Kobold Beguiler? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Kobold Beguiler? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Arvagor
08-13-07, 01:14 PM I don't have a specific build in mind, but was wondering what people thought of a kobold beguiler as an alternative to straight sorcerer?

Here's my thoughts... Don't focus on any of the purely roguish aspects (maybe Hide and Disguise); instead, build him as a sorcerer with more HP, more skill points, can wear armor, and can cast from a larger personal selection of spells (instead of the very small list one would get as a "normal" sorcerer). Looking at the beguiler spell list, I can see that there's really no big boom spells, but rather a lot more that can deal non-lethal or disable another creature, and these seem appropriate for a kobold raised among dragons who value peace and contemplating philosophy...

Thoughts?
waytoomuchcoffee
08-13-07, 01:56 PM The problem with Beguiler is that there are almost no spells to interact with Undead, Constructs, etc. Very similar to a Rogue in that manner. But while a rogue can still attack (without sneak), a Beguiler is pretty much screwed. If your DM is kind you might be able to use a Minor Image or something to fool something, but hardly what I would call effective. If you pick your mods correctly (and assuming the blurbs tell you enough) it could work better, but you never know which combats you will be less-than-effective in.
Tonus
08-13-07, 02:15 PM The problem with Beguiler is that there are almost no spells to interact with Undead, Constructs, etc. Very similar to a Rogue in that manner. But while a rogue can still attack (without sneak), a Beguiler is pretty much screwed. If your DM is kind you might be able to use a Minor Image or something to fool something, but hardly what I would call effective. If you pick your mods correctly (and assuming the blurbs tell you enough) it could work better, but you never know which combats you will be less-than-effective in.

I don't think a beguiler would be any *worse* off than a rogue. You've got the same hit dice, the same light armor proficiency -- so you aren't taking any more risk moving into melee and using the aid another action than a rogue would.

At high levels Use Magic Device will let you pack some scrolls/wands to deal with such situations better. And at low levels, packing a few vials of Alchemist Fire and Holy Water is probably a good idea.
Arvagor
08-13-07, 02:16 PM I considered that (the issue of critters with illusion/enchantment resistances)... I think there's still potentially enough spells that allow him to fall back into pure support mode -- heck, there's always glitterdust ;)
cetiken
08-13-07, 02:22 PM I think its a good idea and I'm considering it myself.

I don't have my books handy at the moment, so I'm probably gona make a few wrong names of things. I like the idea of using the Practiced Metamagic (? RoD feat opend with kobald card) to with Shape Spell to adjust the areas of spells like Color Spray and Glitterdust without a change in spell level. Somthing like that is what I'd do.

Though I think you'll be doing your party a disservice by not putting two of your many skill ranks into Search and Disable Device. That much I think you'll find is at least expected of you. And you'll probably want to invest in Bluff as well. Just in case feinting seems like a good idea.
Harliquinn
08-13-07, 02:28 PM Keep in mind, undead are affected by: Figments, Glamers and Shadow spells (Illusions).

From the Beguiler list, that includes:
Blinding Color Surge
Blur
Crown of Veils
Disguise Self
Displacement
Ghost Sound
Invisibility
Invisibility Sphere
Greater Invisibility
Mass Invisibility
Legion of Sentinels
Major Image
Minor Image
Mirror Image
Mirror Image, Greater
Misdirection
Phantom Battle
Project Image (M)
Screen
Seeming
Shadow Walk
Silence
Silent Image
Veil
Zone of Silence
Arvagor
08-13-07, 02:34 PM Though I think you'll be doing your party a disservice by not putting two of your many skill ranks into Search and Disable Device. That much I think you'll find is at least expected of you. And you'll probably want to invest in Bluff as well. Just in case feinting seems like a good idea.
Well, I think that really depends on how you market yourself -- if you call yourself a sorcerer, focusing on illusion and enchantment because of your peaceful upbringing, then there should be no expectation of using rogue skills. It's the same situation clerics have -- are they a martial cleric or a healing cleric? Just make sure the party knows up front...

As far as taking ranks in Bluff, that seems to be a given, what with the beguiler's Suprise Casting (Ex) ability...
Tonus
08-13-07, 02:56 PM One thing to point out, as a Kobold beguiler you will need to look at encumbrance very carefully. Armored casting is great and all, but it *really* makes encumbrance a challenge. For example, a Str 4 Kobold has carrying capacity of 13 x .75 = 9.75. With small leather armor (7.5), small dagger (.5) and a spell component pouch (2) you're already into a medium load -- which kinda negates your mobility advantage.

