Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Koushiro 03-21-08, 05:12 PM	Hey all, finally got my Kobold all hammered out and I want opinions! STR 10 DEX 16 CON 12 INT 12 WIS 8 CHA 14 Bard 5/Dragonblooded Sorcerer 1/Lyrical Thaumaturge/Sublime Cord This gives me everything I really want out of a character. Starting feat is Dragonwrought Kobold: Silver for the +2 to disguise checks and the niceness of being a dragon. Not going to take the wings. I like them ascetically but the actual mechanics of them suck. Sorcerer 1 oddly to me seems a nice dip for a bard. I'm wondering what I should get for spells however, as my charisma isn't horrifically high (not grey elf wizard 20 at least) I don't know how much I'd want to really depend on saves. Obviously take inspirational boost and so forth for bard, and pick up the dragon breath feat since bard spells can power it. I know I'm eating a lot to get the 10 strength...
jstorrie 03-21-08, 07:48 PM	Why the Sorceror dip? I don't think it looks very good–you get bless, but that doesn't stack with bardsong. You don't need Draconic Heritage. So why delay your bard spellcasting progression? Why not go up to Bard 8 for bardsong +2?
UMiskatonic 03-22-08, 04:30 PM	I think this is all wrong. What kind of character do you want to be? If you want to be, say, a charismatic enchanter, then let that idea guide your stat allocation and spell choices. If you would rather be a support character, you can build that character too. Bards also make decent illusionists, or archers, or hat-wearing, whip-toting archaeologists. But if you don't set the concept first, you're going to have a pile of abilities, not an actual character.
Koushiro 03-22-08, 05:40 PM	Well I want to try and be a better sorcerer then a sorcerer. I'm tired of being a sorcerer and having no HP, skill points, armor, etc. Plus I've already got a sorcerer/DO/Loremaster at 13th level.... I miss 1 caster level on bard, but that doens't delay Sublime Cord (if somehow in the next few months I get to 10th level) and it opens up a wealth of low level options too. I'll be grabbing Draconic Breath for a 30' cone of cold and mostly utility sorcerer spells. Looking at mostly ones I could cast without spell failure. I'm a dragon wrought kobold and want to be as dragonish as possible and this set up allows me to do it. I'm not seeing any drawback at all from this so far.
jstorrie 03-22-08, 07:02 PM	If you're not seeing drawbacks you're not looking closely enough. You're losing a caster level from both Bard and Sublime Chord. You're taking a the worst Bard level (fifth) without following it up with a very good one (sixth–+1 to saves and +1 to BAB.) You lose four skill points. If you did Bard 6 / Lyric Thaumaturge 4, you could get a first and a second-level Sorceror spell on your list anyway, and extra 3rd- and 4th-level spell slots. Bards do get some very great 4th-level spells which are far more useful than anything you'd get out of Sor1–Dimension Door, Cure Critical Wounds, Dominate Person, Freedom of Movement, Greater Invis, Shout, Unluck–you wouldn't want an additional pick out of those? Bard 6 / Lyric Thaumaturge 4 / Sublime Chord is going to work out a lot better for you.
UMiskatonic 03-22-08, 09:55 PM	I like the idea of draconic breath plus a lot of bard utility spells. You can convert to do damage, or have a wide variety of useful tricks.
UMiskatonic 03-22-08, 10:00 PM	But, I still don't understand what this character will do if: A giant threatens A beautiful maiden is kidnapped by a masked figure on horseback A tavern brawl begins Some angry dwarves complain about your stink --------------------------------------------------------------- What do you see this character doing, round after round, and maybe we can help you get there. But if the answer is "I want a kobold bard", we're done because you're already there.
