Interesting Feint build [Archive] - Wizards Community

Interesting Feint build [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
_metz_
05-05-07, 02:31 AM What do you guys think of this build? Its very much still under construction... Idea is cheeky pirate who sneak attacks - like a LOT. (???) refers to feats - not sure what to take

Grey Elf

Str: 12
Dex: 16
Con: 13
Int: 16
Wis: 8
Cha: 10

1. Rogue1: Quick draw
2. Swashbuckler1: Weapon Finesse
3. Rogue2: (???)
4. Wizard: (Stat bump Con)
5. Swashbuckler2:
6. Rogue3: Two Weapon Fighting
7. Unseen Seer1:
8. Unseen Seer2: (Stat bump Dex)
9. Swashbuckler3: Daring Outlaw
10. Scarlet Corsair1: Improved Feint
11. Scarlet Corsair2:
12. Scarlet Corsair3: Better Improved Feint (???) (Stat bump Dex)
13. Swashbuckler
14. Swashbuckler
15. Swashbuckler (???)

Its just an idea, will end up with 6d6 sneak attack, grave strike, etc Bab of +12 (I think) Two Weapon fighting, and can feint as a free action. (hence lots of sneaking)

Am thinking of taking Leadership at some point so I have a first mate and can crew a ship if I get one. Was thinking of throwing one level of dread pirate in for the TWF for free, but delays the build. (and fits the character)

Do you think this will work at all? I am a little unsure, seems like it blooms a little too late, SO at lower levels will operate as a locksmith, bluffer and searcher.
Nerax
05-05-07, 10:27 AM If I am not mistaken, you need Combat Expertise for Imp Feint.
_metz_
05-05-07, 10:35 AM If I am not mistaken, you need Combat Expertise for Imp Feint.

The following are class features of the scarlet corsair
prestige class.

1st level

Improved Feint: Upon joining this prestige class you gain Improved Feint as a bonus feat, even if you do not have the normal prerequisites for that feat. You can feint in combat as a move action to render your foes flat-footed and thus make sneak attacks against them.

3rd level.

Corsair’s Feint (Ex): As a scarlet corsair, you are a master of dirty fighting and trickery. You can make a feint as a free action rather than as a move action (see the Improved Feint feat, page 95 of the Player’s Handbook). But once you’ve surprised your enemies with such a feint, it takes time before you’re able to fool them again. At 3rd level, you must wait 2d4 rounds before using corsair’s feint again. At 7th level it is 1d4 rounds.
Lomiat
05-05-07, 10:38 PM The 1d4 rounds is a kicker. I got really excited the first time I saw the Scarlet Corsair class; then I read it closely.

If you want free-action feints, Invisible Blade is a better PrC.
ThaiGQ
05-06-07, 06:39 AM The 1d4 rounds is a kicker. I got really excited the first time I saw the Scarlet Corsair class; then I read it closely.

If you want free-action feints, Invisible Blade is a better PrC.

Yeah, I agree, but then he's limited to using daggers or dagger-like weapons (unless he doesn't mind losing out on 3d6 points worth of sneak attack) and he'd have to use 3 extra feats that aren't already in his build to qualify for it.

I suppose he could do something like this:

1. Rogue1: Point Blank Shot, +1d6 SA
2. Swashbuckler1: Weapon Finesse
3. Fighter1: WF (Dagger), Combat Expertise
4. Wizard1: Scribe Scroll, Stat. bump Con
5. Rogue2: Evasion
6. Unseen Seer1: Far Shot, +2d6 SA
7. Unseen Seer2
8. Invisible Blade1: Dagger SA +1d6, Unfettered Defense, Stat. bump Dex
9. Invisible Blade2: Bleeding Wound, TWF
10. Invisible Blade3: Dagger SA +2d6, Uncanny Feint (Move Action)
11. Invisible Blade4: Feint Mastery
12. Invisible Blade5: Dagger SA +3d6, Uncanny Feint (Free Action), Daring Outlaw, Stat. bump Dex
13. Fighter2: Deadly Defense
14. Swashbuckler2
15. Swashbuckler3: Insightful Strike, ICE/ITWF (?)

Not sure if this would fit your character concept (RP-wise), but the abilities from your original build are still there with maybe a few more abilities. You end up with +7d6 SA when using daggers (+8d6 if using Deadly Defense), can feint in combat as a free action (and can take 10 on your Bluff check when feinting), bonus to AC and damage from Int., can cast Golem/Grave Strike (whichever is appropriate), and can use Combat Expertise for the boosted AC if you need it since you won't be losing any attack modifiers to PA.

