ITWF or TWP? [Archive] - Wizards Community

ITWF or TWP? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ARlife
07-20-07, 04:24 AM Okay, I need some advice, my high level ranger/rogue mutt, is getting his 6th ranger level soon. So I have a conundrum. Which do y'all think is better, Improved Two Weapon Fighting or Two Weapon Pounce? Two Weapon Pounce is nice in that first round of combat so I can attacks with sneak damage, but it requires me to charge which usually ends with me in a bad place,But the attack bonus for the attack I gain from ITWF is sorta low, so it may not hit even when I get a full attack. So whats the consensus?
_metz_
07-20-07, 04:47 AM Depends if your damage is static or not.

How many dice of sneak attack?
UMiskatonic
07-20-07, 10:43 AM I'd take ITWF.

1) It's going to get better over time. With bardsong, or prayer, or higher terrain, it will be easier to hit. As you get a better magic weapon, and better bab, it will get easier still.

2) It's useful all of the time. Seriously, will there be a fight in which you can't full attack at least once?

3) Charge lanes are hard to line up. This requires good terrain, and cooperative party members. Point against TWP

4) Charging exposes you to massive enemy counter attack, which you aren't built to survive. You don't have the AC or HP for it. Point against TWP.

5) Receiving a charge is a huge advantage. If they charge you, you'll trade their charge for your full attack (four attacks). That's 1:4, and you are still close to your cleric and fighter, for healing and flanking.

If you charge them, you'll get two attacks (TWP), and receive two-three in return (claw,claw,bite or axe,axe). That's 2:3, or 2:2.
ARlife
07-20-07, 11:17 AM Well, right now, I get 3d6 sneak attack with each hit, so not too bad, but not great either. My static damage is ok, but not great. You do make some very good points Umiskatonic. I prefer to not eat full attacks when I don't have to, and the only times when I seem to be in danger is when I charge or run head first into combat. I just figured that since pounce is such a great ability for any melee type, that TWP would be the next best thing, but I'm not so sure anymore. Thanks people, I appreciate the advice. If anyone wants to chime in more help, I'd still find it very helpful.
JamesMaissen
07-20-07, 12:45 PM I prefer to not eat full attacks when I don't have to, and the only times when I seem to be in danger is when I charge or run head first into combat. I just figured that since pounce is such a great ability for any melee type, that TWP would be the next best thing, but I'm not so sure anymore. Thanks people, I appreciate the advice. If anyone wants to chime in more help, I'd still find it very helpful.

First and foremost you should PLAN your character out beyond just the here and the now. With retraining and other options you are better off than you would otherwise be, but it's still a good thing for you to do.

Now towards the specific: aren't you opening yourself up for a full attack in return in either case? If you are full attacking then you've had to close (or some thing's come to you) in one way or another. After low and low-mid levels the 2 points to AC is less likely to make much difference.

Now that said, playing a d6 base hp rogue like a d12 base hp barbarian has a fundamental flaw to it. When considering a melee rogue you need to realize that a 14 CON rogue is like a 10 CON fighter and act accordingly.

That is not to say that getting multiple attacks on a charge is not for you. It's just that charging head first into a group of bad guys is not the plan of action you should normally take upon yourself.

-James
ARlife
07-20-07, 12:56 PM Well I sorta did plan out my character. Problem is, I changed my mind. My original plan was to get TWP and Two Weapon Rend(as my 12th level feat), but I looked at it and decided that maybe there was a better plan. Right now, it looks like ITWP as my ranger combat style and then just take deadly defense as my 12 level feat should be good. And don't worry, I realize that having a D6 for Hit Dice means that I should not be charging head first into battle. I typically let them come to me and wait for buffs and the like. The only reason I would consider pounce is for the battles where the enemies are spread out(pouncing into a flank seemed really cool).
awroe
07-20-07, 05:20 PM How frequently can you charge *and* get sneak attack? Unless you beat their initiative and are within charging distance with nothing in the way, you're unlikely to get the sneak in - charging into a flanking position is very unlikely.

How often will you get full attacks? I suspect more frequently than charges - so I would put ITWF in first.

Deadly Defense is very nice if you are hitting a lot and have Combat Expertise - but make sure the -2 to hit doesn't cause you to miss with the iteratives and loose an entire attacks worth of damage. I feel it's better than power attack in that respect - it's a free bonus when Combat Expertising for AC and aren't expecting to hit too much anyway.
Sieylianna
07-20-07, 06:07 PM I would go with ITWF. TWP is likely to be a death trap at higher APL's.

