Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jay_Ibero_911 09-10-07, 05:02 PM	It is an open feat in LG...except that for PC's only a wizard/cleric/druid with full casting would be able to take it, and only at 15th level, and even then only to get an infinite use 0 level spell...at the cost of an 8th level spell slot...It's like an incredibly inefficient reserve feat at that point...But I have to say, anyone who takes it gets mucho style points in my book, especially depending on what 0 level spell they use it for. Infinite create water could be fun...create 30 gallons of water every round...fill up a pool pretty quick.
copper_wyrmling 09-10-07, 05:31 PM	It is an open feat in LG...except that for PC's only a wizard/cleric/druid with full casting would be able to take it, and only at 15th level, and even then only to get an infinite use 0 level spell...at the cost of an 8th level spell slot...It's like an incredibly inefficient reserve feat at that point...But I have to say, anyone who takes it gets mucho style points in my book, especially depending on what 0 level spell they use it for. Infinite create water could be fun...create 30 gallons of water every round...fill up a pool pretty quick. To answer your question: no, I can't imagine anyone ever taking it. Infinite-use Cure Minor sounds kinda cool, but Lesser Vigor plus pearls of power is effectively the same thing and doesn't cost a feat and a L8 slot (and you don't need to spend an action every round to keep the lesser vigors going). High-level casters have enough low-level spells (or in the case of prep-casters, tend to carry enough low-level pearls) that they're infinite-use anyway for most practical intents and purposes. That said, don't underestimate cantrips: my L13 sorc has gotten a lot of good use out of them, and now she can quicken them it's even better :) (Quickened Open/Close, Quickened Dancing Lights and Quickened Mage Hand can all be surprisingly useful - Sculpted Prestidigitation is also great.)
Wraith235 09-10-07, 05:54 PM	I can think of 1 class taking it ... Healer for Cure minor Wound ... I havent done the math ... but it would be Far more effecient than trhe ammount of Cure minors they get currently
solbergb 09-13-07, 08:04 PM	not all feats are created equal. I believe reserve feats were invented to improve on this very crappy feat.
paigeoliver 09-14-07, 07:52 AM	The healer thing is a good idea in theory, but in reality a 15th level healer isn't ever going to run out of healing unless she was trying to heal up an army, and that is the sort of thing that isn't going to be happening in Living Greyhawk.
UMiskatonic 09-14-07, 12:38 PM	Reserve feats were a playtest for non-Vancian spell-casting, just like the Warlock was. In my opinion, they started out on the weak side, and Wizards will hopefully make them a bit more powerful in 4e. But no, I would never take Innate Spell.
Mommy was an Orc 09-14-07, 01:00 PM	There are a couple of interesting applications for it, but I don't think they're really worth it and you can't do them in LG. Identify - 5K for Identify at will, once per round. Unseen Servant - this one has all kinds of potential for abuse. Each one lasts 17+ hours...spend an hour in the morning summoning them up - that's 600 of them...sure, they're vulnerable to all kinds of stuff, but if you have enough of the stupid things, they start to simulate certain higher level spells(have them drag a 30 ton object as an example)
awroe 09-14-07, 01:24 PM	There are a couple of interesting applications for it, but I don't think they're really worth it and you can't do them in LG. Identify - 5K for Identify at will, once per round. Unseen Servant - this one has all kinds of potential for abuse. Each one lasts 17+ hours...spend an hour in the morning summoning them up - that's 600 of them...sure, they're vulnerable to all kinds of stuff, but if you have enough of the stupid things, they start to simulate certain higher level spells(have them drag a 30 ton object as an example) I like the Unseen Servant idea - really makes Servant Horde look feeble... Not convinced about the identify though - Analyse Dweomer gets you 17+ objects identified as a 6th level slot, and you can get a couple of items in the MIC that give you free Identifies. It gets a bit more useful when you start getting Epic slots you can use - with a 17th level slot you can get Time Stop at will :D
solbergb 09-14-07, 01:41 PM	Unseen Servant - this one has all kinds of potential for abuse. Each one lasts 17+ hours...spend an hour in the morning summoning them up - that's 600 of them...sure, they're vulnerable to all kinds of stuff, but if you have enough of the stupid things, they start to simulate certain higher level spells(have them drag a 30 ton object as an example) Sorcerers can already do that :) The limit on servants is the move action to direct the spell on each individual one. This is why servant horde is better for that kind of thing, because the direction is done all at once and they can work together better.
clik_ml 09-14-07, 06:41 PM	How do the unseen servants know you are talking to it and not the rest? "You, servant there, 113th from the left. My left. *sigh* Go help servants 1 through 112 lift that statue." I don't see why a command could not be addressed to the entire unofficial horde. Is there a rule explicitly preventing such a thing?
solbergb 09-17-07, 03:01 PM	Unseen servants aren't directed by voice. They are directed via the "Direct a spell" action. They're not creatures, they are a spell effect just like a flaming sphere, spiritual weapon or bigby's hand spell. This is a balancing factor. It takes a move action (not a free action that can be done outside of your turn). It also makes the higher level spells that get more servants in one spell more useful than just casting multiples of the lower level spell. It does mean silence doesn't interfere with directing servants, but that's about the only upside.
