Post/Author/DateTime	Post
_metz_ 09-06-07, 12:57 PM	Hey all, I have been assigned the (somewhat unenviable task) of being the player who has to take the hit and play the NON cleric/Sorceror/Rogue Kobold. That means that I am actually making a Kobold Fighter. (Sigh) We have decided that the group needs one, and I kinda got stuck with it. (I blame the gnomes) Hence, I was wondering what builds you guys thought would be effective to have an actually reasonable Kobold Damage Producer for the party. I was thinking a Dragon Disciple/kobold Fighter Barbarian would be a good way to offset the strength issues, but I hate experience penalties. Does anyone have a viable build?
Jay_Ibero_911 09-06-07, 01:36 PM	Hey all, I have been assigned the (somewhat unenviable task) of being the player who has to take the hit and play the NON cleric/Sorceror/Rogue Kobold. That means that I am actually making a Kobold Fighter. (Sigh) We have decided that the group needs one, and I kinda got stuck with it. (I blame the gnomes) Hence, I was wondering what builds you guys thought would be effective to have an actually reasonable Kobold Damage Producer for the party. I was thinking a Dragon Disciple/kobold Fighter Barbarian would be a good way to offset the strength issues, but I hate experience penalties. Does anyone have a viable build? Kobold Fighters are AWESOME dude. You just need the right feats to take advantage of their power. Race:Kobold Alignment: STR-17 (13)-4 DEX-14 (6)+2 CON-14 (6)-2 INT-10 (2) WIS-9 (1) CHA-8 (0) Lv1(Kobold Fighter)Dragon Wings, Spear Focus, Dodge Lv2(Kobold Fighter)+2 CON Lv3(Fighter)Power Attack* Lv4(Kobold Fighter)+2 STR, +1 STR Lv5(Fighter) Lv6(Fighter)Improved Dragon Wings, Improved Bull Rush* Lv7(Fighter) Lv8(Fighter)Shock Trooper*, +1 STR Lv9(Fighter)Improved Flight Lv10(Fighter)Improved Sunder* Lv11(Fighter) Lv12(Fighter)Weapon Specialization (Long Spear), Combat Brute*, +1 STR Lv13(Fighter) Lv14(Fighter)Melee Weapon Mastery (Piercing)* Lv15(Fighter)Greater Weapon Focus 8th level onward your damage really ramps up with heedless diving charge. First round of combat you double move fly up, second round you heedless diving charge down for 32 points of damage from power attack alone. 12th level you get to follow up your heedless diving charges with momentum swings.
KarmaInferno 09-06-07, 04:24 PM	Er, that's two rounds to do an extra 32 points of damage. A min-maxed regular melee PC might be doing a hair less, but would have been doing it twice. By 12th+ level I see melee guys doing sometimes 150-200+ damage a round, without any fancy charges. -karma
Jay_Ibero_911 09-06-07, 05:53 PM	Er, that's two rounds to do an extra 32 points of damage. A min-maxed regular melee PC might be doing a hair less, but would have been doing it twice. By 12th+ level I see melee guys doing sometimes 150-200+ damage a round, without any fancy charges. -karma Yeah, but this is about the best you can do with a KOBOLD. No way at all to do reliable damage if you don't capitalize on the diving charge potential, unless you go the mounted combat route which is essetially the same thing. You can try Fighter 4/Barb3/Exotic Weapon Master1/Sorc1/DD6 and be all right too I guess.