Ed
JamesMaissen
07-20-07, 09:01 PM How frequently can you charge *and* get sneak attack? Unless you beat their initiative and are within charging distance with nothing in the way, you're unlikely to get the sneak in - charging into a flanking position is very unlikely.

Well one way would be to get support and get a greater invisibility (or pick on whichever opponents have been blinded by a glitterdust, etc) to always get sneak attacks.

Another would be to have a fellow party member delay right before your init and then position him/herself properly for you.

It's not a done deal, but with team tactics (from you and your party members) it is very doable.

-James
awroe
07-21-07, 03:40 AM Well one way would be to get support and get a greater invisibility (or pick on whichever opponents have been blinded by a glitterdust, etc) to always get sneak attacks.

Another would be to have a fellow party member delay right before your init and then position him/herself properly for you.

It's not a done deal, but with team tactics (from you and your party members) it is very doable.

-James

It can be done, but in general I think you'd be better getting in better full attacks against these opponents rather than charging. Unless you plan on bouncing between targets (and you'd want Scout rather than Rogue for this), after one charge, you're likely to be full attacking.

I suppose the question is - do you expect to kill the opponent on your charge. If not, likely they'll be there the next round for full-attacking, and both feats would give you about the same benefit.

GD/Invis works. If you're waiting for another party member to position properly then you're probably stopping them from charging, and quite possibly have the enemy right next to you anyway due to the delay.

If you were going the Shocktrooper or mounted route where you charge all the time TWP might be better, but I suspect you'd prefer to tumble instead of charge much of the time (missing the AoOs from the large creatures).
Sieylianna
07-21-07, 11:09 AM Well one way would be to get support and get a greater invisibility (or pick on whichever opponents have been blinded by a glitterdust, etc) to always get sneak attacks.

But if you have the support of the party to help with sneak attack, you're better off not charging (hosing your AC) and just tumble in, take your single attack and then get a full attack with two weapons the next round.

Ed
JamesMaissen
07-21-07, 11:38 AM But if you have the support of the party to help with sneak attack, you're better off not charging (hosing your AC) and just tumble in, take your single attack and then get a full attack with two weapons the next round.

Ed

I guess I find that by the time full attacks matter enough that ITWF is worthwhile on a BAB hit class that closing is more of an issue than full attacks. Of course support in this manor works as well.