Xeorsos 09-25-07, 06:41 AM	What about taking Lesser Orb of Acid? Sure, at level 18 it's not going to be much of a help in combat, but no door or wall will ever stand in your way again. Or Summon Monster I? Cannon fodder, anyone? The feat isn't about getting a low spell lots of times like a reserve feat is. It's about getting something low level that becomes highly exploitable when you can cast it 400 times in a row. For instance, these spells: Blades of Fire: Expend your swift action every round and get +1d8 fire damage on your weapon(s) that stacks with any elemental damage already on the things. Critical Strike: Expend your swift action every round to get +1d6 sneak attack, Improved Critical, and Power Critical. Distract Assailant: Expend your swift action every turn to permanently render a foe flat-footed. Can you think of the abuse? Incite: Never be counterspelled again. Improvisation: 36 improv points to spend on anything I like over the next 18 rounds. This just gets ridiculous. Just flip through your books and try to read the spells as if you could cast it every round. The feat isn't that bad- actually, it's pretty amazing if you can work it into a build. The only problem is sacrificing a 9th level spell slot.
control freak 09-25-07, 08:23 AM	because epic level spells are fun (wish at will any one! :D) personaly i think that a good first level spell would be summon I its cannon fodder and your never surprized, also its fun to be followed by a pack of wolves for wizards, this + greater mage hand USE THE FORCE MY WIZARD SON! lol
solbergb 09-25-07, 11:56 AM	Blades of Fire: Expend your swift action every round and get +1d8 fire damage on your weapon(s) that stacks with any elemental damage already on the things. Critical Strike: Expend your swift action every round to get +1d6 sneak attack, Improved Critical, and Power Critical. Distract Assailant: Expend your swift action every turn to permanently render a foe flat-footed. Can you think of the abuse? Incite: Never be counterspelled again. Improvisation: 36 improv points to spend on anything I like over the next 18 rounds. This just gets ridiculous. . But with rapid metamagic and quicken spell a sorcerer could likely do any of these every round of every combat he's likely to do during a day (or any of his other low level spells, if they are more useful) If you're talking a wizard, maybe. The cost is awfully high though. Most of those are melee spells, meaning you are not a full wizard and have even fewer L9 spell slots. Improv is a bard thing, and they don't have 9th level slots, so it doesn't work at all. Sublime chords could I guess, but they aren't exactly dripping with L9 spell slots either.
Mattastrophic 09-25-07, 12:47 PM	Blades of Fire: Expend your swift action every round and get +1d8 fire damage on your weapon(s) that stacks with any elemental damage already on the things. Critical Strike: Expend your swift action every round to get +1d6 sneak attack, Improved Critical, and Power Critical. Distract Assailant: Expend your swift action every turn to permanently render a foe flat-footed. Can you think of the abuse? Incite: Never be counterspelled again. Improvisation: 36 improv points to spend on anything I like over the next 18 rounds. This just gets ridiculous. When you've got 9th-level spells, those spells are a waste of your time. Improvisation would be a good one, but... *doh!* It's a bard spell. (and it's not on the Sublime Chord list either, before anyone asks) -Matt
solbergb 09-25-07, 01:00 PM	mea culpa. I had this vague notion that all bard spells were on sublime chord, but of course they don't get L1 and L2 sublime chord slots. I've done my best to pretend Sublime Chord doesn't exist. It annoys me in a way similar to why unseen seer annoys me. They should have just given bards better L5-7 spells instead of doing a weird hybrid wiz/bard thing. Some of the stuff that landed on the beguiler list is actually pretty fun. (I had a blast with "Friend to Foe" and "Incite Riot" used against PC's in a recent mod I ran...)
KarmaInferno 09-25-07, 02:47 PM	Most Sublime Chords are also bards of at least 7th level, however. -karma
solbergb 09-25-07, 03:55 PM	Most Sublime Chords are also bards of at least 7th level, however. -karma Yes, but they don't have a 9th level bard spell slot to sacrifice so...you can't take the feat. It requires you to have a 9th level slot (or 8th for cantrips) and a low level spell on the same spell list.