Koushiro 03-23-08, 03:59 AM	Well she's not to developed in my mind yet to truly decide what I want her to be doing round by round. I want her to be puzzling to people. I want her to be able to sit down in a battle field and pull out a lyre and begin to play while blaster style effects are going on around her without any apparent source. Melodic Casting helps start that out, followed by Disguise Spell to make it very difficult to notice the magic's source. Sculpt spell would also be a good idea I'd think, to add to the illusion. I really want her to be able to have a breath weapon before 4th level spells get into the mix too, which is what the level of sorcerer does. Lg is done at the end of the year and the way things look around my area it'd be very unlikely that she'd make it past 5th level at best. Though to be fair I should take a closer look at what spells are available for a Bard. I paid for the strength and dexterity to be able to use that shortbow after all. :-/ For the Draconic Right of Passage I was thinking of taking expeditious retreat. *A giant threatens* -She'd threaten them right back! (Silly giants think just because they're so tall that they get to push people around.) *A beautiful maiden is kidnapped by a masked figure on horseback* -I don't know what she'd do then. It'd be interesting to find out. *A tavern brawl begins* -She'd join in the fun until the guards show up, then it'd be best to beat a hasty retreat lest her disguise be seen through. Wouldn't want to dishonor Aasterinan by letting the fun end too quickly. *Some angry dwarves complain about your stink* -There would be some kind of song about hypocrisy that would be appropriate to play at that time. Break out the Lyre.
UMiskatonic 03-24-08, 12:15 AM	OK, thanks for the added detail. I'll throw out ideas in the order they come to me. 1) Your stats don't support your build as much as they could. This is a big problem, and will give you a character that is less fun to play. To be a magical trickster kind of bard, you will need spells and skill points. Dump Str to 8, drop Dex to 12, and get your INT and CHA up there. This gives you more spells, higher DCs, and more skill points. Skill points are what you use to bluff, perform, disguise, answer riddles (knowledge). 2) Notice that NONE of your examples include the phrase "I waste him with my crossbow". You do NOT need to be good at shooting things, and it's counter-productive. The stats you have short-changed lower your chances with UMD, make your illusions easier to disbelieve, give you fewer spells a day. And, you won't have the feats (Precise, point Blank, rapid shot) to make shooting worthwhile anyway. 3) It's mathematically simple to prove that you would do more damage throwing alchemist's fire. Touch attacks are much easier. 4) You don't want to rely on high DCs? I'm sorry, but have you looked at the bard spell list? You can either buff the party, or force others to make saves vs. enchantments or illusions. Threre is NO good direct damage option for bards. 5) Give some thought to your feats. Which feats come at what level? That could make a big difference, and you'll never have a lot of feats, so they will really have to count. 6) Consider bard/mage of the arcane order. While it's not typical, the spellpool gives you some seriously good options. Many of these (burning hands) are cones, and you could easily describe it as a breath weapon if you wanted. **The regions I play in give out access to this like candy. Results may vary*** 7) You'll die a lot at APL 8 and higher from missing fortitude saves. Consider a 14 Con if you can swing it. It might be tough with a kobold stats. If so, plan on an amulet of health in your future.
Koushiro 03-24-08, 06:28 PM	Well perhaps I will adjust things a little bit then. When I say I don't want to rely on high DCs, I mean that I don't have a way to start with DC 16 spells like a Grey elf cheesewizard does. Though there is a bonus feat for Lyric Thurmaturge that allows for a burning of bardic music to give a +2 to DCs for illusions and enchantments. I've got a good feel for the feats and when I'm taking them. No MotAO access here in the shield lands or in the Domain of Greyhawk. I don't honestly expect to get to APL 8. The last thing I want to do is build this character with high level play in mind. It's not going to happen. We have no conventions here and I'm having a hard time even finding a judge to run the Greyhawk Ruins first part to get the character in. So here we go perhaps? STR 8, DEX 14, CON 12, INT 14, WIS 8, CHA 15 1-Dragonwrought Kobold: Silver 3-Melodic Casting 6-Lyric Spell 9-Disguise Spell
JamesMaissen 03-25-08, 12:45 AM	I don't honestly expect to get to APL 8. The last thing I want to do is build this character with high level play in mind. It's not going to happen. Then why are you talking about a sublime cord build?? Don't take the caster level hit for the sorcerer level.. instead just be a bard. Use the skills you get to directly contribute rather than to qualify for sublime cord. Lastly, what's kobold give to you, besides being 'a kobold'? Take the same character and go with deep halfling or gnome. Pick extra music at first level and go from there. -James
UMiskatonic 03-26-08, 02:14 PM	I like the revamp a lot more. Good job.
