Post/Author/DateTime	Post
praetorgradivus 10-15-07, 03:29 AM	If I am a halfelven (or elven)favored soul of Kelanen with the Deiy's Favored Weapon (Greatsword) and Weapon Specialization(Greatsword) can I apply it to the Elven Courtblade if I pick up Improved Weapon Familiarity. I believe if I took exotic weapon (courtblade) the answer would be no as the favored weapon of Kelanen must be a sword(m). However, Improved Weapon Familiarity says you can treat all weapons associated with your race as martial rather than exotic (and halfelves are elves for this purpose). BTW, Courtblade entry states that characers who are proficient with the elven courtblade treat it as a greatsword for purpose of any of the following feats: Greater Weapon focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization.
_metz_ 10-15-07, 04:50 AM	I believe if I took exotic weapon (courtblade) the answer would be no as the favored weapon of Kelanen must be a sword(m). However, Improved Weapon Familiarity says you can treat all weapons associated with your race as martial rather than exotic (and halfelves are elves for this purpose). BTW, Courtblade entry states that characers who are proficient with the elven courtblade treat it as a greatsword for purpose of any of the following feats: Greater Weapon focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization. You have answered your own question. All weapons for your race are treated as a martial weapon. That doesn't make them a martial weapon. Moreover, The courtblade can be treated as a greatsword for the purposes of feats. NOT for the purposes of what kind of weapon it is. The courtblade is an exotic weapon, so not allowed by Kelanen. What your race uses it as doesn't change what it is. The exception applies to Martial two handed weapons that are also exotic one handers, like the dwarven waraxe and the bastard sword. Most agree that if you use the weapon one handed you lose any 'free' weapon focus you may have if its contingent on the martial use of the weapon. (e.g: Bastard sword) Its kind of important with Kelenan to make the distinction as you pretty much have continual weapon focus in your swords as LONG as you are using a martial one. (Doesn't apply to just one)
Reneshat 10-15-07, 06:00 AM	Elven Courtblade applies the effects of greatsword feats. Favored Soul of Kelanen gave you greatsword feats. It seems pretty straight forward to me, and I would completely disagree with Metz on this. Being a Favored Soul meant that you got Weapon Focus (Greatsword) and Weapon Specialization (Greatsword) from the class. Elven Courtblade applies these feats, regardless of where you got them. The entry says you treat it as a greatsword, not that you treat it as a greatsword, unless you feats came from Favored Soul. I think you were needlessly complicating the issue by making mention of what constitutes Kelanen's favored weapon before mentioning the issue at hand. The issue is the feats you have, and the effect those feats have on the weapon at hand. P.S. I think it's important to note you would not be proficient with the courtblade unless you had martial weapon proficiency from another source. You would have weapon focus and weapon specialization but no proficiency. Rich Baker loves him some rabid dogs.
_metz_ 10-15-07, 07:17 AM	It COUNTS as a greatsword if you have the feat weapon focus. You only get the feat weapon focus if you are wielding a martial weapon. Therein lies the problem. Its not an issue aside from that. Kelanen DOES NOT GIVE YOU WEAPON FOCUS GREAT SWORD. Lets make that clear. He gives you: "Weapon Focus of whatever martial sword you are holding" That is where the issue lies. As a favoured soul of Kelanen you are therefore proficient in ANY martial sword, and at high levels have weapon spec and focus in any martial sword. If you aren't using a martial sword you lose it. I don't see how it can be any less clear. Just because the Court blade can function as a greatsword for existing feats doesn't make it one to QUALIFY for those feats from the deity. If you actually paid for those feats than sure, its fine, as long as you were proficient with the weapon. The issue is those feats are contingent on you using a martial weapon. Which the courtblade is not. If you were using a courtblade you wouldn't have the relevant feats given to you. If you already had the feats it would be fine, but they change with each sword you wield (yay Kelanen)
Reneshat 10-15-07, 07:55 AM	No, the class Favored Soul gives you the feat Weapon Focus with the favored weapon. Since Kelanen has multiple weapons, you choose one. You then have that feat. Read the class. It doesn't give you the equivalent of weapon focus with the Deities favored weapons, but rather the feat itself which applies to a singular weapon, in this case greatsword. If you have further doubt on this, then why does it allow you to replace the feat with something else if you already have weapon focus or weapon specialization with the specific weapon at hand? He chose greatsword as the weapon in which to get the feats. He now has weapon focus: greatsword. Yes he got it from a class because Kelanen has greatsword as a possible favored weapon, however it is still weapon focus greatsword. He could not use that feat to get +1 to attack with longswords, even though those would be another possible choice for a favored soul of Kelanen. When he got the feat, he chose greatsword. Now that is the feat he has.
