 50%, since he will have a higher caster level than you. I'd much rather prep Antimagic Field if I was an abjurer. Assay Spell Resistance (NONC) is fantastic. Quickened True Strike is probably the best use of the Quickened feat. I agree that See Invisibility will be up all day at high levels anyway - but that is still a spell that you would prep even if you weren't a diviner, so you still get one additional slot. But, to the larger point, I still don't think being a specialist helps you use the Quicken feat that much. It is not matter of finishing with spells - I constantly finish with most of my spells uncast - it is a matter of having the right spell to win the encounter when you need it. For that you need the slots. For example, Reverse Gravity is a killer against non-flying opponents (especially non-casters); Ghostrap totally neuters incoporeal opponents; Limited Wish is your catch all, whatever I need spell. IME, you are going to want to have spells like these (or some other great 7th level spells), prepped with the capability to win encounters, rather than prepping a Quickened 3rd level spell in that slot. Sure, you might not cast some of those spells everyday, but that is more than made up for by having the key spell when you need it. On the other hand, I think a Quicken Rod would be great for a wizard. But the feat is not useful as you think it would be. Daren Divination spells aren't generally spells you want to cast in combat, you cast them in combat because you have no choice. The other schools all add spells you want to cast in combat in more generalized situations. Abjuration as an example - I might not need to cast Greater Dispel Magic in every combat at 15th level, but if I take it as my 6th level slot, odds are I can figure out some use for it in combat and hinder the opponent somehow. That's an additional spell to use in combat. The same isn't true for True Seeing or any of the other 6th level Divination spells. Nor do any of the 2nd level Divination spells really lend themselves to be Quickened - they either have a very high duration, take too long to cast, or don't really serve much purpose in combat. Every additional spell that the specialist expects to be able to cast in combat is potentially a spell that can be Quickened - assuming that a generalist doesn't expect to run out of high level combat spells in a mod.
Mommy was an Orc 04-29-07, 04:49 PM	True seeing is a huge difference maker - it can single handedly make a hard combat easy. IME, it is much more important the Greater Dispel Magic. In LG, most really buffed BBG have Ring of Counterspells (Greater Dispel Magic) and your odds on dispelling spells from the BBG are generally under 50%, since he will have a higher caster level than you. True Seeing is a huge difference maker. But a non-Diviner shouldn't be the one taking it as it can be cast by a cleric as a 5th level spell. It isn't hard to get True Seeing by casting a flexible combat spell - Rapid Metamagic School Focus a Summon Monster VII or VIII for an Avoral. No gp cost either, though it isn't quite the same thing. Or Limited Wish. Either of which are plenty useful if you don't have to cast True Seeing. Same thing goes for Anti-Magic Field vs Greater Dispel Magic. Rings of Counterspelling are not all powerful - they're very vulnerable to a Targeted Quickened Dispel Magic with their 11th caster level - with Arcane Sight up, you can tell if they winked out or not... it is a matter of having the right spell to win the encounter when you need it. For that you need the slots. Sure, you might not cast some of those spells everyday, but that is more than made up for by having the key spell when you need it. I'm really not clear why the specialist must choose to take significantly more of these spells than the non-specialist would.
Drezden 04-29-07, 10:55 PM	We need our Cleric to prep Righteous Wrath and other buffs. :) My point about needing to have more high level slots wasn't directed towards specialists specifically - I agree that all specialists (including diviners) have a better chance at Quickening spells. However, the point I was making was that even with the extra slots - you will likely choose to memorize more high level spells, rather than quickening lower level ones. Daren True Seeing is a huge difference maker. But a non-Diviner shouldn't be the one taking it as it can be cast by a cleric as a 5th level spell. It isn't hard to get True Seeing by casting a flexible combat spell - Rapid Metamagic School Focus a Summon Monster VII or VIII for an Avoral. No gp cost either, though it isn't quite the same thing. Or Limited Wish. Either of which are plenty useful if you don't have to cast True Seeing. Same thing goes for Anti-Magic Field vs Greater Dispel Magic. Rings of Counterspelling are not all powerful - they're very vulnerable to a Targeted Quickened Dispel Magic with their 11th caster level - with Arcane Sight up, you can tell if they winked out or not... I'm really not clear why the specialist must choose to take significantly more of these spells than the non-specialist would.