-James

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ARlife 07-20-07, 04:24 AM	Okay, I need some advice, my high level ranger/rogue mutt, is getting his 6th ranger level soon. So I have a conundrum. Which do y'all think is better, Improved Two Weapon Fighting or Two Weapon Pounce? Two Weapon Pounce is nice in that first round of combat so I can attacks with sneak damage, but it requires me to charge which usually ends with me in a bad place,But the attack bonus for the attack I gain from ITWF is sorta low, so it may not hit even when I get a full attack. So whats the consensus?
_metz_ 07-20-07, 04:47 AM	Depends if your damage is static or not. How many dice of sneak attack?
UMiskatonic 07-20-07, 10:43 AM	I'd take ITWF. 1) It's going to get better over time. With bardsong, or prayer, or higher terrain, it will be easier to hit. As you get a better magic weapon, and better bab, it will get easier still. 2) It's useful all of the time. Seriously, will there be a fight in which you can't full attack at least once? 3) Charge lanes are hard to line up. This requires good terrain, and cooperative party members. Point against TWP 4) Charging exposes you to massive enemy counter attack, which you aren't built to survive. You don't have the AC or HP for it. Point against TWP. 5) Receiving a charge is a huge advantage. If they charge you, you'll trade their charge for your full attack (four attacks). That's 1:4, and you are still close to your cleric and fighter, for healing and flanking. If you charge them, you'll get two attacks (TWP), and receive two-three in return (claw,claw,bite or axe,axe). That's 2:3, or 2:2.
ARlife 07-20-07, 11:17 AM	Well, right now, I get 3d6 sneak attack with each hit, so not too bad, but not great either. My static damage is ok, but not great. You do make some very good points Umiskatonic. I prefer to not eat full attacks when I don't have to, and the only times when I seem to be in danger is when I charge or run head first into combat. I just figured that since pounce is such a great ability for any melee type, that TWP would be the next best thing, but I'm not so sure anymore. Thanks people, I appreciate the advice. If anyone wants to chime in more help, I'd still find it very helpful.
JamesMaissen 07-20-07, 12:45 PM	I prefer to not eat full attacks when I don't have to, and the only times when I seem to be in danger is when I charge or run head first into combat. I just figured that since pounce is such a great ability for any melee type, that TWP would be the next best thing, but I'm not so sure anymore. Thanks people, I appreciate the advice. If anyone wants to chime in more help, I'd still find it very helpful. First and foremost you should PLAN your character out beyond just the here and the now. With retraining and other options you are better off than you would otherwise be, but it's still a good thing for you to do. Now towards the specific: aren't you opening yourself up for a full attack in return in either case? If you are full attacking then you've had to close (or some thing's come to you) in one way or another. After low and low-mid levels the 2 points to AC is less likely to make much difference. Now that said, playing a d6 base hp rogue like a d12 base hp barbarian has a fundamental flaw to it. When considering a melee rogue you need to realize that a 14 CON rogue is like a 10 CON fighter and act accordingly. That is not to say that getting multiple attacks on a charge is not for you. It's just that charging head first into a group of bad guys is not the plan of action you should normally take upon yourself. -James
ARlife 07-20-07, 12:56 PM	Well I sorta did plan out my character. Problem is, I changed my mind. My original plan was to get TWP and Two Weapon Rend(as my 12th level feat), but I looked at it and decided that maybe there was a better plan. Right now, it looks like ITWP as my ranger combat style and then just take deadly defense as my 12 level feat should be good. And don't worry, I realize that having a D6 for Hit Dice means that I should not be charging head first into battle. I typically let them come to me and wait for buffs and the like. The only reason I would consider pounce is for the battles where the enemies are spread out(pouncing into a flank seemed really cool).
awroe 07-20-07, 05:20 PM	How frequently can you charge and get sneak attack? Unless you beat their initiative and are within charging distance with nothing in the way, you're unlikely to get the sneak in - charging into a flanking position is very unlikely. How often will you get full attacks? I suspect more frequently than charges - so I would put ITWF in first. Deadly Defense is very nice if you are hitting a lot and have Combat Expertise - but make sure the -2 to hit doesn't cause you to miss with the iteratives and loose an entire attacks worth of damage. I feel it's better than power attack in that respect - it's a free bonus when Combat Expertising for AC and aren't expecting to hit too much anyway.
Sieylianna 07-20-07, 06:07 PM	I would go with ITWF. TWP is likely to be a death trap at higher APL's. Ed
JamesMaissen 07-20-07, 09:01 PM	How frequently can you charge and get sneak attack? Unless you beat their initiative and are within charging distance with nothing in the way, you're unlikely to get the sneak in - charging into a flanking position is very unlikely. Well one way would be to get support and get a greater invisibility (or pick on whichever opponents have been blinded by a glitterdust, etc) to always get sneak attacks. Another would be to have a fellow party member delay right before your init and then position him/herself properly for you. It's not a done deal, but with team tactics (from you and your party members) it is very doable. -James
awroe 07-21-07, 03:40 AM	Well one way would be to get support and get a greater invisibility (or pick on whichever opponents have been blinded by a glitterdust, etc) to always get sneak attacks. Another would be to have a fellow party member delay right before your init and then position him/herself properly for you. It's not a done deal, but with team tactics (from you and your party members) it is very doable. -James It can be done, but in general I think you'd be better getting in better full attacks against these opponents rather than charging. Unless you plan on bouncing between targets (and you'd want Scout rather than Rogue for this), after one charge, you're likely to be full attacking. I suppose the question is - do you expect to kill the opponent on your charge. If not, likely they'll be there the next round for full-attacking, and both feats would give you about the same benefit. GD/Invis works. If you're waiting for another party member to position properly then you're probably stopping them from charging, and quite possibly have the enemy right next to you anyway due to the delay. If you were going the Shocktrooper or mounted route where you charge all the time TWP might be better, but I suspect you'd prefer to tumble instead of charge much of the time (missing the AoOs from the large creatures).
Sieylianna 07-21-07, 11:09 AM	Well one way would be to get support and get a greater invisibility (or pick on whichever opponents have been blinded by a glitterdust, etc) to always get sneak attacks. But if you have the support of the party to help with sneak attack, you're better off not charging (hosing your AC) and just tumble in, take your single attack and then get a full attack with two weapons the next round. Ed
JamesMaissen 07-21-07, 11:38 AM	But if you have the support of the party to help with sneak attack, you're better off not charging (hosing your AC) and just tumble in, take your single attack and then get a full attack with two weapons the next round. Ed I guess I find that by the time full attacks matter enough that ITWF is worthwhile on a BAB hit class that closing is more of an issue than full attacks. Of course support in this manor works as well. -James