_metz_ 10-15-07, 08:44 AM	No, the class Favored Soul gives you the feat Weapon Focus with the favored weapon. Since Kelanen has multiple weapons, you choose one. You then have that feat. Read the class. It doesn't give you the equivalent of weapon focus with the Deities favored weapons, but rather the feat itself which applies to a singular weapon, in this case greatsword. If you have further doubt on this, then why does it allow you to replace the feat with something else if you already have weapon focus or weapon specialization with the specific weapon at hand? He chose greatsword as the weapon in which to get the feats. He now has weapon focus: greatsword. Yes he got it from a class because Kelanen has greatsword as a possible favored weapon, however it is still weapon focus greatsword. He could not use that feat to get +1 to attack with longswords, even though those would be another possible choice for a favored soul of Kelanen. When he got the feat, he chose greatsword. Now that is the feat he has. That would be fine if Kelanen's Favoured Weapon was the Greatsword. But its more than the Greatsword. It doesn't seem clear that you pick one at all. Kelanen is an exception to the standard deities and his weapon focus is contingent on using the appropriate weapons. Like a cleric you don't receive the feat that is static, you get a contingent one. And you cannot choose weapon Focus greatsword, you just count as having it. You have: Weapon Focus "Any Martial Sword" THATS THE FEAT YOU HAVE. Where does it say with Kelanen you choose one? don't quote rules unless you have a precedent or a source, which you do not. It is both the benefit and Downside to Kelanen. Strict rules on what swords you can use, but all are considered favoured... This is perfectly clear to me, and is how I have seen it interpreted on these boards back when people actively paid attention to them ;) I know in Australia you wouldn't get away with the courtblade trick, but It may be allowed elsewhere. Expect massive Table Variation, and if the DM actually knows much on Kelanen, don't expect it to work with a divine caster who got the feat for free.
Timlagor 10-15-07, 10:36 AM	Incidentally Bastard Swords are not at any time Martial weapons (much as the Deities document would have us believe otherwise)
Iswald 10-15-07, 10:52 AM	That would be fine if Kelanen's Favoured Weapon was the Greatsword. But its more than the Greatsword. It doesn't seem clear that you pick one at all. Kelanen is an exception to the standard deities and his weapon focus is contingent on using the appropriate weapons. Like a cleric you don't receive the feat that is static, you get a contingent one. And you cannot choose weapon Focus greatsword, you just count as having it. You have: Weapon Focus "Any Martial Sword" THATS THE FEAT YOU HAVE. Where does it say with Kelanen you choose one? don't quote rules unless you have a precedent or a source, which you do not. It is both the benefit and Downside to Kelanen. Strict rules on what swords you can use, but all are considered favoured... This is perfectly clear to me, and is how I have seen it interpreted on these boards back when people actively paid attention to them ;) I know in Australia you wouldn't get away with the courtblade trick, but It may be allowed elsewhere. Expect massive Table Variation, and if the DM actually knows much on Kelanen, don't expect it to work with a divine caster who got the feat for free. You have to pick a weapon. Weapon focus applies only to a single type of weapon unless you take it multiple times. Are you going to suggest that you gain a separate weapon focus feat for each martial sword? If you select greatsword as your weapon (from favored soul), then you gain the appropriate feats. If you are wielding a courtblade, then your feats will apply since it is treated as a greatsword. It doesn't matter that a courtblade is exotic as long as you are proficient.
_metz_ 10-15-07, 11:06 AM	Incidentally Bastard Swords are not at any time Martial weapons (much as the Deities document would have us believe otherwise) Exactly, another good point. Just because it can be used as a martial weapon doesn't make it one. Where exactly does the weapon focus for Kelanen state you have to pick a weapon btw? Where are you sourcing that from? You get weapon focus with the 'deity's favoured weapon' That is: "Any martial sword" When selecting weapon focus you have to choose, yes thats fine, but this isn't a selection, but a bonus feat that is contingent on what weapon you are actually using. (As in whether it fits the criteria) You don't get a SEPARATE feat. You get: Weapon Focus: All Martial Swords If you are not wielding a martial sword than you don't qualify as using a martial weapon and so don't receive the feat - ergo it cannot apply. Courtblade is fine if you selected the feats yourself, as they don't go away if you are using a different weapon. I would rule that an Elven courtblade is NOT a martial weapon, despite the fact that it acts as a greatsword, and as such you don't qualify for the feat. Again I reiterate, you don't get weapon focus greatsword. You get weapon focus in the deities favoured weapon: any martial sword. The original poster already recognised this, and I would suggest to them to steer clear of table variation, as there are others who share my view, and it could backfire on you, even if others do not. There is no clear ruling on it, as Kelanen is a funky exception to the usual favoured weapon rulings...
RtrnofdMax 10-15-07, 12:59 PM	I hate to agree with _metz_ since he usually comes across as a cocky aussie jerk, but he's half right. Upon reading the Deities document, it specifically calls out two examples of elven exotic weapons, the thinblade and the quickblade for use by divine spellcasters. Because his favored weapons are martial blades, you would not get proficiency in the Courtblade by way of being a Favored Soul or being a cleric with the War domain, but, if you choose a sword whose focus and specialization works equivalently with an exotic sword (greatsword->courtblade), you can use those feats with the exotic sword. If you want to use a courtblade, you have to buy proficiency through exotic weapon proficiency. You can't use improved weapon familiarity because you don't have martial proficiency (all), like a fighter, you only have martial proficiency in the one weapon you chose. Now, if you choose a greatsword, you can apply it's feats to the Courtblade and end up with the same effect, but you have to burn a proficiency feat. If you wanted to take a level of fighter, you could use improved weapon familiarity, but you still need to spend a feat to use that weapon. Now, blame it on WotC for not making individual focus and specialization feats for these exotic weapons. It is from this, that the confusion arises.
JamesMaissen 10-15-07, 02:03 PM	don't quote rules unless you have a precedent or a source, which you do not. Page 2 of the deity's document under 'general notes' the paragraph starting with 'favored weapon' would be the source that you wish for this. Towards the original poster, from Favored Soul you could have Weapon Proficiency: Great Sword and then later Weapon Focus: Great Sword (and at 12th Weapon Specialization: Great Sword). If you take a feat giving you proficiency in the Courtblade then your feats that apply to the Great Sword would apply when using the Courtblade, as desired. -James
copperwyrmling 10-15-07, 02:22 PM	Exactly, another good point. Just because it can be used as a martial weapon doesn't make it one. Where exactly does the weapon focus for Kelanen state you have to pick a weapon btw? Where are you sourcing that from? You get weapon focus with the 'deity's favoured weapon' That is: "Any martial sword" When selecting weapon focus you have to choose, yes thats fine, but this isn't a selection, but a bonus feat that is contingent on what weapon you are actually using. (As in whether it fits the criteria) You get: Weapon Focus: All Martial Swords If you are not wielding a martial sword than you don't qualify as using a martial weapon and so don't receive the feat - ergo it cannot apply. I'm 99% sure I've seen a clarification in an official LG source (probably a Dispel Confusion or the LG Q&A thread) that you have to pick a specific sword type - you don't get free weapon focus with any martial sword you pick up. I don't have the time right now to go looking for it though. I have no idea where you're getting the idea that your proficiencies and bonus feats from Kelanen go away when you're not wielding the weapon. That would mean that people who took a level in cleric of Kelanen and the War domain, and then took pious templar levels, would lose all their PrC abilities when they didn't have a weapon in hand. There is nothing that I can see to suggest this. I think the OP's plan is fine - being a favored soul of Kelanen grants Weapon Focus + Weapon Spec (Greatsword) if he so chooses, he can then apply those feats to the courtblade (if he spends the feats to be proficient with it). EDIT: As James posted, the Deities' Document says: "If the entry indicates any of a certain type of weapon, all weapons that meet that description are considered the favored weapons of the deity, and any one of them can be selected with regard to spells, feats, prestige classes etc that are based on a favored weapon". I still think I've seen an explicit clarification / restatement of this rule for Kelanen elsewhere, though.