I'm not clear on the rules about precision damage (SA and Insightful Strike) on your off-hand weapon though. If it doesn't apply, you might want to switch out the TWF feats for something else...maybe CWI at level 9? A bit late, but better late than never! ;)

Another couple of issues with this build are that Daring Outlaw only nets you another +2d6 SA and Insightful Strike doesn't come up until 15th level (when it's probably pretty much useless) so maybe something to replace the feat and those levels?
DerekSTheRed
05-06-07, 10:19 AM Feinting is never an optimal choice since your bluff check has to beat a sense motive + bab check. I'd up your charisma and find a place for skill focus (bluff) if you are serious about feinting. Also, when you're using Corsair's Feint, they're denied their dex bonus for only your first attack not for every attack you make that round. Feinting and 2 weapon fighting don't really work well together.

A couple of other things to consider, Beguilers have a feint type of ability that might work well together. If you give up 2 weapon fighting you can consider duelist. Especially if you have a wizard level, just cast mage armor then you get your int bonus to ac (if you're not wearing armor or shield). I'd still get combat expertise though.

Derek
_metz_
05-06-07, 10:27 AM Hmm, its looking hard to pull off. Especially if you want to do it without Arcane levels (which is what I was initially after).

Its unfortunate that rogues don't get to do their thing as much in LG - less traps and 'true' dungeons, and everything is either a construct, plant or undead lol.

(Though that could just be my region lol)

Oh well.
Japangirl
05-06-07, 01:46 PM A feint build is really hard to do. I have a 15th level Invisible Blade, and the feint can come once a round but it only works on the first attack. This is painful because as a TWF, you do damage based on hitting lots of times on a flat-footed opponent. You will still need someone to flank with you for full round attacks or some other way to make your opponents flat-footed to you. I'd say it's not worth it, and if I got a rebuild I'd take it in a heartbeat because it's just such a waste of PrC levels and feats.
Lomiat
05-06-07, 02:13 PM A feint build is really hard to do. I have a 15th level Invisible Blade, and the feint can come once a round but it only works on the first attack. This is painful because as a TWF, you do damage based on hitting lots of times on a flat-footed opponent. You will still need someone to flank with you for full round attacks or some other way to make your opponents flat-footed to you. I'd say it's not worth it, and if I got a rebuild I'd take it in a heartbeat because it's just such a waste of PrC levels and feats.

Does Liliana have Staggering Strike? Staggering Strike, I would expect, would make the feint worthwhile, as it prevents much of a counter-attack.

For that matter, Staggering Strike would make the Scarlet Corsair build a solid build. Any time you can reduce the BBEG to a partial action, that's a good thing. If you go this route, I think you'd want to raise your Init as high as possible, too. First round, stagger while the BBEG is flat-footed to your sneak because you beat it in init. Second round, feint and stagger. Third round? Uh-oh! It lived to the third round!
Japangirl
05-06-07, 11:36 PM She did for awhile, but things with DR and really high fort saves made her retrain for Underfoot Combat and pick up Confound the Bigger Folk at 15. Doing 6d6+1d3+1 against things with DR 10 was creating saves in the 10-15 range, which is not going to do anything useful at APL 14. Even without DR, it wasn't high enough (avg damage, and thus save, of 23).

Also, you'd only get 1 chance to stagger with your strategy the second round, because the feint only works for the first attack. So it's Win Init, stagger (hope it rolls low). Second round, feint and hit once to stagger (hope it rolls low), then all the rest are non-sneak hits so they do very little damage and can't stagger. Third round, it didn't take much damage from you so it's probably still there and angry, though possibly still staggered.

Don't get me wrong, Staggering Strike is a good feat still. I just found that it didn't really make my feint any better and I don't think it makes the build work.
Lomiat
05-07-07, 08:34 AM I was thinking in more general terms about Staggering Strike + Scarlet Corsair. My 13 fighter-type has Staggering Strike, and the issue isn't the difficulty getting things to fail their DC 40+ Fort saves so much as it is getting the sneak.