_metz_ 09-07-07, 04:29 AM	Hmm, Anyway I look at it, there isn't really a way to get Barbarian into the build... This annoys me a little. I really don't like the idea of the diving charge only. It takes two rounds to set up and can be easily defeated by so many things. Maybe a Monk/Sorceror Dragon Disciple Enlightened fist... I need to crunch some numbers. I find one trick ponies too boring to play, and definitely easy to be taken out. (Two rounds to do 32 damage is really not that great at APL 8-10)
Puggle Halfwine 09-07-07, 05:02 AM	As someone who plays a halfling fighter, I can safely say that the kobold's disadvantages can be turned right around to make a 'broken' character. Use a longspear for best effect. Allow me to demonstrate: 1st - Kobold Fighter Dodge, Spear Focus, Improved Toughness 2nd - Kobold Fighter Strength boost 3rd Fighter Power Attack 4th Fighter Weapon Specialization (Longspear) 5th Fighter 6th Fighter Cleave Mobility 7th Fighter 8th Fighter Improved Critical (Longspear) 9th Fighter etc... Your small size means you can power attack for one more, cancelling out almost all of your strength penalty when combined with the bonus strength you get from your class. That's why my fighter usually power attacks for three instead of two. Your high dex, small size and natural armour mean you'll have a pretty damn high armour class with mithral full plate and dodge. With your high base move, you'll be able to wear it too (unlike many other small-sized fighters).
_metz_ 09-07-07, 11:04 AM	hmmm what do people think of this build? STR-13 DEX-16 CON-12 INT-10 WIS-9 CHA-8 Lv1(Kobold Fighter)Dragon Wings, Spear Focus, Dodge Lv2(Kobold Fighter)+2 CON Lv3(Fighter)Power Attack* Lv4(Kobold Fighter)+2 STR, +1 STR Lv5(Fighter) Lv6(Fighter)Improved Dragon Wings, True Believer Lv7(PT) *mettle Lv8(PT) +1 STR Lv9(PT) Weapon Spec* Melee Weapon Mastery, Piercing Lv10(PT) *Improved Bullrush Lv11(Fighter) Lv12(Fighter) shock trooper (Long Spear), Improved Flight*, +1 STR Lv13(Fighter) Lv14(Fighter) Combat Brute Lv15(Fighter) Greater Weapon Focus In this build, I hold off on the silly diving charging, and act more like a normal fighter. THis allows some more flexibility UNTIL level 8. (as this is a greyhawk ruins character, that is a really crucial element to the build)
jstorrie 09-07-07, 04:21 PM	I'm unclear as to how you're starting 17 Strength despite the -4 racial penalty. Or are those your stats at 15? Kobolds make fine Dex fighters–Daring Outlaw works pretty well. If you feat or Dragon Disciple into getting claw attacks, and can pick up dr/magic from a feat or class feature, your natural attacks should pierce dr/magic... though I'm not sure that focusing on claws is a great idea. TWF with Deadly Defense, WSpec/Mastery, Finesse and Sneak Attack (so a modified Ftr4-Daring Outlaw build–Rogue4/Ftr4/Swash5/PrC 6) and a pair of light weapons would do very well, and you'd have the AC and HP to tank.
Hariman 09-07-07, 08:51 PM	Well, fighter 4/sorcerer1/dragon disciple10 net's you +10 STR and no con penalty, Spear Focus, Weapon Specialization Longspear, Weapon Mastery Piercing (+3/+4 to attack and damage, it will help a LOT), Wings at high levels without feats, blindsense, and a decent number of feats to dedicate to Power Attack and other such feats. If you take Fist of Stone and Enlarge Person you can offset the low attack bonus at level 2 (Fighter at first level for the extra HP) by precasting Fist of Stone, if possible. And Enlarge Person will either boost you Kobold's or someone else's damage. True Strike is a good alternative to Fist of Stone. Alternatively, Fighter4/Sorcerer1/Dragon Disciple4/Fighter6 nets you even more BAB and fighter bonus feats. Hexblade5 loses AC to the limitation of light armor (or medium mithral armor), but dovetails nicely into Dragon Disciple, with no BAB loss. Alternatively, a Swashbuckler with a Spiked Chain and weapon finesse can power attack pretty well. An ultra high Dex is a must. And Metz, your build looks pretty good, but you're confusing people by not adding the racial adjustments to the ability scores at the top. Most people expect to see racial adjustments factored in when a build is posted.
