Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hariman 09-21-07, 10:09 PM	Let's try this in the right forum this time: I just got a Kobold card from a friend and I've decided to play at least one, possibly 2 kobolds. The first kobold is my Greyhawk Ruins character. I'm currently torn between Rogue, bard or sorcerer/Dracolexi and Cleric/Singer of Concordance. Rogue is great, especially for trapfinding. Although a weakness against undead and other non-crittables could be a problem. Dracolexi is good on either Sorcerer or Bard, but I have my doubts about losing a caster level. (Especially on a sorcerer.) A bard would have Inspirational boost/bard song to toss in And Cleric/SofC is a damn good cleric build, but I'm not sure about playing a buffer/healer. The second kobold would be a replacement for my Rogue2/Wizard3. (You know, the character I've mentioned who has died 4 times. Even another player who is a sucker for the "tough build" bags on him.) I'd like to play a rogue-ish caster, but I'm currently unsure of the build that I should play (or the combat style). I'm leaning toward either Beguiler or an Unseen Seer build for this second kobold. I would probably take Wizard for an Unseen Seer build rather than sorcerer, because the caster level hit means less and wizards have Int Synergy. Also, I think scout is a little better for an unseen seer, because the damage is easier to get and Improved Skirmish can crank the damage up.. I know I've posted kobold builds before, but I'd like to hear everyone else's advice and opinions on the merits and weaknesses of the different possibilities. (Especially ways to lessen the caster level hit from an unseen seer build and ways to make rogues effective against undead WITHOUT multiclass or with multiclassing.) I'm not really looking for builds (unless you have new ones;) but I would like to hear any comparisons between options and ways to cover disadvantages of each option. Thanks in advance, Hariman PS: I don't ask much, do I?
jstorrie 09-22-07, 01:01 AM	Kobold works all right for the Scout 3 / Wiz 2 / Unseen Seer X Improved Skirmish build, if all you want is damage, but Rogue 1 / Wizard / Unseen Seer / Arcane Trickster is definitely what I'd rather see at my table–a pure toolbox. With their high AC and 30ft. speed, Kobolds would make fine Daring Outlaws, too, though they'd have to do Ftr4/Rog4/Swash5/PrC2 rather than Ftr4/Rog4/Swash7 thanks to their favoured class.
Sieylianna 09-22-07, 12:30 PM	I can't speak to your area, but local interest in Living Greyhawk, and play in the LG campaign has dropped significantly since the announcement of the campaign's demise. I expect this to get even worse once Winter Fantasy has passed and we've seen the preview of LFR and information trickles out on 4th edition. I wouldn't expect to be able to do anything meaningful with more than one PC unless you have an extremely active local group or can afford to travel a lot on your own. Ed
Timlagor 09-22-07, 05:37 PM	I'm expecting the people who play lots to want to finish out the campaign. We have 3 new people this month... I'm more concerned that LR may never start in the UK at all ...but then if it doesn't chances are I'll be one of the people who doesn't like it and we'll all play something better instead ;)
awroe 09-22-07, 05:57 PM	I'm more concerned that LR may never start in the UK at all ... I don't see why it shouldn't - most of the new people will not mind which campaign setting it is in, so we should be able to get one Oxford table at least. Of course new rulebooks might put some off. Depends on the quality of 4Ed I think
Hariman 09-22-07, 10:17 PM	I can't speak to your area, but local interest in Living Greyhawk, and play in the LG campaign has dropped significantly since the announcement of the campaign's demise. I expect this to get even worse once Winter Fantasy has passed and we've seen the preview of LFR and information trickles out on 4th edition. I wouldn't expect to be able to do anything meaningful with more than one PC unless you have an extremely active local group or can afford to travel a lot on your own. Ed I've noticed a sudden drop off on these LG boards that coincides with the death of 3.5 announcement. BUT: I will have 3 active characters. My sorcerer will level up to 5 for Red Hand of Doom. My original character (The rogue2/Wizard3) or his replacement. (That second level of rogue sucks.) And a Kobold for Greyhawk Ruins. (I'm not sure what he'll be yet. Beguiler and Singer of Concordance are two prime options.) But let's get back on topic: Which class would you choose between: Beguiler15 (Or Beguiler5/Dracolexi10) Or Rogue1/Specialist Wizard4/Unseen Seer2/Arcane Trickster8 And what weaknesses can you see each having? So far, I can see the Unseen Seer build falling behind in trapfinding and skills. But the beguiler would have a narrow focus for his spells and would lack damaging spells. (Save the Whelm spells. Which only do nonlethal damage.) Advantages the beguiler has are instant access to all of his spells known. (And advanced learning can help a little.) While the wizard has a greater number of spells known. Is there anything that I missed?
jstorrie 09-22-07, 10:36 PM	If you want to salvage that Rog2/Wiz3... just die once? Lose the level?
Morgen 09-22-07, 11:04 PM	Well if you combine the announcement that 3.5 is going to end and 4e is going to take over with LFR, and then combine it with the 0 TU thing, your going to have a sudden end to a lot of new character creation...
