Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kelios_Lyonsmane 03-07-07, 06:34 PM	I may be just plain "loco" but what is SO great at being able to make spells like say , a classic like fireball , into a ray . I get that you remove the save for 1/2 damage but , you only affect one target . Ok you can sneak attack ( only if the targer is within 30ft bla... bla...bla ) but your much better off with Scorching ray as it is a lvl 2 spell and does more damage ( max 12d6 for 3 rays at lvl 11 and Fireball 106 at lvl 10 ) , on top of that it gives you 3 chances to crit ( ok ok also 3 chances to miss for you pessimists out there ) not to mention 3 chances to Sneak attack ( i may be wrong on that one ) . Also with the arrival of " Reserve Feats " a mage / caster can finaly do somthing when the concentration check is imposibly hight ( at lower lvls at least ) or would run out of spells after one fight ( again more of a problem at lower lvls ) . Anyway thats my :twocents: plz give me yours :D
copper_wyrmling 03-07-07, 06:38 PM	I may be just plain "loco" but what is SO great at being able to make spells like say , a classic like fireball , into a ray . I get that you remove the save for 1/2 damage but , you only affect one target . Ok you can sneak attack ( only if the targer is within 30ft bla... bla...bla ) but your much better off with Scorching ray as it does more damage ( max 12d6 for 3 rays at lvl 11 and Fireball 106 at lvl 10 ) , on top of that it gives you 3 chances to crit ( ok ok also 3 chances to miss for you pessimists out there ) not to mention 3 chances to Sneak attack ( i may be wrong on that one ) . Also with the arrival of " Reserve Feats " a mage / caster can finaly do somthing when the concentration check is imposibly hight ( at lower lvls at least ) or would run out of spells after one fight ( again more of a problem at lower lvls ) . Anyway thats my :twocents: plz give me yours :D Split Ray.
Kelios_Lyonsmane 03-07-07, 06:44 PM	Split Ray. Ok not a bad feat but ... to retake my exemple : fireball as a split ray lvl 5 , Scorching ray lvl 2 ( maximized for a lvl 5 ) . Sorry still dont see the point . and it costs you a feat .
Japangirl 03-07-07, 06:48 PM	Level 5 spell requires level 9 caster minimum. You get 8d6 damage (4d6 each) from two rays from Scorching Ray, or you get 18d6 damage (9d6 each) from a Split Ray fireball. Even a Split Ray Scorching Ray (level 4 spell) only gets 12d6 damage from three rays. A maximized Scorching Ray will do 48 points of damage. 18d6, on average, is 63 points of damage. And thus, a Split Ray fireball ray from a Spellwarp Sniper is better than a maximized Scorching Ray and it costs the same spell slot and feat slot.
Kelios_Lyonsmane 03-07-07, 06:58 PM	Level 5 spell requires level 9 caster minimum. You get 8d6 damage (4d6 each) from two rays from Scorching Ray, or you get 18d6 damage (9d6 each) from a Split Ray fireball. Even a Split Ray Scorching Ray (level 4 spell) only gets 12d6 damage from three rays. A maximized Scorching Ray will do 48 points of damage. 18d6, on average, is 63 points of damage. And thus, a Split Ray fireball ray from a Spellwarp Sniper is better than a maximized Scorching Ray and it costs the same spell slot and feat slot. At lvl 11 a Split ray scorching ray hits ( if it hits ;) ) for 16d6 and a split ray fireball hits for 20d6 . I admit its impresive but SS still has more crit ( and miss ) chances and is less expensive . I guess my main trouble with this is that you lose AoE and i'm not convinced its worth it ...
Japangirl 03-07-07, 07:12 PM	Well, you have the option. You can *either* make the fireball into a ray and shoot it at someone as a Spellwarp Sniper special thingy, *or* you can make a fireball go off in the usual area. You aren't giving up AOE power by going Spellwarp Sniper, just gaining single-target boom.
Kelios_Lyonsmane 03-07-07, 07:33 PM	Well, you have the option. You can *either* make the fireball into a ray and shoot it at someone as a Spellwarp Sniper special thingy, *or* you can make a fireball go off in the usual area. You aren't giving up AOE power by going Spellwarp Sniper, just gaining single-target boom. Good point :)
Mommy was an Orc 03-07-07, 07:52 PM	Split Ray. Except this only works on spells up to a max of 5th level. By the time you get to access 5th level spells, you're likely casting 6th+...