Koushiro 03-26-08, 02:47 PM	Lastly, what's kobold give to you, besides being 'a kobold'? Well was one of the people fighting for our right to be able to play a Kobold. Being a Kobold makes me smaller, faster, better armored and a dragon instead of a humanoid. It gives me role playing opportunities being a gnome or a halfling wouldn't. Some of us enjoy the experience of playing something different. I can add to a table without having to be an ultimate min/max machine. I'm hold up my seat in the table, don't worry about it.
UMiskatonic 03-26-08, 03:34 PM	Koushiro, I think there's a gap between what you are thinking and what you're posting on the board, and that's where people like James and I are tripping up. If you really feel enthusiatic about kobolds, that's great. You deserve to have a character that's fun. BUT, if you type out the words "I want to be a bard, tell me what you think", then that's all the rest of us know, and we're not wrong to point out that you can be a bard of some other race, or that other bard builds are perhaps more effective. All we've got are the words on the page, and we may not even have that much unless everyone is 100% clear all of the time.
UMiskatonic 03-26-08, 03:49 PM	STR 8, DEX 14, CON 12, INT 14, WIS 8, CHA 15 1-Dragonwrought Kobold: Silver 3-Melodic Casting 6-Lyric Spell 9-Disguise Spell So, you are the only person that needs to be happy with this build. And if you ARE perfectly satisfied, then we're all done here. However, it feels like you're asking for something. I just don't know what you want. So, here's some general advice, and you can do what you like with it. 1) It seems like your starting point is Kobold bard with the dragonwrought feat at 1st level. You could have gotten more useful advice by saying "Help me build a bard who has the following characteristics..." 2) Even so, I would switch Con and Dex. As a bard, your FORT save is terrible, you'll want the +1. And what are you planning to do with Dex? You shouldn't be anywhere near melee, so AC shouldn't matter too much. Besides, chain shirt and natural armor and +1 from Dex will be pretty good for a long time. 3) Can you take Draconic Breath without taking Draconic Heritage? I don't have the kobold rules, so I'm not sure. If the answer is yes, grab that breath weapon as soon as possible. 4) You don't need Disguise spell all that much. Look at the rules for Listen. It's HARD to pinpoint a location by ear. Just learn invisibility, and keep moving. Besides, are you going to deal with the invisible bard, or the barbarian with the greataxe? Remember that in LG, there are ALWAYS three other players, usually five. It's like the joke: You don't need to outrun the bear... 5) You may only ever have four feats with this character. Four. That's it. Just four. This means that feats are your most limited resource. Choose wisely, because it really matters. Extra Music is a great, great low-level choice, re-train it when you find you have more than enough songs/day.
kinevon 03-26-08, 05:14 PM	2) Even so, I would switch Con and Dex. As a bard, your FORT save is terrible, you'll want the +1. And what are you planning to do with Dex? You shouldn't be anywhere near melee, so AC shouldn't matter too much. Besides, chain shirt and natural armor and +1 from Dex will be pretty good for a long time. Can't. He would only save 2 build points by lowering Dex to 12, but it would cost 4 build points to raise Con to 14. Kobolds are +2 Dex, -2 Con, so he already has Con at 14 pre-adjustment. 3) Can you take Draconic Breath without taking Draconic Heritage? I don't have the kobold rules, so I'm not sure. If the answer is yes, grab that breath weapon as soon as possible. No, "Draconic" feats all require Draconic Heritage first, and Draconic Heritage requires being a Sorceror. Kobolds get access to a substitution level for Sorceror (Dragonblood Sorceror) that gives them Draconic Heritage in place of their familiar.
UMiskatonic 03-26-08, 06:11 PM	Ok. In that case, leave the stats. However, you'll want to get an amulet of health and a vest of resistance sooner, rather than later. Are you ok with not having a breath weapon?
Timlagor 03-27-08, 04:52 PM	Is this the 'burn spell slots to breath' breath weapon? If so you're not going to contribute significantly with it. It's already weak damage on a straight Sorceror (redeemed somewhat by sparing spells known) and you don't even get the spell slots of a straight Bard. by the time you get those very few Sublime Chord slots you a) have much better things to do with them b) will find your breath completely outclassed in damage dealing by anyone who has made any effort at all If it's a different Feat just ignore me ;)