Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Maesto 04-20-07, 11:05 AM	Ok, so I've heard a fair bit of hype about the third level knight ability, but I'm wondering if it's really worth it? If an opponent starts their turn in my threatened square, all squares I threaten are treated as difficult terrain. This means double movement cost, +2 to DC of tumble checks, no 5-foot steps. However, they can 5-foot step out of the threatened area (assuming they can get there), as the terrain you're moving into dictates the movement cost (see somewhere in the FAQ). So, as far as I can tell, the only real benefit to this ability is to make it harder for rogues to maintain a flank-tag (having to tumble at full speed over difficult terrain), or if you're using a spiked chain, or a reach/nonreach melee combo, where you can stop an opponent without any reach from being able to full attack you. Are there any other benefits that I'm missing?
KarmaInferno 04-20-07, 11:50 AM	No charging through your threat area. If you trip someone in your threat area, they are effectively stuck in the square they are in unless they get up, which provokes AoOs of course. Spiked Chain trip-monkeys should love this. You're all about battlefield control, similar to how a well-placed Evards is. -karma
dkay807 04-20-07, 11:55 AM	Ok, so I've heard a fair bit of hype about the third level knight ability, but I'm wondering if it's really worth it? If an opponent starts their turn in my threatened square, all squares I threaten are treated as difficult terrain. This means double movement cost, +2 to DC of tumble checks, no 5-foot steps. However, they can 5-foot step out of the threatened area (assuming they can get there), as the terrain you're moving into dictates the movement cost (see somewhere in the FAQ). So, as far as I can tell, the only real benefit to this ability is to make it harder for rogues to maintain a flank-tag (having to tumble at full speed over difficult terrain), or if you're using a spiked chain, or a reach/nonreach melee combo, where you can stop an opponent without any reach from being able to full attack you. Are there any other benefits that I'm missing? Reach Weapon + Armor Spikes... enough said. Regardless, people often get overly excited about an ability on paper that when used in practice, doesn't turn out to be so amazing. A prime example of this is the Mind Over Magic ability of the Occult Slayer. Sounds much better than it actually is in practice, considering how few targetted spells are really used.
Jay_Ibero_911 04-20-07, 12:21 PM	Reach Weapon + Armor Spikes... enough said. Regardless, people often get overly excited about an ability on paper that when used in practice, doesn't turn out to be so amazing. A prime example of this is the Mind Over Magic ability of the Occult Slayer. Sounds much better than it actually is in practice, considering how few targetted spells are really used. But so worth it when you bounce a hold person and the caster fails his save...that was such a fun combat....
Maesto 04-20-07, 12:25 PM	The ability only works when the critter starts in your threat area, so people can still charge through it, unless they start in your threatened area, which is unusual (charge somebody else? Only sounds beneficial if you have pounce or spirited charge). A lot of people have hyped up the ability; I just don't see that it's such a great ability if it needs a reach weapon and armour spikes or a spiked chain to exploit it. I guess the other use for it is enlarged characters.
LachlarlanIII 04-20-07, 12:28 PM	The ability only works when the critter starts in your threat area, so people can still charge through it, unless they start in your threatened area, which is unusual (charge somebody else? Only sounds beneficial if you have pounce or spirited charge). A lot of people have hyped up the ability; I just don't see that it's such a great ability if it needs a reach weapon and armour spikes or a spiked chain to exploit it. I guess the other use for it is enlarged characters. Bulwark of Defence + reach + armor spikes + Hold the Line = someone that no one wants to get near. :) Or at least, someone that most enemies are cautious of approaching.
Jay_Ibero_911 04-20-07, 12:57 PM	Race:Human Alignment:Lawful Neutral or Good STR-16 (10) DEX-14 (6) CON-14 (6) INT-12 (4) WIS-8 (0) CHA-10 (2) Lv1(Knight)Power Attack, Cleave Lv2(Knight)Mounted Combat Lv3(Knight)Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain) Lv4(Fighter)Combat Reflexes, +1 STR Lv5(Fighter)Hold the Line Lv6(Tactical Soldier)Flanker, Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain) Lv7(Exotic Weapon Master)Flurry of Strikes Lv8(Tactical Soldier)Sidestep, +1 STR Lv9(Exotic Weapon Master)Exotic Reach, Expert Tactician Lv10(Fighter) Lv11(Fighter)Weapon Specialization Lv12(Fighter)Deft Opportunist, +1 DEX Lv13(Fighter)Melee Weapon Mastery Lv14(Fighter) Lv15(Fighter)Defensive Sweep, Combat Intuition Here's a bulwark of defense and spiked chain build that doesn't trip at all, yet still can generate plenty of AOO's. You charge=AOO, approach w/o reach=AOO, start threatened and move w/o tumbling=AOO, and ultimately start threatened and don't move=AOO. Sidestep from tactical soldier gives you a free extra 5ft step when you make an AOO too, for further tactical advantage, and exotic reach lets you AOO on foes with cover too.