Mommy was an Orc 09-07-07, 09:26 PM	Lv1(Kobold Fighter)Dragon Wings, Spear Focus, Dodge I'm not in love with Kobold Fighter, as I think it conflicts with itself. Dodge is really only a good feat if you've got feats to burn for Elusive Target. You get Weapon Focus in a weapon that conflicts with Weapon Finesse. And then you lose the feats for Kobold Fighter 2/4. Combine that with Dragon Wings/Improved Dragon Wings, and a Kobold Fighter ought to be desperate for feats. And that's in the context that you took enough levels of Kobold Fighter so as to make Barbarian extremely difficult without an XP penalty. I'd look at some variant of Daring Outlaw Rogue/Swashbuckler who does a Spiked Chain routine.
_metz_ 09-07-07, 10:38 PM	I'm not in love with Kobold Fighter, as I think it conflicts with itself. Dodge is really only a good feat if you've got feats to burn for Elusive Target. You get Weapon Focus in a weapon that conflicts with Weapon Finesse. And then you lose the feats for Kobold Fighter 2/4. Combine that with Dragon Wings/Improved Dragon Wings, and a Kobold Fighter ought to be desperate for feats. And that's in the context that you took enough levels of Kobold Fighter so as to make Barbarian extremely difficult without an XP penalty. I'd look at some variant of Daring Outlaw Rogue/Swashbuckler who does a Spiked Chain routine. I totally agree on all points. Thats why I am pulling my hair out. (The spear focus was purely for the longspear for diving charges...) However, I need to ensure the character doesn't rely on sneak attack for damage. I suppose a finessing power attacker should be alright. The issue seems to be maintaining the character's usefulness all the way through the build. I guess the Fighter4 Rogue4 Swash 5 PrC6 is probably the way to go. I really don't like the spiked chain, but I think I may have to take it. It makes more sense than a courtblade or something.
Hariman 09-08-07, 03:04 AM	I totally agree on all points. Thats why I am pulling my hair out. (The spear focus was purely for the longspear for diving charges...) However, I need to ensure the character doesn't rely on sneak attack for damage. I suppose a finessing power attacker should be alright. The issue seems to be maintaining the character's usefulness all the way through the build. I guess the Fighter4 Rogue4 Swash 5 PrC6 is probably the way to go. I really don't like the spiked chain, but I think I may have to take it. It makes more sense than a courtblade or something. You could always skip the level one "Spear Focus" and take a normal weapon focus. Or something like "Exotic Weapon Proficiency Elven Thinblade" The thinblade is one handed but there's no bar against power attack. So you could use a shield if a higher AC is needed. You could also skip the STR boost, but I wouldn't skip the Con boost if I were you. Also, using two spears, TWF and Two Weapon Pounce makes diving charges much more worthwhile. It still takes a decent number of feats though. And adding in Dragon Disciple 4 (minimum) is helpful. But it's still situational, requiring room to fly first and foremost. Hmmm. Let's see. 1 Fighter: Spear Focus/Dodge/Dragon Wings 2 Fighter: Con Boost 3 Fighter: Mobility 4 Fighter: STR boost 5 Fighter: Bupkus 6 Fighter: Spring Attack/Improved Dragon Wings At sixth level, you can spring attack into the air and diving charge in the next round. At 8th level, Weapon Specialization boost damage by 2 for normal attacks and 4 for diving charges. Ninth level adds another boost via Weapon Mastery. +2/+2 sounds nice, right? One valuable thing to do is take "Enlarge Person" as the Draconic Rite of Passage Spell Like ability. When you can use it, it is a useful boost to damage. One alternative is to skip out on the STR boost and take Power Attack instead. (or juggle the alternatives however you like.) Of course, for pure damage, going Barbarian3/Bard2/Dragon Disciple4 Fighter 6 and taking Reckless Rage (+6 STR during rage) after spending an action to light off an inspirational boosted bardsong at third level will probably produce the most bang (and party usefulness) for your buck. Power Attack, Reckless Rage, and the stat bumps from Dragon Disciple should provide a nice boost to damage. Of course, shoehorning Weapon Finesse in there and Spiked Chain Proficiency can't hurt.