Maesto 04-30-07, 01:23 AM	I had a diviner5/divine oracle2/loremaster6/archmage2. Now he's only 13th level and without the archmage levels, and has a couple more phobias :( I've got craft wondrous (which I've used to excess) and craft wand (which is pathetic in comparison), as well as quicken spell. I haven't actually gotten that much use out of quicken spell, but I'm sticking with it - it is useful. Quickened glitterdust is the one I usually stick with. I haven't used sculpt much, because I have (had) the archmage ability which rocks. However, I have a lesser sculpt rod - sculpted prestidigitation is just fun! I'm contemplating retraining craft wand for empower (but all that I would really empower are greater firebursts or the big orb spells), or possibly craft rod - I have access to a rod of quicken (no, not lesser. Never seen a lesser one). As others have said, your high level spell slots are usually contingency spells. No, not the "contingency" spell, but spells you have just in case you need them. Examples: AMF for when you need to take out their spells, spell like abilities, etc. Greater dispel for getting rid of those ugly effects, true seeing (for superior invis), and limited wish (the generic catchall). I found my 8th level spellslots were usually mind blank and moment of prescience; the other 8th level slot was given up for the mastery of elements archmage ability.
Rerednaw 05-01-07, 06:58 AM	Unfortunately, I need to make the decisions WITHOUT the benefit of counting on access. ... Quickened Benign Transposition Awesome spell...that I have never seen access for. Then again, I'm still looking for access to POP1. On topic. I'm still getting heavy use out of Sculpt Spell. Mainly because I'm in groups that tend to charge and cluster. Which keeps the bad guys out of my face which isn't necessarily a bad thing. By far the spell I've Sculpted most often is Glitterdust. Even at higher levels it still gets lots of use. I haven't used a Sculpted Grease for a while, but I usually keep one handy. Instead of Quicken, I get more use out of Rapid, but then my wizard is a conjurer/battlefield controller. Getting the summons as a standard is well worth the +1 (or in my MMSF case +0) bump.
Maesto 05-01-07, 08:38 AM	Oh, unless you have a summoner in the power - sculpted magic circles are fun =D
Lomiat 05-01-07, 09:10 PM	Quickening spells: Grease, Magic Missile (for mirror images and to bluff before readying another action), Ray of Enfeeblement, Shield, Benign Transposition, Web, Scorching Ray, Glitterdust, Haste. I like setting up the combos: Quicken Web --> Cloudkill. Quicken Ray of Enfeeblement --> Waves of Exhaustion Etc.
solbergb 05-02-07, 12:05 PM	1. What spells do you commonly sculpt? 2. What spells do you commonly quicken? 3. Which feat above have you found more valuable? Do you regret taking either? . This is a sorcerer, so take with grain of salt. 1. grease, solid fog and evards tentacles 2. I don't, but I use guided shot, swift fly, feather fall and weapon capsule retainers for my swift action so I rarely would have it to spare anyway. 3. I'm not a fan of quicken until the L12-15 game, because I don't think there are enough high level slots in 9-11 to justify blowing one on doing a weak effect. In the later levels, that pressure eases and doing something like transposition, mirror image, truestrike, glitterdust etc in addition to a "real" action is fairly useful. On a wizard, I think sculpt is powerful post-level-9 only if you are inclined to battlefield control spells. (grease and glitterdust having weak save DC's in the higher levels, and very few high level spells being also tiny area like they are). It depends on what you rack though.
solbergb 05-02-07, 12:07 PM	Quickened True Strike - I suppose there's a little value here, but not much - casters rarely miss with ranged touch attacks. It isn't for the attack roll. It is for the concealment miss-chance and sometimes to help with the enemy being under cover, in melee and prone (-12 to hit). You rarely need more than one, and guided shot covers some of that ground.
Fronch 05-03-07, 06:37 PM	It isn't for the attack roll. It is for the concealment miss-chance and sometimes to help with the enemy being under cover, in melee and prone (-12 to hit). You rarely need more than one, and guided shot covers some of that ground.If the enemy is in melee and prone, your fighter should be killing it. The damage you do with your pew-pew spell pales in comparison to what a properly built and buffed fighter can dish out. I'd say that 95% of the spells I cast with my wizard at APL 12-14 involve putting the monsters in boxes or ferrying the party around. I could spend my spell doing 60 damage to the monster, or I could put the fighter into position to do 200+. In answer to the original post: Which spell should you sculpt? Glitterdust. Which spell should you quicken? Glitterdust.
Fronch 05-03-07, 06:41 PM	I'm not a fan of quicken until the L12-15 game, because I don't think there are enough high level slots in 9-11 to justify blowing one on doing a weak effect.Agreed. Also, most of the Open higher level spells aren't very useful in a general sense. You can get most of the jobs you need done with level 4-6 spells. Quicken is all about economy of actions; going twice when the monster only gets to go once. Besides which, as a high level caster, you have way more spells in your brain than you could possibly cast, so using Quickens lets you use those resources more efficiently.
Mommy was an Orc 05-03-07, 07:04 PM	If the enemy is in melee and prone, your fighter should be killing it. The damage you do with your pew-pew spell pales in comparison to what a properly built and buffed fighter can dish out. I'd say that 95% of the spells I cast with my wizard at APL 12-14 involve putting the monsters in boxes or ferrying the party around. I could spend my spell doing 60 damage to the monster, or I could put the fighter into position to do 200+. Or solbergb's sorcerer could do 200+ damage with a single spell. Especially with what the LGCS now considers open access...
solbergb 05-03-07, 07:04 PM	Yeah, but level 9-11 isn't a "high level caster". The level 5-6 slots are your very best slots. That's why I said L12-15 quicken is pretty good, because the slot pressure has gone away, but before that it's not very good. Also the swift action is under a lot more pressure than it used to be. There are a lot of good swift action spells, both high and low level (although the good higher level ones are NONC) Most times when a wizard loads up on direct damage rays it is because his party lacks the "fighter that does lots of damage". Instead it has a cork-mutt that is ineffectual but still shaves -4 to -8 off your attack rolls by getting in the way, or alternately it lacks the means to get at an enemy that is prone, under cover, and a long way away - perhaps the dim door has already been used that day. I still say though, that the truestrike is more to defeat concealment miss chances than for the attack bonus. But there are opponents where the touch attack isn't a gimme - dread wraiths, monks and yes, potent ranged attackers who know how to stack modifiers in their favor.
solbergb 05-03-07, 07:10 PM	Or solbergb's sorcerer could do 200+ damage with a single spell. Especially with what the LGCS now considers open access... Now now...she can't always do that, and there are plenty of opponents her direct damage is ineffectual on. DR really toasts the damage when it's done in a dozen little bits, and high AC is also an extremely effective defense. As a beguiler I chased around a while back discovered though, being invisible just means you take a % of the damage instead of all of it, and I've got enough thrusts to kill an arcane I can pinpoint even at half efficiency.... Also truestrike would not help her at all, as it only works on one of those attacks, and Olivia's trick involves many, many attacks. But yeah, post level 12, if she finds an enemy with AC of 20 or less, has cast chain GMW on her large greatswords and has either been able to maintain a servant horde or tenser disk+minor creation caddy to carry all of those things around until the fight starts and her bard cohort boosts her caster level and there is no concealment/cover/etc issues- she can dish out an average of a touch more than 200 damage a round with a 5th level slot and a standard action. 20% concealment and cover less than full she can eliminate with a swift action added. At level 15 she doesn't need the cohort to do that, with the cohort it's more like 220 damage and her target AC to do it all is more like 25. You'll also note that that 200ish damage stacks several effects and takes a minimum of a L6 slot, L5 slot and either L3+L1 slot or L1 slot and very slow movement, plus a bard pumping caster level. She also usually spends fights "putting bad guys into boxes" There are a lot of "ifs" in there. I expect to do that about twice before retirement :) Maybe 3-4 times if I get into battle interactives where I can set things up just right. What I expect to do is more in the range of what a metamagicked orb or scorching ray does, and that's been pretty much how it worked out on most opponents so far (level 10-11) Alternately I can do about 100 points of damage and toss a light infantry type at the enemy with the thrust, and let him follow with a full attack (at level 11, without the bard present, it's more like 60 points of damage...nothing has yet survived the "Fastball special" but I only toss monks, rogues and similar folks who don't weigh much and who can land on their feet after hurtling through the air with violent thrust)
King Kashue 05-03-07, 07:11 PM	Access must be a lot different in your region. In my wizard's 18 levels, I only ran into two PCs with boots of speed. Quckened haste meant she could help the rest of the party and still cast an offensive spell. Indeed... I've seen people say "High Levels don't use haste", but I've not actually seen it in practice. Haste at higher levels is still bloody brilliant. Even the extra movement for non melee folks can be great. As for the spell question, the "Quicken Ray of Enfeeblement + Bigby's Grasping hand" is nice, or Quickened Ray of Enfeeblement + Bestow curse is another one...