LachlarlanIII 04-20-07, 01:10 PM	Race:Human Alignment:Lawful Neutral or Good STR-16 (10) DEX-14 (6) CON-14 (6) INT-12 (4) WIS-8 (0) CHA-10 (2) Lv1(Knight)Power Attack, Cleave Lv2(Knight)Mounted Combat Lv3(Knight)Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain) Lv4(Fighter)Combat Reflexes, +1 STR Lv5(Fighter)Hold the Line Lv6(Tactical Soldier)Flanker, Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain) Lv7(Exotic Weapon Master)Flurry of Strikes Lv8(Tactical Soldier)Sidestep, +1 STR Lv9(Exotic Weapon Master)Exotic Reach, Expert Tactician Lv10(Fighter) Lv11(Fighter)Weapon Specialization Lv12(Fighter)Deft Opportunist, +1 DEX Lv13(Fighter)Melee Weapon Mastery Lv14(Fighter) Lv15(Fighter)Defensive Sweep, Combat Intuition Here's a bulwark of defense and spiked chain build that doesn't trip at all, yet still can generate plenty of AOO's. You charge=AOO, approach w/o reach=AOO, start threatened and move w/o tumbling=AOO, and ultimately start threatened and don't move=AOO. Sidestep from tactical soldier gives you a free extra 5ft step when you make an AOO too, for further tactical advantage, and exotic reach lets you AOO on foes with cover too. Funny enough, Hold the Line isn't a fighter bonus feat. So you would need to switch it with Weapon Focus. Also, in order to avoid Spiked Chain cheesiness, I would opt for the Greatspear and Armor Spikes. You would still threaten the same area, but you would also do more damage on your AoOs and have a greater chance of getting to use your Cleave feat. After 3rd, you wouldn't even have to remain Lawful, and could replace the EWM (Flurry) level with Barbarian or some other class. Some may cry cheese, but I like cheese :D It isn't as if you'd be getting much use out of the only ability you'd keep otherwise.
Jay_Ibero_911 04-20-07, 01:29 PM	Funny enough, Hold the Line isn't a fighter bonus feat. So you would need to switch it with Weapon Focus. Also, in order to avoid Spiked Chain cheesiness, I would opt for the Greatspear and Armor Spikes. You would still threaten the same area, but you would also do more damage on your AoOs and have a greater chance of getting to use your Cleave feat. After 3rd, you wouldn't even have to remain Lawful, and could replace the EWM (Flurry) level with Barbarian or some other class. Some may cry cheese, but I like cheese :D It isn't as if you'd be getting much use out of the only ability you'd keep otherwise. It's silly to call the spiked chain cheese and then goes out of your way to simulate what it can do. Good catch on Hold the Line though...really wierd that it's not a fighter bonus feat...You wouldn't HAVE to remain lawful...but it does let you keep your 3 uses of fighting challenge...
LachlarlanIII 04-20-07, 01:37 PM	It's silly to call the spiked chain cheese and then goes out of your way to simulate what it can do. Good catch on Hold the Line though...really wierd that it's not a fighter bonus feat...You wouldn't HAVE to remain lawful...but it does let you keep your 3 uses of fighting challenge... Well, a lot of people are tired of seeing the spiked chain really. At least the method I stated is different even if it does acomplish the same thing. About the Knight's Challenge ability you would keep: Would you rather have a +1 bonus to attack and damage against one foe, or would you rather take one level of Bard and gain the same bonus against multiple foes, or one level of Barbarian and gain a +2 bonus to hit and damage against multiple foes. Sure you wouldn't be able to use it as often, but taking one level of Bard and Extra Music, you would be able to do it 5 times instead of just 3.
Jay_Ibero_911 04-20-07, 01:46 PM	Well, a lot of people are tired of seeing the spiked chain really. At least the method I stated is different even if it does acomplish the same thing. About the Knight's Challenge ability you would keep: Would you rather have a +1 bonus to attack and damage against one foe, or would you rather take one level of Bard and gain the same bonus against multiple foes, or one level of Barbarian and gain a +2 bonus to hit and damage against multiple foes. Sure you wouldn't be able to use it as often, but taking one level of Bard and Extra Music, you would be able to do it 5 times instead of just 3. Well of course that's fine and good if you go a route with a free level and feat. And give up the flurry. And while there is plenty of talk of spiked chain users...I personally don't see them in play all that much...
KShaver 04-20-07, 04:16 PM	Also, in order to avoid Spiked Chain cheesiness, I would opt for the Greatspear and Armor Spikes. The longspear will also allow for setting against charges and take one less feat. Similarly you could keep the EWP and take pole axe (CWar) or dwarven warpike (RoS) and deal a lot more damage while keeping the reach and ability to set against a charge.
Boric 04-20-07, 07:50 PM	Hey Maesto How do you get this? If the enemy has to come through difficult terain to charge then they can't charge. PHB p155 "if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge." If the Knight had a reach weapon and the enemy didn't they wouldn't be able to charge. Am I missing something? :confused: The ability only works when the critter starts in your threat area, so people can still charge through it, unless they start in your threatened area, which is unusual (charge somebody else? Only sounds beneficial if you have pounce or spirited charge). A lot of people have hyped up the ability; I just don't see that it's such a great ability if it needs a reach weapon and armour spikes or a spiked chain to exploit it. I guess the other use for it is enlarged characters.
Timlagor 04-20-07, 10:40 PM	You're probably missing the fact that the Knight ability only works against those who start their turn in your threatened area. It looks great for Enlarged Shocktroopers to me: CHARGE! they have to move (provoking) and only get to retalliate with a single attack. ...now throw in Staggering Strike :schemes: