Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kinevon 03-12-08, 04:43 AM	Okay, I just recently got a kobold card, and am thinking about playing a kobold fighter as a cork, using a variant of the kobold monk cork. Stats (after racial adjustments): Str 10 Dex 20 Con 10 Int 10 Wis 8 Cha 8 Draconic Rite of Passage: Shield Armor: Studded Leather Feats: Combat Reflexes (6 AoOs) Weapon Finesse Primary weapon: Spiked Chain (gives him reach, and he hits better with it, even without EWP, than with any non-Finesse weapon with WP, and I think it is the only Finessed Reach weapon) He has only 8 skill points, and I am not sure how to spend them best. Balance, Listen, Spot, Tumble are all possibilities. Balance to, eventually, deal with Grease Listen & Spot to reduce the chance of being surprised Tumble to get on the backside of enemies, both distracting them from the real softies and providing the true damage dealers with flank quicker. Speak Language to learn Common? Arcane casters are somewhat rare in this neck of the woods, so speakers of Draconic may not be that common. :( Should I take different feats? Deadly Defense instead of Combat Reflexes or Vexing Flanker instead of Weapon Finesse, or even EWP: Spiked Chain instead of Combat Reflexes, for examples. One issue, that I can see already, is that he is not likely to be using the spiked chain to Trip opponents, not with a 10 strength. :( Any suggestions welcome.
_metz_ 03-12-08, 08:00 AM	This isn't really viable as a cork. 1. You need heavy armour/shields to cork REALLY well, (heavy armour, floaty shield, all things with max dex!) Dex alone doesn't cut it for AC, the ubiquitous mithral chain shirt is only +6 max dex, for a total of +10 AC, which is LESS than the +11 maximum from mithral full plate or heavy plate. Furthermore, As the shield will limit your max dex bonus, then you are losing out by almost 4 AC with just a +1 animated mithral heavy shield. Animated Mithral Tower shields are almost worth it too for dedicated corks. (Then you are missing out on 6 AC) Even with celestial armour Dex is not really worth it. Dex only wins out when you are caster that can buff as well as wear lightish armour (Spellswords/Twilight) 2. You are a kobold, everyone will just grapple or bullrush you if you are blocking them. Lets not forget you need to be able to do more than just cork, what if the monster is flying? it can avoid you, so you need to hit it and make it come after YOU. 3. Follow on from previous point: You produce no damage. At all. Why would the monster stay around to beat on you when they can wander off and smash something else? The key to an effective cork is to beat on the monster enough to keep it flailing at you, and often to regulate your AC so that they hit with one attack (primary) a round so they won't go eat the casters/someone else cos they completely miss you. 4. Corks do get hit, as mentioned above. Con 10 will get you killed. Even if its just by poison/other con drain goodness. 5. Knight works REALLY well with Cork. no 5 foot stepping for the win. 6. No power attack equals no damage. You can't dervish AND cork, too many feats and dervish is about producing damage rather than AC... additionally you don't do enough damage unarmed for monk, hence flurrying doesn't really work as an alternative... even with EWM and a spiked chain (small size + no str) I'm not trying to shoot you down, this character could work fine as a once off PC in a first level game. Its utterly ineffectual at higher levels though. The spiked chain is not so fantastic a weapon if you don't have proficiency and lack the strength to hit with it. Want a cork? play a dwarf or a human. I play a kobold fighter, its difficult, and you need those kobold fighter substitution levels. Dragon disciple works too.
Hariman 03-12-08, 11:02 PM	I recommend either playing a Kobold Fighter and decking him out in full plate/heavy shield. For a cork/damage dealer: You will need to spend a decent number of your kobold's build points getting strength to at least 11. (Take the level 2 and 4 kobold fighter levels, and the level 1 kobold fighter level if you think you can make spears work.) You will also NEED: 1:Power Attack. Period. The damage is a must for a kobold, who will otherwise be a joke. 2: A good weapon. I recommend either x3 or x4 crit, or an 18 to 20 or 19 to 20 threat range. 3: Weapon Focus/specialization/mastery. The damage is invaluable. 4: An increase in your strength score. Taking one level of barbarian might be worth it. (Kobold fighter sub level 4 helps here.) I recommend taking the 4 levels of fighter 1st though. Taking Power Attack at level 1 will free up your level 6 feat for weapon specialization. (you need to buy a 17 str to get the 13 str needed for power attack.) And, of course, all stat bumps go into STR. Just keep some alchemist's fire, holy water and acid flasks handy for high AC opponents. Also, invest in good armor, as you'll not have quite as many hit points as other fighters. I hope this helps. Hariman PS: Kobold Fighter or Barbarian is a very hard road. Kobold Monk is just silly. (Sorry, I have to be honest.) I recommend a cleric of Io with the Strength domain and another domain of your choice, as clerics can use buffing to make up for a kobold's weaknesses. PPS: Kobold Rogue is more viable than a kobold fighter. You can either specialize in finding traps (which a kobold can do better than most others, just take the sub levels and spend the single skill point a level in Craft: Trapmaking to get a +4 to trapfinding/disabling by level 3! That bonus jumps to +6 at level 8 too.) You can also spend a few feats on TWF and Weapon Finesse to increase damage, you just can't take hits like the fighters can.
_metz_ 03-13-08, 12:22 AM	I recommend either playing a Kobold Fighter and decking him out in full plate/heavy shield. For a cork/damage dealer: You will need to spend a decent number of your kobold's build points getting strength to at least 11. (Take the level 2 and 4 kobold fighter levels, and the level 1 kobold fighter level if you think you can make spears work.) You will also NEED: 1:Power Attack. Period. The damage is a must for a kobold, who will otherwise be a joke. 2: A good weapon. I recommend either x3 or x4 crit, or an 18 to 20 or 19 to 20 threat range. 3: Weapon Focus/specialization/mastery. The damage is invaluable. 4: An increase in your strength score. Taking one level of barbarian might be worth it. (Kobold fighter sub level 4 helps here.) I recommend taking the 4 levels of fighter 1st though. Taking Power Attack at level 1 will free up your level 6 feat for weapon specialization. (you need to buy a 17 str to get the 13 str needed for power attack.) And, of course, all stat bumps go into STR. Just keep some alchemist's fire, holy water and acid flasks handy for high AC opponents. Also, invest in good armor, as you'll not have quite as many hit points as other fighters. I hope this helps. Hariman A Kobold Barbarian really gets in trouble, its the favoured class sorceror that screws you. Let me dig up my kobold build... (22 natural strength at level 12!) Here it is: I REALLY wanted to keep the wings, as to me that was the whole point of playing a kobold. Stats: Str: 13 (17) Dex: 14 (12) Con: 12 (6) Int: (10) Wis: 8 Cha: 11 Lv1(Fighter)Dragon Wings, Weapon Focus (some decent weapon at small size, possibly Greatsword) Lv2(Kobold Fighter)+2 CON Lv3(Fighter)Power Attack* Lv4(Kobold Fighter)+2 STR, +1 STR <now am Str 16> Lv5(Fighter) Lv6(Fighter)Improved Dragon Wings, Weapon Specialisation Lv7(Sorceror) Lv8(Dragon Disciple) +1 STR Lv9(Dragon Disciple) +2 Str Improved Bullrush Lv10(Dragon Disciple) Lv11(Dragon Disciple) +2 Str Lv12(Fighter)Melee Weapon Mastery +1 STR <now am Str 22 naturally> Lv13(Fighter) Shocktrooper Lv14(Fighter) Lv15(Fighter) Improved Flight, Improved Critical: Greatsword The build assumes mithral Breastplate, so I can fly with the bugger. WITHOUT ITEMS I am Str 16 at lvl 4, Str 22 at level 12. Also am Con 14. I like this build as it will be useful at low levels, and gets good after level 4. (when it starts to matter) Its not optimised, but hey, I want wings, and am a Kobold :) There is also the heedless diving charage build with the flying Kobold, that also works alright. A variant on this is the flyby attacking kobold with spear focus. it can work quite well.
kinevon 03-13-08, 08:35 AM	Well, every time I turn around, the build changes. Which is NOT a good idea, really, since I am planning on playing him this Saturday in an Intro mod. Current build plan is Marshal/Sorceror. Okay, it started as a more-or-less standard Sorceror, high Dex and Cha, but whenever I see a high Charisma, I always get tempted to make quick use of it as a Marshal. Those minor auras can get sick, really. And, of course, a high Dex always tempts me toward Rogue, which might not be a bad idea for a Kobold... I just wish that HeroForge dealt with the Dragonborn and Kobold substitution levels better, so I could just flip a switch to see how they affect different builds... Some of the substitution levels look interesting, others are not worth the paper they're printed on (like the Kobold Fighter first level, not enough gain for the payment, IMO). QWuestion. I know that the Dispel Confusion article dealt with the TU and gold cost of the Draconic Rite of Passage, but is there a possibility of buying it, at full cost, as part of the character build? Monks don't get enough starting gold to pay for it, but some of the other classes do.
_metz_ 03-13-08, 08:42 AM	Some of the substitution levels look interesting, others are not worth the paper they're printed on (like the Kobold Fighter first level, not enough gain for the payment, IMO). Can be very useful actually. Dodge is an irritating suboptimal feat that you need for many PrCs. If you can deal with a spear as a weapon (longspears aren't bad when you are flying about...) Than you are ahead by a whole feat. Its actually not that bad at all, I almost did it, but I didn't want to use a spear.
kinevon 03-13-08, 08:56 AM	Can be very useful actually. Dodge is an irritating suboptimal feat that you need for many PrCs. If you can deal with a spear as a weapon (longspears aren't bad when you are flying about...) Than you are ahead by a whole feat. Its actually not that bad at all, I almost did it, but I didn't want to use a spear. Every time I count it, it always comes up one short. Lose three feats: the bonus feat, and medium & heavy armor proficiencies; gain two feats: dodge and effective weapon focus in spear-class weapons. Maybe that should be considered three feats, but they tend to be mutually exclusive... To be honest, in my opinion, the only way to make a reach weapon worth much time is either with a spiked chain, or the short haft feat. Otherwise, you leave yourself open to all sorts of nasty negatives if your opponent can get into adjacency with you.
_metz_ 03-13-08, 09:55 AM	Every time I count it, it always comes up one short. Lose three feats: the bonus feat, and medium & heavy armor proficiencies; gain two feats: dodge and effective weapon focus in spear-class weapons. Maybe that should be considered three feats, but they tend to be mutually exclusive... To be honest, in my opinion, the only way to make a reach weapon worth much time is either with a spiked chain, or the short haft feat. Otherwise, you leave yourself open to all sorts of nasty negatives if your opponent can get into adjacency with you. View it on a level by level basis. Fighter 1: feat versus two feats, dodge and spear focus Fighter 2 1 feat versus +2 con Fighter three NOTHING here you take normal fighter - there are your proficiencies! Fighter4 1 feat versus +2 strength. I am not sure how you are coming up short. As I said, its a decent option. +2 Str and +2 con are morth MORE than 2 feats really. For a Kobold fighter its invaluable.
kinevon 03-13-08, 04:49 PM	View it on a level by level basis. Fighter 1: feat versus two feats, dodge and spear focus Fighter 2 1 feat versus +2 con Fighter three NOTHING here you take normal fighter - there are your proficiencies! Fighter4 1 feat versus +2 strength. I am not sure how you are coming up short. As I said, its a decent option. +2 Str and +2 con are morth MORE than 2 feats really. For a Kobold fighter its invaluable. I am purely talking about the first level substitution, where you are giving up THREE feats, the bonus feat AND both Medium & Heavy armor proficiencies for TWO feats, Dodge and Spear focus. Not, IMO, a really equitable trade. I have no real argument with the value of the stat bumps available at levels 2 & 4, even if I regret losing the normal fighter bonus feats at those levels. It is mainly having to give up BOTH the bonus feat AND the armor proficiencies for two much less than useful feats that I wouldn't do. Then again, other than for flanking, aid another and setting versus charges, spears just aren't a very good weapon, even the longspear. Current version: Str 8 (-1) Dex 16 (+3) Con 10 (+0) Int 12(+1) Wis 8 (-1) Cha 16 (+3) Class: Marshal Feat: Negotiator, but I am still thinking about that. Dragon wings, of course, would be amusing. A shame that Marshal is a 3/4 BAB class, so weapon finesse isn't an early choice. Aura: Master of Tactics (+3 damage when flanking) Weaponry: Shortbow (to be upgraded later when more money comes avalable) Longspear (allows support functions, including potential flanking without having to stand next to opponent) AC 18 normally, 22 if he can use Shield from a Draconic Rite of Passage, bump up if he is fighting defensively. Languages: Common, Draconic - has to take Common to make best use of the Marshal aura(s), since it is a result of talking at your allies. It would be more amusing, in some ways, to have communication issues with most party members... The low Str leaves him vulnerable to grappling and bull rush, but he is not going to be the optimal choice for any opponent to choose as a primary target, since he isn't going to be the big, bad damage fighter-type. Possible options: Drop Cha to 15, to add 2 points to another stat (besides Dex), possibly Int to make Warmage a better option instead of Sorceror, or Str to up his carrying capacity and remove the damage/to hit penalty. Sorry for the rambling and wishy-washness. ;)
Timlagor 03-17-08, 10:04 AM	If you lose proficiencies by taking the Fighter Sub level I'm not at all convinced that you get them back just by taking another level of fighter. Nice though Marshal Auras are I wouldn't even consider giving up a spell level for one (not even the Dex one).
magebeast 03-17-08, 01:38 PM	Nice though Marshal Auras are I wouldn't even consider giving up a spell level for one (not even the Dex one). This. A wizard can afford to give up one spell level in his progression, but a sorcerer needs every precious spell level from 1 to 15. I guess you could conceivably give up a level 15 spell level, but those first 14 levels are key.
UMiskatonic 03-17-08, 02:37 PM	Kobold Sorceror/Marshal How about this.... Kobold sorceror 1-6/marshal 1/eldritch knight 8 You'll end up with a good BAB, and with size and dex modifiers, you'll be a fantastic orb/ray specialist. The other nice thing about that, is that you'll be handy with a flask of alchemist's fire or thrown dagger, just in case. And for a build like this, I think the spell penetration aura is outstanding.
kinevon 03-17-08, 02:53 PM	What about a kobold Marshal/Warmage? Downside would be that I would have to keep the two classes close together in levels, or suffer an XP penalty, but it offers a bit better defense, while allowing, like a Sorceror, the ability to pick the spell used on the fly. Would there be a useful PrC, like Eldritch Knight, that would work with it? Then again, this kobold character probably wouldn't get much play anyhow, I would still be concentrating more on my highest level character for as much of my play as possible... We won't even go into how badly designed, and weirdly built, he is.
UMiskatonic 03-17-08, 08:15 PM	Well, since Marshals get all armor and all weapons, Eldritch Knight is exactly what you want. Of Course, you can cram in levels of spell sword, or Ruathar if you find access. I have trouble seeing a kobold ruathar, but who knows..... Why does an experience point penalty matter? Generally, you play at your level, so it doesn't matter overly much. You'll get to play the kobold longer, but that's irrelevant as well, since the campaign is ending.
kinevon 03-18-08, 02:16 AM	Why does an experience point penalty matter? Generally, you play at your level, so it doesn't matter overly much. You'll get to play the kobold longer, but that's irrelevant as well, since the campaign is ending. Because I am lazy, so calculating the penalty amount would take more effort. ;) Yeah, I doubt I will ever get much play from this kobold, since I am mainly concentrating on my level 5 human, who is my highestlevel character.
UMiskatonic 03-18-08, 11:32 AM	Well, the penalty only sets in once the levels are too far apart. So, play on, you'll have three levels of fun, at least. Oh, and I bet that's a reason to go Marshal/Sorceror and not Marshal/Warmage. I'll bet the favored class for Kobold is sorceror. Don't have Races of the Dragon, though.
Timlagor 03-19-08, 09:25 AM	What about a kobold Marshal/Warmage? Yep... you've found something worse than Sorc/Mar1. Warmages do not play well with other classes. The loss of spell levels for them massively outweighs any Marshal benefits. With a Sorceror you can do something like an Eldritch Knight and squeeze the synergies to make up for the lost BAB/Spells. but Warmages simply don't synergise: if it doesn't make you do more damage with your spells then it's a wasted level. If you take levels in different classes where your choice in combat is: use an ability from Class A or use an ability from Class B then you are pretty much guaranteed to be underpowered. The one thing that can be made to work fairly well with Warmages is some Rogue since the Sneak Attack can be applies to your RaToSpells and you'll always have the right one of those for the enemy ...but even then your straight Warmage will probably be better. EDIT: Disclaimer: this doesn't mean you can't make a viable character for LG who will make a reasonable contribution at-APL but you will definitely not be optimal and shouldn't do so thinking you are making your character more powerful; more versatile resilienty or interesting perhaps but not more powerful
kinevon 03-19-08, 07:47 PM	1) Eldritch Knight is not Open, and I haven't seen access to it in my region. 2) You apparently don't understand Marshal Auras. It is not a choice of use a Warmage spell or use a Marshal Aura. It is "Start the Aura when you wake up", sort of like something from Popeil, set it and forget it. And look at some of the auras. Master of Tactics is very nasty, and adds damage to everyone's attacks, IF they can get flank on their opponent. And, in my experience, going for flank seems to be a very common preoccupation of most everyone, especially any Rogues. With a 16 Charisma, that is +3 damage for everyone in the party who gets a flanking attack. Marshal gives more weapons the character can use, and effectively reduces the extra feat cost for Battle Caster, since a Marshal is proficient in all types of armor. Even one of the major auras can be useful. Motivate Ardor adds to damage, or Steady Hand gives a bonus to hit for ranged attacks, which should include ranged touch attacks... And don't forget Practiced Spellcaster, which is Open...