Power Attack helps, of course.
Japangirl
05-07-07, 05:38 PM Ah yes. A Sneak Attack dip with Power Attack makes Staggering Strike much more effective than a straight sneak-attacker.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
_metz_ 05-05-07, 02:31 AM	What do you guys think of this build? Its very much still under construction... Idea is cheeky pirate who sneak attacks - like a LOT. (???) refers to feats - not sure what to take Grey Elf Str: 12 Dex: 16 Con: 13 Int: 16 Wis: 8 Cha: 10 1. Rogue1: Quick draw 2. Swashbuckler1: Weapon Finesse 3. Rogue2: (???) 4. Wizard: (Stat bump Con) 5. Swashbuckler2: 6. Rogue3: Two Weapon Fighting 7. Unseen Seer1: 8. Unseen Seer2: (Stat bump Dex) 9. Swashbuckler3: Daring Outlaw 10. Scarlet Corsair1: Improved Feint 11. Scarlet Corsair2: 12. Scarlet Corsair3: Better Improved Feint (???) (Stat bump Dex) 13. Swashbuckler 14. Swashbuckler 15. Swashbuckler (???) Its just an idea, will end up with 6d6 sneak attack, grave strike, etc Bab of +12 (I think) Two Weapon fighting, and can feint as a free action. (hence lots of sneaking) Am thinking of taking Leadership at some point so I have a first mate and can crew a ship if I get one. Was thinking of throwing one level of dread pirate in for the TWF for free, but delays the build. (and fits the character) Do you think this will work at all? I am a little unsure, seems like it blooms a little too late, SO at lower levels will operate as a locksmith, bluffer and searcher.
Nerax 05-05-07, 10:27 AM	If I am not mistaken, you need Combat Expertise for Imp Feint.
_metz_ 05-05-07, 10:35 AM	If I am not mistaken, you need Combat Expertise for Imp Feint. The following are class features of the scarlet corsair prestige class. 1st level Improved Feint: Upon joining this prestige class you gain Improved Feint as a bonus feat, even if you do not have the normal prerequisites for that feat. You can feint in combat as a move action to render your foes flat-footed and thus make sneak attacks against them. 3rd level. Corsair’s Feint (Ex): As a scarlet corsair, you are a master of dirty fighting and trickery. You can make a feint as a free action rather than as a move action (see the Improved Feint feat, page 95 of the Player’s Handbook). But once you’ve surprised your enemies with such a feint, it takes time before you’re able to fool them again. At 3rd level, you must wait 2d4 rounds before using corsair’s feint again. At 7th level it is 1d4 rounds.
Lomiat 05-05-07, 10:38 PM	The 1d4 rounds is a kicker. I got really excited the first time I saw the Scarlet Corsair class; then I read it closely. If you want free-action feints, Invisible Blade is a better PrC.
ThaiGQ 05-06-07, 06:39 AM	The 1d4 rounds is a kicker. I got really excited the first time I saw the Scarlet Corsair class; then I read it closely. If you want free-action feints, Invisible Blade is a better PrC. Yeah, I agree, but then he's limited to using daggers or dagger-like weapons (unless he doesn't mind losing out on 3d6 points worth of sneak attack) and he'd have to use 3 extra feats that aren't already in his build to qualify for it. I suppose he could do something like this: 1. Rogue1: Point Blank Shot, +1d6 SA 2. Swashbuckler1: Weapon Finesse 3. Fighter1: WF (Dagger), Combat Expertise 4. Wizard1: Scribe Scroll, Stat. bump Con 5. Rogue2: Evasion 6. Unseen Seer1: Far Shot, +2d6 SA 7. Unseen Seer2 8. Invisible Blade1: Dagger SA +1d6, Unfettered Defense, Stat. bump Dex 9. Invisible Blade2: Bleeding Wound, TWF 10. Invisible Blade3: Dagger SA +2d6, Uncanny Feint (Move Action) 11. Invisible Blade4: Feint Mastery 12. Invisible Blade5: Dagger SA +3d6, Uncanny Feint (Free Action), Daring Outlaw, Stat. bump Dex 13. Fighter2: Deadly Defense 14. Swashbuckler2 15. Swashbuckler3: Insightful Strike, ICE/ITWF (?) Not sure if this would fit your character concept (RP-wise), but the abilities from your original build are still there with maybe a few more abilities. You end up with +7d6 SA when using daggers (+8d6 if using Deadly Defense), can feint in combat as a free action (and can take 10 on your Bluff check when feinting), bonus to AC and damage from Int., can cast Golem/Grave Strike (whichever is appropriate), and can use Combat Expertise for the boosted AC if you need it since you won't be losing any attack modifiers to PA. I'm not clear on the rules about precision damage (SA and Insightful Strike) on your off-hand weapon though. If it doesn't apply, you might want to switch out the TWF feats for something else...maybe CWI at level 9? A bit late, but better late than never! ;) Another couple of issues with this build are that Daring Outlaw only nets you another +2d6 SA and Insightful Strike doesn't come up until 15th level (when it's probably pretty much useless) so maybe something to replace the feat and those levels?