Sieylianna 10-15-07, 05:02 PM	A very similar question was asked and the official response was No. Try searching through the LG questions for more info. Ed
jstorrie 10-15-07, 08:36 PM	The op's plan is fine. There will be no effective difference between Exotic Weapon Proficiency and Improved Weapon Familiarity, though, as Favoured Souls only have martial weapon proficiency in the favoured weapon they select (which will have to be greatsword, in this case.) Metz, you may want to re-read the relevant parts of Complete Divine and LG Deities - are you thinking that a Favoured Soul of a deity with multiple favoured weapons gets proficiency/Focus/Specialization in all of them? Because she has to pick one, she doesn't getting floating feats in all of them. OP: Don't forget to pick up Melee Weapon Mastery at 12!
Reneshat 10-15-07, 11:34 PM	You get: Weapon Focus: All Martial Swords This feat does not exist. Every time the Wizards has the effect of what this feat would be, they go out of their way to call it something else. I'll give you an example. In Races of Stone the Dwarven Fighter Substitution level 1 gives what you would say is simple Weapon Focus: All Axes. However, this feat does not exist, nor can it exist. Instead they get an ability called Axe Focus. It gives +1 to hit with axes. It also has this important little bit in there. This bonus does not stack with Weapon Focus, but it is treated as the equivalent of Weapon Focus for qualifying for feats, prestige classes, and anything else that requires a feat. Obviously what you think Kelanen would get with swords is clearly defined as something just like, but not Weapon Focus. Assuming that I could be wrong with this, I searched through the most recent LGCS, the deities document, and I even took another look at the wording for both the War domain and Favored Soul. There is no exemption to Weapon Focus rules given for Kelanen, neither in War or Favored Soul in either document, though it does explain in depth what is allowed and not allowed to be used by his divine casters (so obviously they didn't just not think to cover it.) Don't get me wrong, I think it would be just fine for it to operate the way you think it should, it's just not how it operates in the RAW. It's the same reason you have to choose between light mace or heavy mace for Weapon Focus with a deity that has mace as their favored weapon. It's simply how the feat works. The class gives you the feat, not a contingent feat-like ability like you suggested it was. That much the class makes quite clear. P.S. There is my precedent, and there is my source. Where's yours?
_metz_ 10-15-07, 11:41 PM	The op's plan is fine. There will be no effective difference between Exotic Weapon Proficiency and Improved Weapon Familiarity, though, as Favoured Souls only have martial weapon proficiency in the favoured weapon they select (which will have to be greatsword, in this case.) Metz, you may want to re-read the relevant parts of Complete Divine and LG Deities - are you thinking that a Favoured Soul of a deity with multiple favoured weapons gets proficiency/Focus/Specialization in all of them? Because she has to pick one, she doesn't getting floating feats in all of them. OP: Don't forget to pick up Melee Weapon Mastery at 12! I was just saying Improved Weapon Familiarity won't work cos as a Favoured soul he doesn't have martial weapon proficiency. It would work fine if he spent the Exotic weapon proficiency feat to make it work. Than the feats could apply. Kelanen frankly has too many issues with the favoured weapon, and there will be table variance on it. I have seen several rulings (at least at triad level) that you don't get the use of weapon focus when not using the martial weapon, I was just making it clear to the OP that this sort of variance exists. I hate to agree with _metz_ since he usually comes across as a cocky aussie jerk, but he's half right. I don't know you, and haven't seen you around the forums much, so am happy to not rise to the occasion. I just don't tolerate people who either: a) Can tell what they are doing is wrong and try to munch kin it anyways b) Don't read the LGCS "Mommy why can't I play a Duskblade?" c) Don't take into account roleplaying with their characters and view them as numbers for dice rolling. Just because I said Ordained Champion will never be allowed, and said no point in making a build, doesn't mean I am cocky. As I said before, I want to play a Warlock Daggerspell mage. Or a Doppelganger Mindspy. I recognise it is closed in LG, or will be, and as such don't insist on build help for a never going to be allowed class. If you think I am a cocky jerk by pointing out it will never be allowed (and so did several others) than thats ok. I am happy to be a Jerk if it means I am the one to tell people: "No pounce at 1st level, No leap attack, no frenzied Berserker, etc" No point in playing a broken game. If I offended you in my posting back than so be it, but I stand by what I said. I only reacted to your 'I don't care if it will never get into LG remark'.