JamesMaissen 03-19-08, 10:57 PM	1) Eldritch Knight is not Open, and I haven't seen access to it in my region. 2) You apparently don't understand Marshal Auras. Umm.. 1) is too? 2) I think he does understand them. What you are missing is that a warmage needs to be dropping top level spells when giving his best shot. Give him a level like marshal, which gives a nice bonus to the party and he's effectively a level lower as far as his warmage actions go. There is no synergy there. He's very right that warmages don't multiclass well. They are a very good stand alone class. The only PrCs I would advise with them are full +casting ones. Meanwhile marshal is a class that's great to have at the table... preferably those levels are on someone else however as they don't really advance your direct abilities by being yours rather than someone else's. The only caster that makes a decent marshal dip is the sublime cord imho. A bard9/marshal1/sublimecord2+ makes a decent bard support caster, but it is a tradeoff for other PrC dips there (mindbender early on for example) as 13th level is normally a long way off. Now you can make a decent 'light fighter' with a few marshal levels. The BAB hit is annoying but you can survive essentially NPC aristocrat levels if you optimize the rest and work the CHA investment into the rest of the levels. A Paladin/Marshal working CHA based smites (picking up outcast champion levels as well most likely) can make a decent secondary fighter while giving the party the marshal nice bonuses. I had plans for a Rog1/Marshal1/Ftr1/Pal2/OutcastChamp5 build before LG announced it was ending (motivating Will saves and going with 2 tied saves on a smite sneak attack). -James
kinevon 03-19-08, 11:20 PM	Umm.. 1) is too? 2) I think he does understand them. What you are missing is that a warmage needs to be dropping top level spells when giving his best shot. Give him a level like marshal, which gives a nice bonus to the party and he's effectively a level lower as far as his warmage actions go. 1) Earth Dreamer (RS) Elemental Savant (CAr) Enlightened Fist (CAr) Exemplar (CAd) Am I misreading something in that list? That is from the last page, listing open PrCs, in the 7.5 LGCS document. Doesn't look like Eldritch Knight is Open. NoNc, since it isn't in the Closed PrC list, at least. 2) Why? Aren't high level spells the province of the pure Wizard, who gets more of them? Then again, it may just be my basic problem with spellcasters, who always seem so useless at low levels. Then again, it may also be that the most useful Warmage spell, at least at first, is going to be a 0th level spell, Disrupt Undead...
magebeast 03-20-08, 12:03 AM	Prepare for a mega burn my novice friend. "All base classes, prestige classes, feats, spells, and domains from the core rulebooks (PH, DMG, MM) are considered Open unless specifically noted otherwise in this appendix." Do you happen to know which book the Eldritch Knight comes from? P.S. Warmage edge makes magic missile a pretty cool spell
kinevon 03-20-08, 01:42 AM	Prepare for a mega burn my novice friend. "All base classes, prestige classes, feats, spells, and domains from the core rulebooks (PH, DMG, MM) are considered Open unless specifically noted otherwise in this appendix." Do you happen to know which book the Eldritch Knight comes from? P.S. Warmage edge makes magic missile a pretty cool spell See? That's why I was asking for advice. I must have missed all the DMG PrCs, then. Last time I looked, they all seemed rather mookie. And on the Magic Missile thing, remember that the Warmage Edge only affects a single missile's damage, no matter how many missiles you get. So, at 9th level, you still only get 1 d4 + 1 + Int Mod missile, and 4 d4 +1 missiles, not that much more effective than a Wizard or Sorceror at the same level... But it is why Disrupt Undead becomes worthwhile for a Warmage at low level, when that extra damage can mean destroying the skeleton/zombie with a single cantrip...