Xeorsos 09-25-07, 05:30 PM	Yes, but they don't have a 9th level bard spell slot to sacrifice so...you can't take the feat. It requires you to have a 9th level slot (or 8th for cantrips) and a low level spell on the same spell list. I'd have to argue that, RAW. It only says that you need to give up a slot 8 levels higher, not a slot 8 levels higher on the same list. Sure, it's splitting hairs, and with any other combination I'd call bogus, but I think it works (thematically and technically) with the bard/sublime chord.
solbergb 09-25-07, 08:08 PM	I'd have to argue that, RAW. It only says that you need to give up a slot 8 levels higher, not a slot 8 levels higher on the same list. Consider the mystic theurge case with wiz3/cleric3/MT10/wiz4 13th level cleric, 17th level wizard. Can you use a L9 wizard slot to "innate" cure light wounds? I don't think you could, any more than you could "extra spell" a 7th level cleric spell because you happen to also have 9th level casting in wizard. Certainly it's a foolish choice in Living Greyhawk where you would be at the mercy of the GM every time.
Mattastrophic 09-25-07, 08:19 PM	I've done my best to pretend Sublime Chord doesn't exist. It annoys me in a way similar to why unseen seer annoys me. On the flipside, all Sublime Chord shows is that Bard is weak, not that Sublime Chord is too strong. Just like with Unseen Seer calling Arcane Trickster weak. -Matt likes the Virtuoso though.
solbergb 09-26-07, 12:12 PM	No....the sublime chord gives up on being a bard. It turns it into a bard/wizard hybrid with utterly bizzare mechanics. The unseen seer isn't just better than arcane trickster it is flat out better at every role a rogue fills than a rogue is. (even sneak attack...gets less dice but can use it vs any foe if you choose your free divinations spells from other lists correctly) It pretty much means that if you don't take an arcane level as a rogue and become one, you're an idiot. Which is generally a sign that it went too far. They could have at least provided a rogue PRC that did NOT involve magic to provide a bit of balance. Maybe 10 skill points a level and can sneak attack anything, has normal sneak progression and advances the "rogue only" feat path.
Mattastrophic 09-26-07, 05:12 PM	No....the sublime chord gives up on being a bard. It turns it into a bard/wizard hybrid with utterly bizzare mechanics. Exactly. It shows the bard is weak by showing that sorcerer-style (well, actually, sub-par sorcerer-casting) is stronger than it. The unseen seer isn't just better than arcane trickster it is flat out better at every role a rogue fills than a rogue is. Actually, all that's proven is the Rogue/caster calling the Rogue weak. It's been that way ever since Complete Adventurer. Then Unseen Seer calls the Arcane Trickster weak, and here we are. Any arguments of "brokenness" should be directed at the spells in Complete Adventurer, not the Unseen Seer. All the Seer does is reveal problems that are already there. But the campaign and 3.5 are ending anyway, so it's only academic at this point. -Matt
Hariman 09-26-07, 08:23 PM	No....the sublime chord gives up on being a bard. It turns it into a bard/wizard hybrid with utterly bizzare mechanics. The unseen seer isn't just better than arcane trickster it is flat out better at every role a rogue fills than a rogue is. (even sneak attack...gets less dice but can use it vs any foe if you choose your free divinations spells from other lists correctly) It pretty much means that if you don't take an arcane level as a rogue and become one, you're an idiot. Which is generally a sign that it went too far. They could have at least provided a rogue PRC that did NOT involve magic to provide a bit of balance. Maybe 10 skill points a level and can sneak attack anything, has normal sneak progression and advances the "rogue only" feat path. Dragon Devotee is good for either a Fighter or a Rogue. But it still involves a little bit of casting. Nightsong Infiltrator is pretty good. Dread Pirate too. (Dishonorable path, not the honorable path.) Part of the reason for having weaknesses in character classes is so that the other characters can shine when your character can't do anything. (A warlock with the see invisibility invocation will outshine a character without it in a fight VS invisibles and ninjas. But the fighters will destroy the High SR, low AC, mid HP, acid immune enemies. Clerics will destroy and damage weak undead faster than anyone else.) Sublime Chord lets a Bard take on a casting role that he normally can't take, while sacrificing his ordinary bard abilities. (Which are not a small thing in a decent sized party.) Innate Spell let's a character take a first level spell for use as a spell like ability. For certain builds, it would be great with something that was an immediate action, or a swift action. Always having Critical Strike or Arrow Mind available is pretty damn good. And other spells can be just as useful.