Jay_Ibero_911 03-07-07, 07:59 PM	Except this only works on spells up to a max of 5th level. By the time you get to access 5th level spells, you're likely casting 6th+... Most of the best damage is atainable with those 5th or lower level spells. Like split ray greater fireburst....
Mommy was an Orc 03-07-07, 08:22 PM	Most of the best damage is atainable with those 5th or lower level spells. Like split ray greater fireburst.... Which is a 7th level spell.
jstorrie 03-07-07, 08:31 PM	If you enter with something like Rogue 1 / Wiz 4 / Unseen Seer 2, you also have +2d6 sneak attack. You get Precise Shot as a bonus feat, which is very good. You get a free Sudden Empower per day. If you take Metamagic School focus, your Split is only +1. You get 4 skill points per level, enough to cross-class Search and Disable while still maintaining other skills from your Int bonus. If you've done the Unseen Seer dip, you're on track for Arcane Trickster. In short, Spellwarp Sniper is one of the best choices for a ray specialist. Perhaps not the best when compared to some other Unseen Seer builds (Scout-Unseen Seers are pretty good as well) but definitely serviceable. Consider as a rough example: Human 1 Rogue Empower Spell, Point Blank Shot 2 Evoker: Scribe Scroll 3 Evoker Metamagic School Focus 4 Evoker 5 Evoker 6 Unseen Seer: Split Ray 7 Spellwarp Sniper 8 Spellwarp Sniper 9 Spellwarp Sniper: Weapon Focus: ranged spell 10 Spellwarp Sniper 11 Spellwarp Sniper 12 Evoker: Quicken Spell, Ranged Recall 13 Arcane Trickster 14 Arcane Trickster 15 Arcane Trickster: feat As compared to a 596 Arcane Trickster, you have two more caster levels, you can Sneak Attack at 60 feet, and you do significantly more damage: in one round you could throw out a Split Empowered Ray Fireball with nearly full Sneak dice and a Quickened Ray Fireball to follow-up, for example. This is hefty blasting. Yes, you can't Ray the higher-level blasting spells, but those spell slots are often better used on utility effects, not straight damage-dealing.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-07-07, 08:36 PM	Which is a 7th level spell. Not until after it's a ray though. It's a 5th level spell when you turn it into a ray, which is what matters, then you apply the metamagic which turns it into effectively a 7th level spell. You can't apply the metamagic before you turn it into a ray, because until it is a ray it is not a valid target for split ray. Of course, only spontaneous casters can do this, because they apply metamagic when they cast. So either it works due to the timing, or it doesn't work because the base spell is not a valid target for the metamagic. Given that the spellwarp ability states that the spell is treated as a ray for all purposes, it is safe to say that it DOES make it a valid target for split ray (as long as it is applied when the spell is cast), and since the warping occurs before the application of split ray, it works just fine.
Mommy was an Orc 03-08-07, 12:26 AM	You can't apply the metamagic before you turn it into a ray, because until it is a ray it is not a valid target for split ray./QUOTE] [QUOTE=Spellwarp]You can apply metamagic feats as normal to the spell, as long as they can affect ray spells Split Ray affects ray spells, so you can apply it - you can apply split ray to fireball in any case without needing to be a spellwarp sniper - it just is a dumb thing to do.
Maesto 03-08-07, 01:50 AM	I'm unconvinced that SWS is the way to go. You're forced to drop a caster level to start with, and there just don't seem to be many warpeable spells (or at least, ones that are worth doing it to). Greater Fireburst and Fireball seem to be about it, but I will grant you that doubling damage for a +2 increase in level is better than maximising damage for a +3 increase in level, and removing the saving throw is also useful. Then again, you have to be a sorceror or other spontaneous caster to do it in the first place, and after that, you've got 7th level spells at 15th level. You seem to be stuck with warped fireballs otherwise, and the normal orb spells do just about as good.
Evanta 03-08-07, 04:54 AM	I think the PrC is more meant for those who want to incorporate trapfinding and skills into their build, while not gimping their character. It's also a way to increase your BAB a little to fire off your rays more accurately, as well as a free precise shot on the way.
solbergb 03-08-07, 09:27 AM	I think the PRC is a decent way to extend ray-focused blasters into the retirement levels. It lets them keep up with the archers till their top tier spell slots go away, and adds some versatility so the party doesn't strangle them for filling up all their slots with single target spells when they run into a pack of weak minions or a swarm. The PRC doesn't do much for you before level 9-10, when you can split ray the L3 boom spells. There isn't any area spells in the L1-2 spell list that even begins to compare with scorching ray metamagicked or even the L4 orb spells "unsplit". They all cap at too low a level. I don't think it's insanely powerful. It's to blaster what fatespinner is to the save/die crowd. It helps extend that tactic into higher levels where it would normally become somewhat ineffective, if you build around it.