magebeast 03-20-08, 02:16 AM	And on the Magic Missile thing, remember that the Warmage Edge only affects a single missile's damage, no matter how many missiles you get. So, at 9th level, you still only get 1 d4 + 1 + Int Mod missile, and 4 d4 +1 missiles, not that much more effective than a Wizard or Sorceror at the same level... I meant at low levels, which is what we were talking about. At 1st level a 14 int warmage has 3 1d4+3 magic missiles and 5 1d3+2 acid splashes or what have you, assuming no bonus spells. Probably you'll get four of those magic missiles. That's damage that can't miss (at least the missiles are), which is actually pretty good. I mean yeah, you'll be doing some pretty good damage against undead, 1d6+2, but the magic missiles have the same average damage and you don't have to hit with them. PS. The "megaburn" thing was in good fun I hope you didn't take offense.
kinevon 03-20-08, 04:45 AM	PS. The "megaburn" thing was in good fun I hope you didn't take offense. No offense taken . I just have trouble remembering the DMG PrCs, since I tend to prefer playing fighter-types instead of spellcasters. I is a simple mind. After all, how often do you see a 16th level Warmage start a combat by casting Tenser's Transformation? Sigh. I need to play with some starting mages, I guess.
twells 03-20-08, 04:52 AM	2) Why? Aren't high level spells the province of the pure Wizard, who gets more of them? Then again, it may just be my basic problem with spellcasters, who always seem so useless at low levels. Then again, it may also be that the most useful Warmage spell, at least at first, is going to be a 0th level spell, Disrupt Undead... In my humble playing experience, even though wizards have a higher spell levels available earlier, they don't have many of them and cannot prep them on the fly. This means that only sorcerer's and warmages can do the silly thing of dropping multiples of their top-level tiered spell on an enemy just to make it "stick" or prove a point. A level loss for a wizards is tragic, but recoverable if the multiclass gains very ultra-cool benefits (war weaver or any of the gish builds come to mind). But a level loss for a sorcerer or warmage permanently nerfs the character development as a caster, and they will not be able to keep up with expectations for any givien APL. Just my two coppers ....
Timlagor 03-20-08, 10:48 AM	Disclaimer: obviously I'm talking entirely from a power-building perspective. This doesn't mean that I don't appreciate roleplaying or making build/character choices based on what suits a character rather than the most powerful option... it's just that that's not what we're talking about at this point: it's not really something you can argue about. 2) Why? Aren't high level spells the province of the pure Wizard, who gets more of them? Warmages do damage. That's all they do and they can do it very well but it is critical to get the highest possible level slots to do the most damage possible (making liberal use of Metamagic to 'break the 1d6/level cap'). I think you're just going to have to take our word for it that the best way to increase a Warmage's damage output is to get higher level spell slots. (though as I said there is some mileage in a careful use of Rogue or Scout ..I believe they're not as good but the skills are nice and they aren't that far behind -haven't actually tried them out myself but there are too many times you can't get your bonus damage) I do understand Marshal Auras but was speaking more generally about warmages. It's true that the auras are always on but you can only have one minor aura active at a time and it's not going to be worth the sacrifice in damage output. Wizards on the other hand are at their most powerful when they don't do damage. Wizards should aim to cripple the enemy's ability to act effectively ..and I mean all the enemies. Blasting is a last resort (though still an essential ability to have in reserve). So yes utility and buff spells belong to the Wizard or Sorceror -think of Warmages more as archers who happen to do it with magic. They really are one-dimensional damage dealers and the moment you try to spread their portfolio you are probably better off not building a warmage. Then again, it may just be my basic problem with spellcasters, who always seem so useless at low levels. Ouch! You really need to see a good Wizard in action. I never felt remotely underpowered with mine ..and I didn't even use a lot of scrolls -I'd use more if I was doing it again but with 20Int (and even 16 works though I'd look more to the buffs then) you have a very good chance of taking multiple enemies out of combat with Sleep or Colour Spray. Grease or Distract Assailant can let the Rogue sneak attack (and Grease may leave them prone for those beautiful -4s) ..MM just doesn't compare (usually) in terms of turning the tide of battle in those crucial first rounds. War Weaver is a casting PrC that is worth giving up a spell level for in terms of power alone (obviously this doesn't apply to Warmages). It just is ...and I can't think of any others ('combo' PrCs like ATrickster and Spellsword are in a slightly different category).