DerekSTheRed 05-06-07, 10:19 AM	Feinting is never an optimal choice since your bluff check has to beat a sense motive + bab check. I'd up your charisma and find a place for skill focus (bluff) if you are serious about feinting. Also, when you're using Corsair's Feint, they're denied their dex bonus for only your first attack not for every attack you make that round. Feinting and 2 weapon fighting don't really work well together. A couple of other things to consider, Beguilers have a feint type of ability that might work well together. If you give up 2 weapon fighting you can consider duelist. Especially if you have a wizard level, just cast mage armor then you get your int bonus to ac (if you're not wearing armor or shield). I'd still get combat expertise though. Derek
_metz_ 05-06-07, 10:27 AM	Hmm, its looking hard to pull off. Especially if you want to do it without Arcane levels (which is what I was initially after). Its unfortunate that rogues don't get to do their thing as much in LG - less traps and 'true' dungeons, and everything is either a construct, plant or undead lol. (Though that could just be my region lol) Oh well.
Japangirl 05-06-07, 01:46 PM	A feint build is really hard to do. I have a 15th level Invisible Blade, and the feint can come once a round but it only works on the first attack. This is painful because as a TWF, you do damage based on hitting lots of times on a flat-footed opponent. You will still need someone to flank with you for full round attacks or some other way to make your opponents flat-footed to you. I'd say it's not worth it, and if I got a rebuild I'd take it in a heartbeat because it's just such a waste of PrC levels and feats.
Lomiat 05-06-07, 02:13 PM	A feint build is really hard to do. I have a 15th level Invisible Blade, and the feint can come once a round but it only works on the first attack. This is painful because as a TWF, you do damage based on hitting lots of times on a flat-footed opponent. You will still need someone to flank with you for full round attacks or some other way to make your opponents flat-footed to you. I'd say it's not worth it, and if I got a rebuild I'd take it in a heartbeat because it's just such a waste of PrC levels and feats. Does Liliana have Staggering Strike? Staggering Strike, I would expect, would make the feint worthwhile, as it prevents much of a counter-attack. For that matter, Staggering Strike would make the Scarlet Corsair build a solid build. Any time you can reduce the BBEG to a partial action, that's a good thing. If you go this route, I think you'd want to raise your Init as high as possible, too. First round, stagger while the BBEG is flat-footed to your sneak because you beat it in init. Second round, feint and stagger. Third round? Uh-oh! It lived to the third round!
Japangirl 05-06-07, 11:36 PM	She did for awhile, but things with DR and really high fort saves made her retrain for Underfoot Combat and pick up Confound the Bigger Folk at 15. Doing 6d6+1d3+1 against things with DR 10 was creating saves in the 10-15 range, which is not going to do anything useful at APL 14. Even without DR, it wasn't high enough (avg damage, and thus save, of 23). Also, you'd only get 1 chance to stagger with your strategy the second round, because the feint only works for the first attack. So it's Win Init, stagger (hope it rolls low). Second round, feint and hit once to stagger (hope it rolls low), then all the rest are non-sneak hits so they do very little damage and can't stagger. Third round, it didn't take much damage from you so it's probably still there and angry, though possibly still staggered. Don't get me wrong, Staggering Strike is a good feat still. I just found that it didn't really make my feint any better and I don't think it makes the build work.
Lomiat 05-07-07, 08:34 AM	I was thinking in more general terms about Staggering Strike + Scarlet Corsair. My 13 fighter-type has Staggering Strike, and the issue isn't the difficulty getting things to fail their DC 40+ Fort saves so much as it is getting the sneak. Power Attack helps, of course.
Japangirl 05-07-07, 05:38 PM	Ah yes. A Sneak Attack dip with Power Attack makes Staggering Strike much more effective than a straight sneak-attacker.