Hariman 09-22-07, 11:48 PM	If you want to salvage that Rog2/Wiz3... just die once? Lose the level? Rogue2 was his second level. You don't get to choose which level your character loses, it's the last level he gained. I'd have to die 4 times. (Or get level drained.) It's not feasible, especially with the amount of gold it would cost. No to mention the fact that I'd readjust his stats if I could. I've beaten my head against a wall trying to get him ahead, and I've only gotten killed by the tougher mods. The worst hit for him was a recent reincarnate that returned him to human after being halfling for a long while. The difference is startling. He immediately lost 2 off of his attack bonus and AC and 1 off of his saves. If I restart him now, I should be able to get him to a decent level by the end of the campaign. AND I can correct mistakes which would stay with him otherwise. Besides, how many characters introduce themselves by saying "I got killed again and was reincarnated into a kobold by an odd silver kobold druid."
Sieylianna 09-23-07, 09:19 AM	I've noticed a sudden drop off on these LG boards that coincides with the death of 3.5 announcement. BUT: I will have 3 active characters. My sorcerer will level up to 5 for Red Hand of Doom. My original character (The rogue2/Wizard3) or his replacement. (That second level of rogue sucks.) And a Kobold for Greyhawk Ruins. (I'm not sure what he'll be yet. Beguiler and Singer of Concordance are two prime options.) But let's get back on topic: Which class would you choose between: Beguiler15 (Or Beguiler5/Dracolexi10) Or Rogue1/Specialist Wizard4/Unseen Seer2/Arcane Trickster8 And what weaknesses can you see each having? So far, I can see the Unseen Seer build falling behind in trapfinding and skills. But the beguiler would have a narrow focus for his spells and would lack damaging spells. (Save the Whelm spells. Which only do nonlethal damage.) Advantages the beguiler has are instant access to all of his spells known. (And advanced learning can help a little.) While the wizard has a greater number of spells known. Is there anything that I missed? Four deaths for your rogue/wizard leads me to believe that your tactics may be lacking, so I wouldn't go that route. Plus unseen seer is better in most ways than arcane trickster. I'd go straight beguiler and keep telling your self that you're a wizard and stay out of combat. Ed
Hariman 09-23-07, 12:01 PM	Four deaths for your rogue/wizard leads me to believe that your tactics may be lacking, so I wouldn't go that route. Plus unseen seer is better in most ways than arcane trickster. I'd go straight beguiler and keep telling your self that you're a wizard and stay out of combat. Ed I started the character before Unseen Seer was published. And Unseen Seer/Spellwarp Sniper immediately became part of his build when they came out. But it looks like I'll play my sorcerer to get him to level 5 for Red Hand first.
Timlagor 09-25-07, 07:10 AM	My Rogue/Wizard from before US has retraining issues but fortunately Iknew better than to take Rogue 2 before 7th :P Even so there is something to be said for having Evasion. Try to find out what the other people you are likely to play CGR with are playing. I think Beguiler looks very cool (I'd go with the Int20,12Con, 16Dex GE myself). From what you say you might want to squeeze from Beguiler into US.
Hariman 09-25-07, 11:04 AM	My Rogue/Wizard from before US has retraining issues but fortunately Iknew better than to take Rogue 2 before 7th :P Even so there is something to be said for having Evasion. Try to find out what the other people you are likely to play CGR with are playing. I think Beguiler looks very cool (I'd go with the Int20,12Con, 16Dex GE myself). From what you say you might want to squeeze from Beguiler into US. Did I mention that that second rogue level was taken while that annoying "3rd level rule" was still in effect? Still, I KNOW how much of a mistake it was now. Beguiler/Unseen Seer is a poor match. You might get instant access to the beguiler spell list as spontaneous casting, but you gain very few spells that do damage and few offensive buffing spells to go into melee. You also suffer the same delayed spellcasting progression problems a sorcerer/unseen seer has. Even gaining Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation is limited. (Via Advanced Learning.) Beguiler/Dracolexi is a bit better of a fit, but still suffers from delayed casting. I wouldn't go for an 18 in INT for a beguiler. I'd go for: STR: 7 DEX: 16 CON: 12 INT: 17 WIS: 8 CHA: 8 Sure, STR, WIS and CHA aren't the best, but the Kobold won't be shadow bait and he'll be able to carry his own equipment. AND taking Spell Focus Enchantment or Illusion would make his DCs start at 14. (13 for his other spells.) Oddly enough, the exact same point buy would work for Rogue1/Wizard5/Unseen Seer2/Spellwarp Sniper5/Arcane Trickster 2 (The fifth level of wizard is optional, but if you do take 5 levels of wizard you free up some skill points for concentration and other skills and can take Metamagic School Focus and Empower Spell at level 6.) Actually, that doesn't look like such a bad set of ability scores. It's certainly better than frittering away a couple points here and there to get STR, WIS and CHA to ten. Hariman PS: Evasion only works if you MAKE THE SAVE. The Luckless Wonder of my rogue/wizard has died three of his four times by failed reflex saves. And that's his GOOD save. EDIT: I'm surprised that nobody noticed the mistake on the strength score. EDIT: Part Deux... That Rogue2/Conjurer3 is dead and gone. Well, he's retired now. Never to occupy the space within my file folder or be played again.