Consider putting a point or two into strength, or the Eschew Materials feat.
cetiken
08-13-07, 03:02 PM Also, a few points in strength keep you from being what we in the BK like to call Shadow-bait.

Of course your skill points are yours to assign, I just think you'll have plenty to do with what you want and still take care of traps.
Arvagor
08-13-07, 03:20 PM Consider putting a point or two into strength, or the Eschew Materials feat.Eschew Materials would be a good choice -- I'm also considering the Dracolexi PrC class for him, and that's one of the pre-reqs.

Preliminary starting stats are: Str 6, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 10. I suppose I could yank 2 points out of Wis or Cha to bump Str by two more (more likely Wis, since Bluff is Cha-based)...

Maybe Beguiler through 8th, then finish out with Dracolexi?
cetiken
08-13-07, 07:18 PM IIRC a Beguiler gets eschew materials and still spell as some point in their progression as bonus feats.
Arvagor
08-13-07, 07:49 PM IIRC a Beguiler gets eschew materials and still spell as some point in their progression as bonus feats.Silent Spell at 5th, and Still Spell at 10th...
cetiken
08-14-07, 11:41 AM I've just taken a look at he Dragonblood Sorcercer racial substitution levels and am currently of the opinion that those are what you actually may want more. Its a pretty cool set of optoins for spellcasting.
Fsi-Dib
08-16-07, 02:46 AM A little reminder on Beguiler's spell list and how to use them against undeads and constructs.

Most of these are mindless, so a mere silent image of a brick wall could stop zombies. They see a wall, I really really doubt they'd try to wonder through it, unless the DM is a real jerk.

Also with Disguise Self, the kobold has better chances at being social to others.
Puggle Halfwine
08-16-07, 08:27 AM Honestly, I thought that the Dragonblood Sorcerer alternate class features sucked. The first level one is ok, but I took Metamagic Specialist instead...