Fronch 05-03-07, 08:51 PM	Indeed... I've seen people say "High Levels don't use haste", but I've not actually seen it in practice. Haste at higher levels is still bloody brilliant. Even the extra movement for non melee folks can be great.There certainly are higher-level fighters that have been unlucky enough to not have Boots of Speed, but in my experience that's pretty rare. Of course, that may vary by region, but I've seen them on several Core AR's. As for giving non-fighters extra movement, it seems like there's always something better I can do with my action.
copper_wyrmling 05-03-07, 09:51 PM	Indeed... I've seen people say "High Levels don't use haste", but I've not actually seen it in practice. Haste at higher levels is still bloody brilliant. Even the extra movement for non melee folks can be great. Eh... with my sorcerer, at L10-11 she was only really casting Haste as a pre-combat buff spell ("Hmmm, the corridor opens out up ahead? I haste the party." "We're about to open a door? I haste the party." "We heard screams? I haste the party.") She got a few false positives, but never enough that I felt bad about burning the spells. Prep-casters can't usually afford to do that, though. Even using the spell that way, I decided at L12 that it wasn't worth having as a known spell. Most fighters actually do seem to have Boots of Speed - Sieylianna, maybe access has gotten more common since your L18 guy retired? I know my four L2+ PCs have all either seen access or gotten generic "one item from the DMG below X cost" favors that could be spent to get access. My L10 fighter picked them up adventure before last (along with a +4 Str belt - he literally spent 99% of his cash on getting those two items, but it was SO worth it). My sorcerer will probably pick up Mass Fly next level: that will give her back the "mass expeditious retreat" capability of Haste, and it lasts MUCH longer. I anticipate using it in pretty much the same way she used Haste, and not worrying about Quickened Haste will leave her swift-action slot free for other things (assay spell resistance, guided shot, quickened magic missile for popping mirror images, quickened glitterdust, quickened scorching ray, quickened empowered ray of enfeeblement and quickened sculpted glitterdust once I get to L14...)
King Kashue 05-03-07, 11:12 PM	There certainly are higher-level fighters that have been unlucky enough to not have Boots of Speed, but in my experience that's pretty rare. Of course, that may vary by region, but I've seen them on several Core AR's. As for giving non-fighters extra movement, it seems like there's always something better I can do with my action. Neither of my high level fighters have gotten access. And depending on character, there are better boots. Steadfast boots are brilliant for a tripper, and my elusive target would much rather have winged boots instead of boots of speed (He actually just put holy on his wep, so he's gonna have to wait a few ARs for the winged boots :D) As for region by region, I play regularly enough in three different regions (and pick up occasional games in four others), and I really haven't seen that many. Could just be the luck of the draw though.
copper_wyrmling 05-04-07, 12:54 AM	Neither of my high level fighters have gotten access. And depending on character, there are better boots. Steadfast boots are brilliant for a tripper, Not so much once the MIC comes out :( and my elusive target would much rather have winged boots instead of boots of speed (He actually just put holy on his wep, so he's gonna have to wait a few ARs for the winged boots :D) Yeah, my dervish needs to figure out a way to fly. Boots of Speed were just too good to pass up for him though (an extra attack, +1 to hit, +1 AC and speed goes up to 70ft? For 12k? drool...) As for region by region, I play regularly enough in three different regions (and pick up occasional games in four others), and I really haven't seen that many. Could just be the luck of the draw though. I've seen access in quite a few Cores (with my sorcerers, sigh). I think my cleric got hers from an Iuz metaregional.
Drezden 05-04-07, 01:12 AM	Boots of Speed are an absolute must have for any serious melee (or archer) character. They are just too good to pass up - especially for just 12,000 gp. As far as the ability to fly, that is what the arcane caster (mass fly) is for. :) I would also just keep a potion of fly at higher levels. Daren Yeah, my dervish needs to figure out a way to fly. Boots of Speed were just too good to pass up for him though (an extra attack, +1 to hit, +1 AC and speed goes up to 70ft? For 12k? drool...)