_metz_ 10-15-07, 11:46 PM	This feat does not exist. Every time the Wizards has the effect of what this feat would be, they go out of their way to call it something else. I'll give you an example. In Races of Stone the Dwarven Fighter Substitution level 1 gives what you would say is simple Weapon Focus: All Axes. However, this feat does not exist, nor can it exist. Instead they get an ability called Axe Focus. It gives +1 to hit with axes. It also has this important little bit in there. This bonus does not stack with Weapon Focus, but it is treated as the equivalent of Weapon Focus for qualifying for feats, prestige classes, and anything else that requires a feat. Obviously what you think Kelanen would get with swords is clearly defined as something just like, but not Weapon Focus. Assuming that I could be wrong with this, I searched through the most recent LGCS, the deities document, and I even took another look at the wording for both the War domain and Favored Soul. There is no exemption to Weapon Focus rules given for Kelanen, neither in War or Favored Soul in either document, though it does explain in depth what is allowed and not allowed to be used by his divine casters (so obviously they didn't just not think to cover it.) Don't get me wrong, I think it would be just fine for it to operate the way you think it should, it's just not how it operates in the RAW. It's the same reason you have to choose between light mace or heavy mace for Weapon Focus with a deity that has mace as their favored weapon. It's simply how the feat works. The class gives you the feat, not a contingent feat-like ability like you suggested it was. That much the class makes quite clear. P.S. There is my precedent, and there is my source. Where's yours? Exactly, your precedent that there is a specific weapon chosen because the weapon is all s3words. I maintain that by RAW - straight from the deities document, it says all swords. Hence it is something like Axe focus. ITs an old document and badly written in some places/ That is my point. It is NOT a piece of the core rules, and it is an exception to the core rules. As such it would indicate that the Deities favoured weapon bonus would apply to all martial swords. The downside is you can ONLY USE swords. (If playing a Divine caster properly) The war domain gives weapon focus in the favoured weapon. It never says either in the deities document OR the PHB that if there is more than one weapon you pick one. It does in the normal feat option, but its clear that it is an exception as its contingent on what the god wants - there is NEVER any choice involved, you just get weapon focus in the deities weapon. No choice- therefore how can we pick greatsword? You would *have* weapon focus greatsword, but technically you are not using the martial sword of kelanen.
RtrnofdMax 10-15-07, 11:58 PM	I don't know you, and haven't seen you around the forums much, so am happy to not rise to the occasion. Quite frankly, you have risen to the occasion by seeking to justify your actions rather than analyzing them and changing yourself for the better. First post I ever had, you were on me simply because I wanted an Ordained Champion. I hadn't even posted before and I put in a caveat asking people not to flame me for wanting this (too)powerful class, but that still didn't stop you from flaming me. As for the LGCS, it's NONC as of the last version so I'm not an idiot who didn't read it. You're just a petty person who hides behind a screen and a bad attitude. Just let everyone game the way they want to and let the DMs sort it out. My apologies to the OP. I hope my previous post was more helpful than this one.
_metz_ 10-16-07, 12:08 AM	Quite frankly, you have risen to the occasion by seeking to justify your actions rather than analyzing them and changing yourself for the better. First post I ever had, you were on me simply because I wanted an Ordained Champion. I hadn't even posted before and I put in a caveat asking people not to flame me for wanting this (too)powerful class, but that still didn't stop you from flaming me. As for the LGCS, it's NONC as of the last version so I'm not an idiot who didn't read it. You're just a petty person who hides behind a screen and a bad attitude. Just let everyone game the way they want to and let the DMs sort it out. My apologies to the OP. I hope my previous post was more helpful than this one. I didn't flame you. My build advice was: don't do it cos it will be banned. You yourself even recognised it would be banned, so the fact you asked for it on the LG boards seemed pointless. Asking people to not tell you this was just denial. Ofc they will tell you that - its the LG boards, if something isn't allowed, they will inform you. If you know its not going to be allowed, than you are posting on the wrong board. You yourself recognised this, yet you posted what you wanted to anyways, than got angry. If you want to be petty and call me a jerk over it than so be it. If you and I both recognised it was going to be closed, why did you post it to the LG forums, and then get annoyed when people told you that it wasn't going to be much use? Lets not forget I wasn't the only one to point that out.