copper_wyrmling 09-08-07, 10:49 AM	Frankly, if I was doing this, I'd be tempted to just use a pretty standard tank build rather than trying to play to the kobold's strengths - it just doesn't have that many if your purpose is to stand in the front taking and dishing out damage. It won't be as good as a human with the same build, but it should still be pretty effective. Also, I'd tweak the point-buy, unless you seriously expect the PC to get to L12 and beyond. Str 14 (16) Dex 16 (6) Con 12 (6) Int 8 Wis 8 Cha 8 Barbarian 3 / Fighter 4 / Pious Templar 4 / whatever L1: Barbarian - Extra Rage L2: Fighter - Combat Reflexes (use a reach weapon! it's the best way to get lots of attacks at low level, and with Str 18, they should actually hit and do some damage) L3: Fighter - Power Attack, +2 Con L4: Barbarian - uncanny dodge L5: Fighter L6: Barbarian - True Believer, trapsense (try to find an alternate class feature to replace this), retrain Combat Reflexes to Weapon Focus in your favorite weapon L7: Fighter - +2 Str L8: Pious Templar L9: Pious Templar - Reckless Rage L10: Pious Templar - Weapon Specialization L11: Pious Templar - Melee Weapon Mastery You can fill out the rest of the build from there. This entirely ignores pious templar spellcasting, using it purely as a means to get weapon spec / MWM and some other bennies while avoiding an XP penalty. At low levels, a reach weapon with combat reflexes gives you a lot of attacks as people come in, and Extra Rage makes them count (I've played this combo at baby levels and it's very effective); at higher levels, you won't be as good as someone playing a human (mostly because they have extra feats to play with, and don't need to spend so heavily in their point-buy to gain the same strength), but that seems like the price of deciding to play a specific race that doesn't make good stand-up fighters (you could also do a grey elf tank, but it'll never be as good as a human). If you don't want to rely on sneak attack for damage - and frankly, I've never seen a really good damage-dealer with high Dex / low Str and no sneak attack, power attack doesn't do enough to equalize the loss of Str bonus in the low levels - then I think something like this might be the best way to go. Some checks... At L1, Str 18 Dex 16 Con 16 while raging. Assuming a nonmasterwork weapon and nonmasterwork studded leather armor: +6 to hit (+4 Str +1 BAB +1 size), damage = weapon damage + 6 (i.e. 1d6+6 for a longspear, 1d8+6 for a glaive) HP = 15 AC = 16 (+3 armor +3 Dex +1 size +1 natural armor -2 rage). That's a pretty decent L1 tank - having played a Str-18 wood elf wannabe dervish through five levels where all his feats were dedicated to qualifying for dervish, believe me, Str 18 excuses a multitude of build issues at the baby levels. At L3, Str 18 Dex 16 Con 18 while raging. Assuming a +1 weapon and a chain shirt: +9 to hit (+4 Str +3 BAB +1 size +1 weapon) for 1d6+7 (assuming a longspear), with Power Attack and Combat Reflexes (four AoOs / round) HP = 36 AC = 17 At L6, much the same as L3, just add better equipment to the AC and weapon focus + BAB to the attacks, giving +13/+8 to hit with a +1 weapon (+4 Str +6 BAB +1 size +1 weapon +1 focus) HP = 68 At L9, Str 24 Dex 16 Con 20 while raging. Again, assuming a +1 weapon and before any stat-boosters, +18 / +13 to hit for 1d6+11 (with Power Attack) HP = 107 AC depends heavily on gear - it's 11 + armor bonus, basically, so +1 mithral full plate gives AC 20, a +1 chain shirt gives AC 16. You get what you pay for ;) At L11, assuming a +4 Str belt and +2 Con amulet by then, Str 28 Dex 16 Con 22 while raging, +24/+19/+14 to hit (BAB 11, Str 9, +3 MWM + WF, +1 size) for 1d6+18 with a basic +1 longspear HP = 140 The big weakness is if the Greyhawk Ruins mods break the normal LG pattern of at most three encounters / day, without your rage you're a lot less dangerous. Also, you have no skills and your Will save is not very good, but in a party that always adventures together, that's less of a problem. If you wanted more defences, you could take Mad Foam Rager instead of Reckless Rage. I can't be the only one who likes the idea of an angry little kobold barbarian ;) EDIT: As suggested by some other people, you could also do DD instead of Pious Templar if you don't mind losing BAB. You'd need to take some points from somewhere (Dex or Str) to boost Cha, then take a sorc level at some point and go into Dragon Disciple at L9. It loses you 2 BAB, you take Reckless Rage / Mad Foam Rager / Weapon Spec at L6 instead of True Believer, then pick up Melee Weapon Mastery at L9 or L12 (depending on whether you took WS or a rage feat at L6), and by L12 you have an extra +4 Str.