Back on topic, I reckon that a beguiler kobold would definitely work. The vast amount of spells known will be a huge bonus.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Arvagor 08-13-07, 01:14 PM	I don't have a specific build in mind, but was wondering what people thought of a kobold beguiler as an alternative to straight sorcerer? Here's my thoughts... Don't focus on any of the purely roguish aspects (maybe Hide and Disguise); instead, build him as a sorcerer with more HP, more skill points, can wear armor, and can cast from a larger personal selection of spells (instead of the very small list one would get as a "normal" sorcerer). Looking at the beguiler spell list, I can see that there's really no big boom spells, but rather a lot more that can deal non-lethal or disable another creature, and these seem appropriate for a kobold raised among dragons who value peace and contemplating philosophy... Thoughts?
waytoomuchcoffee 08-13-07, 01:56 PM	The problem with Beguiler is that there are almost no spells to interact with Undead, Constructs, etc. Very similar to a Rogue in that manner. But while a rogue can still attack (without sneak), a Beguiler is pretty much screwed. If your DM is kind you might be able to use a Minor Image or something to fool something, but hardly what I would call effective. If you pick your mods correctly (and assuming the blurbs tell you enough) it could work better, but you never know which combats you will be less-than-effective in.
Tonus 08-13-07, 02:15 PM	The problem with Beguiler is that there are almost no spells to interact with Undead, Constructs, etc. Very similar to a Rogue in that manner. But while a rogue can still attack (without sneak), a Beguiler is pretty much screwed. If your DM is kind you might be able to use a Minor Image or something to fool something, but hardly what I would call effective. If you pick your mods correctly (and assuming the blurbs tell you enough) it could work better, but you never know which combats you will be less-than-effective in. I don't think a beguiler would be any worse off than a rogue. You've got the same hit dice, the same light armor proficiency -- so you aren't taking any more risk moving into melee and using the aid another action than a rogue would. At high levels Use Magic Device will let you pack some scrolls/wands to deal with such situations better. And at low levels, packing a few vials of Alchemist Fire and Holy Water is probably a good idea.
Arvagor 08-13-07, 02:16 PM	I considered that (the issue of critters with illusion/enchantment resistances)... I think there's still potentially enough spells that allow him to fall back into pure support mode -- heck, there's always glitterdust ;)
cetiken 08-13-07, 02:22 PM	I think its a good idea and I'm considering it myself. I don't have my books handy at the moment, so I'm probably gona make a few wrong names of things. I like the idea of using the Practiced Metamagic (? RoD feat opend with kobald card) to with Shape Spell to adjust the areas of spells like Color Spray and Glitterdust without a change in spell level. Somthing like that is what I'd do. Though I think you'll be doing your party a disservice by not putting two of your many skill ranks into Search and Disable Device. That much I think you'll find is at least expected of you. And you'll probably want to invest in Bluff as well. Just in case feinting seems like a good idea.
Harliquinn 08-13-07, 02:28 PM	Keep in mind, undead are affected by: Figments, Glamers and Shadow spells (Illusions). From the Beguiler list, that includes: Blinding Color Surge Blur Crown of Veils Disguise Self Displacement Ghost Sound Invisibility Invisibility Sphere Greater Invisibility Mass Invisibility Legion of Sentinels Major Image Minor Image Mirror Image Mirror Image, Greater Misdirection Phantom Battle Project Image (M) Screen Seeming Shadow Walk Silence Silent Image Veil Zone of Silence
Arvagor 08-13-07, 02:34 PM	Though I think you'll be doing your party a disservice by not putting two of your many skill ranks into Search and Disable Device. That much I think you'll find is at least expected of you. And you'll probably want to invest in Bluff as well. Just in case feinting seems like a good idea. Well, I think that really depends on how you market yourself -- if you call yourself a sorcerer, focusing on illusion and enchantment because of your peaceful upbringing, then there should be no expectation of using rogue skills. It's the same situation clerics have -- are they a martial cleric or a healing cleric? Just make sure the party knows up front... As far as taking ranks in Bluff, that seems to be a given, what with the beguiler's Suprise Casting (Ex) ability...
Tonus 08-13-07, 02:56 PM	One thing to point out, as a Kobold beguiler you will need to look at encumbrance very carefully. Armored casting is great and all, but it really makes encumbrance a challenge. For example, a Str 4 Kobold has carrying capacity of 13 x .75 = 9.75. With small leather armor (7.5), small dagger (.5) and a spell component pouch (2) you're already into a medium load -- which kinda negates your mobility advantage. Consider putting a point or two into strength, or the Eschew Materials feat.
cetiken 08-13-07, 03:02 PM	Also, a few points in strength keep you from being what we in the BK like to call Shadow-bait. Of course your skill points are yours to assign, I just think you'll have plenty to do with what you want and still take care of traps.
Arvagor 08-13-07, 03:20 PM	Consider putting a point or two into strength, or the Eschew Materials feat.Eschew Materials would be a good choice -- I'm also considering the Dracolexi PrC class for him, and that's one of the pre-reqs. Preliminary starting stats are: Str 6, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 10. I suppose I could yank 2 points out of Wis or Cha to bump Str by two more (more likely Wis, since Bluff is Cha-based)... Maybe Beguiler through 8th, then finish out with Dracolexi?
cetiken 08-13-07, 07:18 PM	IIRC a Beguiler gets eschew materials and still spell as some point in their progression as bonus feats.
Arvagor 08-13-07, 07:49 PM	IIRC a Beguiler gets eschew materials and still spell as some point in their progression as bonus feats.Silent Spell at 5th, and Still Spell at 10th...
cetiken 08-14-07, 11:41 AM	I've just taken a look at he Dragonblood Sorcercer racial substitution levels and am currently of the opinion that those are what you actually may want more. Its a pretty cool set of optoins for spellcasting.
Fsi-Dib 08-16-07, 02:46 AM	A little reminder on Beguiler's spell list and how to use them against undeads and constructs. Most of these are mindless, so a mere silent image of a brick wall could stop zombies. They see a wall, I really really doubt they'd try to wonder through it, unless the DM is a real jerk. Also with Disguise Self, the kobold has better chances at being social to others.
Puggle Halfwine 08-16-07, 08:27 AM	Honestly, I thought that the Dragonblood Sorcerer alternate class features sucked. The first level one is ok, but I took Metamagic Specialist instead... Back on topic, I reckon that a beguiler kobold would definitely work. The vast amount of spells known will be a huge bonus.