King Kashue 05-04-07, 01:17 AM	Boots of Speed are an absolute must have for any serious melee (or archer) character. They are just too good to pass up - especially for just 12,000 gp. Can't "pass them up" if you've never gotten access... :( As far as the ability to fly, that is what the arcane caster (mass fly) is for. :) I would also just keep a potion of fly at higher levels. A potion per fight is a wee bit expensive and is also a full round. As for Mass fly, that's two fifth level slots a day, assuming you have an arcanist. And I hate the gorram 30 foot nonsense, every time I've used the spell it does more to limit movement than enable it...
Drezden 05-04-07, 01:27 AM	I guess is access is just luck of the draw/regional variation. I have seen a lot of access to them. You certainly don't want to be blowing potions left and right. But, you do want to be able to fly when you HAVE to. FWIW, you would also have to use 22 potions before you surpassed the cost of the boots. My 15th level wizard has found Mass Fly to be incredibly useful; one of the best utility spells in the game. It has enabled our party to bypass many, many obstacles and made many encounters much more manageable. I consider the spell a must have - especially for melee heavy parties. Daren Can't "pass them up" if you've never gotten access... :( A potion per fight is a wee bit expensive and is also a full round. As for Mass fly, that's two fifth level slots a day, assuming you have an arcanist. And I hate the gorram 30 foot nonsense, every time I've used the spell it does more to limit movement than enable it...
King Kashue 05-04-07, 06:29 AM	You certainly don't want to be blowing potions left and right. But, you do want to be able to fly when you HAVE to. FWIW, you would also have to use 22 potions before you surpassed the cost of the boots. So 7-10 modules...Not that many... As for flying when I have to, flying allows many tactical advantages, higher group being one of them (and as the other thread discussed), a +1 to hit is between 6-10% more damage on average...
Fronch 05-04-07, 06:52 AM	As for flying when I have to, flying allows many tactical advantages, higher group being one of them (and as the other thread discussed), a +1 to hit is between 6-10% more damage on average...Blowing a 750g potion for +1 to hit doesn't seem very cost-effective. Certainly there are fights where you need to fly. I've been murdered by Erinyes too many times at low APL because the party didn't have a way to make anyone fly. I'd say having a Potion of Fly on-hand as a fighter is a good idea, just in case you have no primary arcane caster, but I certainly wouldn't chug it unless I needed to be airborne to get to the monster.
Sieylianna 05-04-07, 08:03 AM	Even using the spell that way, I decided at L12 that it wasn't worth having as a known spell. Most fighters actually do seem to have Boots of Speed - Sieylianna, maybe access has gotten more common since your L18 guy retired? I know my four L2+ PCs have all either seen access or gotten generic "one item from the DMG below X cost" favors that could be spent to get access. My L10 fighter picked them up adventure before last (along with a +4 Str belt - he literally spent 99% of his cash on getting those two items, but it was SO worth it). It's possible that access has improved since she retired at the end of 2005. None of my other PCs has boots of speed, but it's possible that they were offered at a higher APL. I've only seen steadfast boots once and that is something which would be nice with tripping becoming a more popular tactic for authors. Ed
dkay807 05-04-07, 10:15 AM	Can't "pass them up" if you've never gotten access... :( A potion per fight is a wee bit expensive and is also a full round. As for Mass fly, that's two fifth level slots a day, assuming you have an arcanist. And I hate the gorram 30 foot nonsense, every time I've used the spell it does more to limit movement than enable it... I have to agree with Daren on this. Mass Fly is arguably one of the best spells for any arcane caster to carry. My Wizard began prepping it the minute he hit level 9 and has never not prepped it since and it has been infinitely useful. Every PC must have the capability to fly at APL 10+ in case there is no arcanist in the party to rely upon. This could be either Celestial Armor, Potions of Fly, or some other mechanism. Winged Boots are an option, but melee PCs should keep in mind that they should NOT expect to be getting a haste cast on them at APL 12+, they are responsible for having their own Boots of Speed. In my opinion, the arcanist in the party should not be hasting the party at APL 12+ unless god-forbid none of the melee PCs have Boots of Speed.