TetsujinOni 03-20-08, 11:10 AM	War Weaver is a casting PrC that is worth giving up a spell level for in terms of power alone (obviously this doesn't apply to Warmages). It just is ...and I can't think of any others ('combo' PrCs like ATrickster and Spellsword are in a slightly different category). Fatespinner 5 *might* be possible to sell as belonging in this list, as well. I thought I was going into war weaver, but it just doesn't seem to be as good a choice as getting 8th level slots at 15. I don't want to deal with transmuter slots and sorcerer spell progression.
JamesMaissen 03-20-08, 01:57 PM	Warmages do damage. That's all they do and they can do it very well but it is critical to get the highest possible level slots to do the most damage possible (making liberal use of Metamagic to 'break the 1d6/level cap'). A small nitpick here: Warmages also have some nice battlefield control spells. Likewise Warmages should come with Empower spell. Sometimes a lower level spell empowered can deal the most damage to a given target. But regardless you are right that the warmages' bread and butter is dropping down damage. I disagree with the rogue/scout did for warmages as I think even that doesn't work well for them. It comes somewhat close, but falls short. -James
magebeast 03-20-08, 01:58 PM	Fatespinner 5 *might* be possible to sell as belonging in this list, as well. That's a tough sell with the HD limit, and the fact that so many creatures at high level get more than one HD per CR.
UMiskatonic 03-20-08, 04:58 PM	I think we might need to reframe the debate.... The question is not "is a marshal aura worth having?" I think everyone would happily take one, if they were free. I think the questions is "Is a marshal aura worth a caster level?" To answer that, you'll have to compare Marshal 1/Warmage 5 with Warmage 6. The Marshal will allow everyone who is flanking to do extra damage. The Warmage will do an extra d6 with fireballs, lightning bolts, and have more spells, and higher level spells. Overall, I think the warmage build is a stronger one. Now, there's an argument to be made for practiced spellcaster, it's true. But, if you're a straight spellcaster, you don't need it, which means you can take Empower Spell, or Craft Arms and Armor. So, it's a tradeoff. If you still like marshal, we'll have to agree to disagree.
JamesMaissen 03-21-08, 01:57 AM	Now, there's an argument to be made for practiced spellcaster, it's true. Practiced caster doesn't do the whole job. The warmage done right can almost always drop down a top level spell to deal damage. Either directly or by empowering a spell. Practiced caster doesn't help there. -James
Timlagor 03-21-08, 01:36 PM	Fatespinner 5 *might* be possible to sell as belonging in this list, as well. I thought I was going into war weaver, but it just doesn't seem to be as good a choice as getting 8th level slots at 15. I don't want to deal with transmuter slots and sorcerer spell progression. Fatespinner 5 is not even close to nearly worth taking. If Seal Fate worked on things with more HD than you then it would be arguable but still unclear. As it is... forget it. War Weaver is well worth those 8th level spells if you can get in early enough; not sure it would be worth going in at 12th (for example) in LG but if you can take it around 6th it's a 'no brainer' in terms of power. Especially so for Wizards who can prep a greater variety of spells to pump through it. Try thinking of it in terms of the effective spell levels the Weave gives you: you get Free Chain on spells that are otherwise illegal to Chain! You also get better-than-Quicken from the Quiescent Weave. [I agree that Straight Warmage is better than Rogue/Scout versions -the value of those skills is going to be highly party dependent- but they are strong enough for an honourable mention :)]
kinevon 03-21-08, 02:04 PM	Okay, let's just drop all my current build ideas. I admit to confusion. You don't even want to think about my current human fighter build... So, instead, how about some kobold build ideas for me. I just recently got access to the card, and may never get to play this character. Some things about me: I tend to go for the simple (initially) fighter-types. I sometimes get confused or just plain forget about spellcasting for gish-types. (warmages and duskblades, for example) I prefer to get all stats up high enough to at least get no penalties for things like saving throws. Common will be optional for this kobold, so a high enough Int for additional languages is not required. So, suggestions for stats and class(es), whether or not (if applicable) the dragonblood or kobold substitution levels are worthwhile, or if some of the levels are and others aren't. Also,any ideas for PrC destination, unlikely as it is. ;)
UMiskatonic 03-21-08, 03:01 PM	I'd post that last one as the beginning of a new thread...
kinevon 03-21-08, 10:26 PM	I'd post that last one as the beginning of a new thread... Good idea.