MwaO 10-16-07, 12:12 AM	It never says either in the deities document OR the PHB that if there is more than one weapon you pick one. It does in the normal feat option, but its clear that it is an exception as its contingent on what the god wants - there is NEVER any choice involved, you just get weapon focus in the deities weapon. "If the entry indicates any of a certain type of weapon, all weapons...are considered the favored weapons...and any one of them can be selected with regards to spells, feats, prestige classes, etc. that are based on a favored weapon." I think it is quite clear that you select one of the favored weapons of a deity and you don't get all of them.
_metz_ 10-16-07, 12:30 AM	"If the entry indicates any of a certain type of weapon, all weapons...are considered the favored weapons...and any one of them can be selected with regards to spells, feats, prestige classes, etc. that are based on a favored weapon." I think it is quite clear that you select one of the favored weapons of a deity and you don't get all of them. OK well in that case so be it. I will concede that You may have to choose one. In which case you could expend a feat and Use the Courtblade as your weapon as a Kelanen worshiper. How you dealt with the roleplaying issue of not using the favoured weapon yet receiving a war domain style power is up to you. Roleplaying restrictions don't really mean much in LG anyways... Your cleric/favoured soul may as well use a Greataxe for all it matters... Legally its allowed. It still seems like a fudge to me though. I would suggest bringing this arguement to the table with you in case your DM needs convincing. Some may be skeptical, but on this basis I as a DM would allow it, and I seem to have been the most opposed to it around here (At least atm!)
Reneshat 10-16-07, 01:43 AM	Never mind, noticed someone beat me to it. So to sum up, if you chose greatsword as your sword of choice, you can apply the feats, but you would have to use Exotic Weapon Proficiency, rather than Improved Racial Proficiency as the feat to get proficiency with Courtblade. Flavor issues shouldn't be a problem seeing how it is fully explained in the section about Kelanen in the Deities document that the Elven swords are fine to use, you just don't get proficiency with them.
Sieylianna 10-16-07, 06:37 AM	So to sum up, if you chose greatsword as your sword of choice, you can apply the feats, but you would have to use Exotic Weapon Proficiency, rather than Improved Racial Proficiency as the feat to get proficiency with Courtblade. Flavor issues shouldn't be a problem seeing how it is fully explained in the section about Kelanen in the Deities document that the Elven swords are fine to use, you just don't get proficiency with them. Expect table variation. It's not something that I would build a character around. Ed
Reneshat 10-16-07, 07:06 AM	Expect table variation. It's not something that I would build a character around. Ed All you would need to do is carry around the copy of the rules regarding your character (something you are supposed to do anyway.) The rules really leave nothing open to interpretation, you just need 5 different things to show how it works if you have someone that think Kelanen is the sweetest most unique god for war domain and favored souls ever as a DM. Page 2 of the Deities document, a copy of a book that Favored Soul is in, and the information on Courtblade should actually cover it for proof.
JamesMaissen 10-16-07, 09:09 AM	Expect table variation. It's not something that I would build a character around. Ed You shouldn't get any more variation than you would for initiating a grapple (and likely less). This is the one kind of 'variation' that one should not demure from, as it's not in anyway grey. -James
Sieylianna 10-16-07, 06:00 PM	You shouldn't get any more variation than you would for initiating a grapple (and likely less). This is the one kind of 'variation' that one should not demure from, as it's not in anyway grey. I would think the fact that there was a Circle ruling to the contrary to lead to some variation, but YMMV. Ed
praetorgradivus 10-16-07, 06:58 PM	Personnally, I never thought that you got weapon focus in all swords...i just thought an elven or halfelven worshiper of the prince of swords might prefer an elven sword. It's just a flavor thing because the courtblade and spend a feat to use it isn't better than just using a greatsword in the first place. In any event, since the weapon focus is gained through the class ability of the favored soul can it still be used to give the +1 to hit to the Courtblade. If the answer is no because Kelanen's favored weapon is listed as martial and courtblade is exotic, then wouldn't that mean that Mayahiene's cleric's only get the focus feat when they use the bastard sword two-handed. Only the two-handed use of the bastard sword is actually martial. The bastard sword itself is exotic.
jstorrie 10-16-07, 09:25 PM	That's the same implication I was about to mention. Clerics of Mayaheine still need to take EWP to wield a bastard sword in one hand, but they can do it.