dkay807 05-04-07, 10:51 AM	So 7-10 modules...Not that many... As for flying when I have to, flying allows many tactical advantages, higher group being one of them (and as the other thread discussed), a +1 to hit is between 6-10% more damage on average... I play a Spellsword that always has Fly prepped. I RARELY find the need to Fly... 22 potions of Fly will take a long time to use up if you only drink them when you need to fly, as opposed to every single encounter as you suggest. Also, you have the luxury of paying for them one at a time... i.e. in installments. Anyone with a mortgage to pay can tell you how big a luxury that is ;) I understand the icky feeling you get when you use consumable as opposed to a nice permanent item that gives you the same ability... believe me, I do... but in this case, I just don't see Winged Boots being worth the cost for the benefit they provide. However, spending a standard action to Fly when you're only Flying to get a slight tactical advantage isn't worth the standard action, especially at higher levels. I would only use Fly or expect someone to cast Fly on me when: 1. We need to get over an obstacle 2. We need to reach a pesky flying opponent that didn't get dropped in one round by our archer(s) 3. We need to avoid moving in diffiult terrain (no 5-foot steps is a killer) 4. We're underwater and for some reason, FOM is unavailable (though most of us have rings)
Mattastrophic 05-04-07, 11:48 AM	However, spending a standard action to Fly when you're only Flying to get a slight tactical advantage isn't worth the standard action, especially at higher levels. Totally agreed. I found myself not having time for Fly back at level 7, so I've used Extended Swift Fly ever since. As for the Haste issue... myself, I don't even have time for Quickened Haste anymore. If someone doesn't have Boots of Speed, I lend my own pair out. -Matt
Redfist 05-04-07, 12:10 PM	So 7-10 modules...Not that many... As for flying when I have to, flying allows many tactical advantages, higher group being one of them (and as the other thread discussed), a +1 to hit is between 6-10% more damage on average... Also keep in mind though that the +1 is only for melee attacks. Many people seem to believe that the +1 bonus is for ranged also. It's not.
copper_wyrmling 05-04-07, 01:21 PM	Totally agreed. I found myself not having time for Fly back at level 7, so I've used Extended Swift Fly ever since. Eh, my sorcerer likes being able to make OTHER people fly when necessary (rogues for scouting, tanks for hurting flying things) - it's often a bit of a waste to cast it on herself, since she tends to be one of the best ranged attackers in the party. (If she needs to get the squishies off the ground quickly, she has ways to do that, but they don't involve Fly spells.) She also used to use Fly preemptively, in the same way she used Haste ("Combat senses twitching. I cast Fly"), although of late her L3 slots are all getting eaten up by phantom steed and greater magic weapon.
Mattastrophic 05-04-07, 04:52 PM	Eh, my sorcerer likes being able to make OTHER people fly when necessary Nahh. Just use Mass Fly for out-of-combat, and if there's a flying opponent, that's usually my cue to step up and take that guy out. -Matt
solbergb 05-04-07, 05:31 PM	Nahh. Just use Mass Fly for out-of-combat, and if there's a flying opponent, that's usually my cue to step up and take that guy out. -Matt Yeah, usually that's the situation where I'll actually uncork the TK violent thrust instead of doing something else. But only if I think I can eliminate the threat (combined with any other significant ranged attackers in the party). If I'm not up to the threat, I'll be trying to get one or more fighters up there. Where I use my more limited version of mass fly (chain levitate) is to get away from melee monsters...it's a defensive measure for the party, not an offensive measure. Most uses of mass fly I've seen have been defensive, rather than offensive, but it's a lot more amenable to being an offensive tool than chain levitate is.
Lomiat 05-04-07, 07:00 PM	Every PC must have the capability to fly at APL 10+ in case there is no arcanist in the party to rely upon. This could be either Celestial Armor, Potions of Fly, or some other mechanism. Winged Boots are an option, but melee PCs should keep in mind that they should NOT expect to be getting a haste cast on them at APL 12+, they are responsible for having their own Boots of Speed. In my opinion, the arcanist in the party should not be hasting the party at APL 12+ unless god-forbid none of the melee PCs have Boots of Speed. I have found this to be completely untrue in my experience. To date, I've played two characters up to 13th level each. While my arcanist has been flying hours/level/day ever since 9th level, he's never *needed* to make other PCs fly, nor has he often felt it was among his better options (the fact that his bodyguard likes to fly means he often preps the spell, but that's not a matter of necessity). My fighter, meanwhile, has flown all of one or two times, and neither was necessary. Remember, many PCs have ranged weapons. With the new LGCS, my fighter even dished out the cash for a composite +8 STR bow. Meanwhile, there are few things that get out of his reach (and still participate in the combat) once he's enlarged, wielding his guisarme, and prepared to leap 30+ feat into the air. (Boots of Speed = Boots of Limited Flying Due to a +12 Jump Check Modifier.)