_metz_ 09-08-07, 07:38 PM	Ok, here is what I went with, in terms of a viable fighter. I REALLY wanted to keep the wings, as to me that was the whole point of playing a kobold. Stats: Str: 13 (17) Dex: 14 (12) Con: 12 (6) Int: (10) Wis: 8 Cha: 11 Lv1(Fighter)Dragon Wings, Weapon Focus (some decent weapon at small size, possibly Greatsword) Lv2(Kobold Fighter)+2 CON Lv3(Fighter)Power Attack* Lv4(Kobold Fighter)+2 STR, +1 STR <now am Str 16> Lv5(Fighter) Lv6(Fighter)Improved Dragon Wings, Weapon Specialisation Lv7(Sorceror) Lv8(Dragon Disciple) Lv9(Dragon Disciple) Improved Bullrush Lv10(Dragon Disciple) Lv11(Dragon Disciple) Lv12(Fighter)Melee Weapon Mastery +1 STR Lv13(Fighter) Shocktrooper Lv14(Fighter) Lv15(Fighter) Improved Flight, Improved Critical: Greatsword The build assumes mithral Breastplate, so I can fly with the bugger. WITHOUT ITEMS I am Str 16 at lvl 4, Str 22 at level 12. I like this build as it will be useful at low levels, and gets good after level 4. (when it starts to matter) Its not optimised, but hey, I want wings, and am a Kobold ;)
Mommy was an Orc 09-08-07, 08:20 PM	You're going to have nasty table variation with that build - Kobolds are considered Dragons in terms of all effects related to Race...
Hariman 09-08-07, 08:32 PM	You're going to have nasty table variation with that build - Kobolds are considered Dragons in terms of all effects related to Race... No, you shouldn't. Kobolds are "Humanoid (Dragonblooded, Reptilian)" they're humanoid with a subtype, not actually dragons. Now a Dragonwrought Kobold is a different matter entirely. Dragonwrought Kobolds gain the Dragon Type, and thus exclude themselves from Dragon Disciple/Dragon Devotee. Dang, who else wishes that Dragon Devotee were open?
Mommy was an Orc 09-08-07, 08:50 PM	No, you shouldn't. Kobolds are "Humanoid (Dragonblooded, Reptilian)" they're humanoid with a subtype, not actually dragons. And a couple of sentences later, they're treated as being dragons for all effects relating to race. Based on Stoneblessed from Races of Stone, all effects includes PrCs.
Hariman 09-08-07, 11:20 PM	And a couple of sentences later, they're treated as being dragons for all effects relating to race. Based on Stoneblessed from Races of Stone, all effects includes PrCs. But they are still HUMANOIDS. They are not listed as dragons.
Mommy was an Orc 09-09-07, 12:55 AM	But they are still HUMANOIDS. They are not listed as dragons. That's irrelevant. For all effects related to race, a kobold is considered a dragon. Even if they're not dragons, they're treated as being such for all effects. As a consequence(primary meaning of effect is consequence) of being a dragon is not qualifying for Dragon Disciple, neither do Kobolds.
Hariman 09-10-07, 12:52 AM	That's irrelevant. Even if they're not dragons, they're treated as being such for all effects. As a consequence(primary meaning of effect is consequence) of being a dragon is not qualifying for Dragon Disciple, neither do Kobolds. This must be why we're getting 4TH Edition D&D. However: "As a consequence(primary meaning of effect is consequence)" This doesn't make sense. Why does the primary meaning of effect come in here? And aren't "treated as being x for all effects" in D&D used for things like Bane Weaponry and magic item use? Because it's just insane to bar a reptilian humanoid with a little dragon blood in it from taking a class that many kobolds would aspire to take. Which would make many a Kobold build be so wildly table variable that you'd basically have to keep records for 2 different builds because table variation was THAT damn bad. Also, there is a mention that a Dragonblood character that gains the Dragon RACE/Type loses the dragonblood subtype, so there is a difference between the two.