JamesMaissen 10-18-07, 04:55 AM	I would think the fact that there was a Circle ruling to the contrary to lead to some variation, but YMMV. Ed I'm sorry? Contrary to 'pick one of the deity's favored weapons' for granted feats relating to them? Where would that be found? -James
Reneshat 10-21-07, 12:07 AM	Yes the feat applies. The method in which you get the feat makes no difference in the application of the feat in this manner. Personnally, I never thought that you got weapon focus in all swords...i just thought an elven or halfelven worshiper of the prince of swords might prefer an elven sword. It's just a flavor thing because the courtblade and spend a feat to use it isn't better than just using a greatsword in the first place. In any event, since the weapon focus is gained through the class ability of the favored soul can it still be used to give the +1 to hit to the Courtblade. If the answer is no because Kelanen's favored weapon is listed as martial and courtblade is exotic, then wouldn't that mean that Mayahiene's cleric's only get the focus feat when they use the bastard sword two-handed. Only the two-handed use of the bastard sword is actually martial. The bastard sword itself is exotic.
CSHunt68 10-22-07, 10:39 AM	The rules really leave nothing open to interpretation <snip> Uhhhh .... yeeeah. New to 3.5 are we? ;)
Reneshat 10-22-07, 11:40 PM	Uhhhh .... yeeeah. New to 3.5 are we? ;) Just because people will argue otherwise, that doesn't mean the rules aren't clear. It's like when I was arguing with my friend that "No, you cannot apply a buckler's AC bonus when using a two handed ranged weapon." He tried arguing the other way, but in the end absolutely everything in the rules said otherwise. There are places where the rules are clear, and there are places where they are not. This is one where they are clear. The attempt to add campaign specific house-rules does not apply since there is no official documentation of this being a separate rule. Since there is not, you must apply the rules as written, which in this case are quite clear, and ignore people's "understanding" of the situation and go with the letter of the rule. Weapon Focus applies to one weapon. If that weapon is a greatsword, it also applies to Elven Courtblade. That's it. It's not difficult, and not open to interpretation.
JamesMaissen 10-23-07, 12:14 AM	when using a two handed ranged weapon." Dare I ask what a 'two handed ranged weapon' is? -James
ChainLink 10-23-07, 12:20 AM	Dare I ask what a 'two handed ranged weapon' is? -James I imagine any type of bow, for instance, would fall under this description.
CSHunt68 10-23-07, 08:35 AM	Just because people will argue otherwise, that doesn't mean the rules aren't clear. It's like when I was arguing with my friend that "No, you cannot apply a buckler's AC bonus when using a two handed ranged weapon." He tried arguing the other way, but in the end absolutely everything in the rules said otherwise. There are places where the rules are clear, and there are places where they are not. This is one where they are clear. The attempt to add campaign specific house-rules does not apply since there is no official documentation of this being a separate rule. Since there is not, you must apply the rules as written, which in this case are quite clear, and ignore people's "understanding" of the situation and go with the letter of the rule. Weapon Focus applies to one weapon. If that weapon is a greatsword, it also applies to Elven Courtblade. That's it. It's not difficult, and not open to interpretation. Sure it is. Just not in YOUR mind. The 3.5 rules are full of inconsistencies and vagaries. Get used to it. Everyone who thinks they're right thinks the rules are clear in that case. That doesn't mean they really are.
magebeast 10-23-07, 10:42 AM	Sure it is. Just not in YOUR mind. The 3.5 rules are full of inconsistencies and vagaries. Get used to it. Everyone who thinks they're right thinks the rules are clear in that case. That doesn't mean they really are. Can you power attack with a light weapon? Is that rule unclear? That's a silly generalization.
KarmaInferno 10-23-07, 01:18 PM	[double post]
CSHunt68 10-23-07, 05:08 PM	Can you power attack with a light weapon? Is that rule unclear? That's a silly generalization. How certain are you that there isn't a p-class or a feat somewhere in some badly edited book that mixes up that issue? What's silly is to defend the clarity of the 3.5 rules.