Kelios_Lyonsmane 03-08-07, 01:54 PM	So if i understand the posts corectly , its a good option for a wiz to get skills and for socerers with rapid metamagic for added versatility and from what i hear from Wizard's customer service suden strike :ray stacks and is considered the same a Sneek attack/suden strike so you can get Arcane Trixter with only one rogue lvl dip . ( i belive SWS as caster lvls at every lvl , i only saw it on the D&D site ) . So great as a steping stone and ok as a PC's .
Alpha_Nerd 03-08-07, 02:00 PM	My only beef with SWS is that ie requires a sneak attack dice, so you end up having to lose 2 caster levels no matter what.
Timlagor 03-08-07, 03:53 PM	So if i understand the posts corectly , its a good option for a wiz to get skills and for socerers with rapid metamagic for added versatility and from what i hear from Wizard's customer service suden strike :ray stacks and is considered the same a Sneek attack/suden strike so you can get Arcane Trixter with only one rogue lvl dip . ( i belive SWS as caster lvls at every lvl , i only saw it on the D&D site ) . So great as a steping stone and ok as a PC's . TriCKster I'm pretty sure you need to drop a spell level getting into SSniper. I really wouldn't count on SSniper to qualify for Trickster because it is far from clear that it works as you'd like it to and WotCCS is a) notoriously unreliable (though better than they used to be) b) not an official rules source for LG. This is the sort of table variation you most want to avoid. I'm pretty sure I've seen a CS response saying it doesn't qualify as well...
Maesto 03-08-07, 04:11 PM	Rogue 1/Wiz4/Unseen Seer2/SWS5/Arcane TricksterX works however, and is perfectly legit. 4d6 sneak attack over 12 levels with 11 casting levels before hitting arcane trickster. If you just want sneak attack on your rays, go for rogue1/wiz4/US2/ATX. Can't remember if you can pull it off for only 1 US level, although the second level is tasty.
DerekSTheRed 03-08-07, 04:51 PM	I think the PrC is more meant for those who want to incorporate trapfinding and skills into their build, while not gimping their character. It's also a way to increase your BAB a little to fire off your rays more accurately, as well as a free precise shot on the way. It doesn't increase your BAB as much as it compensates you for the rogue level (which is a +0 at level 1). It's a 5 level PrC with a +3 BAB total. When you combine it with the rogue level it's a total +3 over 6 levels or roughly +1 every 2 levels just like wizard/sorcerers normally have. One other note on spell selections. A lot of area spells don't have SR but have a save for half. Other than the Orb spells, there aren't many ranged touch spells that ignore spell resistance. If you take Blast of Flame or Acid Storm (which ignore SR) and make it a ray you then avoid the save as well. A SWS doesn't have to worry about feats like Spell Penetration or Arcane Mastery or Spell Focus (unless you want Meta-Magic school focus) and can just concentrate on feats that help him deal damage like Empower Spell or Split Ray. Derek
Hariman 03-08-07, 06:34 PM	I'm unconvinced that SWS is the way to go. You're forced to drop a caster level to start with, and there just don't seem to be many warpeable spells (or at least, ones that are worth doing it to). Greater Fireburst and Fireball seem to be about it, but I will grant you that doubling damage for a +2 increase in level is better than maximising damage for a +3 increase in level, and removing the saving throw is also useful. Then again, you have to be a sorceror or other spontaneous caster to do it in the first place, and after that, you've got 7th level spells at 15th level. You seem to be stuck with warped fireballs otherwise, and the normal orb spells do just about as good. *Snerk* I've got three spells for you: Blast of Flame Arc of Lightning Vitriolic Sphere ALL are warpable, NO spell resistance, and vitriolic sphere will do it's extra damage WITHOUT a save. They're all LG legal too. And although they're conjuration, they're still great. Personally, my Spellwarp Sniper is Rogue2/Conjurer3 right now (Originally going straight for AT) He's an orb reliant character right now, but he'll be able to branch out into area effects too. With a smattering of buffing/debuffing spells. Glitterdust and Improved Invisibility especially. Has anybody else noted that it's worth it to take Improved Precise Shot/Ranged Recall with a Spellwarp Sniper? It's just so that when you miss on that rare one, you have a second chance. (My rogue/conjurer misses mostly when firing through cover or rolling a one, barring high touch attack foes.) Split ray sounds great now, but Empower spell could be just as good.