_metz_ 09-10-07, 01:19 AM	Race does not = type. A Kobold's Type is NOT dragon. That is the interpretation of any DM I am likely to have the Kobold play under here, so I don't foresee it to be a problem. Kobolds are able to be Half Dragon, and so are able to take Dragon Disciple in LG precedent. (There are Half Dragon Kobolds in Existing Mods) Any DM that says otherwise is no DM that I would wish to play under, there is no supportive RAW arguement against it in LG.
Hariman 09-10-07, 02:21 AM	Race does not = type. A Kobold's Type is NOT dragon. That is the interpretation of any DM I am likely to have the Kobold play under here, so I don't foresee it to be a problem. Kobolds are able to be Half Dragon, and so are able to take Dragon Disciple in LG precedent. (There are Half Dragon Kobolds in Existing Mods) Any DM that says otherwise is no DM that I would wish to play under, there is no supportive RAW arguement against it in LG. So it sounds like you're going to go with a Dragon Disciple build. Have you made any final decisions yet?
_metz_ 09-10-07, 02:58 AM	So it sounds like you're going to go with a Dragon Disciple build. Have you made any final decisions yet? Probably the last build I posted. Whilst not _as_ effective at the high levels as the other builds, it is noticeably FAR more useful than at APls 2-6 than the other builds. As I am essentially keeping a party of Kobolds alive through Greyhawk ruins, I need to be useful at low levels!
copper_wyrmling 09-10-07, 10:33 AM	Probably the last build I posted. Whilst not _as_ effective at the high levels as the other builds, it is noticeably FAR more useful than at APls 2-6 than the other builds. As I am essentially keeping a party of Kobolds alive through Greyhawk ruins, I need to be useful at low levels! I think my build was more useful / powerful at low levels (unless Greyhawk Ruins plays like an adaptable instead of a normal LG mod, with lots of encounters / day), but it is entirely deficient in kobold flavor - have fun with your winged dragon kobold :)
_metz_ 09-10-07, 11:24 AM	I think my build was more useful / powerful at low levels (unless Greyhawk Ruins plays like an adaptable instead of a normal LG mod, with lots of encounters / day), but it is entirely deficient in kobold flavor - have fun with your winged dragon kobold :) Oh I definitely agree with that Copper. I came up with something almost exactly like it in another thread back when the cards were released. There was one issue with your build, the character would have had ALL of its skill points invested in knowledge religion, and ofc, common. This precluded any other meaningful PrC. I just felt that if I didn't get wings or SOMETHING funky, then what was the point... I would have no incentive to run one... Also, all of our Party has wings. That's cool. I mean seriously cool.
copper_wyrmling 09-10-07, 12:16 PM	Oh I definitely agree with that Copper. I came up with something almost exactly like it in another thread back when the cards were released. There was one issue with your build, the character would have had ALL of its skill points invested in knowledge religion, and ofc, common. This precluded any other meaningful PrC. True that ;) I just felt that if I didn't get wings or SOMETHING funky, then what was the point... I would have no incentive to run one... Also, all of our Party has wings. That's cool. I mean seriously cool. Yeah - not being interesting to play is a pretty fatal flaw in any PC concept :)
rutrow424 09-10-07, 04:29 PM	I think my build was more useful / powerful at low levels (unless Greyhawk Ruins plays like an adaptable instead of a normal LG mod, with lots of encounters / day), but it is entirely deficient in kobold flavor - have fun with your winged dragon kobold :) What diety would you have had your build be a PT of? The big problem for a kobold PT is that the weapons available are all blah (scimitar, heavy pick, scythe). I had decided to go the DD route until I scrapped the whole kobold idea unless I find need for a new PC next year.