King Kashue 05-04-07, 07:38 PM	Blowing a 750g potion for +1 to hit doesn't seem very cost-effective. That's kind of my point. :D I play a Spellsword that always has Fly prepped. I RARELY find the need to Fly... 22 potions of Fly will take a long time to use up if you only drink them when you need to fly, as opposed to every single encounter as you suggest. No offense (and this is going to sound standoffish, but meh), but you really have no idea what my character does or doesn't need. The tactical needs of a whirlwinding elusive target with a ring of blinking are probably rather different than the needs of your spellsword. For a character that relies on both getting himself surrounded and having the ability to get himself out of that situation (if a string of bad rolls comes around) is quite different than nearly every other type of melee fighter. but in this case, I just don't see Winged Boots being worth the cost for the benefit they provide. But you really don't know what "this case" is, as mentioned. However, spending a standard action to Fly when you're only Flying to get a slight tactical advantage isn't worth the standard action, especially at higher levels. And, as mentioned, it's actually a significant tactical advantage for me. The times I can get fly vastly opens up my movement and tactical options, and provides a safety net if the mung hits the fan... There are quite a few tactical approaches that make wonderful sense for my character but would be horrible errors for others. ;) Also keep in mind though that the +1 is only for melee attacks. Many people seem to believe that the +1 bonus is for ranged also. It's not. Yep, I know. This is an entirely melee character. :D
copper_wyrmling 05-04-07, 07:54 PM	Nahh. Just use Mass Fly for out-of-combat, and if there's a flying opponent, that's usually my cue to step up and take that guy out. Sure, at the levels where casting Mass Fly many times / day is an option - my sorc will probably drop Fly once she gets Mass Fly, but at lower levels it was nice to be able to burn Fly spells whenever needed (out-of-combat) rather than worrying about conserving top-tier slots. You did say you'd stopped using Fly at L7 ;) I was just saying that the majority of times when my sorc used Fly, it wasn't on herself (she can attack pretty well from the ground, and if the enemies are groundbound, they're not usually a threat to her after the first round) - extended swift fly is only a good replacement if you're not planning to give anybody else flight capability (in which case it is indeed very good).
Drezden 05-04-07, 09:16 PM	Oh sure, my party's BDFs can shoot bows - hell they might even hit with a few arrows. However, what damage will that be for? 1d8+9 (w/+8 Str Bow)? I'd rather have them able to use all their feats, their best weapons and items and hit for 50-60+ pts a smack. Daren [snip] Remember, many PCs have ranged weapons. With the new LGCS, my fighter even dished out the cash for a composite +8 STR bow. Meanwhile, there are few things that get out of his reach (and still participate in the combat) once he's enlarged, wielding his guisarme, and prepared to leap 30+ feat into the air. (Boots of Speed = Boots of Limited Flying Due to a +12 Jump Check Modifier.)
dkay807 05-04-07, 11:11 PM	That's kind of my point. :D No offense (and this is going to sound standoffish, but meh), but you really have no idea what my character does or doesn't need. The tactical needs of a whirlwinding elusive target with a ring of blinking are probably rather different than the needs of your spellsword. For a character that relies on both getting himself surrounded and having the ability to get himself out of that situation (if a string of bad rolls comes around) is quite different than nearly every other type of melee fighter. But you really don't know what "this case" is, as mentioned. No offense taken, I definitely am not familiar with your PC. Clearly, Winged Boots are of great benefit to your character. As long as you don't expect anyone to cast Haste on you because you chose Winged Boots over Boots of Speed... Haste isn't nearly as effective when it's only being cast for the sake of one person (unless you have a buddy that plays an arcanist and you guys planned it out that way).
King Kashue 05-04-07, 11:53 PM	No offense taken, I definitely am not familiar with your PC. Clearly, Winged Boots are of great benefit to your character. As long as you don't expect anyone to cast Haste on you because you chose Winged Boots over Boots of Speed... Haste isn't nearly as effective when it's only being cast for the sake of one person (unless you have a buddy that plays an arcanist and you guys planned it out that way). Well, as I said, I've not run into the "Haste doesn't get cast at 12+" phenomenon, so it hasn't been an issue :D Though also, as a whirlwinder, haste is sometimes of less value to me than others... My other 12+ fighter can't even wear boots when his feat become paws, so :D