KarmaInferno 10-23-07, 06:35 PM	Just because people will argue otherwise, that doesn't mean the rules aren't clear. It's like when I was arguing with my friend that "No, you cannot apply a buckler's AC bonus when using a two handed ranged weapon." He tried arguing the other way, but in the end absolutely everything in the rules said otherwise. "You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it." :confused: Historically a buckler is EXACTLY the sort of shield an archer might wear, if he was to wear a shield at all. This is of course assuming there's not a guy holding a tower shield in front of the archer. -karma
CSHunt68 10-23-07, 07:00 PM	"You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it." :confused: Historically a buckler is EXACTLY the sort of shield an archer might wear, if he was to wear a shield at all. This is of course assuming there's not a guy holding a tower shield in front of the archer. -karma lol Love those crystal-clear rules. Of course, just because people argue, doesn't mean you're wrong. :rolleyes:
JamesMaissen 10-23-07, 09:59 PM	Can you power attack with a light weapon? Is that rule unclear? That's a silly generalization. Well technically you don't power attack *with* a weapon. You declare power attack and suffer a penalty on melee attacks. Depending on the weapon you are attacking with you get some (or no) bonus for doing so. Natural weapons and monk unarmed strikes are interesting exceptions in power attack normalities. -James
Reneshat 10-24-07, 12:57 AM	"You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it." :confused: Historically a buckler is EXACTLY the sort of shield an archer might wear, if he was to wear a shield at all. This is of course assuming there's not a guy holding a tower shield in front of the archer. -karma "Most projectile weapons require two hands to use (see specific weapon descriptions)" "You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round." www.d20srd.org Yep, crystal clear.
MwaO 10-24-07, 08:06 AM	"Most projectile weapons require two hands to use (see specific weapon descriptions)" "You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round." www.d20srd.org Yep, crystal clear. Not sure how you can see that as being crystal clear. Likely, sure, but....You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty. Being unable to use the buckler's AC bonus is a negative effect and could easily be construed as being a penalty. If it is indeed a penalty, then it doesn't apply when wielding a bow or crossbow. Assuming that every time the writers of D&D use a word that has specific meaning is the intended meaning has a lot of wacky effects, such as Cure Light Wounds being a Turning Attempt.
CSHunt68 10-24-07, 09:08 AM	Like I said earlier - everyone who thinks they're DEFINITELY right thinks the rules, in that case, are absolutely crystal clear. In many, many cases, sadly, the rules are NOT crystal clear. 'Nuff said. No point belabouring the issue.
JamesMaissen 10-24-07, 03:02 PM	"Most projectile weapons require two hands to use (see specific weapon descriptions)" www.d20srd.org Yep, crystal clear. You are confusing things here, at least as I'm reading what you are saying. A bow is not a two handed weapon. It is a projectile weapon. Perhaps I'm missing your point here? -James
Reneshat 10-24-07, 11:52 PM	You are confusing things here, at least as I'm reading what you are saying. A bow is not a two handed weapon. It is a projectile weapon. Perhaps I'm missing your point here? -James It's a projectile weapon that requires "two hands" to use. What else would you call that?
JamesMaissen 10-25-07, 12:17 AM	It's a projectile weapon that requires "two hands" to use. What else would you call that? I'd call it a projectile weapon. One hand holds the bow, the other hand draws the arrows, notches them and the like. But it's not a two handed weapon. That's a melee weapon category. Confusing the two leads to comments like you don't threaten squares with a spiked gauntlet when holding a bow in the other hand, etc. -James
Reneshat 10-25-07, 02:08 AM	Confusing the two leads to comments like you don't threaten squares with a spiked gauntlet when holding a bow in the other hand, etc. -James Valid argument there, however that doesn't change the fact that the bow utilizes the offhand, so you can't use it to maneuver the buckler.
KarmaInferno 10-25-07, 10:57 AM	The problem here is that 3.5 uses specific terminology. A "two-handed weapon" is a specific defined term. Something that is "held in two hands", while logically the same, is not a defined term, it's descriptive. You cannot automatically assume that they mean the same thing for the purposes of rules mechanics. There have been a number of cases where because something was not specifically labeled with a defined term, it was ruled to NOT be the same. Coupled with the passage about having no penalties, this creates fuzziness, why it's NOT a clear rule. -karma
CSHunt68 10-28-07, 08:41 PM	Seriously, this could not have more perfectly illustrated the point I made. Thanks, reneshat. ;)
Reneshat 11-07-07, 04:17 AM	Seriously, this could not have more perfectly illustrated the point I made. Thanks, reneshat. ;) Hey, I try to help out whenever I can.