copper_wyrmling 09-10-07, 04:58 PM	What diety would you have had your build be a PT of? The big problem for a kobold PT is that the weapons available are all blah (scimitar, heavy pick, scythe). I had decided to go the DD route until I scrapped the whole kobold idea unless I find need for a new PC next year. You can still worship human deities as a kobold (see the "entirely deficient in kobold flavor" comment ;) ) Follow Kord, or Kelanen, or Vathris if you want to use a longspear for reach and some kobold flavor. I can imagine a perpetually angry kobold worshipping the God of Lost Causes ;)
Mommy was an Orc 09-10-07, 07:44 PM	Kobolds are able to be Half Dragon, and so are able to take Dragon Disciple in LG precedent. (There are Half Dragon Kobolds in Existing Mods) There is no restriction on templates that say you can't have a half-dragon dragon - a half-orc is essentially a half-humanoid humanoid - a Half-Dragon Kobold is perfectly legal. There is however a restriction on Dragon Disciple, that your race cannot be dragon. For all effects, a kobold's race is considered to be dragon. And even if there was a Dragon Disciple Kobold in a current mod, that just means the mod writer doesn't know the current rules(as they changed in Races of the Dragon) Any DM that says otherwise is no DM that I would wish to play under, there is no supportive RAW arguement against it in LG. There's a clear cut RAW argument against it - that effect = consequence as its primary meaning. A consequence of being a dragon is that you cannot be a Dragon Disciple. The sentence 'an effect of being a dragon is that you cannot be a Dragon Disciple' is the same sentence. Now you can argue that that's not the intent of the word effect in D&D, and that might be a valid point, but you don't have a RAW argument to stand on unless you can show where they define the word effect to always mean something specific. And as I pointed out, Stoneblessed in Races of Stone uses the word effect in the exact way I'm using it. So you don't really have an intent argument either. Your argument really is that we should ignore both the common English meaning of Effect and a very similar example in 3.5. I'm not sure why a DM should feel hurt that you don't want to play with them.
_metz_ 09-10-07, 10:31 PM	ok, you are assuming that effect = prereq. Is a prereq an effect? what precedent are you citing for that? Can you please point me to which page we are talking about? As far as I know with effect is an ingame thing and type is an out of game thing. Unless there is something elsewhere I have seen. The Dragon Disicple prereq is: Race: Any nondragon The Kobold meets this prereq, but for IN GAME EFFECTS is treated as a Dragon. Races of The Dragon specifically state Dragonblooded creatures are Humanoids and NOT dragons several times. Hence the need for Dragonwrought to become the Dragon type. I would cite this as a massive indication of intent of the rules if any GM argued the earlier point. However, as per usual this issue has not been clarified by our friendly confusing WoTC people. as such, there is little we can do about it. Some Judges may see it your way, and normally I would steer of any build that would invite such variation, but I am running this Kobold through the arc at a home game, and with the end of LG, am not going to be playing it at many cons. (Playing the primaries) I never said a DM might be hurt if I say otherwise, but I would argue intent with them, specifically showing the dragonwrought feat. If the DM still saw fit to not allow it, then I would calmly play a different character, or seek the game in another slot.
rutrow424 09-11-07, 09:42 AM	You can still worship human deities as a kobold (see the "entirely deficient in kobold flavor" comment ;) ) Follow Kord, or Kelanen, or Vathris if you want to use a longspear for reach and some kobold flavor. I can imagine a perpetually angry kobold worshipping the God of Lost Causes ;) The kobold card specifies you have to worship Io, Bahamut, Aasterinian, or Chronopsis if you worship a diety. Otherwise, my proposed kobold build could have been a lot different.
copper_wyrmling 09-12-07, 02:41 AM	The kobold card specifies you have to worship Io, Bahamut, Aasterinian, or Chronopsis if you worship a diety. Otherwise, my proposed kobold build could have been a lot different. Really? I stand corrected then. (I do not actually have a kobold card yet - I may be getting one, but won't know until the packet makes its way back across the Pacific.)