Istaran 09-26-07, 08:38 PM	When you've got 9th-level spells, those spells are a waste of your time. Improvisation would be a good one, but... *doh!* It's a bard spell. (and it's not on the Sublime Chord list either, before anyone asks) -Matt I thought the Sublime Chord list was defined as the bard list plus the sorcerer list. Is there some exception in the RAW (or a FAQ or something?) saying lower level bard/sorc spells are not on the sublime chord list? This makes a little bit of a difference already as it affects which magic items a bard/sublime chord can use w/o UMD, etc.
clik_ml 09-27-07, 03:54 AM	The unseen seer isn't just better than arcane trickster it is flat out better at every role a rogue fills than a rogue is. (even sneak attack...gets less dice but can use it vs any foe if you choose your free divinations spells from other lists correctly) Did I miss the spells that let you sneak attack elementals and oozes? My soon-to-be Unseen Seer has gots to know! My last mod played by that character had to contend with topiary guardians and elementals. Ugh. If there were any other class that let me use sneak attack more often I'd take that, but Unseen Seer is the first class that has come close to filling the niche. That Unseen Seer is a gateway to Arcane Strike, Haste, Greater Invisibility, etc. is simply gravy. Next closest design to allowing sneak attacks would be a theurgish type character who dipped multiple casting types for the swift "Strike" spells... but that would be so awful with your BAB of +Nothing and crippled sneak attack progression that it never could be a serious option. I'm not sore at all that finally there is a class that lets my rogue do something in combats other than set my wealth on fire via expendable items (tanglefoot bags, alchemists fire, UMD scrolls) whenever I meet the copious creatures which are immune to sneak attack. Unseen Seer didn't go too far, it was just overdue.
solbergb 09-27-07, 11:51 AM	Well, vine strike would have helped with the topiaries, and it is something you can get as an unseen seer via advanced learning, after you get gravestrike. Elementals and oozes you're still stuck. Although you have full casting which means pack some will save spells for the elementals and some energy spells for the oozes and it's all good.
solbergb 09-27-07, 11:52 AM	I thought the Sublime Chord list was defined as the bard list plus the sorcerer list. It is, except that it doesn't include any cantrips, first or second level spells, because it has no cantrips,first or second level spells known or spell slots. (maybe third level too, I can't remember)
JamesMaissen 09-28-07, 06:41 AM	It is, except that it doesn't include any cantrips, first or second level spells, because it has no cantrips,first or second level spells known or spell slots. (maybe third level too, I can't remember) While they might not have lower level slots, I'm not sure they don't get those for their spell list. There was some talk about taking lower level spells for spells known for spontaneous casters. It doesn't seem out of line to let someone do. Now I grant you that the sublime cord is one of those PrCs that are really out to change base classes. This is problematic in its own right. Compound it with a new mold and WOTC is sure to mess it up/do it shoddily. -James
solbergb 09-28-07, 01:45 PM	I don't think you can take as spells known something lower level than the spell known "slot". Eg, my sorceress can't just take greater mage armor at level 13 as a 4th level spell known. She has to retrain, swapping out servant horde (L3) and ottiluke's sphere (L4) for greater mage armor (L3) and Mass Unseen Servant (L4). This is why you probably don't get the lower level bard (or wizard/sorc) spells on the sublime chord "list". Even if you did get it on the list, I think innate spell requires that your spell is a spell known, which you can't have.
Xeorsos 09-28-07, 03:42 PM	I don't think you can take as spells known something lower level than the spell known "slot". Eg, my sorceress can't just take greater mage armor at level 13 as a 4th level spell known. She has to retrain, swapping out servant horde (L3) and ottiluke's sphere (L4) for greater mage armor (L3) and Mass Unseen Servant (L4). This is why you probably don't get the lower level bard (or wizard/sorc) spells on the sublime chord "list". Even if you did get it on the list, I think innate spell requires that your spell is a spell known, which you can't have. I understand the arguments, but the Sublime Chord is explicitly designed to extend bardic casting to 9th level, by even including the bard spells on its spell list. Why would it be such a stretch to argue that your lower level bard spells could be used for the Innate Spell by expending a sublime chord spell slot? It seems entirely reasonable to me, RAI.
KarmaInferno 09-28-07, 04:15 PM	For what it's worth, I asked Customer Service if I could, say, Empower a 2nd level Sublime Chord spell to take up a 4th level slot. Their response was that the Sublime Chord does not know any spells of 1st to 3rd level at all. Spells from other classes, even Bard, do not count. What you're proposing is really no different than a Bard/Cleric "Innate"-ing a 1st level Bard spell by burning a 9th level Cleric slot. -karma
JamesMaissen 09-29-07, 01:34 AM	For what it's worth, I asked Customer Service Approaching what it's worth to ask my magic 8 ball.. but that's only because it's been on a bad streak of rotten luck getting things wrong. Customer Service is fine for well.. customer service. But it's not 'rules lawyers' consultations' that some people wish to take them as. -James
jstorrie 09-29-07, 02:19 PM	Complete Arcane, page 61: 'A Sublime Chord has the ability to cast a small number of spells, all of 4th level or higher.' So there you go: Sublime Chords can't cast spells of lower than 4th level as Sublime Chord spells (though they can cast those lower-level spells as Bard spells, or Wizard spells, or whatever they used to qualify.)