Japangirl 03-08-07, 06:36 PM	Improved Precise requires 11 BAB, which is why it isn't being included in builds. Does a Rogue/Wizard/SWS ever get to 11 BAB?
Maesto 03-08-07, 07:04 PM	Blast of Flame Yup, 10d6 for a 4th level spell. Might as well use an orb of fire - get more mileage out of it, although I guess having an AoE spell that can become a ray is also useful. Still, it's only fireball damage; you're bumping the spell level to remove SR. Arc of Lightning An orb of electricity is better than this one, with the minor caveat that you can also expend this one as an AoE spell. Vitriolic Sphere I hadn't thought of this one. 6d6 per round for three rounds isn't bad. Still, it's a fifth level spell that does 18d6 over three rounds. A 4th level spell, empowered scorching ray, does effectively 18d6 instantly. Again, you pay a spell level for the removal of SR, and you can also expend it as an AoE if you desire (although it was much better in CA than in SC). The only real use I'm seeing for SWS is versatility in spontaneous casters who have opted to give up a casting level. The one spell that I think it's worth using on is greater fireburst, in order to remove the save.
Hariman 03-08-07, 07:18 PM	I'm blind. (Dex 19 too) That frees up a feat. Dang, what's my level 6 feat going to be now? I've already got Point Blank and Precise shot, and Practiced Spellcaster. Level 9 and "10" (Spellwarp Sniper level 3) were going to be Weapon Focus: Ranged Spell and Ranged Recall. Telling Blow isn't bad, but It'll likely be level twelve before I take Improved Critical: Ranged Spell, if I do at all. Empower Spell won't really be that great till later levels. Hmmm. Consecrate spell and Split Ray?
DerekSTheRed 03-08-07, 08:35 PM	I'm blind. (Dex 19 too) That frees up a feat. Dang, what's my level 6 feat going to be now? I've already got Point Blank and Precise shot, and Practiced Spellcaster. Level 9 and "10" (Spellwarp Sniper level 3) were going to be Weapon Focus: Ranged Spell and Ranged Recall. Telling Blow isn't bad, but It'll likely be level twelve before I take Improved Critical: Ranged Spell, if I do at all. Empower Spell won't really be that great till later levels. Hmmm. Consecrate spell and Split Ray? Coordinated Shot (HB) is a feat I'm considering for my SWS. It requires access but it allows you to ignore soft cover from allies. Derek
copper_wyrmling 03-08-07, 11:02 PM	The only real use I'm seeing for SWS is versatility in spontaneous casters who have opted to give up a casting level. The one spell that I think it's worth using on is greater fireburst, in order to remove the save. It may not work on greater fireburst: you warp area spells, and Greater Fireburst has an Effect entry rather than Area. There are some NONC spells that are very nice when warped - Frost Breath, for example (from the Spell Compendium). No-save daze with a second-level spell is pretty powerful, since you can then split it and keep two enemies shut down with no save until you run out of slots (speaking from the perspective of a spontaneous caster). You would need access though, and it's sufficiently obscure that access is unlikely barring a special mission.
Maesto 03-09-07, 03:20 AM	Point about greater fireburst. Are there any Open spells that are worth it then? I'm not seeing much in favour of this PrC...
Madfox11 03-09-07, 07:08 AM	Well, if you are looking for feats Energy Substitution would be a good idea for such a build. Spell resistance or not, when all you have is fire, there are going to be many encounters were you cannot do a thing... There are btw situation where area spells that do not deal damage are worth being warped into a ray. It is especially true when dealing with spells with a massive area in a limited space or with the various cones which are much more difficult to place on a battlefield without hitting companions. These situations will be relatively rare though...
Maesto 03-09-07, 07:28 AM	Sculpt spell is useful in such occasions, and archmage abilities are fun for that too. Remember that area spells that aren't instantaneous can't be warped... which essentially means that only ones which do direct damage can be warped.
DerekSTheRed 03-09-07, 09:18 AM	I'm also considering the feats Elven Spell Lore [Blast of Flame] and Reach Spell for Touch of Idiocy. Obviously Energy Substitution is useful, but I don't know if I'd want to spend a feat on it when I can get it in a Rod. Derek